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post #3061 of 3403 Old 02-02-2017, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
The first two already are, as:
1) A DTS:X soundtrack is made using objects (MDA), and
2) Adding wides to a 7.1.2 config will activate its up mixer.
I'm looking forward to try this out, wasn't expecting the wides to be used in DTS:X.

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post #3062 of 3403 Old 02-02-2017, 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
"off" how?
"Off" as in "not active", as the renderer would only extract the embedded objects from the 7.1 channel bed to put them back from where they came from. I used this example merely to point out that you do not necessarily need a playback object renderer to enjoy the increased spatial resolution of a soundtrack that is re-recorder/mixed using object based technology.

And that 'someone' said it right , as @baptig did.

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post #3063 of 3403 Old 02-02-2017, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Noting that this only applies to the 2015 major brand models as Front Wide support was dropped on all major brand 2016 models.
That makes that decision a slap in the face of both home Atmos and DTS:X.
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post #3064 of 3403 Old 02-02-2017, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
"off" how?
"Off" as in the TrueHD decoder is activated (to unpack the losslessly packed audio) but the Atmos decoder isn't active (no need to unpack objects). TrueHD has a nested structure: inside the Atmos mix is a 7.1 mix, inside the 7.1 mix is a 5.1 mix, inside the 5.1 mix is a 2.0 mix. So if you have a 5.1-speaker layout, only the 5.1-channel mix is decoded. No need to waste resources decoding 7.1 channels and objects only to then downmix to 5.1 when there already is a 5.1 mix nested inside. Atmos decoding never has to turn on.

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post #3065 of 3403 Old 02-02-2017, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
As a reminder, the new DTS:X Dialog Control feature on 2015 and 2016 DTS:X capable AVRs can be enabled when playing the 2016 DTS:X Demo Disc – “All Around Us” clip.
That DTS:X demo disc also has a song by Holly Miranda with her vocals as a separate object. Testing it on a Denon 4300, the adjustment range was -12dB to +12dB, even thought the manual says the range is from 0dB to +6dB.

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post #3066 of 3403 Old 02-02-2017, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Noting that this only applies to the 2015 major brand models as Front Wide support was dropped on all major brand 2016 models.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
That makes that decision a slap in the face of both home Atmos and DTS:X.


Although forthcoming immersive audio codec Dolby AC-4 retains front wide speakers (FLw|FRw) for both input and presentation configuration (speaker layout) use, they appear in only two speaker configurations. Recommendation ITU-R BS.2051-0 channel|speaker layout H (AC-4 Channel layout 22.2) is presumably included [only] to support the next generation Japanese TV system, but AC-4 Channel layout 7.Xa has no obvious equivalent Rec. ITU-R BS.2051-0 channel|speaker layout?!


Source: ETSI TS 103 190-2 V1.1.1 (2015-09) Digital Audio Compression (AC-4) Standard Part 2: Immersive and personalized audio (link)


Other pertinent documents:

Recommendation ITU-R BS.2051-0 (02/2014) Advanced sound system for programme production (link)

ETSI TS 103 190 V1.1.1 (2014-04) Digital Audio Compression (AC-4) Standard (link)


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post #3067 of 3403 Old 02-02-2017, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
"Off" as in the TrueHD decoder is activated (to unpack the losslessly packed audio) but the Atmos decoder isn't active (no need to unpack objects). TrueHD has a nested structure: inside the Atmos mix is a 7.1 mix, inside the 7.1 mix is a 5.1 mix, inside the 5.1 mix is a 2.0 mix. So if you have a 5.1-speaker layout, only the 5.1-channel mix is decoded. No need to waste resources decoding 7.1 channels and objects only to then downmix to 5.1 when there already is a 5.1 mix nested inside. Atmos decoding never has to turn on.
Oh yes, indeed correct I knew that part. I thought "off" was meaning "out of kilter" in some way, glad it wasn't.
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post #3068 of 3403 Old 02-02-2017, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
That DTS:X demo disc also has a song by Holly Miranda with her vocals as a separate object. Testing it on a Denon 4300, the adjustment range was -12dB to +12dB, even thought the manual says the range is from 0dB to +6dB.

If you have not had the opportunity to do so in the past, please try the following experiment: disable all speakers except FL, [FC,] FR, and turn off any DSP that 'might' generate virtual immersion|height processing. Does the DTS:X demo disc still play in DTS:X with vocals as a separate user controllable object? Thanks!



