"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - Page 125 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3721 of 3822 Old 09-30-2017, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post
Thank you. Definitely will try it, BUT, I am curious at what frequency sound becomes non directional. Meaning that wether a sub or speaker is playing that frequency, it does not project sound. When I go from 80hz to 60hz it feels as if I get more bass.
You are welcome! That's a hard question. Part of the problem in answering it is that we rarely hear single frequencies. We also hear undertones and overtones. Overtones of a frequency may still draw our attention, and we might feel tactile sensations which also provide directional cues. Empirically speaking, though, most people cannot localize a subwoofer at 80Hz or under.

I agree with Gary that you need to let your ears be your guide, but it is perplexing to me that a 60Hz crossover could provide more bass than an 80Hz one with your 5" woofers. It may be that when you tried that crossover last time, you had not yet boosted your subs. In my opinion, you should get significantly better bass at 60Hz, from your sub, than you should from your front speakers. Try listening to something with some good mid-bass, perhaps something like John Wick, during one of the many gunfight scenes. With a sub boost, your Rythmik should walk all over your Ascends as you raise the crossover to 80Hz or higher.

On the other hand, as you raise your crossover, particularly to about 100Hz, you can experiment with using your tone control to augment the mid-bass that your front speakers are playing. Of course, you would have to turn off DEQ to use that feature. That is not something that I would recommend doing with a 60Hz crossover for those speakers. Even the bass boost that DEQ provides to those speakers would worry me a little with a 60Hz crossover. Those are very nice speakers, but they were never designed to play much low bass.

Regards,
Mike
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post #3722 of 3822 Old 10-03-2017, 09:05 AM
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quick Audyssey xt32 Q?

When you normally run xt32 you have to run it 6 times from 6 different position, that are all very close to each other.

In order to save time for a temporary calibration , can you just run it once from the initial position?

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post #3723 of 3822 Old 10-03-2017, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by klimo View Post
When you normally run xt32 you have to run it 6 times from 6 different position, that are all very close to each other.

In order to save time for a temporary calibration , can you just run it once from the initial position?
Hi,

XT and XT-32 actually require (recommend) using 8 mic positions. Some people use fewer than 8 mic positions even for full calibrations. In general, the fuzzy logic weighting system is designed to work better when we give it more information, so it is advisable to use all 8 mic positions (although they can be pretty close together) when doing a "permanent" calibration.

If you are doing a temporary calibration, to test AVR sub trim settings for instance, then you can use the minimum number of mic positions that your AVR requires in order to calibrate. In my slightly older Marantz SR7008, I can calibrate after just one mic position. I have read that with some newer Denon/Marantz AVR's, a minimum of three mic positions is required before Audyssey will calibrate.

Regards,
Mike
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post #3724 of 3822 Old 10-03-2017, 10:43 AM
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How much impact do reflections affect an audyssey calibration? My two side surround speakers lose some line of sight if the outside two seats on my seating are fully up, but when I recline them to be even with the 2 inside seats (MLP) they cause some early reflections. Trying to decide if I should calibrate with them reclined to preserve more line of sight or up and remove the reflections.
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post #3725 of 3822 Old 10-03-2017, 10:53 AM
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How much impact do reflections affect an audyssey calibration? My two side surround speakers lose some line of sight if the outside two seats on my seating are fully up, but when I recline them to be even with the 2 inside seats (MLP) they cause some early reflections. Trying to decide if I should calibrate with them reclined to preserve more line of sight or up and remove the reflections.
That's an interesting question, and I might try a couple of different methods to determine what sounds best. Audyssey definitely picks-up early reflections and may attempt to compensate, or in the case of comb filtering effects due to mic proximity to a hard surface, overcompensate for them.

If I were addressing the situation you describe, I think that my first thought would be to recline the seats and cover them with a blanket to keep the Audyssey mic from overreacting to them. Then, after calibration, I would return them to their normal listening position (or leave them reclined if someone is actually using them that way) and remove the blanket. I think that would give you the line-of-sight improvement that you may want without incurring spurious reflections as a result. But, some of this is simply trial-and-error to determine what sounds best.

