"Official" Audyssey thread Part II - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 2718 Old 03-23-2016, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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"Official" Audyssey thread Part II

Continued from "Official" Audyssey thread.

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post #2 of 2718 Old 03-23-2016, 02:02 PM
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Wow a part 2. I'm sure we'll see 3 and 4 later on lol.

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post #3 of 2718 Old 03-23-2016, 02:04 PM
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Wow a part 2. I'm sure we'll see 3 and 4 later on lol.

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Nice to see you here asere!
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Thank you Mike, appreciated! Take care!
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post #5 of 2718 Old 03-23-2016, 02:09 PM
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You don't fool around!
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post #7 of 2718 Old 03-23-2016, 02:29 PM
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This is my first post in Part II. I will try:
  • Posting without quoting -- if you are reading this, it worked.
  • Editing -- if you do not see the attribution of the following paraphrase, it worked: "Not everything that is important is measurable, and not everything that is measurable is important"
  • Making a point -- I would never want to give up the clarity I get with Audyssey. Any harshness in my room is really more like a lack of balance of bass relative to both midrange and treble. This is easy to fix by turning up the sub a bit, or, with some program material, turning up the bass control on FL and FR (not the sliders).
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post #8 of 2718 Old 03-23-2016, 02:57 PM
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Hey, now there is no Edit/Quote/Multi Quote/ Quick Reply button in the old Audyssey Part I thread. How can we follow up some recently started posts from over there?
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post #9 of 2718 Old 03-23-2016, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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You can still manually quote and link to any post in any thread on the site if need be.

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Originally Posted by Mike Lang View Post
You can still manually quote and link to any post in any thread on the site if need be.
Sorry Mike for my ignorance, but how does one quote "manually" if there is no quote button? You know I'm a new kid on the block! Thx.
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post #11 of 2718 Old 03-23-2016, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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There are quote and insert link buttons in the editor.
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post #12 of 2718 Old 03-23-2016, 06:45 PM
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Thanks Mike!!

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Please add link to the actual FAQ since its not easy to find, the title says 'FAQ in post 51779' but there's no way I know to directly enter that post number. Here's the link - "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

I'm new to Denon and Audyssey, I just finished Audyssey calibration on my X2200w. So this is probably answered somewhere in the FAQ or old thread, please forgive me since I didn't find it.

Audyssey reduced levels of all my speakers by -5/-8 dB. I read in the FAQ that its ok to change the levels after calibration but its not clear if this impacts Audyssey? I'm trying to see what effect MultiEQ XT has by turning it on/off. When I turn it off, the volume is much lower because the levels have been turned down. But when I turn it on to Flat/Reference, why does the volume go up? Turning DynamicEQ on makes it even louder.

And setting Dynamic Volume to Off makes things less loud, while the default (Evening) sounds the loudest. I'm not sure what's going on here.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Sorry Mike for my ignorance, but how does one quote "manually" if there is no quote button? You know I'm a new kid on the block! Thx.
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Originally Posted by mogorf
copy the text from original thread and type in a new post in this thread, in brackets, not quotes, "quote=(User ID)" paste copied text here .. and end the quote with a left bracket then /quote followed by a right bracket
See, we can make Feri say anything!
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post #15 of 2718 Old 03-24-2016, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defcon View Post
I'm new to Denon and Audyssey, I just finished Audyssey calibration on my X2200w. So this is probably answered somewhere in the FAQ or old thread, please forgive me since I didn't find it.'
You mean you did not read all 79,638 comments on the original thread? Shame!

Quote:
Audyssey reduced levels of all my speakers by -5/-8 dB. I read in the FAQ that its ok to change the levels after calibration but its not clear if this impacts Audyssey? I'm trying to see what effect MultiEQ XT has by turning it on/off. When I turn it off, the volume is much lower because the levels have been turned down. But when I turn it on to Flat/Reference, why does the volume go up? Turning DynamicEQ on makes it even louder.

And setting Dynamic Volume to Off makes things less loud, while the default (Evening) sounds the loudest. I'm not sure what's going on here.
Audyssey ships with two target responses: flat (or 'music' in Onkyo terminology) and reference (or 'movie' in Onkyo terminology.

Flat is just that, flat measured response across the frequency spectrum, and is much brighter than the sound character that a speaker normally acquires when placed into a confined space that humans are adapted to psychoacoustically. This is the problem that many have with Audyssey room EQ, it sounds too bright to them and they are technically correct in that assessment.

