Beyond 7.1.4... Multi-AVR set-up for Immersive Audio - Page 14 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #391 of 1099 Old 08-18-2016, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
So, fellas, it turns out that Audyssey had already set all my height speakers to the exact same distance in the primary AVR (which is a weird setting of 23.6 feet, even though the furthest speaker from me is actually only 9 feet and their positions are not really all equidistant). I tried moving everything to the minimum (which is 0). No change. I also tried a couple of other distances (1 foot all around, 7 feet all around, etc.). I still hear the TM test tones from all three height speakers on each side.

It seems like the distance setting is not what's causing the secondary AVRs to believe they're receiving a stereo signal during this mono test tone.

Anybody got any other ideas?
Yes, the distance problem has been discussed before. PL2 processing adds a lot of delay, actually more than Audussey can fix.

Read here, post 58:


Beyond 7.1.4... Multi-AVR set-up for Immersive Audio

However, as you say that should not affect your problem.

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post #392 of 1099 Old 08-18-2016, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Yes, the distance problem has been discussed before. PL2 processing adds a lot of delay, actually more than Audussey can fix.
Interesting. In my case, it doesn't seem to be more than Audyssey can fix, though. My Denon AVR allows a distance setting up to 60 feet. The 23.6 is nowhere near that.

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post #393 of 1099 Old 08-18-2016, 08:54 PM
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Interesting. In my case, it doesn't seem to be more than Audyssey can fix, though. My Denon AVR allows a distance setting up to 60 feet. The 23.6 is nowhere near that.
Sure, the manual states that, but have you tried it?

In the post i linked to, the manual says no more than 6 meter difference allowed, or around 22 feet.

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post #394 of 1099 Old 08-18-2016, 09:19 PM
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Sure, the manual states that, but have you tried it?

In the post i linked to, the manual says no more than 6 meter difference allowed, or around 22 feet.
I haven't even looked in the manual. I got the 60 feet number from cranking the distance setting to its maximum.

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post #395 of 1099 Old 08-18-2016, 09:31 PM
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I haven't even looked in the manual. I got the 60 feet number from cranking the distance setting to its maximum.
Yes, and did you try to back out of that meny, to make that distance setting stick?

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post #396 of 1099 Old 08-18-2016, 09:34 PM
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I'm going to re-purpose my earlier post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
So, fellas, it turns out that Audyssey had already set all my height speakers to the exact same distance in the primary AVR...
With Audyssey probably applying different EQ filters to the two incoming channels, the PLII circuit sees it as a stereo signal, not a mono signal (it needs to see the signal as mono for proper centre extraction).

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post #397 of 1099 Old 08-18-2016, 09:53 PM
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Yes, and did you try to back out of that meny, to make that distance setting stick?
Fair enough, I didn't. And I'm focused on other things too much right now to play with it.
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post #398 of 1099 Old 08-18-2016, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
I'm going to re-purpose my earlier post: With Audyssey probably applying different EQ filters to the two incoming channels, the PLII circuit sees it as a stereo signal, not a mono signal (it needs to see the signal as mono for proper centre extraction).
This is so frustrating. Too bad there's no way to tell Audyssey to EQ only the ground speakers but not the heights.

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post #399 of 1099 Old 08-18-2016, 10:01 PM
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We'll, I'm extremely annoyed with myself right now. I just spent most of the night playing with every possible combination of Amp Assign settings (Top Front + Top Rear / Front Height + Top Rear / Front Height + Rear Height / etc.) to see which speakers sound came out of, and got a lot of really bizarre results.

At the end of all this, I realized that I'd totally forgotten something that should have been completely obvious. Audyssey didn't just set different distances and crossovers for the speakers, it also (DUH!) set different volumes for them.

Yup, that was it, staring me right in the face. The TF and TR channels had different volumes, so the secondary AVRs read the signal as stereo instead of mono. I level matched and... voila!... proper center extraction.

How did I not see that right away?

Now it's 1 AM and I have to figure out a way to recalibrate all three AVRs without ruining this center extraction again.

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post #400 of 1099 Old 08-18-2016, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
This is so frustrating.
Not to further frustrate you, but we haven't even mentioned levels yet. If you're going to take a mono TM signal, split it to TF & TR outputs, only to use subsequent centre extraction to recover the mono TM signal, then the PLII circuit needs to see a dual-mono signal coming in. If those two channels have different delays, equalization or levels, then it is no longer a dual-mono signal (i.e., no clean centre extraction). The signals in those two incoming channels have to be identical.


Edit: you picked up on the level discrepancy while I was typing my post.

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post #401 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
We'll, I'm extremely annoyed with myself right now. I just spent most of the night playing with every possible combination of Amp Assign settings (Top Front + Top Rear / Front Height + Top Rear / Front Height + Rear Height / etc.) to see which speakers sound came out of, and got a lot of really bizarre results.

