Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550 - Page 61 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1801 of 2345 Old 08-12-2017, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by stoks4you View Post
No, the issue has been overblown. Completely.

I own the AV860 and it's an absolutely wonderful piece of equipment. The transparency of sound and detail is amazing and a huge huge upgrade over the Pioneer Elite I had before. I'm not saying that Arcam has got it right as far as where they've placed the BM. But for most people, the performance of the Arcam gear will be a fantastic experience.
"wonderful", "transparency", "detail". Have you ever compared both units in a blind test or are you one of those people that believe they aren't biased?

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I'm glad that guys like markus767 have the experience and the know how to identify and point out what can be improved, but this whole topic is starting to take on characteristics of a crusade. The issue is not going to be relevant to a good portion of potential buyers. I have full range LCR's and the BM issue is nonexistent for me.
And because it's nonexistent for you, it is nonexistent for everybody? What makes you think you would represent "a good portion of potential buyers"? Seems the crusader is you. I merely pointed out bugs. Facts. I don't make claims I can't prove.

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There are rumors that Arcam is working to change the order of BM. I hope that turns out to be true...Not because I believe it will "revolutionize" the sound, but because it will eliminate the topic from discussion of what is a great piece of AV gear.
How can something be "a great piece of AV gear" if it has severe bugs? Or is this the hole in you wallet talking?

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Originally Posted by stoks4you View Post
Again...to the individuals who have identified the issues related to order of BM, this is not an attack on your efforts. I applaud your expertise. We just need some balance and proper context here.
Exactly.

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post #1802 of 2345 Old 08-12-2017, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
"wonderful", "transparency", "detail". Have you ever compared both units in a blind test or are you one of those people that believe they aren't biased?



And because it's nonexistent for you, it is nonexistent for everybody? What makes you think you would represent "a good portion of potential buyers"? Seems the crusader is you. I merely pointed out bugs. Facts. I don't make claims I can't prove.



How can something be "a great piece of AV gear" if it has severe bugs? Or is this the hole in you wallet talking?



Exactly.
Your emotionally charged response is exactly what I referenced as a crusade.

Carry on...
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post #1803 of 2345 Old 08-12-2017, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by stoks4you View Post
Your emotionally charged response is exactly what I referenced as a crusade.

Carry on...
Hmmm Markus just states the facts with supporting evidence. You on the other hand use flowery adjectives like an add campaign for Arcam.
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post #1804 of 2345 Old 08-12-2017, 02:25 PM
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Hmmm Markus just states the facts with supporting evidence. You on the other hand use flowery adjectives like an add campaign for Arcam.
It's crazy that people keep popping in here attempting to downplay such a fundamental issue. Reminds me of Arcam tech support and their silly attempts to rationalize their mistake .

Accept the incontrovertible reality of the situation and continue to pester Arcam for a fix.
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post #1805 of 2345 Old 08-12-2017, 02:34 PM
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I have been told on a few occasions that the proper order of BM has already been implemented in the Dirac Live calibration in an updated firmware and has been thourghly tested. Apparently, Dolby Vision has been added as well and it is now just a matter of Dolby approving before it is released.
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post #1806 of 2345 Old 08-12-2017, 09:13 PM
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Hmmm Markus just states the facts with supporting evidence. You on the other hand use flowery adjectives like an add campaign for Arcam.
Being snide or defensive, doesn't add to the discussion.

What facts are you referring to? That the order of BM in Arcam's version of Dirac is questionable...wrong? Who's arguing against this? Not I.

It's one thing to point out that the order of BM is wrong...(in some cases). It's another to make a claim that their AVRs are "broken" or not fit for consumer use. The problem I have with the nature of this discussion is that its impact has been OVERSTATED. Specifically, in my case it's a non-issue since my LCR's are full range. The "broken" Dirac doesn't affect me or anyone else utilizing the same full range setting.