Regards,
Mike
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post #3726 of 3822 Old 10-03-2017, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
That's an interesting question, and I might try a couple of different methods to determine what sounds best. Audyssey definitely picks-up early reflections and may attempt to compensate, or in the case of comb filtering effects due to mic proximity to a hard surface, overcompensate for them.

If I were addressing the situation you describe, I think that my first thought would be to recline the seats and cover them with a blanket to keep the Audyssey mic from overreacting to them. Then, after calibration, I would return them to their normal listening position (or leave them reclined if someone is actually using them that way) and remove the blanket. I think that would give you the line-of-sight improvement that you may want without incurring spurious reflections as a result. But, some of this is simply trial-and-error to determine what sounds best.

Regards,
Mike
Good idea with the blankets, I am already going to have to do that with the back rests as well. I have so many variables at this point, it would take me a decade to try out all the combinations. I agree with your thought though, probably best of both worlds.
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post #3727 of 3822 Old 10-05-2017, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
That's an interesting question, and I might try a couple of different methods to determine what sounds best. Audyssey definitely picks-up early reflections and may attempt to compensate, or in the case of comb filtering effects due to mic proximity to a hard surface, overcompensate for them.

If I were addressing the situation you describe, I think that my first thought would be to recline the seats and cover them with a blanket to keep the Audyssey mic from overreacting to them. Then, after calibration, I would return them to their normal listening position (or leave them reclined if someone is actually using them that way) and remove the blanket. I think that would give you the line-of-sight improvement that you may want without incurring spurious reflections as a result. But, some of this is simply trial-and-error to determine what sounds best.

Regards,
Mike
I've thought to do the blanket thing before too in the past, as I have reflective leather couches. I've even tried it and wound up with results that were improved when running REW sweeps vs not having the blankets. When I removed the blankets and re-did my sweeps, the REW sweeps produced results that were worse than when I just let Audyssey do it's thing with the couches uncovered. So, I arrived at the conclusion that if the blankets weren't always going to be there and I ran Audyssey with them in place, the EQ Audyssey creates in that case will be for an environment that won't really exist. I figured it would be better to let the reflections happen as they normally will, and let Audyssey do it's best to EQ based on that sound.

Is this thinking flawed? I'm not being sarcastic or challenging your recommendation at all. I am asking honestly as I would like to learn.
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post #3728 of 3822 Old 10-05-2017, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I've thought to do the blanket thing before too in the past, as I have reflective leather couches. I've even tried it and wound up with results that were improved when running REW sweeps vs not having the blankets. When I removed the blankets and re-did my sweeps, the REW sweeps produced results that were worse than when I just let Audyssey do it's thing with the couches uncovered. So, I arrived at the conclusion that if the blankets weren't always going to be there and I ran Audyssey with them in place, the EQ Audyssey creates in that case will be for an environment that won't really exist. I figured it would be better to let the reflections happen as they normally will, and let Audyssey do it's best to EQ based on that sound.

Is this thinking flawed? I'm not being sarcastic or challenging your recommendation at all. I am asking honestly as I would like to learn.
Very interested to hear the response to this. I'm in the same boat with leather couches/chairs.
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post #3729 of 3822 Old 10-05-2017, 07:15 AM
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Very interested to hear the response to this. I'm in the same boat with leather couches/chairs.
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I've thought to do the blanket thing before too in the past, as I have reflective leather couches. I've even tried it and wound up with results that were improved when running REW sweeps vs not having the blankets. When I removed the blankets and re-did my sweeps, the REW sweeps produced results that were worse than when I just let Audyssey do it's thing with the couches uncovered. So, I arrived at the conclusion that if the blankets weren't always going to be there and I ran Audyssey with them in place, the EQ Audyssey creates in that case will be for an environment that won't really exist. I figured it would be better to let the reflections happen as they normally will, and let Audyssey do it's best to EQ based on that sound.

