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Is my Denon starving of power?

7K views 59 replies 24 participants last post by  jaddie 
#1 ·
Hi Guys,

I would like to hear your advise to see if my current AVR is starving of wattage? I have recently upgraded my front speakers and added height speaker to run as 5.1.2, here's what I have.

Denon AVR-X1200watts (80watts per channels)
Klipsch 650 THX L/R 150-650watts
Klipsch 525 THX Center 100-400watts
Klipsch 525 THX surround 100-400watts
Top Height 80-200watts
SVS PB-1000 Sub (active)

Previously with a Bose 301 as L/R, I was getting decent volume at about 55-60db on the Denon... but it seem with the new Klispch 650, I have to crank it to 65db or even higher to get the same volume.... I know my AVR is under power, but is it really really that bad? The other thing is, I am not getting much bass when listening to musics, in movies mode the subwoofer is good, but when listening to musics, seem like the sub is only out putting half the power.

Am I safe to go up to 80db on my Denon without risking damaging the speakers (like most people talk about? clipping?)
Any suggestion?
 
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#4 ·
Hi Guys,

I would like to hear your advise to see if my current AVR is starving of wattage? I have recently upgraded my front speakers and added height speaker to run as 5.1.2, here's what I have.

Denon AVR-X1200watts (80watts per channels)
Klipsch 650 THX L/R 150-650watts
Klipsch 525 THX Center 100-400watts
Klipsch 525 THX surround 100-400watts
Top Height 80-200watts
SVS PB-1000 Sub (active)

Previously with a Bose 301 as L/R, I was getting decent volume at about 55-60db on the Denon... but it seem with the new Klispch 650, I have to crank it to 65db or even higher to get the same volume.... I know my AVR is under power, but is it really really that bad? The other thing is, I am not getting much bass when listening to musics, in movies mode the subwoofer is good, but when listening to musics, seem like the sub is only out putting half the power.

Am I safe to go up to 80db on my Denon without risking damaging the speakers (like most people talk about? clipping?)
Any suggestion?

Your AVR is not under powered at all otherwise you would have to be raising the AVR to almost maximum. If you are using the factory default volume scale of 1-98, this is not db, rather simply a 1-98 scale with 1 being the lowest and 98 being the highest. Yes, it's safe to go to 80. Did you run Audyssey again after connecting the new speakers? After running Audyssey, go into Manual Setup and reset the FL/FR speakers to SMALL/80Hz which will ensure the subwoofer gets the lower bass frequencies from the FL/FR speakers when playing stereo 2.0 music.
 
#5 ·
Yes, I have run audyssey after installing new sub and L/R. Even though Klipsch 650 say they can go down to 40hz and audyssey set it to large. I went into manual and set all speakers to the following.

L/R Small 80hz
C Small 80hz
RS Small 80hz
Top Small 100hz
LFE only
LFE LPF 120hz (dial on sub is left on LFE, letting the AVR controlling frequency)

SVS told me to do that... so when watching movies the Sub will only play the bass signal from the .1 track. It's so weird in Movie mode whether in DolbyDigital or DolbyAtmos, it sound amazing, overall loud at 55-60% volume and the bass is chest pounding. But in musics (stereo), it almost seem like the woofer barely do anything, it's running, just not pumping.

I shouldn't have to change the Volume dial on my subwoofer between movie and musics do I? seem enoying that there's a huge gap between the two and I have to change it when switching between the two.
 
#8 ·
Hi Guys,

I would like to hear your advise to see if my current AVR is starving of wattage? I have recently upgraded my front speakers and added height speaker to run as 5.1.2, here's what I have.

Denon AVR-X1200watts (80watts per channels)
Klipsch 650 THX L/R 150-650watts
Klipsch 525 THX Center 100-400watts
Klipsch 525 THX surround 100-400watts
Top Height 80-200watts
SVS PB-1000 Sub (active)

Previously with a Bose 301 as L/R, I was getting decent volume at about 55-60db on the Denon... but it seem with the new Klispch 650, I have to crank it to 65db or even higher to get the same volume.... I know my AVR is under power, but is it really really that bad? The other thing is, I am not getting much bass when listening to musics, in movies mode the subwoofer is good, but when listening to musics, seem like the sub is only out putting half the power.