Reference target is slightly attenuated in the treble to try and compensate for the psychoacoustics, but the shape of the attenuation seems to be less than ideal and too mild as well as too limited in range for most tastes. Even so, many people find it helps to use Audyssey because it does smooth the ripple in the frequency response while also tilting the tonal balance toward the treble. Sometimes that smoothing is really helpful, and sometimes the speakers naturally have a bright sound anyway in the particular room, so the flattish reference EQ target can naturally work OK in some systems/rooms.

The receiver relies on Audyssey measurements in quick cal to set levels, subwoofer phase, and crossover frequencies. In full cal, Audyssey also adds the room EQ filter calibration to align the in-room frequency response to the Audyssey canned target response, and tweaks the levels if necessary to re-normalize the target response to industry-standard movie reference level post-EQ.

Not sure what canned EQ target the quick cal result uses, but fairly sure the full cal uses the 'music' or 'flat' target for the cal since that is the simplest way to handle it. I suspect that selecting the 'reference' or 'movie' target just adds the 'reference' or 'movie' target customizations on top of a flat cal if desired, rather than vice versa.

When you run your full setup rather than the quick setup, your receiver might ask you whether you want to use the default reference/movie target, or override it with the flat/music target, or disable Audyssey entirely. You can manually select any of the three if you like at any time, but the default is what you will get when you switch your source selector between inputs. If Audyssey room EQ works for you, you should probably select the reference/movie target that the setup routine defaults to because that target is naturally going to work better in most scenarios.

The full setup might also ask you if you want Dynamic EQ enabled by default, and the default choice in the setup routine is probably going to be enabled.

For the technical background on Dynamic EQ, you need the following article from Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

Quote:
An equal-loudness contour is a measure of sound pressure (dB SPL), over the frequency spectrum, for which a listener perceives a constant loudness when presented with pure steady tones.
So from this info it is apparent that the Dynamic EQ function relies on the calibrated reference level in order for the volume control setting to actually represent the same post-cal level every time the cal completes. Shifting the trims up or down will alter that reference level, resulting in too much or too little EQ being applied by the Dynamic EQ control.

Even though I do not use Audyssey Room EQ, I do use Dynamic EQ. My receiver allows me to disable the Room EQ but still enable Dynamic EQ, something that Audyssey claims is invalid (but it works fine even without any room EQ let alone with graphic EQ). Lower level receiver models probably will not let you select Dynamic EQ without also using room EQ.

If you leave Dynamic EQ enabled in the full setup routine, you might also be asked if you want Dynamic Volume enabled by default, and the default choice in the setup routine is probably going to be disabled.

While DEQ shifts the tonal balance by boosting bass and treble as the volume setting decreases below 0dB e.g. -20dB, DV shifts the volume balance by adding dynamic compression, i.e. reducing the difference in loudness between the loudest sounds and the softest sounds, as the volume control setting decreases below 0dB. Note that you will only see that dB in your volume control setting if your receiver supports relative volume display as opposed to absolute volume display that just puts some number between 0 and maybe 80 or so on the display as you turn up the volume.

DV is most handy for listening to movies at low volume, where the dialog is lost under the subwoofer thunder.

Unfortunately, my receiver does not allow me to use DV without also enabling DEQ, so even though I try to selectively boost the dialog with DV, the subwoofer level still pops back up with the DEQ function. I still end up playing with that reference level offset even when all I need is some dynamic compression because I have to dereference the DEQ enough that it does not defeat the purpose of using DV.

So eventually I gave up on DV entirely because it was such a pain to try to set it during a movie where the subwoofer is only intermittently rumbling. Instead, I started selecting the Dolby sound track instead of DTS and using the 'Late Night' function in the Dolby decoder that ships with the receiver. Dolby decoder has two built-in dynamic compression settings 'Low' and 'High' that seem to be based upon embedded program control signal rather than on-the-fly compression. The behavior is more predictable than DV and best of all, it does not require that DEQ be enabled.

Note that the 'Late Night' function of Dolby compression is disabled on Dolby stereo program (despite the control setting still appearing to function) because stereo Dolby is already compressed for compatibility with cheap TV speakers/amps, so selecting the stereo Dolby track is another way to get dynamic compression. I suspect the same applies to any stereo DTS program being similarly compressed.