Is this thinking flawed? I'm not being sarcastic or challenging your recommendation at all. I am asking honestly as I would like to learn.

Very informative information to know about, fabric seating vs leather.
Does not apply to me, since I use fabric, but nice to know no less.


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post #3730 of 3822 Old 10-05-2017, 07:17 AM
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Same interest here as to if you should use a blanket...?


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post #3731 of 3822 Old 10-05-2017, 07:29 AM
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I've thought to do the blanket thing before too in the past, as I have reflective leather couches. I've even tried it and wound up with results that were improved when running REW sweeps vs not having the blankets. When I removed the blankets and re-did my sweeps, the REW sweeps produced results that were worse than when I just let Audyssey do it's thing with the couches uncovered. So, I arrived at the conclusion that if the blankets weren't always going to be there and I ran Audyssey with them in place, the EQ Audyssey creates in that case will be for an environment that won't really exist. I figured it would be better to let the reflections happen as they normally will, and let Audyssey do it's best to EQ based on that sound.

Is this thinking flawed? I'm not being sarcastic or challenging your recommendation at all. I am asking honestly as I would like to learn.

Hi,

I think it's a very fair question. I don't believe that your thinking is flawed, but it is sometimes very hard to predict what will happen with respect to speaker and sub placement, room treatments, and with automated room EQ, until we actually try something. Your personal experience, in your room, trumps a theory of what might work best. That's why it is usually advisable to experiment with multiple scenarios, unless the first one we try just happens to nail it. I also think that our ears have to be the final arbiters of what sounds best with respect to both the use of room treatments and the application of room EQ.

I do think that there is a valid reason why putting a blanket over the back of a couch or chair, during calibration only, can work well. But, reasons aside, we still ultimately have to let our ears make the final determination. The Audyssey microphone is omnidirectional. If we get that microphone too close to a hard surface (such as a wall or the back of a leather chair) during the calibration process, the microphone may pick-up many secondary reflections from that hard surface. And, if it does, it may try to correct a non-existent problem in the higher frequencies. When that happened in my room, early in my calibration experiments, the result was a harsher sound in the high frequencies.

So, using a blanket over the back of the chair, during calibration, allows us to place the Audyssey microphone in closer proximity to where our ears will actually be. And, that has some benefit in my experience, and in the experience of a number of other Audyssey users. The alternative to using a blanket to prevent Audyssey from overreacting to the proximity of an omnidirectional mic to a hard surface is to stay further away from that surface. Audyssey recommends keeping the mic at least 12" from a hard surface during calibration, and 18" may be better. But, if we do that, we aren't focusing the timing and SPL exactly at the MLP, and we aren't EQing exactly where our ears are.

(As an aside, I should note that REW notwithstanding, we won't hear what the Audyssey microphone "hears". First, we will actually be sitting with our heads and bodies covering the surfaces that are reflecting high frequencies into the Audyssey mic. Second, the reflections from a couch back would be arriving so close in time to the direct sound that our ears and brains would not be able to distinguish a difference. But the Audyssey microphone would "hear" them all, and to the Audyssey software, it might seem as if too much were happening at those high frequencies, compared to the other frequencies. That could result in an attempt to get too busy at those high frequencies, causing unnecessary correction and concomitant harsh sounds. That's why Audyssey recommends keeping the mic away from hard surfaces during calibration.)

So, I think that there is something intrinsically different between the idea of using a blanket over a chair or couch back during calibration, in order to prevent spurious reflections at close range from tainting the calibration, and making more draconian changes to the listening area. In the case of the OP's question, I suggested trying a couple of different approaches to discover what actually works best, but I did like the idea of reclining the seats to allow better line-of sight for the Audyssey microphone. He was concerned, though, about spurious reflections, in that case. They would be spurious because the seats wouldn't actually be reclined during actual listening. So, the blanket idea might also work there. Or, it might not.