Instead of just pointing out the problem and receiving due praise for identifying the issue, it's been elevated to the point of a crusade with ridiculous hyperbole. There are a number of professional reviews out on these Arcam AV's and AVR's and they pretty much all praise the quality of sound and internal components used in manufacturing. Even if you chose not to make use of Dirac Live on these AV's, their sound quality would compare favorably to other options available near the same price point and would provide an extremely satisfying listening experience.

I can tell you with certainty that my AV860 sounds magnificent. It has from the moment I first turned it on and prior to me implementing the "broken" Dirac Live. After properly calibrating Dirac, the sound improved dramatically still.

Keep in mind, I'm no shill for Arcam. The only piece of equipment I own of theirs is the AV860, and it's literally one of the most inexpensive components in my system. I couldn't care less what brand of AV you prefer. I feel no need to take this topic personally and I'm not invested financially or emotionally enough to feel compelled to patrol this thread and respond to every post that questions Arcam's quality or is supportive of it.

This thread just needs balance. And, for those that are considering the Arcam...it's more than worthy of a listen.
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post #1807 of 2345 Old 08-12-2017, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by stoks4you View Post
Being snide or defensive, doesn't add to the discussion.

What facts are you referring to? That the order of BM in Arcam's version of Dirac is questionable...wrong? Who's arguing against this? Not I.

It's one thing to point out that the order of BM is wrong...(in some cases). It's another to make a claim that their AVRs are "broken" or not fit for consumer use. The problem I have with the nature of this discussion is that its impact has been OVERSTATED. Specifically, in my case it's a non-issue since my LCR's are full range. The "broken" Dirac doesn't affect me or anyone else utilizing the same full range setting.

Instead of just pointing out the problem and receiving due praise for identifying the issue, it's been elevated to the point of a crusade with ridiculous hyperbole. There are a number of professional reviews out on these Arcam AV's and AVR's and they pretty much all praise the quality of sound and internal components used in manufacturing. Even if you chose not to make use of Dirac Live on these AV's, their sound quality would compare favorably to other options available near the same price point and would provide an extremely satisfying listening experience.

I can tell you with certainty that my AV860 sounds magnificent. It has from the moment I first turned it on and prior to me implementing the "broken" Dirac Live. After properly calibrating Dirac, the sound improved dramatically still.

Keep in mind, I'm no shill for Arcam. The only piece of equipment I own of theirs is the AV860, and it's literally one of the most inexpensive components in my system. I couldn't care less what brand of AV you prefer. I feel no need to take this topic personally and I'm not invested financially or emotionally enough to feel compelled to patrol this thread and respond to every post that questions Arcam's quality or is supportive of it.

This thread just needs balance. And, for those that are considering the Arcam...it's more than worthy of a listen.
I am not being defensive at all, just stating the facts. You would rather speak with subjective marketing drool describing your experience in your room with your bias. I own the 550 which currently is broken with regards to any dirac live calibration, this is fact that has been substaniated with measurements. Anybody that purchases an Arcam with Dirac is buying a broken, severly flawed piece of audio equipment.
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post #1808 of 2345 Old 08-12-2017, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by HTPCat View Post
I am not being defensive at all, just stating the facts. You would rather speak with subjective marketing drool describing your experience in your room with your bias. I own the 550 which currently is broken with regards to any dirac live calibration, this is fact that has been substaniated with measurements. Anybody that purchases an Arcam with Dirac is buying a broken, severly flawed piece of audio equipment.
Thanks for the post. Really, I couldn't have asked for a better example of what I was talking about.

I hope your fortune improves. But, I'm sure that's my subjective marketing drool talking through my personal bias.
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post #1809 of 2345 Old 08-12-2017, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by stoks4you View Post
Thanks for the post. Really, I couldn't have asked for a better example of what I was talking about.

I hope your fortune improves. But, I'm sure that's my subjective marketing drool talking through my personal bias.
Oh don't let me stop you from your crusade to convince yourself that you made a wonderful purchase. This is a Science forum yet you have not provided one scientific piece of evidence to support your audiofool nonsense.
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post #1810 of 2345 Old 08-12-2017, 09:53 PM
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I've had a AVR600 for 5 years, very pleased with it. The room EQ at the time was pretty good. The 600 created a very seamless surround bubble. Then i could swap it for an 850. Long story short, with Dirac it does sound AWESOME. It's really that good. If i had kwown, i would traded up sooner.