At the end of all this, I realized that I'd totally forgotten something that should have been completely obvious. Audyssey didn't just set different distances and crossovers for the speakers, it also (DUH!) set different volumes for them.

Yup, that was it, staring me right in the face. The TF and TR channels had different volumes, so the secondary AVRs read the signal as stereo instead of mono. I level matched and... voila!... proper center extraction.

How did I not see that right away?

Now it's 1 AM and I have to figure out a way to recalibrate all three AVRs without ruining this center extraction again.
Glad you fixed it.

As for calibration, it seems you got the distances right already as Audyssey discovered them at the same one.

For the levels it is probably easiset to use a radioshack SPL meter and generate test tones on the PLII AVR first and adjust the three channels until they match. After that if you then send test tones out from the main AVR the TF and TR should still match.

Do you still have Audyssey enabled or was that disabled by the time you got it all working?

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post #402 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
For the levels it is probably easiset to use a radioshack SPL meter and generate test tones on the PLII AVR first and adjust the three channels until they match. After that if you then send test tones out from the main AVR the TF and TR should still match.
That's essentially what I did. I level-matched the two PLII AVRs first, then looked at the levels that Audyssey had set in my primary Atmos AVR. Fortunately, the height channels were all within 1-2 dB of each other there (ranging from +3 dB to +5 dB). I set them all for +5 dB then adjusted the levels in the secondary AVRs to compensate (lowering the appropriate channels 1-2 dB if I raised them in the other AVR). I played the test tones from the Atmos AVR again, and this time they matched as well.

Then, as if I hadn't listened to enough test tones all night, I played the 9.1.6 test on the Atmos demo disc one more time and confirmed that the TM channel extraction still works.

Quote:
Do you still have Audyssey enabled or was that disabled by the time you got it all working?
I had to disable it. Sanjay is correct. Even with all volume levels, distances and crossovers set identically for the height channels, the fact that they were EQed differently was enough to confuse the secondary AVRs and ruin the TM extraction. I once again got sound from all 3 speakers simultaneously. As soon as I turned off Audyssey, the TM extraction worked correctly again.

This is a little problematic, as I like Audyssey room correction and Dynamic EQ. I gave up and went to bed at 2:30 last night. Before I did, I poked through the Atmos AVR's advanced calibration options. I believe it should be possible to copy the Audyssey curve and then manually adjust it to set the height channels for identical EQ. (Worst case, I'll set them all for 0 and leave those speakers un-EQed.)

That should at least let me benefit from Audyssey room correction in the ground level speakers. Sadly, because Audyssey will still technically be turned off, I can't engage Dynamic EQ, which means that I won't get the real-time adjustment for different playback volumes.

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post #403 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Not to further frustrate you, but we haven't even mentioned levels yet. If you're going to take a mono TM signal, split it to TF & TR outputs, only to use subsequent centre extraction to recover the mono TM signal, then the PLII circuit needs to see a dual-mono signal coming in. If those two channels have different delays, equalization or levels, then it is no longer a dual-mono signal (i.e., no clean centre extraction). The signals in those two incoming channels have to be identical.


Edit: you picked up on the level discrepancy while I was typing my post.
I mentioned it in my last post.

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Turn off Audyssey for now. Go ahead and set the distance (on the main AVR) to 9ft for all overhead speakers (for now). Make sure any tone, EQ or distances on the secondary AVR's is disabled for now. Make sure you are in PL2 MOVIE mode with default adjustments (since you say that can be adjusted).

Diagnose with a bypass. Set the two secondary AVR's to STEREO or DIRECT. Make sure normal 7.1.4 is working as intended. Go back to PL2 MOVIE mode on the secondary AVR's. Double check the distances on the main AVR and make sure the distances are the same. Make sure the levels are the same.

That should be all it takes to get a clean signal to the secondary AVR's.




C'mon, Sanjay. Keep up!
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post #404 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 09:26 AM
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I had to disable it. Sanjay is correct. Even with all volume levels, distances and crossovers set identically for the height channels, the fact that they were EQed differently was enough to confuse the secondary AVRs and ruin the TM extraction. I once again got sound from all 3 speakers simultaneously. As soon as I turned off Audyssey, the TM extraction worked correctly again.

This is a little problematic, as I like Audyssey room correction and Dynamic EQ. I gave up and went to bed at 2:30 last night. Before I did, I poked through the Atmos AVR's advanced calibration options. I believe it should be possible to copy the Audyssey curve and then manually adjust it to set the height channels for identical EQ. (Worst case, I'll set them all for 0 and leave those speakers un-EQed.)