I have confidence in the idea of using a blanket over a leather chair back, during calibration, in order to get the Audyssey microphone closer to our actual listening position. The theory behind why it should work is solid, and Chris K. has endorsed it as a workable and appropriate method. But, even so, that doesn't mean it will work well in every case. And, as we go beyond that methodology to more general applications, such as covering coffee tables or outlying seats with blankets, we have even less solid theory to support the effort. But, with or without solid theory, what works best in actual practice will still be a matter of trial-and-error, and the results will probably vary based on both the room and on user preference.

I hope that this longer explanation of my personal thoughts on the subject are helpful. Ultimately, though, it's still one of those YMMV issues.

Regards,
Mike
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post #3732 of 3822 Old 10-05-2017, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I think it's a very fair question. I don't believe that your thinking is flawed, but it is sometimes very hard to predict what will happen with respect to speaker and sub placement, room treatments, and with automated room EQ, until we actually try something. Your personal experience, in your room, trumps a theory of what might work best. That's why it is usually advisable to experiment with multiple scenarios, unless the first one we try just happens to nail it. I also think that our ears have to be the final arbiters of what sounds best with respect to both the use of room treatments and the application of room EQ.

I do think that there is a valid reason why putting a blanket over the back of a couch or chair, during calibration only, can work well. But, reasons aside, we still ultimately have to let our ears make the final determination. The Audyssey microphone is omnidirectional. If we get that microphone too close to a hard surface (such as a wall or the back of a leather chair) during the calibration process, the microphone may pick-up many secondary reflections from that hard surface. And, if it does, it may try to correct a non-existent problem in the higher frequencies. When that happened in my room, early in my calibration experiments, the result was a harsher sound in the high frequencies.

So, using a blanket over the back of the chair, during calibration, allows us to place the Audyssey microphone in closer proximity to where our ears will actually be. And, that has some benefit in my experience, and in the experience of a number of other Audyssey users. The alternative to using a blanket to prevent Audyssey from overreacting to the proximity of an omnidirectional mic to a hard surface is to stay further away from that surface. Audyssey recommends keeping the mic at least 12" from a hard surface during calibration, and 18" may be better. But, if we do that, we aren't focusing the timing and SPL exactly at the MLP, and we aren't EQing exactly where our ears are.

(As an aside, I should note that REW notwithstanding, we won't hear what the Audyssey microphone "hears". First, we will actually be sitting with our heads and bodies covering the surfaces that are reflecting high frequencies into the Audyssey mic. Second, the reflections from a couch back would be arriving so close in time to the direct sound that our ears and brains would not be able to distinguish a difference. But the Audyssey microphone would "hear" them all, and to the Audyssey software, it might seem as if too much were happening at those high frequencies, compared to the other frequencies. That could result in an attempt to get too busy at those high frequencies, causing unnecessary correction and concomitant harsh sounds. That's why Audyssey recommends keeping the mic away from hard surfaces during calibration.)

So, I think that there is something intrinsically different between the idea of using a blanket over a chair or couch back during calibration, in order to prevent spurious reflections at close range from tainting the calibration, and making more draconian changes to the listening area. In the case of the OP's question, I suggested trying a couple of different approaches to discover what actually works best, but I did like the idea of reclining the seats to allow better line-of sight for the Audyssey microphone. He was concerned, though, about spurious reflections, in that case. They would be spurious because the seats wouldn't actually be reclined during actual listening. So, the blanket idea might also work there. Or, it might not.

I have confidence in the idea of using a blanket over a leather chair back, during calibration, in order to get the Audyssey microphone closer to our actual listening position. The theory behind why it should work is solid, and Chris K. has endorsed it as a workable and appropriate method. But, even so, that doesn't mean it will work well in every case. And, as we go beyond that methodology to more general applications, such as covering coffee tables or outlying seats with blankets, we have even less solid theory to support the effort. But, with or without solid theory, what works best in actual practice will still be a matter of trial-and-error, and the results will probably vary based on both the room and on user preference.

I hope that this longer explanation of my personal thoughts on the subject are helpful. Ultimately, though, it's still one of those YMMV issues.

