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Do I need or want more power

3K views 30 replies 9 participants last post by  Chazman 
#1 ·
I have read and read,FAC's and threads for months. I'm more unsure than ever! I would really appreciate your input....
I have just purchased a Marantz SR-6010. My plan was/is to use a good Reciever as a preamp as money is a factor. I couldn't afford the 7010, got an insane deal on the 6010! and thought since I plan to amp up anyway......
The Marantz seems ok so far, still playing with it but I am really wanting more power already.
I have
Def Tech BP2000 front l/r
Def Tech BP-10's surrounds
For now my center is a Def Tech BPX surround. I know. I can't find a Clr 2500 and can't decide what to do.
It's all in a smaller 10x15 room for now. I plan to add DTS-x/Atmos speakers when I move and have a more functional room. I love listening to music, the wife loves movies.

So, my dilema? I am wanting a Emotiva XPA-5. I think anyway. I even have the money set aside even though there could be other things for it.
Is this I good addition? Too much? I don't think so. But I have always believed you can't have enough power. I have always liked to "feel my music" I have a hard time listening to it any other way.

Is this a good setup/ plan?
Is there another route i should consider?
Are there any promotions or deals on Emotiva anymore? New seems a wiser choice than used? Is gen 2 better than 1. 3 isn't worth it?

Trust me I have 50 more things to talk about but I'm trying to stay calm so you guys don't run....thnx
 
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#2 ·
Based on what you posted your next purchase should be a good subwoofer, not an amp! A sub will make a bigger difference to your system than an external amp.

Use the money you set aside for the XPA-5 to get a SVS, Rythmik, Hsu or other quality sub. Adding a sub to handle the low frequencies also makes it easier for your receiver to drive the other 5 speakers. You win on both ends!

This Def Tech center should do the trick for you.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...gclid=CJOJgqeLq8wCFRSPfgodIJEDmw&gclsrc=aw.ds

Best Buy sells it too for $50 more
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/definit...=3&ksaffcode=pg36984&ksdevice=c&ref=212&loc=1

You dont need a subwoofer in a center channel speaker like the CLR 2500 offers.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Holy crap you got bp 10s for surrounds! Those are my mains I use upstairs. Yea more power is probably more of a need than a want.

There are going to be times when the soundtrack needs to drive all of them at once, your marantz is going to struggle.

As mentioned sub will help and I would start with but both amp and sub would be preferred.
 
#5 ·
Yea, the bp10's were just sitting there so that's what I'm using. I got a killer deal on all 4 def techs. Not gonna believe this. 2- BP- 2000, 2- BP-10, 1- BPX surround all for $350.00!! At a Salvation Army no less. My wife found them. She called me and said they had some speakers that looked like my system that was stolen.
The rest is history. I had to replace 2 drivers, definitive tech-guy hooked me up...Good to go
 
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#4 ·
I do have the 2, 400watt(I think) subs built into the bp2000's
Plus I have a pioneer Andrew jones behind the couch for a little more shake during movies.
 
#6 ·
That's crazy $350!. I've had my bp 10's for over 12 years now and couldn't be more happy.

My brother is looking for 5.1 now, his budge was around $800 bucks so we settled on some polks but damn wish I could have found him what you got for that price.
 
#9 ·
Fair enough. I know, I won't die if I don't add an amp but is this a wise choice for what I have. I guess that's what I'm trying to get some input on.
I'm new to receivers. If they don't put out the power they are spec'd at am I not hearing what my speakers could really do? Does the Marantz have enough on demand for my listening levels and for how long. Why can I turn the volume to 90, I'm scared to go past that. I'm used to 50 or 60 but that was 10 years ago with Acurus amps.
 
#8 ·
Are you getting distortion at your current listening volume? Are you not able to reach a high enough volume with the Marantz? If the answer is no to both of those then no you don't need an amp. You may want one though.

What do you think is actually lacking about your current system?
 