Most DVD and Blu Ray players also have a built-in dynamic compression function and it also usually defaults to 'on', so if you want to experience the full dynamic range of your movies you will have to go into the setup of your player and turn off the compression. Most broadcast and cable TV seems to also be similarly compressed for compatibility with cheap TV/HTIB (home theater in a box) systems operated by unenlightened users so that is one really good reason to buy your movies and music on disc as opposed to just streaming on-demand from a provider and receiving what amounts to distorted reception. Others may have better info how to get around that but my experience with Xfinity is that there is no way to disable the dynamic compression and it seems to be hard-coded into the stream.

If there is no Dolby sound track and I want to listen in surround without blasting my neighbors with the dynamic range of the program, my fall-back scenario is to set the mute function on my remote to -10dB and use a quick jab at the mute button to manually cut the level during the thunder. This means some pre-emptive action is required as the excitement level of the program escalates, but sometimes a brief boom gets through anyway since it is impossible to anticipate every explosion in every movie except Munich. More budget-oriented receivers may not allow you to program the level offset of the mute button so you might have to use the volume control to use that method.

Both the Dynamic EQ function and the Dynamic Volume function are affected by changing the trim levels because doing so changes the calibrated reference level that these functions depend upon to have a predictable volume control setting for a given loudness in SPL dBs in the room.

You should read this thread on the Audyssey web site (just the first three comments will do it, including two by Chris Kyriakakis):

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries...eference-level

Quote:
The Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset provides three offsets from the film level reference (5 dB, 10 dB, and 15 dB) that can be selected when the mix level of the content is not within the standard.
Quote:
In AVRs that don't have the Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset feature, you can achieve the same thing by turning down the digital input trim for that source. Onkyo calls it IntelliVolume.
If the sound of Dynamic EQ is too heavy and bright, you can back off the boost it applies at frequency extremes by de-referencing the calibration. The 'Reference Level Offset' in my receiver allows me to do that without disrupting the actual reference level in the 'Relative' volume knob display mode (full theater level equals 0dB), but the offset between volume knob setting reported on the display panel versus volume knob setting used by the Dynamic EQ function that can be achieved with that 'Reference Level Offset' is limited to a one-sided adjustment. It is intended for programming that is still pretty much 'reference level calibrated' but has 'dynamic range compression', a form of limiting that squashes the louder and softer sounds in the program into a narrower volume range.

So for all my LP rips that I typically record with a lower level because warps/rumble tend to saturate the program level, I still have to use the 'Intellivolume' setting to turn UP the program in order to get the correct amount of Dynamic EQ. My LPs tend to date back to the days from before dynamic compression was added to the 'loudness wars' arsenal, where the marketing department at recording companies decided to shamelessly exploit the psychoacoustic tendency for louder programming to sound better by compressing the dynamics as much as possible.

I set the Dynamic EQ offset by ear, playing with volume control and 'Reference Level Offset' or 'Intellivolume' until the level and tonal balance sounds natural. I tend to set it with vocal or midrange/uppper bass content rather than the bass guitar/drum content, since it really takes tones with harmonic spectrum spanning a substantial range of the EQ curve in order to set it properly. The bass/drums are too limited in range/too percussive to hear that tonal balance properly.

Dynamic Volume also relies upon the calibrated reference level for its own volume control input signal. Both DEQ and DV change the amount of compensation they apply as the volume control setting changes, but they provide two separate functions that apply two different forms of compensation.
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post #16 of 2718 Old 03-24-2016, 06:58 AM
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I'm not sure what's going on here.
Neither am I, in some cases. Some of the choices made by Audyssey seem to be quite arbitrary to me.

One other thing you should be aware of is that both Audyssey Dynamic EQ and THX Loudness Plus functions are loudness compensation algorithms that are primarily designed to compensate the tonal balance for changes in listening level, but they also change one other thing too.

Both algorithms boost the surround levels a little when enabled, although the boost in surround level with Audyssey Dynamic EQ is quite noticeable whereas the boost in surround level with THX Loudness Plus seems to be so mild as to be unnoticeable to me (or not implemented to spec in my receiver). THX Loudness Plus compensation also seems to add much less bass and treble boost too, equivalent to about -10dB on the 'reference level offset' menu for DEQ, or equivalent to about -10dB on the 'Intellivolume' input level offset adjustment for DEQ.