Regards,
Mike
As usual, that was an extremely helpful and well thought out response. It makes a lot of sense to me. It even got me thinking to give the couch recline and cover idea a try as my couch also has reclining seats (and I often recline in them during movie watching). I think I will give this a shot tonight and see how it goes.

Thanks,
Mike (I'm also a Mike )
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post #3733 of 3822 Old 10-05-2017, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I've thought to do the blanket thing before too in the past, as I have reflective leather couches. I've even tried it and wound up with results that were improved when running REW sweeps vs not having the blankets. When I removed the blankets and re-did my sweeps, the REW sweeps produced results that were worse than when I just let Audyssey do it's thing with the couches uncovered. So, I arrived at the conclusion that if the blankets weren't always going to be there and I ran Audyssey with them in place, the EQ Audyssey creates in that case will be for an environment that won't really exist. I figured it would be better to let the reflections happen as they normally will, and let Audyssey do it's best to EQ based on that sound.

Is this thinking flawed? I'm not being sarcastic or challenging your recommendation at all. I am asking honestly as I would like to learn.
I think it's flawed thinking.

You're measuring with the mic in front of a chair with reflective leather covering so the mic is picking up reflections from the chair if you don't cover the chair with a blanket. When you're actually using the system, the leather of the chair is covered by you so you're not hearing reflections from the leather surface or at most only a small amount of reflection from any leather you aren't physically covering with your body. If you don't want to cover the chair with a blanket and you do want to measure the same environment that exists when you're using the system, then you have to take your measurements with someone actually sitting in the chair, and any other normal viewers sitting where they usually sit. You can't take the measurements while someone is sitting in the chair because you can't place the mic in the space occupied by someone's head.

The blanket isn't a perfect approximation of how things are when you're sitting in the chair. The uncovered chair isn't a perfect approximation of how things are when you're sitting in the chair. There's no way to get an exact measurement of what the room is like during normal use but the aim of the exercise is to get a result that makes your use of the system more enjoyable. If you don't like the result you get with the chair uncovered and you prefer the result you get doing the measurements with the chair covered by a blanket, why would you not measure with the blanket in place and then use the result you get from those measurements?

It's easy to overthink things. Audyssey's profile isn't a magic profile that suits everyone. It's based on research on people's preferences and it reflects a "majority view". We don't know how well it reflects your personal view or my personal view. We get different results from our measurements if we use slightly different mic placements or leave a door or window open one time and not the next time we do a full calibration, and so on. There's no way of guaranteeing a perfect measurement process that will deliver the ideal Audyssey result and no guarantee that we—you or I or anyone else doing the process—will personally like the result we get.

The practical solution to the process is to follow Audyssey's instructions as well as we can and see if we like the result. If we don't like the result then either we live with it anyway, try the process again changing something that changes the result and gives us a result we do like, or we stop using Audyssey and try other options for changing the way the system sounds. Those are the only options we have.

The problem in my room isn't a leather chair, it's a steel topped coffee table. I remove it from the room when I do my setup and put it back afterwards. I want to have the coffee table there and there's usually things like books and remotes and other stuff on it breaking up the reflections from it anyway, but I don't like the result I get if I do my measurements with the table in place so I remove it.

Your reason for using Audyssey should be to get a more enjoyable listening result. The aim is not to produce a result that implements some specific target response curve perfectly because we can't do that when we don't do measurements of the room as it is in actual use with every normal listener sitting where they would normally sit during normal use, and the aim is definitely not to live with a result that we don't enjoy. If making a change in the measurement process, whether that be in mic positioning or using a blanket over a leather chair or removing a coffee table from the room during measurements, produces a result that suits us more than the result we get if we don't make that change, then the best thing to do is to make that change in our measurement procedure and get the result we prefer more because the reason for using Audyssey is to get a more enjoyable result.
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post #3734 of 3822 Old 10-05-2017, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I've thought to do the blanket thing before too in the past, as I have reflective leather couches. I've even tried it and wound up with results that were improved when running REW sweeps vs not having the blankets. When I removed the blankets and re-did my sweeps, the REW sweeps produced results that were worse than when I just let Audyssey do it's thing with the couches uncovered. So, I arrived at the conclusion that if the blankets weren't always going to be there and I ran Audyssey with them in place, the EQ Audyssey creates in that case will be for an environment that won't really exist. I figured it would be better to let the reflections happen as they normally will, and let Audyssey do it's best to EQ based on that sound.