Am I safe to go up to 80db on my Denon without risking damaging the speakers (like most people talk about? clipping?)
Any suggestion?
with my denon avr and speakers rated @ 91db i get 94db spl at LP {5 feet away} on multi channel and 82 db on DTS with volume @ -35 volume watching live t.v. dynamic eq on,dynamic volume off.
 
#10 · (Edited)
It;'s weird... I just cant explain it... it just seem in Stereo mode, my sound is half as powerful... which doesn't make any sense... since in stereo mode, my AVR should have all it reserve power going into only two speakers right? in movie mode is where it should require more power to drive?

In movie mode turning up the volum from 50% to 60% made a huge different, turning it up to 70% and it starting to the hurt the ears. But in stereo.... 50-60% doesn't increase much and anything higher doesn't seem to increase the volume. The Klipsch 650 is rated for 150continous-600watts max... does it mean my AVR with 80watts RMS is not even scratching them? = 100% volume on my AVR is only HALF of the continuous watrage them speaker need? bad?
 
#11 ·
On my Denons (AVR-2313CI and 2113CI, from a couple years ago), Stereo mode disables the sub entirely. You're telling it to use two speakers, and that's what it's doing. I was surprised by this as well. It seems like the sub is working a little if you turn it up, but I think it's actually just moving reflexively in respose to the output from the other speakers.

There are four mode buttons at the botgom of my remote. Not looking at it right now, but I think they are Pure, Movie, Game, and Music. I can't remember which mode gave me the behavior I wanted, but one of them did. Hopefully yours has those buttons as well; if so, Just push those buttons until you find it. :)

If not, hopefully someone here knows how to do the equivalent on your model, or maybe you can find it in the manual or through experimentation.
 
#13 ·
Sad to say but i have heard many a multi channel, latest technology, blown out of the water when it comes to Retro Stereo systems such as Nad, Quad, Arcam, Naim, Technics and the list does not stop.
I sold my Yami 575 the day i received it less 50% and went back to Retro Stereo.
I rest my case.
 
#14 ·
What happened to Denon? They used to make THE best surround/amp equipment.
Huge, beefy, well built units.......never ran out of power!....now..........puny power supplies.........barely 40-50 watts all channels driven..........

I regret selling my AVC-big-dog receiver every day.

I dunno'..........cost-cutting is taking over........to much.
 
#15 ·
What happened to Denon? They used to make THE best surround/amp equipment.

Huge, beefy, well built units.......never ran out of power!....now..........puny power supplies.........barely 40-50 watts all channels driven..........



I regret selling my AVC-big-dog receiver every day.



I dunno'..........cost-cutting is taking over........to much.

Op is using x1200 which is their entry level x series, cant expect it to perform like top if the line stuff bow can you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#16 ·
Yes...that is true. But I was kinda' referring to some of their totl stuff too.
Maybe the 1200xv is being overwhelmed a bit by the speaker load......?

I hope the OP resolves his problem, so he can enjoy good performance. Please post with you findings.
This may sound lame, but, are your speakers wired correctly? If not, this will cause low output and other shennanigans.....
 
#17 ·
I certainly hope so... pretty sure the polarity is correct if that's what you're asking? Using 16awg speaker wire from monoprice, length from AVR to front speakers is about 20ft. I will check again.

This can all be my ears... I will try to get some video recording clip and let you try to hear it out... to see if it's just me or does it indeed got issue.

SVS Sound guys confirmed to me my setting is right and he's suspecting, could be the source or the type of musics or I am just craving more bass. But to be honest, I am not a bass head, I hated those bass rattler drive by... But when you turn on a pop song and your body ain't trying to move, then I think the bass isn't there.