Most probable explanation for doing this surround level boost in the loudness compensation algorithm is that customers complained that the surround channels that contain mainly ambiance at low level are inaudible at low volume control settings. So brilliant solution is to turn them up when enabling the loudness compensation that is typically used when listening at low levels.

The end result of the too bright room EQ target, the loudness boost at frequency extremes, and the overly boosted surround channels with DEQ is that the music/effects in the surround channels, and the subwoofer boom in the LFE channel, still swamp the dialog despite your best efforts to use DV to compensate for the buried dialog.

If you habitually use DEQ it can help to cut the surround channel levels by about -1dB if you tend to listen at higher volume, or about -2dB if you tend to listen at lower volume.

If you habitually use THX Loudness Plus you probably do not need to adjust the surround levels at all, but then you also have to use THX sound modes too and that means that the sound mode adds 'decorrelation' phase modification to enhance the perceived separation between channels. Decorrelation makes the sound phasy to my ears and I consider it undesirable so I never use THX sound modes. If your receiver is not THX rated (most budget receivers are not) it probably lacks any THX functions.
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post #18 of 2718 Old 03-24-2016, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Defcon View Post
Please add link to the actual FAQ since its not easy to find, the title says 'FAQ in post 51779' but there's no way I know to directly enter that post number. Here's the link - "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

I'm new to Denon and Audyssey, I just finished Audyssey calibration on my X2200w. So this is probably answered somewhere in the FAQ or old thread, please forgive me since I didn't find it.

Audyssey reduced levels of all my speakers by -5/-8 dB. I read in the FAQ that its ok to change the levels after calibration but its not clear if this impacts Audyssey? I'm trying to see what effect MultiEQ XT has by turning it on/off. When I turn it off, the volume is much lower because the levels have been turned down. But when I turn it on to Flat/Reference, why does the volume go up? Turning DynamicEQ on makes it even louder.

And setting Dynamic Volume to Off makes things less loud, while the default (Evening) sounds the loudest. I'm not sure what's going on here.

Not sure why you linked to page 1295 of the original thread, but here is the link to the post that links directly to the FAQ:

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

And some answers to your questions from the FAQ:

Is it OK to change the trim levels Audyssey sets?

What is Dynamic Volume?
What is Dynamic EQ?
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^^

Wow, those were two really prolific posts containing a lot of good, and some slightly misleading information. For instance, the Audyssey target curve is not the Flat curve, it is the Audyssey Reference curve, which has a slight treble roll-off, and a mid-range compensation (BBC dip) between about 2000Hz and 3000Hz. That curve and the contrasting Flat curve are displayed in the FAQ, linked below. After running an Audyssey calibration, the AVR will automatically default to the Reference curve, with DEQ enabled.

Some people like the Reference curve and some don't. I don't personally care for either the treble roll-off that occurs on all channels, or for the mid-range dip that occurs on all channels. Instead, I prefer to use Flat, and then selectively roll-off a little treble on just my front speakers, using the tone controls. YMMV!

The idea behind the DEQ surround boost was that low and high frequency sounds drop-off faster for sounds coming from behind the listener. Starting from that questionable premise (to put it kindly) a surround boost was added. It equates to 1db of surround boost for every 5db below Reference. So, at a MV of -15, there is a 3db surround boost, at -20 there is a 4db boost, and so on. RLO (Reference Level Offset) was added later as a way to adjust DEQ for people who didn't like quite as much low frequency or surround boost.

Many people prefer DEQ for movies, but fewer seem to use it for music. Alternative approaches include doing an in-house bass boost (mainly by boosting the sub volumes, although some people also add bass via the tone controls). Again, YMMV. Tone controls cannot be used in conjunction with DEQ, but using them will not invalidate the Audyssey calibration, just as adjusting crossovers, distances, and levels will not invalidate the calibration.

The best advice is typically to work hard on set-up, and calibration technique, to achieve the best possible calibration, and meanwhile to experiment with whatever settings are desired, as partly described above, to find the combination of settings that best work for you. A number of people, including myself, use slightly (or sometimes even very) different settings for music and movies, and sometimes that tweaking extends to individual movies as well. It helps to give yourself time to discover what really works best in your specific circumstances, and a willingness to experiment will probably facilitate that effort.

Regards,
Mike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Not sure why you linked to page 1295 of the original thread, but here is the link to the post that links directly to the FAQ:

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

And some answers to your questions from the FAQ:

Is it OK to change the trim levels Audyssey sets?