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post #3069 of 3403 Old 02-02-2017, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
- DTS:X has a limitless number of objects available in the re-recording process
That's a pretty useless "advantage" considering that (1) Atmos can do 100+ objects in the re-recording process, so both are already in the "more than enough" range, and (2) for PLAYBACK at home DTS:X is far more limited in how many objects it can reproduce than Atmos. So far most DTS:X mixes -- even if object-based initially -- have been rendered to a 7.1.4 channel layout for home use. Not so with Atmos.
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post #3070 of 3403 Old 02-02-2017, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
That DTS:X demo disc also has a song by Holly Miranda with her vocals as a separate object. Testing it on a Denon 4300, the adjustment range was -12dB to +12dB, even thought the manual says the range is from 0dB to +6dB.
This isn't meant to be db, however, correctly shows as 0-6 on a X6300H.
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post #3071 of 3403 Old 02-03-2017, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
That's a pretty useless "advantage" considering that (1) Atmos can do 100+ objects in the re-recording process, so both are already in the "more than enough" range,
I guess that's a fair statement at this point in time.

Quote:
and (2) for PLAYBACK at home DTS:X is far more limited in how many objects it can reproduce than Atmos.
My current understanding is that starting with 7.1.4 bed channels, when adding additional speakers the DTS:X up mixer effectively replaces the playback object rendering, resulting in equal spatial resolution of re-recorded objects. As such, DTS:X only needs actual object rendering for objects that need to be user-adjustable, or are placed outside the '7.1.4 sound bubble', like below the screen.
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post #3072 of 3403 Old 02-03-2017, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
Although forthcoming immersive audio codec Dolby AC-4 retains front wide speakers (FLw|FRw) for both input and presentation configuration (speaker layout) use, they appear in only two speaker configurations.
Looks like they are replaced by Lsc/Rsc speakers in the 9.x.x configurations. Those speakers are supposed to be positioned at (just outside?) the edges of the screen, effectively between fronts and wides position. I would call them "narrow wides", and welcome them back! EDIT: Not correct!

BTW: I have no clue what Vhl/Vhr speakers are, can't find any reference in named docs...


EDIT: On futher study - following the suggestions made by @SoundChex - the AC-4 Lsc/Rsc speakers are actually positioned in-between L/R and C channels, more comparable to the ATMOS Lcenter and Rcenter (Lc/Rc) speakers (BTW: It seems like there has been a mix-up in the ATMOS nomenclature between Lc/Rc and Lsc/Rsc, as the latter would more logically be placed closer to the screen edge than to the center, and vice versa). That means that in the AC-4 codec not the Lsc/Rsc, but the L/R speakers seem to be handed over the role of "narrow wides". In this context it is worth mentioning that the allowable azimuth range for L/R speakers can extend from 30 to 45 (or in some configs even up to 60) degrees. It seems the AC-4 front stage (between -60 to +60 degrees azimuth) is not always compatible with with the current ATMOS speaker lay-out. Are we looking at yet another immersive format with its own specific speaker placement requirements?

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post #3073 of 3403 Old 02-03-2017, 07:44 AM
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post #3074 of 3403 Old 02-03-2017, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
That's a pretty useless "advantage" considering that (1) Atmos can do 100+ objects in the re-recording process, so both are already in the "more than enough" range, and (2) for PLAYBACK at home DTS:X is far more limited in how many objects it can reproduce than Atmos. So far most DTS:X mixes -- even if object-based initially -- have been rendered to a 7.1.4 channel layout for home use. Not so with Atmos.
Not to mention that all the SFX and music elements are all "objects" and start out on a project timeline on some editing suite where the capacity for these "objects" or elements is at minimum 999 or more.
@FilmMixer Can you imagine working on a sequence where you had to keep track of over 900 different isolated objects at one time? Lol! Even one hundred sounds a bit much to think about.
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post #3075 of 3403 Old 02-03-2017, 10:11 AM
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Speaker assignment vs. processing

A question regarding all the different elevation level speaker assignments.

Does anyone know how DTS:X processing (and Atmos for that matter) changes, or at all, with certain elevation speaker assignments?