I know for sure the Bass is on and the Sub is working... the LED is blue, it got signal. I know my AVR is a entry receiver and it's whimsy. But need to try out all possibility and learn more before I go and make another stupid newbie decision and bought a AVR without pre-out. This is an issue when you buy stuff at Bestbuy, they simply tell you to either buy the most expensive thing you can afford or the cheapest... but they don't really tell you why you should or shouldn't .
 
#18 · (Edited)
Is the volume on your sub set? Have you done a speaker setup calibration? Test tones with spl meter?
What ohm rating are your Klipsches? 8? 4?
I think maybe your Klipsches crave a bit more power..........
Do you hear anything from your sub? Feel the cone if in doubt.......

Are you running a 'direct' mode on the receiver? This may bypass the crossover........sending nothing or very little to the sub output....

Try switch to different music modes........
 
#20 ·
The subwoofer setting should be LFE plus MAIN, I believe this sends the 80hz and lower to the sub with standard audio sources.
I use a Denon AVCA10SE as a pre amp and I have always had mine set to that and had no problem.
 
#24 ·
Is it? It's been that long since I set it, that's just been the way....It's only 0730 at the moment so I can't really do a test. All my speakers are set to small too, no issues with any loss of bottom end.
 
#29 ·
...it seem with the new Klispch 650, I have to crank it to 65db or even higher to get the same volume.... I know my AVR is under power, but is it really really that bad? The other thing is, I am not getting much bass when listening to musics, in movies mode the subwoofer is good, but when listening to musics, seem like the sub is only out putting half the power.
You just changed the speakers but did not readjust the subwoofer calibration? Or did you rerun Audyssey?

How is the music connected? Are you playing HDMI out of the same disc player for both music and movies? Or from a different player or input?

Do you have the same problem if you play multichannel music?
 
#30 ·
Alright, let forget about the bass/subwoofer for now... I don't think this is the issue any more. I think this is my problem.

1. Klipsch claim the 650 THX is 8ohm, but someone told me the 2 6" woofer in each speaker are connect in parallel which make it 4ohm. Here's the speaker for reference. They're pretty good size, not puny. 15" (38.1cm) H x 17" (43.2cm) W x 12.

But here's the rating for my Denon X1200. It say nothing about 4ohm?
Number of Poweramps 7
Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive) 80 W
Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% 2ch Drive) _
Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 0.7% 2ch Drive) 120 W
Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 10% 1ch Drive) 175 W

2. I turn down the crossover on the Klipsch 650 to 60hz, hoping it would pump a bit extra bass out of this... but not really.

3. I listen to MultiChannel just now, sound ok, loud enough...

So here's my theory, my movies sound good because there's a total 7 speakers playing, subwoofer is getting it own .1 bass signal for movie. Being 5.1.2 spread the sound through the room, so it feel enough. But in stereo only the front speaker is working and it's not being pump with enough power (or possibly the 4omh vs 80hm issue, them woofer is not even working that hard... giving me nothing but the tweater when I crank up the volume...) maybe this is why the higher the volume is, the lower bass?

Anyway, I'm stuck for now, no more budget to upgrade AVR, don't know anyone with a good amps to test.

Guess I would just listen in MultiChannel until upgrade.

What happen when you run 4ohm speaker with an AVR that can only handle 8ohm?

:confused:
 
#32 ·
Simply put.
You can drive any ohm speaker with any amp. The lower the ohms the more power the speaker draws. Drawing more power makes the amp heat up, pulling more voltage, degrading as it reaches its failue point. (clipping) This is why you spent the big bucks on a high current amp, to prevent this.

The numbers you have given:
Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive) 80 W
Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% 2ch Drive) _
Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 0.7% 2ch Drive) 120 W
Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 10% 1ch Drive) 175 W

is what your amps measured output into 8 ohm speakers is.
It will be different for 4 ohm.

It appears you are correct that the 650's are 4ohm speakers, per this Audioholics test. Cut and paste I could not get link to work.
http://www.audioholics.com/soundbar-and-satellite-speaker-reviews/klipsch-thx-ultra2/page-2
From the Klipsch web site for the 650's "NOMINAL IMPEDANCE 8 ohms compatible"
You see they use the word compatible. They do not claim they are 8 ohm speakers.