#10 ·
No distortion but it really seems to plane out, nothing left, running on fumes. I mean I'm at 90 on the volume.
I guess what is lacking is money to play harder. I just want the best for what I've got, add a little here and there when I can.
I just lack confidence in a receivers ability to power what I have now and the atmos later.
I read these speakers only come alive at a minimum of 200 watts. Makes a guy wonder .....
 
#14 ·
the number 90 has no meaning that you or I can discern regarding the output of the receiver. Might be 5 watts, might be 50 . . . etc.

When an amp runs out of gas, it distorts. That's what happens. There is also dynamic compression involved but the distortion will be audible long before the compression is noticeable (if it ever is). If an amp is appropriately designed (acurate frequency response, low output impedance, etc.) then as long as it has enough power to reach the levels you play at without audible distortion, more power will not make a difference. Physical laws of the universe prevent one amp from delivering a different flavor of 100 watts, for example, into any given speaker.

Especially with music, average levels on the recording can very a ton. So perhaps the Pink Floyd is less dynamically compressed and has a lower average level on the CD or whatever. The power needed to get that average recorded level to the level you want is exactly the same - - a "louder" CD doesn't use less power to get to any given SPL with your speakers, but it does require a different volume control setting than a "quieter" CD. And, FWIW, the "quieter" (on average) CD may have peak levels that are significantly "more louder" compared to the average level, than the "louder" CD, and when reproducing those peaks, it's possible a person might drive an amp into distortion, for the peaks, even though they are listening at exactly the same average level as they use for "Louder" CDs.

Anyway, bottom line is if you aren't distorting the amp, you won't gain anything but placebo effect from simply adding more power (all other things being equal). Your speakers probably start compressing and certainly distort way more [figure a factor of 10, anyway] than the amp by the time they reach about half of their rated ("this'll blow 'em up") power. When the speakers compress, your playback becomes inaccurate. But it might sound louder overall because while you aren't getting the peaks at full volume, the average level is higher . . . and to most people, distorted sound sounds lewder at the same SPL
 
#16 ·
Thank you, that was cool. I love learning about stuff I love. I am trying to learn more about the compression of music or whatever. On the Marantz it has stuff to alter that and I want to know exactly I'm changing and why. I thought the Audyssey xt-32 was gonna blow my mind with its ability and ease but it's only confused me and buried my nose in reading so far. What you say makes so much sence , I want to know more, especially about speakers compressing and distortion.
If it's not possible for for amps to deliver different "flavors of a 100 watts" than why does the Marantz sound so much different than the onkyo. Even on pure direct.
I'm also interested in what Brian said about headroom, a word I've heard but never took the time to understand it. If it's that important I want to learn more...
 
#20 ·
Headroom is available clean power in excess of what you use. You need lots of headroom over, say, dialog levels when listening to movies, because the peaks may call for 100 times more power. (And dialog probably uses half a watt or less in most setups . . . even at "reference"). If I have enough clean power to hit the peaks without distortion at my listening levels, headroom above that is a lovely thing to think about, may make me sleep better at night, but cannot yield an audible difference. Look up Ohm's law. Voltage, current and resistance (called impedance in AC circuits) are subject to a strict mathematical relationship, immutable as gravity, at least on the physical scale of wires, speakers and amps (versus subatomic or interstellar size ranges) and at temperatures significantly above absolute zero. Unlike gravity, people who don't believe Ohm's law really applies are unlikely to think they can fly out of a 10th story window and crash to their deaths, or otherwise meet horrific ends as opposed to people who don't believe in gravity.

What the power amp multiplies is voltage (and the speaker responds linearly to voltage changes). Current (amps) is needed from the amp, too, but the current for any given voltage is fixed by the speaker's impedance. It's more complex than a DC circuit with a resistor, because the speaker's impedance is different at different frequencies, and since real content has constantly-changing frequency, umm, content, the net impedance the amp "sees" is constantly changing. But for the impedance the speaker presents at any given instant with real content, the amp cannot deliver the voltage called for by it's amplification factor and also deliver either more or less current. Physical laws of the universe prevent it from sending more current than the impedance of the speaker calls for at the given voltage, and if the amp cannot supply enough current, it the same physical laws mean it will not send full voltage. At least in some settings, that's called voltage "sag," and whether it's caused by the amp running out of current or the amp not being to swing the required voltage it's the basic culprit behind harmonic distortion from amps.