That should at least let me benefit from Audyssey room correction in the ground level speakers. Sadly, because Audyssey will still technically be turned off, I can't engage Dynamic EQ, which means that I won't get the real-time adjustment for different playback volumes.

Another perk for manual PEQ then, eh?

You want to join the advanced class with Scatmos, you're going to have to jump all the way in to the deep.
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post #405 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 09:31 AM
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One other thing that this whole exercise has revealed to me is how inadequate my prior "Zatmos" configuration was. I never thought to level, distance or EQ match the height channel outputs there. I just left them where Audyssey set them. So long as I heard some center channel matrixing from the secondary AVR, I assumed it was working and never gave it much thought. I didn't realize how poorly that matrixing was being done, and didn't have proper test tones to show me.

The Zatmos layout can still be made to work, once you understand these issues and put some extra work into setting it up, but it never even occurred to me at the time.

In any case, I'm much happier with the Scatmos configuration now. The sense of spaciousness at the top of my room already seems improved over what I was doing before. Once I get the EQ situation figured out, it should be even better still.

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post #406 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 09:36 AM
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post #407 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 09:44 AM
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Another perk for manual PEQ then, eh?

You want to join the advanced class with Scatmos, you're going to have to jump all the way in to the deep.
Audyssey Dynamic EQ is a really good feature and I will miss it. If you watch content at less than reference volume (which pretty much everyone does), it subtly raises the surround and subwoofer levels to compensate because those are harder to hear at lower volumes.

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post #408 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 09:54 AM
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I'm familiar with it.

Not a fan.

Sorry you lost a feature you liked. Eventually you'll have to weigh out the options: Scatmos or Audyssey and DEQ.


Ultimately I made the choice to disable Scatmos and retain full features of my Yamaha system and reduce system complexity. I really can't wait until three pairs of overheads becomes a semi-common feature on mid/high-end hardware.
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post #409 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 10:08 AM
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Ultimately I made the choice to disable Scatmos and retain full features of my Yamaha system and reduce system complexity.
I can certainly understand that. In my situation, the length of my room (lots of space behind my seating), the low ceiling height, and the limitations imposed by where I installed speakers before Atmos was ever a concern (they ain't moving now), all mean that 6 height speakers sound much better than 4. Fronts and rears don't image well on their own without dedicated middle speakers between them. Meanwhile, fronts and middles without rears behind them leave the back of the room sounding dead.

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I really can't wait until three pairs of overheads becomes a semi-common feature on mid/high-end hardware.
That would absolutely be welcomed by me. Running three AVRs is a pain in the neck!

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post #410 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 10:14 AM
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Fronts and rears don't image well on their own without dedicated middle speakers between them.
Originally I thought so too but after living with Scatmos for almost a year and then trying four speakers again with some good old fashioned listening and tweaking of settings, I got the same sound with two less speakers. I'm happy with the overhead sound.

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Meanwhile, fronts and middles without rears behind them leave the back of the room sounding dead.
Yeah. I tried that for a week and didn't like it. Thought I did at first because the middle overhead contributes so much but ....something was just "off".



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That would absolutely be welcomed by me. Running three AVRs is a pain in the neck!
Same! I'll have to keep mine around for a while as they are the only things powering my overhead speakers.
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post #411 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 10:15 AM
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The next thing I also need to figure out is whether I want to configure my Atmos AVR for Top Front + Top Rear (the way it is now) or Front Height + Rear Height. The front speakers are actually in the Front Height position above my main towers, but the combination of FH + TR didn't work when I tried it.

The last thing I did before I went to bed was play the helicopter audio demo. While it panned from front to middle to back and vice versa, there seemed to be a jump from front to middle rather than a smooth motion. I may just be overthinking this and need to play more content.

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post #412 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 10:19 AM
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I would recommend sticking with TOP settings for both but you should try the other settings out for yourself.

Also, in this situation, keeping the settings for front and back as the same (ie: not doing front HEIGHT and TOP rear) might work better for Scatmos.


And yes, the helicopter demo sounds AWFUL with Scatmos.
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post #413 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 11:25 AM
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^ This. I had my overheads set as heights for some time and then, based on Scott's arguments, switched back to tops. At least in my environment I found the sound to be a lot "tighter" and more pleasing for both formats; whether upmixed or not.
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post #414 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 12:32 PM
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^ This. I had my overheads set as heights for some time and then, based on Scott's arguments, switched back to tops. At least in my environment I found the sound to be a lot "tighter" and more pleasing for both formats; whether upmixed or not.
Where are you speakers physically located? My fronts are pretty clearly in the Front Height position in line with the towers below them. Even my rears are probably closer to 60-degrees behind my head than the recommended 45-degrees. Unfortunately, those speakers are fixed and I can't move them without destroying my soundproofed ceiling.