What is Dynamic Volume?
What is Dynamic EQ?
Not sure what you mean, I had the same link.

I've read those FAQs and it still wasn't clear to me hence I asked. Dynamic Volume is meant to reduce sudden changes in volume, but with it enabled, even scenes with just dialogue and nothing else are much louder, so I think its raising the level of all speakers to do it. It sounds much nicer with DV on, but its impossible to do an A/B with DV on/off since the loudness is so different, even in scenes with no dynamic range.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defcon View Post
Not sure what you mean, I had the same link.

I've read those FAQs and it still wasn't clear to me hence I asked. Dynamic Volume is meant to reduce sudden changes in volume, but with it enabled, even scenes with just dialogue and nothing else are much louder, so I think its raising the level of all speakers to do it. It sounds much nicer with DV on, but its impossible to do an A/B with DV on/off since the loudness is so different, even in scenes with no dynamic range.
Perhaps this is what you said, but DV compresses the content. You can view it as the loudest being reduced or the lowest being raised, but it allows the volume control to be lowered to lower the overall SPL level while still being able to hear the lowest sounds. Think "late night listening."

It is not a limiter.
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post #22 of 2718 Old 03-24-2016, 11:24 AM
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Not sure what you mean, I had the same link.
OK, weird...I re-checked your link, and it does indeed end up in the same place, but first it goes to the top of page 1295 and then after a couple seconds it re-directs you to the correct post. I just didn't wait long enough for the re-direct.

My link goes directly to the post.


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I've read those FAQs and it still wasn't clear to me hence I asked. Dynamic Volume is meant to reduce sudden changes in volume, but with it enabled, even scenes with just dialogue and nothing else are much louder, so I think its raising the level of all speakers to do it. It sounds much nicer with DV on, but its impossible to do an A/B with DV on/off since the loudness is so different, even in scenes with no dynamic range.
DV is working correctly on your AVR...but it should definitely NOT "sound much nicer". It is severely compressing the dynamic range...and dynamic range is what is desirable, not the lack of it.

DV should only be used for late-night viewing when you don't want to wake the family or disturb the neighbors. It should never be used for any sort of critical listening.
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post #23 of 2718 Old 03-24-2016, 12:48 PM
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The net result of compression on a highly dynamic input signal would be the average volume going up. But on a scene with very little dynamic range, e.g. just 1 person talking, DV should not have much (or any) effect, right? Since there is no range to analyze and compress. Yet its louder with DV turned on.

I've used this feature on other brands (e.g. Yamaha calls it adaptive DRC) and it works as intended but was never this drastic. With the Denon I have to boost the MV almost 5-10dB with DV off no matter what content is playing to match.

I found this in one of the 'ask Audyssey' official blogs -

"During soft scenes it's normal to have some boost in level. During regular dialog Dynamic Volume does not apply any compensation because it uses that for reference. During loud scenes it turns the volume down automatically."

The italics part is what I also expect to happen but doesn't seem like it does. I know everyone says to turn DV off for accurate listening but at Light setting how much range compression is being applied?

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post #24 of 2718 Old 03-24-2016, 03:35 PM
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It sounds much nicer with DV on, but its impossible to do an A/B with DV on/off since the loudness is so different, even in scenes with no dynamic range.
If someone is an apartment dweller with thin walls, has a baby sleeping, or the like, DV can be useful. IMO, it is a form of distortion, though. With music sources, if someone actually likes DV (rather than having to use it for reasons like the ones above) chances are that they wouldn't like the sound of a live orchestra, at least up close. A few movies have outrageous dynamics, especially in the LFE, but most do not, IMO. Some apartment dwellers living above the first floor put a few layers of carpet remnants and/or neoprene under their subwoofer to keep it from shaking the floor too much.

None of the following may be important, but it is fun (for me) to think about. DV shouldn't affect normal dialog, but DEQ may, especially with deep male voices. Dialog that sounds "louder" with DEQ on may be getting bass and treble boost, with the midrange being held constant. It is my understanding that "loudness" can be considered a perceptual phenomenon, while Sound Pressure Level (SPL) is a physical one. The old continuously variable "loudness" controls (e.g., Centralab) on Hi Fi gear would boost bass, and to a lesser degree, treble as the volume control was turned down, the goal being to hold the perceived "loudness" constant. The very different "volume" control came about in the early days of radio and AV and was intended to allow the signal to be adjusted to match the volume of the room, literally. DEQ was designed to be an improvement on the old "loudness" controls. Bass boost by DEQ would turn up the perceived "loudness" more than SPL, but would have the effect of elevating both, if the SPL is being measured full band. Audyssey evidently sets SPL for each channel by looking at the frequencies between 500 and 2K only. I doubt if DEQ does much in this range, but I don't know for sure.