The 850 with Dirac surprises me every time i turn it on, its extreme dynamic, clear and vibrant, the speakers dissappear so to speak. The surround bubble is extreme. You can literally stand up, and walk around to the place the sound comes from, even if that is between a front and a rear speaker. Amazing. Also for CD it's much, much better then the 600. The 850 creates a massive, livelike, extremely dynamic soundstage in surround and in stereo.



Dirac's measurement renders my expensive Velodyne DD15 useless, since it can analyze and correct the room much better then Velodyne's built in analyzer can.



Apart from a few DVD tracks where it looks like the 850 incorrectly handles bass output, it's really an amazing machine. I think the issues with BM and Dirac that can be read here are a bit overrated and blown out of proportion.


If you read my post I said I have had a DDRC-88A which correctly implements Dirac correcting the 30-100 Hz zone where I have huge problems.

No way can the Arcam correct that in a satisfying way in my case... and the good thing Dirac does if correctly applied is correcting no matter what speakers you have, no matter what room you have.

If you have already a room with or without treatments that are good without Dirac being applied, than it will be better with it, even with the Arcam wrong implementation, but with the correct one, it will sound BEST.

And by the way, with the DDRC-88A there are not "a few DVD tracks where it looks like the 850 incorrectly handles bass output". You don't seem to understand what Dirac does and why it is a revolution in room equalization for any room and any speakers.




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post #1811 of 2345 Old 08-12-2017, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by stoks4you View Post
Specifically, in my case it's a non-issue since my LCR's are full range. The "broken" Dirac doesn't affect me or anyone else utilizing the same full range setting.

Well, people that don't have an Arcam also aren't affected by the "broken" Dirac either...

I must have missed the part in the Arcam's manual were it states that you must have large, full range speakers...


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post #1812 of 2345 Old 08-12-2017, 11:27 PM
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Just let me "exaggerate" the situation somewhat from my point of view:

"Strange" enough that those people defending Arcam and its faulty Dirac implementation come up on so many forums now.

They have been offended (and probably hurt ?), because they spent a lot of money thinking, they would proudly get "the best" they can in AVR business and utilizing the "best" room EQ (Dirac) one was supposed to get, buying Arcam, a not to so common boutique brand without realizing that Arcam just didn't deliver, because they (Arcam) messed up some crucial part of the equation how Dirac has to be implemented properly to work to its full potential. May be a "first time" implementation error but still a (proven) bug. This causes a diminishing "glamour factor" for those if they try to "brag" with their "toy"...
.. and it probably caused some (significant ?) drop in resale value for those units concerned, if one did consider this...

There is no sense in arguing with them, because most of them just don't get it, thinking: "I turn it on, it works and I hear sound. How can it be wrong if Arcam states its fine. I trust them. Always !"
From there it usually goes round... and round... and round...

Reading through several threads here and elsewhere it looks to me, as if Arcam sales took a hit with diminishing sales after those problems have come up on several forums around the world. Being a rather small British company with only 35 employees (and may be a not so strong financial background) this might have been one of the final triggers why the sale of the business to Harman International (now a Samsung company) has just happened. But Harman probably got a good deal ...