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post #415 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
I would recommend sticking with TOP settings for both but you should try the other settings out for yourself.

Also, in this situation, keeping the settings for front and back as the same (ie: not doing front HEIGHT and TOP rear) might work better for Scatmos.


And yes, the helicopter demo sounds AWFUL with Scatmos.
Strange, it is smooth and perfect in my dual Atmos AVR setup, where one is FH+RH, and the other is TF+TR. Perfect panning around the room.

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post #416 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 01:41 PM
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I'm not surprised considering the setup.
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post #417 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 02:04 PM
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I'm not surprised considering the setup.
Let me put it this way: with just heights, the chopper goes in a wide, big, circle at some height around you.
With just tops, it goes in a much narrower circle almost on top of you. But with both AVR's on, it has a perfect big circle clearly from above you. So kind of the best from two worlds.

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post #418 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 02:20 PM
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Josh--

I took the Dolby 24.10 diagram (it was the only one out at the time and matched mix studio guidelines from the 5.1/7.1 days when you strip out the extra speakers for Atmos) to build a 9.1.6 system with a non-AT screen, one row of three seats. Given how the AVRs work, I use it as a 9.4 system with two AVRs but hope I can get to .6 without having to do Trinnov or something. From a geometry/build perspective I matched the 9.x diagram for the floor and the interior .6 of the .10 part of the diagram. All the angles work out for the floor(30, 60, 87, 145).

The tops are along the side walls just like it shows. I did not use down firing, in-ceiling speakers but took commercial surrounds, put the wall bracket on the ceiling and angled everything to the MLP; for the top fronts and rears they are angled in two ways (down and toward the MLP) and the top middles are just angled down (since they are 90 degrees to the MLP by virtue of being above the sides surrounds they didn't need anything else).

I think it makes a big difference to have the acoustical center of the speakers all at ear height and angled to the MLP. Obviously the center is not at ear height but it is acoustically centered to the screen, middle seat and angled to the MLP. A similar important difference is to have the tops all be equidistant to the side walls and for the top fronts and rears equidistant to the MLP centerline so all the angles work for the tops and how they relate to floor speakers. I assumed Dolby knew what they were doing and for me it works out real well.

My floor speakers have their version of wave guides so there is enough dispersion to not "direct fire" but still keep it tight for each seat. That is, each seat sounds like the MLP even though the outside two aren't by virtue of distances and equalization. The tops also have guides since they are commercial surrounds so they do not have a "less than 90 degree issue". Hope this helps. PM me if you need more specific details.
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post #419 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Let me put it this way: with just heights, the chopper goes in a wide, big, circle at some height around you.
With just tops, it goes in a much narrower circle almost on top of you. But with both AVR's on, it has a perfect big circle clearly from above you. So kind of the best from two worlds.
That's sorta what I meant.
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post #420 of 1099 Old 08-19-2016, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
I had to disable [Audyssey]. Sanjay is correct. Even with all volume levels, distances and crossovers set identically for the height channels, the fact that they were EQed differently was enough to confuse the secondary AVRs and ruin the TM extraction. I once again got sound from all 3 speakers simultaneously. As soon as I turned off Audyssey, the TM extraction worked correctly again.

This is a little problematic, as I like Audyssey room correction and Dynamic EQ. I gave up and went to bed at 2:30 last night. Before I did, I poked through the Atmos AVR's advanced calibration options. I believe it should be possible to copy the Audyssey curve and then manually adjust it to set the height channels for identical EQ. (Worst case, I'll set them all for 0 and leave those speakers un-EQed.)

That should at least let me benefit from Audyssey room correction in the ground level speakers. Sadly, because Audyssey will still technically be turned off, I can't engage Dynamic EQ, which means that I won't get the real-time adjustment for different playback volumes.
Sadly, it appears that even this won't work. When you turn off Audyssey, the receiver's manual EQ feature is a pretty crude graphic equalizer. Even though there's an option to copy the Audyssey "curve," a little research shows that it doesn't copy Audyssey's filters, which I guess are proprietary.

I haven't decided whether I want to try even that much, or just leave it all off. I'm inclined to turn everything off, but my audio seems a little flat.

I wish there was a way to turn Audyssey on and manually adjust it. Unfortunately, it's all or nothing.

Hmmm... I wonder what would happen if I temporarily rewired all my my height channels to connect to just one of the speakers, and then ran another Audyssey calc. Would it measure them all the same and assign them identical EQ settings? If so, after I fixed the wiring, I should theoretically get proper matrixing from the secondary AVR even with Audyssey on in the first one.

Of course, something tells me that wouldn't actually work. Even played back through the same speakers, the microphone would measure slight differences in each test tone and assign different EQ.

Josh Z
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