My family and I have very occasionally had problems with dialog intelligibility when there is a strong accent involved (e.g., Cockney), but we have never had dialog swamped by loud special effects. The mixers usually do a marvelous job in this regard.
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post #25 of 2718 Old 03-24-2016, 03:38 PM
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Please add link to the actual FAQ since its not easy to find, the title says 'FAQ in post 51779' but there's no way I know to directly enter that post number. Here's the link - "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

I'm new to Denon and Audyssey, I just finished Audyssey calibration on my X2200w. So this is probably answered somewhere in the FAQ or old thread, please forgive me since I didn't find it.

Audyssey reduced levels of all my speakers by -5/-8 dB. I read in the FAQ that its ok to change the levels after calibration but its not clear if this impacts Audyssey? I'm trying to see what effect MultiEQ XT has by turning it on/off. When I turn it off, the volume is much lower because the levels have been turned down. But when I turn it on to Flat/Reference, why does the volume go up? Turning DynamicEQ on makes it even louder.

And setting Dynamic Volume to Off makes things less loud, while the default (Evening) sounds the loudest. I'm not sure what's going on here.
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The net result of compression on a highly dynamic input signal would be the average volume going up. But on a scene with very little dynamic range, e.g. just 1 person talking, DV should not have much (or any) effect, right? Since there is no range to analyze and compress. Yet its louder with DV turned on.

I've used this feature on other brands (e.g. Yamaha calls it adaptive DRC) and it works as intended but was never this drastic. With the Denon I have to boost the MV almost 5-10dB with DV off no matter what content is playing to match.

I found this in one of the 'ask Audyssey' official blogs -

"During soft scenes it's normal to have some boost in level. During regular dialog Dynamic Volume does not apply any compensation because it uses that for reference. During loud scenes it turns the volume down automatically."

The italics part is what I also expect to happen but doesn't seem like it does. I know everyone says to turn DV off for accurate listening but at Light setting how much range compression is being applied?

Hi,

I decided to quote two of your recent posts in an effort to help a little bit (I hope). First, I can't tell you much about Dynamic Volume, and as far as I can remember, it hasn't been discussed much on the thread. Knowing that it compresses the dynamic range, it just isn't a feature that many people have wanted to explore, or measure. On the other hand, if you really need to use it at night, with children sleeping or something, you wouldn't really care how much it was compressing things. You would just pick the lightest setting you could get away with, and wait for better times to play without compression.

So, you may get an answer to your question, but if you don't, it isn't rudeness. Most people on the thread have not historically been very interested in Dynamic Volume. As an example, I like to experiment with everything in my AVR, and especially anything Audyssey related, but I have never even turned on Dynamic Volume. It simply doesn't do anything that I would want.

What I would like to help with, though, is your first question where you were talking about the levels that Audyssey set for your speakers, and the fact that you were having to turn up your MV more than you used to with your Yamaha. I don't know what Yamaha was doing in setting levels, but I can tell you that what Audyssey did is to equalize your various channels to play at equal loudness at your MLP (mic. position 1). And it set those levels relative to THX Reference.

So, whether you have to play your new AVR at a higher MV level than you did your old one is sort of irrelevant. You just set your MV at a comfortable listening level (most people base it on dialogue) and you are good to go. If you didn't hear as well out of one ear as the other ( a head cold can even do that) you might have a reason to adjust trim levels. But doing it because you are playing at a higher MV level than you were used to before would be pointless.

The two trim levels which are most likely to require occasional (or permanent) adjustment are the sub level and the CC level, in that order. From what I have seen, the great majority of people increase their sub levels post-Audyssey. I would say that the average boost is probably 3 to 6db, although some people add much more boost than that. CC boosts are probably more situation-specific for movies with harder to understand dialogue, or which feature more surround boost, for instance.