PS.: ...and I know that many published reports / reviews have "praised" Arcam for delivering a "superior" product. The question is, why haven't they discovered any of the proven flaws mentioned in their (paid or otherwise funded ?) reviews ? And strange again that Arcam has tried to "resolve" those flaws by new firmware versions again and again, although they were really "non-existent" as stated ?
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post #1813 of 2345 Old 08-12-2017, 11:50 PM
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Reading through several threads here and elsewhere it looks to me, as if Arcam sales took a hit with diminishing sales after those problems have come up on several forums around the world. Being a rather small British company with only 35 employees (and may be a not strong financial background) this might have been one of the final triggers why the sale of the business to Harman International, now a Samsung company, has just happened. Harman probably got a good deal ...
If that's the case they could have easily circumvented such a situation simply by different and better communication. At no point they ever said they would change signal flow. Instead they had their support make ridiculous and false statements which made matters even worse.
Some users report that there is already a new firmware that fixes Dirac Live implementation. But instead of releasing it asap they added other features that seem to require a very long certification process before the firmware can be released.
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post #1814 of 2345 Old 08-13-2017, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by stoks4you View Post
There are a number of professional reviews out on these Arcam AV's and AVR's and they pretty much all praise the quality of sound and internal components used in manufacturing.
Did any of those "professional" reviews look at how and if the unit actually works as it should? You give credibility to publications that don't deserve any. The relationship between AV magazines/professional reviewers and manufacturers is best described by "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine".
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post #1815 of 2345 Old 08-13-2017, 04:26 AM
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Reading through several threads here and elsewhere it looks to me bla bla bla
I wonder, have you ever owned a 550 or 850 or 860? Or have you ever listened to it? Did you ever perform a setup and analysis using Dirac with it? Or did you just read about it?
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post #1816 of 2345 Old 08-13-2017, 05:03 AM
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I wonder, have you ever owned a 550 or 850 or 860? Or have you ever listened to it? Did you ever perform a setup and analysis using Dirac with it? Or did you just read about it?
Does it matter?
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post #1817 of 2345 Old 08-13-2017, 05:19 AM
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Does it matter?
... *speechless*
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post #1818 of 2345 Old 08-13-2017, 05:39 AM
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... *speechless*
He made a comment based on the evidence presented in this thread. Furthermore he commented on how a lot of people react once the value of their favorite toys is questioned. Again, why would he need to be a owner of that toy before he's allowed to offer his opinion?
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post #1819 of 2345 Old 08-13-2017, 07:04 AM
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Again, why would he need to be a owner of that toy before he's allowed to offer his opinion?
Because he doesn't want any positive reactions from actual owners 'because they are biased' while actual owners who claim there is a problem, are not biased? Right. He doesn't want a discussion at all. He wants to provoke. That makes him, much like you by calling this device a toy, a troll.
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post #1820 of 2345 Old 08-13-2017, 08:13 AM
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Because he doesn't want any positive reactions from actual owners 'because they are biased' while actual owners who claim there is a problem, are not biased? Right. He doesn't want a discussion at all. He wants to provoke. That makes him, much like you by calling this device a toy, a troll.
You certainly seem to be offended by what was said but that doesn't make everybody else a troll. If it helps, you can call any and all my home theater devices "toys" because that's what they are. I don't need them for survival.

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post #1821 of 2345 Old 08-13-2017, 12:15 PM
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Nope. You have the wrong order of components just as Arcam does.
Nope, your wrong on that cause with BM after Dirac i have a working BM when i calibrate.

If i have the Nano with Dirac last i dont get any BM at all while calibrating.
It looks to me thats how the Arcam is built cause there is no BM when you calibrate?

Anyway im happy with Dirac
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Originally Posted by chrisdack View Post
On pc reverse the order of your sound card with the bass mgmt and send into the virtual Dirac sound card.
On nanoavr it reportedly already follows the same design pattern as arcam so if you had an issue you would hear it (at least according to the configuration pages on the nanoavr website where same people in this thread complained about the sane problem on that thread).
Only minidsp 88 has it correct according to some views.

I'm waiting for my callback from arcam.