Having written all that your amp will drive these speakers no problem.
 
#33 ·
Ok i understand it can drive it... but the question is, does it drive it good enough, does not sound like it though, to me I think these speaker should be louder, more captivating, I think my avr cant make this speaker shine.

What should i be looking at if...

* I currently running 5.1.2, but i want 7.1.2 or even 7.4
* 4ohm capable
* pre out
* 4k and 3d pass through with dolby atmos
* cost around 1000-1500.00

What are my option?
 
#34 ·
You said your setup sounds fine for movies, it is just stereo playback that is the issue. Have you tryed the 7 channel stereo yet? As I said it sounds great for me.
to me I think these speaker should be louder, more captivating, I think my avr cant make this speaker shine.
Well that is certainly your preference. In the end it is your ears that must be pleased. I'm sure there are many other receivers that can do a better job then the one you have currently.
I don't want to recomend a unit as I have no experience with presently sold models.
A quick search says your looking at a minimum of $2100 for a 7.2.2 setup. More for 7.2.4 as you will need to purchase amps. I'm pretty sure you can run a 9.2 AVR in 5.2.4, just another option. Remember cheaper is not always better.
 
#35 ·
You said your setup sounds fine for movies, it is just stereo playback that is the issue. Have you tryed the 7 channel stereo yet? As I said it sounds great for me.
Are you talking about Musics mode > Dolby Surround? In this mode, all vocal is coming from center, so it;s like watching a movie. In Musics> MultiChannels > all speaker play something, sound ok... It can work.

I was thinking, since my Denon AVRX1200 actually does have PREOUT for Zone2 is what they call... (only stereo), but it's possible I can add separate AMP to run Zone2 for musics. But then the Subwoofer won't work because it's in Zone 1. I guessed all this limitation just so you will have to buy the next line up.

Called Denon and the tech guys I talked to.... I think know less than I do... everything I asked he have to look it up. But he told me the next model up from my model, have a option in the menu to change to run 4omh speakers.... bloody hellllllll....
 
#39 ·
What source are you using for stereo, a CD player or something different?

I'm asking because you have a source level control for each input.

When you run audyssey, it's setting levels for multichannel play back.

If you have a different input source, you're going to need to set the level of the input to equal the others.
 
#42 ·
From the AVR-X1200 manual

Original sound mode
Sound mode type: Multi Ch Stereo
De*scrip*tion: This mode is for en*joy*ing stereo sound from all speak*ers. Stereo audio (2-chan*nel) sources are played back via the front (L/R) speak*ers, the sur*round speak*ers and sur*round back speak*ers (if con*nected).
I run a 7.1 system.
Hey its worth a try.
 
#43 · (Edited)
Lacking Bass in Stereo

I havn't read every word of this thread, but read less bass (fullness) in stereo compared to multi-channel. I'll chime in with this...
My preamp's subwoofer setting includes: LFE and LR+Sub. I use LR+Sub so that my subs are receiving LF signal at all times regardless if Stereo or multi-channel is selected. The signal the sub(s) receives is dictated by my preamp (example 80Hz and below) and I use the "full range" subwoofer's in-port to bypass the sub's crossover (filter). Look into your receiver menu pertaining to sub and see if you have another option(s) other than LFE - which for me only sends bass freqs to sub in multi-channel modes (dts, dolby surround, etc.)


PS: if you don't have a sub option other than LFE and your sub(s) has a crossover, you can send you sub a full range signal via your receiver's record-out or pre-out with RCA y-splitter off your L & R channels. I'm not 100% but think the LFE channel is dictated by the source material (movie sound track) which is why only multi-channel content has sub content (LFE).
 
#44 ·
I found some Marantz MA500 Mono amps... specs are good, but they are old tech? If I can get 5x of these for 400.00, is it a good investment?