Is this thinking flawed? I'm not being sarcastic or challenging your recommendation at all. I am asking honestly as I would like to learn.
I don't think your thinking is flawed. Also, we know that the Audyssey calibration is not done with people sitting on those leather couches, which undoubtedly has an effect on the acoustics of the room. Clothed people are in the rooms when we listen, and Audyssey doesn't measure what that does to room acoustics. Certainly we are (when clothed!) more sound absorbent than a leather couch.
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post #3735 of 3822 Old 10-06-2017, 12:50 AM
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Somewhere, I read that a crew acoustically treating/balancing a concert hall placed burlap sacks stuffed with fluff in most of the seats to simulate an audience, on the grounds that a room full of empty seats would not acoustically resemble a full house.

It sounds weird, but that shouldn't be too hard to do. If your regular movie audience has a few folk who wear spectacles, be sure to put glasses on a few of the sacks.
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post #3736 of 3822 Old 10-06-2017, 06:30 AM
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Just get some crash test dummies or maybe some scarecrows.
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post #3737 of 3822 Old 10-06-2017, 10:08 AM
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post #3738 of 3822 Old 10-06-2017, 06:02 PM
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You are welcome! That's a hard question. Part of the problem in answering it is that we rarely hear single frequencies. We also hear undertones and overtones. Overtones of a frequency may still draw our attention, and we might feel tactile sensations which also provide directional cues. Empirically speaking, though, most people cannot localize a subwoofer at 80Hz or under.

I agree with Gary that you need to let your ears be your guide, but it is perplexing to me that a 60Hz crossover could provide more bass than an 80Hz one with your 5" woofers. It may be that when you tried that crossover last time, you had not yet boosted your subs. In my opinion, you should get significantly better bass at 60Hz, from your sub, than you should from your front speakers. Try listening to something with some good mid-bass, perhaps something like John Wick, during one of the many gunfight scenes. With a sub boost, your Rythmik should walk all over your Ascends as you raise the crossover to 80Hz or higher.

On the other hand, as you raise your crossover, particularly to about 100Hz, you can experiment with using your tone control to augment the mid-bass that your front speakers are playing. Of course, you would have to turn off DEQ to use that feature. That is not something that I would recommend doing with a 60Hz crossover for those speakers. Even the bass boost that DEQ provides to those speakers would worry me a little with a 60Hz crossover. Those are very nice speakers, but they were never designed to play much low bass.

Regards,
Mike
YOU ARE THE MAN! :-)
It's like you gave me so much more control over my sound. I changed it to 110hz crossover and it sounds so much better. In fact, I can easily manipulate lower frequencies by now changing the level of sub. You gave my my LFE back. :-)
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post #3739 of 3822 Old 10-06-2017, 06:46 PM
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YOU ARE THE MAN! :-)
It's like you gave me so much more control over my sound. I changed it to 110hz crossover and it sounds so much better. In fact, I can easily manipulate lower frequencies by now changing the level of sub. You gave my my LFE back. :-)

That's outstanding! I'm glad it worked. The bass is such an important component of HT movie watching.
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post #3740 of 3822 Old 10-06-2017, 07:14 PM
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Mike is the man. He has helped me numerous times, to either tweak something, or just to confirm my thinking was correct.
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post #3741 of 3822 Old 10-07-2017, 05:45 AM
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Mike is the man. He has helped me numerous times, to either tweak something, or just to confirm my thinking was correct.
Thank you for the nice comment! I enjoy being able to help a little, as others have helped me.