For example, the marantz 8802a offers options for either Side Heights or Rear Heights. Is this just semantics (i.e. They receive the same signal) or does this setting impact what is delivered to the speaker?

More broadly, are there certain designations that are only semantically different and others that are fundamentally different?

In my MX160, they offer a ton of elevations options, except only Side Heights - no Rear Heights. Physically mine are in the rear (gee, that doesn't sound right...)

Thanks for any clarity on this...

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post #3076 of 3403 Old 02-03-2017, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
I would call them "narrow wides", and welcome them back!
Surely they'd be "narrows".

Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
BTW: I have no clue what Vhl/Vhr speakers are, can't find any reference in named docs...
Very high left/right?

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post #3077 of 3403 Old 02-03-2017, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
My current understanding is that starting with 7.1.4 bed channels, when adding additional speakers the DTS:X up mixer effectively replaces the playback object rendering, resulting in equal spatial resolution of re-recorded objects. As such, DTS:X only needs actual object rendering for objects that need to be user-adjustable, or are placed outside the '7.1.4 sound bubble', like below the screen.
You really think that rendering an object-based master to a 7.1.4 discrete channel based output, and then counting on the Neural:X upmixer to re-extract phantom imaging for in-between speakers (if the speaker count exceeds 7.1.4), is an equivalent replacement to actually having the objects (as home Atmos does)?

If you're going to credit DTS:X for having unlimited objects on the re-recording side of the production chain as an "advantage" vs Atmos, surely you must also credit Atmos's advantage in having a lot more objects available for home use on the playback side of the chain. I'm not buying the "equal spatial resolution" argument for high speaker count setups.
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post #3078 of 3403 Old 02-03-2017, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
I have no clue what Vhl/Vhr speakers are, can't find any reference in named docs...

In some [older] versions of immersive audio nomenclature, I believe Vhl|Vhr stood for Vertical Height Left|Right--more likely referenced in this thread as Height Front Left|Right (HFL|HFR) channels|speakers.

So we might consider AC-4 Channel layouts 7.Xa and 7.Xc as “equivalent to” DTS-HDMA 7.1 Configuration 6 - Front Wide and DTS-HDMA 7.1 Configuration 4 - Front Height, respectively, or their Audyssey DSX cognates.

This might permit certain older AVRs equipped with only DTS Neo:X and|or Audyssey DSX to receive 7.1 LPCM content in one of these two configurations output from an AC-4 decoder...?


DTS-HDMA 7.1 Configuration 6 - Front Wide



DTS-HDMA 7.1 Configuration 4 - Front Height



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post #3079 of 3403 Old 02-03-2017, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
Looks like [front wide speakers (FLw|FRw)] are replaced by Lsc/Rsc speakers in the 9.x.x configurations. Those speakers are supposed to be positioned at (just outside?) the edges of the screen, effectively between fronts and wides position. I would call them "narrow wides", and welcome them back!

In the mixing studio, front left|right speakers (L|R) might be close to the sides of the screen, while in multiple home theaters many different size displays could be placed between front left|right speakers which are the same distance apart. Left|Right screen edge channels (Lscr|Rscr) are supposed to ensure 'on screen' sounds remain within the confines of the display, regardless of its size, while other sounds--across the complete front sound stage--are delivered by the front left|right channels.

However, it's likely screen edge speakers will NOT be installed in most home theaters, in that case screen edge channel content must be reproduced through the L|C|R speakers. To do this correctly, the setup procedures for an AC-4 decoder will require entering the distance between the front left|right speakers, and the size of the display...?!

========

This could open up a new market for Artison . . . offering their 2-enclosures L|C|R attach-to-HDTV speakers in the Lscr|C|Rscr speakers role...?



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post #3080 of 3403 Old 02-05-2017, 05:01 AM
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Instead of special speakers to widen the stage I simply will keep using my wides and loving them

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post #3081 of 3403 Old 02-06-2017, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
You really think that rendering an object-based master to a 7.1.4 discrete channel based output, and then counting on the Neural:X upmixer to re-extract phantom imaging for in-between speakers (if the speaker count exceeds 7.1.4), is an equivalent replacement to actually having the objects (as home Atmos does)?
In terms of "getting the same spatial resolution of an individual sound"? Yes I do.