Let say I get them amps now... later on all I need is to get a decent AVR with the feature I want and most important have PreOut and I can hook it up to these 5 amps and rock the house?

http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/P...tertainmentSystems&SubCatId=0&ProductId=MA500

The specs seem very good.

Rated Power125W / 8 ohms
180W / 4 ohmsTHD
 
#46 ·
Thought and advise please.
As you know, your Denon doesn't have the main channel pre-outs required to hook up a power amp. You could possibly use Zone 2, but you'll need something with a volume control I believe.

By the time you get up to an AVR with pre-outs, your looking at about a 125WPC unit anyway (admittedly though not all channels driven). To get just a theoretical 2dBSPL louder than a 125WPC unit you'll need about a 200WPC amp, so incremental increases in rated power are a poor investment.

I doubt a power amp would do you any good anyway. Your issue sounds to me like some default in the Denon's audio setup menu to me. I'd post a brief description and a link to this thread in your AVR owners thread, and let the gurus there run through the usual suspects: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...series-avr-owner-s-thread-faq-hdcp-2-2-a.html.
 
#47 ·
go to your settings, volume check your output source. usually its 0. you can bump that to +5db or over
remember this is not for all inputs, its assignable individually. im having the same issue on my Denon S910W but this is the only way i can bump the volume
 
#48 · (Edited)
Ok, update. So I picked up the Niles 275 for 70.00 bucks today... figure well worth it a try...

Well, got home, hook the Zone 2 stereo pre-amps to it... hook up my old Bose 301 to it first make sure it work and isn't going to cook my speakers. Hook up the Klipsch 650...... and... oh boy. What a freaken big difference.... it's a brand new speaker. 55% volume and it's shining, 60% and it too loud.... THIS is diffinately how it suppose to be. The bass is only slightly better, but expected... no subwoofer. But over all increase the performance by day and night...

I just couldn't believe it. So it must be something to do with the Denon 1200 can't handle 4ohm....

Sad part is I can't really use this amps with the system until I get a AVR with preamp for the main... haha... sucks. But now at least I know the issue.

thanks all
 
#51 ·
Ok, update. So I picked up the Niles 275 for 70.00 bucks today... figure well worth it a try...

Well, got home, hook the Zone 2 stereo pre-amps to it... hook up my old Bose 301 to it first make sure it work and isn't going to cook my speakers. Hook up the Klipsch 650...... and... oh boy. What a freaken big difference.... it's a brand new speaker. 55% volume and it's shining, 60% and it too loud.... THIS is diffinately how it suppose to be. The bass is only slightly better, but expected... no subwoofer. But over all increase the performance by day and night...

I just couldn't believe it. So it must be something to do with the Denon 1200 can't handle 4ohm....

Sad part is I can't really use this amps with the system until I get a AVR with preamp for the main... haha... sucks. But now at least I know the issue.

thanks all
I really believe its some setting that is not right or Audyssey screwing with the sound. Your AVR might not be the most power full, but no way a Niles can make that kind of difference.
 
#52 ·
I was thinking about this.... but already spend too much.... even though my Denon is only 3 months old, but probably can't resell it for a good price anyway... bought it for 599.00, can I sell it for 400? I was looking at the Marantz 7702. The new receiver need to have 4k pass through, Dolby Atmos and at least 9.1.


I really believe its some setting that is not right or Audyssey screwing with the sound. Your AVR might not be the most power full, but no way a Niles can make that kind of difference.
Maybe so.... but I can't figure it out. Shouldn't be that complicated... I had tried the PURE button already, make no difference. I can will try to turn off Audyssey this weekend and try it again.

But why don't you think the Niles could make the difference, since I have read so many swears a dedicated AMPS would always out performance any AVR. The Niles is rated to be 4ohm stable, where the Denon only 6ohm stable. Sorry, I probably have no idea what I am saying... but this is just what I've learned around the forums. :D

Denon AVR-X1200
Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive) 80 W

Niles 275 75 Watt - 8 Ohm - THD 0.05%
 
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