Regards,
Mike
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post #3742 of 3822 Old 10-07-2017, 07:31 AM
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That's outstanding! I'm glad it worked. The bass is such an important component of HT movie watching.
Now if I could only do the same to my high frequencies. Currently high frequencies are OK but just a tad muted. If I turn off Audessey or set it to L/R off it makes the sound a bit too harsh for my liking (too much volume in high frequencies). If I could modify it somehow without re-running Audessey, that would be great.

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post #3743 of 3822 Old 10-07-2017, 07:47 AM
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Now if I could only do the same to my high frequencies. Currently high frequencies are OK but just a tad muted. If I turn off Audessey or set it to L/R off it makes the sound a bit too harsh for my liking (too much volume in high frequencies). If I could modify it somehow without re-running Audessey, that would be great.
Have you tried the flat/music curve?

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post #3744 of 3822 Old 10-07-2017, 01:53 PM
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Have you tried the flat/music curve?

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Just did and it's nice to have that option but I wish I could get sound between Audyssey ON and FLAT. Either way, no big deal.

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post #3745 of 3822 Old 10-07-2017, 02:26 PM
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Just did and it's nice to have that option but I wish I could get sound between Audyssey ON and FLAT. Either way, no big deal.
You could try what I did, point the microphone at each speaker when running audyssey. It can be tricky and you need good timing but it causes the kick to see a bit more high frequencies and therefore provide more rolloff. Then you can use the music/flat curve which will now be close to previous reference curve only not using midrange compensation.

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post #3746 of 3822 Old 10-07-2017, 02:28 PM
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Just did and it's nice to have that option but I wish I could get sound between Audyssey ON and FLAT. Either way, no big deal.
Hi,

If you are satisfied with where you are now, then you can stop there. But, if you are willing to keep experimenting, you still have some options to tweak your sound a bit. The Flat curve doesn't attenuate the high frequencies the way that the Audyssey (Reference) curve does. It also doesn't have a dip in the mid-range between 2000Hz and 3000Hz. But, without any high frequency attenuation at all, you may wish for something in between the two, as you said. I think of it as the Goldilocks scenario: Too much; too little; just right.

If you are willing to turn-off DEQ, two things will happen. First, DEQ is slightly boosting the high frequencies. Most of us don't really notice that treble boost much, but on top of Flat, it may be a cumulative thing. So, the first thing that will happen if you turn off DEQ is that you will lose the treble boost that DEQ provides. The second thing that will happen is that your tone controls (which affect the front speakers) will no longer be grayed-out. So, you can try Flat with a decibel or two less treble, or you can try Audyssey with a couple of decibels or so more treble. One of those two options of curve and treble tone control, should get you to that "just right" point.

Of course, when you turn off DEQ, you will also lose the bass boost that DEQ provides. So, if you try that scenario, you will need to use more independent sub boost to compensate. That's no problem, you can use as much as you need to get back to where you were with DEQ engaged. And, with your crossover at 110Hz, I wouldn't mind boosting the bass in the front speakers by a db or two, using that same tone control. There is actually a lot more user adjustability with Audyssey than many people realize, if we are willing to experiment a little to find the particular combination of settings that suits us best.

Regards,
Mike
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post #3747 of 3822 Old 10-07-2017, 03:01 PM
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Mike is the man. He has helped me numerous times, to either tweak something, or just to confirm my thinking was correct.
Thank you for the nice comment! I enjoy being able to help a little, as others have helped me.

Regards,
Mike
You're quite welcome, and I would venture to say you have helped many here.
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post #3748 of 3822 Old 10-07-2017, 04:33 PM
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Hi,

If you are satisfied with where you are now, then you can stop there. But, if you are willing to keep experimenting, you still have some options to tweak your sound a bit. The Flat curve doesn't attenuate the high frequencies the way that the Audyssey (Reference) curve does. It also doesn't have a dip in the mid-range between 2000Hz and 3000Hz. But, without any high frequency attenuation at all, you may wish for something in between the two, as you said. I think of it as the Goldilocks scenario: Too much; too little; just right.