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I only had the trial on Pc and did my testing with Asio and with Nano avr with BM.
Now i have two Nano avr, one handles dirac and the other BM.
And as i said before you need to have BM after DL in a setup like this otherwise you gonna calibrate without any BM at all.
So in order to be able to have BM first the sweap generator has to be Before BM and then dirac calibration tool can be last.
But the sweap generator is a part of the calibration tool (on a chip?)
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post #1823 of 2345 Old 08-13-2017, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by HTPCat View Post
I have been told on a few occasions that the proper order of BM has already been implemented in the Dirac Live calibration in an updated firmware and has been thourghly tested. Apparently, Dolby Vision has been added as well and it is now just a matter of Dolby approving before it is released.
If that is true, I will put my Anthem up for sale or move it downstairs and by an Arcam unit. This gives me time to figure out some lame excuse to tell the wife. That is really great news - hope its true.
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post #1824 of 2345 Old 08-13-2017, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Johan b-lund View Post
Nope, your wrong on that cause with BM after Dirac i have a working BM when i calibrate.

If i have the Nano with Dirac last i dont get any BM at all while calibrating.
It looks to me thats how the Arcam is built cause there is no BM when you calibrate?

Anyway im happy with Dirac
You got it backwards. The topic has been extensively discussed in this thread. Please start reading at post 666.
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post #1825 of 2345 Old 08-13-2017, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Johan b-lund View Post
Nope, your wrong on that cause with BM after Dirac i have a working BM when i calibrate.

If i have the Nano with Dirac last i dont get any BM at all while calibrating.
It looks to me thats how the Arcam is built cause there is no BM when you calibrate?

Anyway im happy with Dirac
Sorry, no. The correction is for the speaker not the channel and, therefore, BM must precede Dirac.
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post #1826 of 2345 Old 08-13-2017, 09:22 PM
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Sorry, no. The correction is for the speaker not the channel and, therefore, BM must precede Dirac.
So if i have fronts that are going down to 30hz but gonna have a xo at 80hz and i do the calibration without any BM i would not have any issues?
There you have the exact same issue as Arcam, if Dirac see a null at 40hz in one of the fronts BM gonna send the correction to the sub.
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post #1827 of 2345 Old 08-13-2017, 10:06 PM
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So if i have fronts that are going down to 30hz but gonna have a xo at 80hz and i do the calibration without any BM i would not have any issues?
There you have the exact same issue as Arcam, if Dirac see a null at 40hz in one of the fronts BM gonna send the correction to the sub.
You dont understand the process. When you run the calibration/measurements all channels are measured full range. Filters are established based on the measurements. This includes the lfe (sub) channel. When you engage dirac (turn it on) if you engage filters before BM (xover) you will have the low frequencies for say the left front speaker with the left front speaker filter being sent to your sub. Of course this isn't correct, so when we finally got Arcam to notice, they changed the calibration/measurement process to engage BM if you are using a xover so that it measures with sub + speaker. This creates another set of problems because we cant set the levels or distances manually before measuring which means that we most likely have comb filtering occurring on the low frequencies. If you read this thread beginning at post 666 it is all explained and has measurements to show what is taking place.

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post #1828 of 2345 Old 08-13-2017, 10:14 PM
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So if i have fronts that are going down to 30hz but gonna have a xo at 80hz and i do the calibration without any BM i would not have any issues?
There you have the exact same issue as Arcam, if Dirac see a null at 40hz in one of the fronts BM gonna send the correction to the sub.
Based on my explanation if you have BM before Dirac filters the low frequencies from below 80hz would be sent to sub channel and then the filter for the sub would be engaged which is proper method. If you have Dirac filters engaged first then the frequencies below 80hz would have their individual speaker filters applied and then bm would send it to the sub thus having say your left front speaker filter sent to your sub this would never be right.

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post #1829 of 2345 Old 08-14-2017, 12:45 AM
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I have been told on a few occasions that the proper order of BM has already been implemented in the Dirac Live calibration in an updated firmware and has been thourghly tested. Apparently, Dolby Vision has been added as well and it is now just a matter of Dolby approving before it is released.
Dolby Vision *and* HLG pass through already works. So if there is already a firmware for bm not being release it's not because of that.
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post #1830 of 2345 Old 08-14-2017, 01:35 AM
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Dolby Vision *and* HLG pass through already works. So if there is already a firmware for bm not being release it's not because of that.
My guess is it may work but it's not official per se, Arcam probably want a shiny Dolby Vision logo on their website
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