Imagine a sound object phantomized right in-between two adjacent speakers A and C. To increase the spatial resolution of that sound we now add a speaker B right in-between A and C. The Atmos object renderer does no longer pan-pot this sound over A and C, but sends its full signal to speaker B. The DTS:X up mixer extracts the sound from both speaker A and C, and sends it to speaker B. Other method, same result. And this same up-mixing process can be repeated with every additional speaker added.

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post #3082 of 3403 Old 02-08-2017, 03:28 AM
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Just watched Bourne.. rather bleah DTS-X title.. almost as bland as the American Ultra..
DTS has got to get some really solid titles with good soundtracks... Atmos is running circles around them..
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post #3083 of 3403 Old 02-08-2017, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
Just watched Bourne.. rather bleah DTS-X title.. almost as bland as the American Ultra..
DTS has got to get some really solid titles with good soundtracks... Atmos is running circles around them..
I agree, Atmos mixes are more aggressive so far. I have had better luck with Neural DTS X on older DTS HD material. Seven blu ray was a really great up conversion. Lots of added atmosphere to an already frightening flic...

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'3:10 to Yuma' to be released on 4K UHD on May 2nd with brand new a DTS:X mix.

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post #3085 of 3403 Old 02-22-2017, 06:39 PM
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'3:10 to Yuma' to be released on 4K UHD on May 2nd with brand new a DTS:X mix.
Wow, I can't wait to see Glenn Ford in 4K UHD glory!

Seriously, as remakes go this one is extraordinarily good. It is from director James Mangold, who has the distinction of having written and directed the memorable Cop Land (1997)--the only film (IMO) in which Sylvester Stallone turned in a stellar performance in the leading role holding his own next to such illustrious co-stars as Robert De Niro and Harvey Keitel. Both movies bear repeated viewings.
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post #3086 of 3403 Old 02-23-2017, 07:25 AM
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It is from director James Mangold, who...
Who has directed Angelina Jolie and Reese Witherspoon to the only Oscars they've won. No surprise he was able to pull a good performance out of Stallone. Mangold's latest movie, Logan, comes out next month.

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post #3087 of 3403 Old 02-23-2017, 09:37 AM
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Wow, I can't wait to see Glenn Ford in 4K UHD glory!

Seriously, as remakes go this one is extraordinarily good. It is from director James Mangold, who has the distinction of having written and directed the memorable Cop Land (1997)--the only film (IMO) in which Sylvester Stallone turned in a stellar performance in the leading role holding his own next to such illustrious co-stars as Robert De Niro and Harvey Keitel. Both movies bear repeated viewings.


Maybe I need to watch Cop Land again, didn't like it at all the first time. Stallone was a big, whiny puss and it felt like they crammed in a bunch of big names to help boost a weak script. It's been since '97 when I saw it last so I'll try it out again some day and see.


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post #3088 of 3403 Old 02-23-2017, 11:17 AM
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Maybe I need to watch Cop Land again, didn't like it at all the first time. Stallone was a big, whiny puss and it felt like they crammed in a bunch of big names to help boost a weak script. It's been since '97 when I saw it last so I'll try it out again some day and see.
Tastes differ, so you may well judge the movie not to your liking, but I see no justification for calling the script weak. Quite the contrary, in fact; I thought the screenplay was extremely well written with great dialogue, excellent character development, subtle plotting, and a Mamet-like ear for local color. I won't tab it great cinema, but it ranks high on my list of memorable police dramas.

Of course, if you were looking for a Rambo-like Stallone superhero caper movie, then you would have to have been disappointed. Nonetheless, you would be hard-pressed to find a movie where Stallone had better dialogue or delivered it nearly as well.
Spoiler!
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post #3089 of 3403 Old 02-24-2017, 08:26 AM
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'Patriots Day' (Mark Wahlberg starrer about the Boston Marathon bombings) announced for release March 28th with DTS:X mix on both UHD and BD. So that makes seven (count 'em, 7) DTS:X titles releasing on one day (3/28/17), including two Fast & Furious movies and four Harry Potter movies.
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post #3090 of 3403 Old 02-24-2017, 08:41 AM
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'The Mummy Ultimate Trilogy' (The Mummy, The Mummy Returns, The Mummy: Tomb of the Dragon Emperor) coming to 4K UHD on May 16th, all three with new DTS:X mixes. The format seems to have found its niche (catalogue titles).
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