If you are willing to turn-off DEQ, two things will happen. First, DEQ is slightly boosting the high frequencies. Most of us don't really notice that treble boost much, but on top of Flat, it may be a cumulative thing. So, the first thing that will happen if you turn off DEQ is that you will lose the treble boost that DEQ provides. The second thing that will happen is that your tone controls (which affect the front speakers) will no longer be grayed-out. So, you can try Flat with a decibel or two less treble, or you can try Audyssey with a couple of decibels or so more treble. One of those two options of curve and treble tone control, should get you to that "just right" point.

Of course, when you turn off DEQ, you will also lose the bass boost that DEQ provides. So, if you try that scenario, you will need to use more independent sub boost to compensate. That's no problem, you can use as much as you need to get back to where you were with DEQ engaged. And, with your crossover at 110Hz, I wouldn't mind boosting the bass in the front speakers by a db or two, using that same tone control. There is actually a lot more user adjustability with Audyssey than many people realize, if we are willing to experiment a little to find the particular combination of settings that suits us best.

Regards,
Mike
I offer you to move to Wayne, NJ and be my neighbor. I am sure my wife would love to see the beginning of The Dark Night movie (what I usually use to tune my HT) for the 100s time as we make it sound perfect.
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post #3749 of 3822 Old 10-08-2017, 09:31 AM
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Question for you all:

After running Audyssey XT32 why could I not go back to manually using my Graphic EQ settings?

What happened to cause this:

Yesterday I ran an 8 position Audyssey XT32 calibration on my Denon X3300W system shown in my signature below and everything went great. After listening to my system post calibration in both flat and reference I decided I actually liked the sound a bit better when I had used my manual settings. So I turned Audyssey off and went back to my manual settings; however, the Graphic EQ would no longer work. In the end after trying a number of things including a soft reset I had to do a hard reset of the microprocessor then manually put all of my settings back in. Now everything is back to normal.
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post #3750 of 3822 Old 10-08-2017, 03:17 PM
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Question for you all:

After running Audyssey XT32 why could I not go back to manually using my Graphic EQ settings?

What happened to cause this:

Yesterday I ran an 8 position Audyssey XT32 calibration on my Denon X3300W system shown in my signature below and everything went great. After listening to my system post calibration in both flat and reference I decided I actually liked the sound a bit better when I had used my manual settings. So I turned Audyssey off and went back to my manual settings; however, the Graphic EQ would no longer work. In the end after trying a number of things including a soft reset I had to do a hard reset of the microprocessor then manually put all of my settings back in. Now everything is back to normal.

I've never tried what you did, so I don't really know, but Denon and Marantz are part of the same parent company, and I think I remember that, on my Marantz, my choices are Audysey, Audyssey Flat, OFF and Manual. Do you have a "Manual" (rather than an "OFF") option to try? Or is that what you did? It would be great if you could switch back and forth between your manual settings and the Audyssey corrections.

Exactly what do you like better about your manual settings? If it is something simple like "more bass," you can use Audyssey to produce a relatively smooth curve, then turn up the bass for the mains with one of the "true" tone controls -- the bass control -- not the Graphic EQ virtual sliders, since they can't be used with Audyssey. Because turning up a smooth curve is better than turning up a bumpy one, Audyssey can help, even if you are going to change the EQ a bit after using it. Also, the bass and treble controls will only work with DEQ turned off.
Bass "happens" in both the mains (set to "small") and the subwoofer, extending from about 20 Hz to 200/250 Hz. Bass below crossover to the sub (e.g., 80 Hz) can be adjusted after running Audyssey by adjusting the sub trim in the AVR. There are tricks to adjusting the sub level optimally (to your taste), so see:

"Audyssey FAQ Linked Here"
and
"Guide to Subwoofer Levels, Audyssey Setup, and DynamicEQ"
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Last edited by garygarrison; 10-08-2017 at 03:42 PM.
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