But knowing that people are likeliest to change sub or CC trim levels, and may want to do so during a program, those trim levels are accessible in the Audio Menu in Denon/Marantz receivers. That way you can adjust without missing anything. I hope that this explanation helps a little. Just give yourself a little time to get used to Audyssey, and a little time to experiment with settings to find out what you really like: Reference vs. Flat, DEQ (with or without RLO) or off altogether, sometimes one and sometimes the other, etc.

Regards,
Mike
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Hi Mike, thanks for your help and detailed post. I don't have any worries about disturbing others, I'm just trying to find the best sounding solution. I know the standard advice is to leave DV off and DEQ on and I am very willing to try that combination and turn up the MV as needed. I can detect a very audible and undesirable compression at Heavy and sometimes at Medium levels. But with DV set to Light things sound much nicer than with DV off and volume turned up to get the same SPL.

w.r.t Yamaha vs Denon, I believe Yamaha calibration would also set trim levels similarly. My question is - if post Audyssey I turn up the trim on each speaker by 3dB, thus preserving their relative levels as set by Audyssey, does it affect anything? That would still preserve the balance. And Audyssey is still working with these trims or does it ignore them if I modify? This is just theoretical as I don't plan on doing this, I can just increase the MV.

I think DEQ is the real gem as I like the theory behind it and I'm getting much more out of the surrounds and sub since I don't listen near reference. So far I'm very happy with the switch, next step is to learn how to integrate my 2nd sub (I don'thave XT32 to help) and experiment more with the settings.
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Hi Mike, thanks for your help and detailed post. I don't have any worries about disturbing others, I'm just trying to find the best sounding solution. I know the standard advice is to leave DV off and DEQ on and I am very willing to try that combination and turn up the MV as needed. I can detect a very audible and undesirable compression at Heavy and sometimes at Medium levels. But with DV set to Light things sound much nicer than with DV off and volume turned up to get the same SPL.

w.r.t Yamaha vs Denon, I believe Yamaha calibration would also set trim levels similarly. My question is - if post Audyssey I turn up the trim on each speaker by 3dB, thus preserving their relative levels as set by Audyssey, does it affect anything? That would still preserve the balance. And Audyssey is still working with these trims or does it ignore them if I modify? This is just theoretical as I don't plan on doing this, I can just increase the MV.

I think DEQ is the real gem as I like the theory behind it and I'm getting much more out of the surrounds and sub since I don't listen near reference. So far I'm very happy with the switch, next step is to learn how to integrate my 2nd sub (I don'thave XT32 to help) and experiment more with the settings.

You are very welcome, and I am glad to hear that you are already enjoying Audyssey. You certainly don't have to leave Dynamic Volume off if there is something about it that you like. I think everyone just wanted you to know that it compresses the dynamic range to some extent.

I am also glad (and Feri will be even gladder ) to hear that you are enjoying DEQ. Feri is DEQ's unofficial, or perhaps official, champion. And it can make movies sound pretty exciting.

With respect to turning up the individual trim levels by 3db, you already know that it would have the same effect as simply increasing the MV. The downside is that it would skew DEQ slightly, as your individual speakers would no longer be calibrated relative to Reference. It wouldn't mess up the filters that Audyssey set for the individual speakers, just their relationship to Reference. I think it would be more important if you wanted to know where you were with respect to Reference. Otherwise it wouldn't do any real harm, since DEQ would still be working--just not with exact correspondence to Reference. But it would also be pointless, so there's that.

Regards,
Mike
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Thought this thread was perhaps indicating I had missed something about the impending new Audyssey release as Chris K alludes to on the FB page.
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post #29 of 2718 Old 03-24-2016, 04:36 PM
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Thought this thread was perhaps indicating I had missed something about the impending new Audyssey release as Chris K alludes to on the FB page.

Hi,

I haven't heard anything about that. The new thread came about because people were tired of posting/editing issues with the very long original thread. Part II was literally born in an instant.

But I would love to know more about impending Audyssey releases if you hear anything else.

Regards,
Mike
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Hi,

I haven't heard anything about that. The new thread came about because people were tired of posting/editing issues with the very long original thread. Part II was literally born in an instant.

But I would love to know more about impending Audyssey releases if you hear anything else.

Regards,
Mike
Feri was the one who drew the comment a week or so ago...."LOL Feri. After all these years you still keep trying to ask me about future developments. I can say that we are working on something very cool for 2016 release. It will make hard core Audyssey fans happy. And, no, we are not leaving the room correction business."
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