Assuming you are a human being, it's possible that the differences you perceive between the two devices are placebo effect - the same thing that causes some people to get over their headaches when they take a sugar pill they think is medicine. Man did I spend lots of years and more than a few dollars chasing placebo effects in electronics, but that's a story fo another day. It's an unavoidable part of being human, occurs, AIUI, largely on a subconscious level so we cannot control it, and may yield results that differ from the known ability of the less subconscious preexisting bias to affect our perceptions.

If the differences between your devices are real, the only way it can be power related is if one amp has detectable (even if you don't identify it as distortion) distortion. If there is an audible difference at lower levels, one of the devices (or, I suppose, both) is not behaving linearly. Some amps are designed not to be linear in the audible frequency ranges. For example, in the 80s, AIUI, lots of British higher-end amps rolled off the high frequencies a bit. That difference would be audible on any speaker that did not roll highs off itself so much that it masked the amp's nonlinearity. Sounded good to lots of folks, especially with early digital, but technically not accurate amplification. Of course if some EQ is turned on in the preamp section of one of the devices, the system's output will be as nonlinear as the EQ calls for and that could explain the difference. Audyssey certainly qualifies.

AIUI, another possibility, not likely with modern solid state amps, is a high enough output impedance from the power amp that it's otherwise linear frequency response varies when it's presented with a difficult load. (while AFAIK you can just plug the impedance number into Ohm's law where resistance would go to calculated instantaneous current at any given voltage, impedance is a more complex phenomenon, containing not only a resistance element but other attributes, all of which vary with frequency, and that may make the amp respond differently at different frequencies. The folks at Stereophile.com do bench testing of amps they review. With very rare exceptions, the solid state amps, driven into what is supposed to be a very difficult test load, show frequency response variations of less than a tenth of a decibel (dB), a difference that, AIUI, is generally considered utterly inaudible. But a very few solid state amps (usually exotic high high dollar babies) and more than half of tube power amps will have variations that may reach half a dB or more, which, if the dip or peak is broad enough, may be noticeable in critical listening.
 
#23 ·
^^

You are very welcome! It may sound weird to say this in an age of instant gratification, but I think getting there is half the fun of the hobby. :) The more you play with your system, and your room, and tweak things to improve the sound quality, the more you learn. And the more you learn, the more you can improve the sound quality. I actually enjoy the process.
 
#24 ·
my main purpose for more/external amp was for higher spl.

edit....if my subs hit 110 and my mains can only hit 100, maybe some more juice is needed(if they can handle more juice that is)
 
#26 ·
Maybe, maybe not. Movies' LFE channel (the .1 in 5.1 or 7.1 system) is turned up by 10 dB automatically. So the theoretical max levels for center, left and right and surround speakers, at "reference" is 105 dB each, while the max level for the LFE channel is 115 dB. Once you use bass management to send low frequencies from the mains to the subs, the subwoofer channel will be even "more louder" than the mains, if that's a useful phrase. With the caveat that once I engage dynamic EQ, the bass goes up even more, relatively speaking, (i.e. the sub is even more more louder) I don't worry about those max SPL levels because I never play movies even -10 dB from reference. So my pre-bass management and pre-EQ max possible levels are less than 105 for the sub and less than 95 for each main speaker (theoretically - AFAIK no real movie content pushes the surrounds to full scale levels although games, they say, may be different).

So the 10 dB difference may simply be in line with what you need to play through the sub cleanly while still being in reasonably appropriate calibration with the mains . . . IMO, IME, YMMV etc.
 
#27 ·
Ok. I have played with this Marantz 6010. It's either not working correctly or not for me.
Listening to music. It sounds so hollow, no punch or depth. Muffled. Restricted.
I hope those words help.
Settings.
Mains are set to small, crossovers at 90 for both front and rears (bp2000's, bp10's)
Subs are at 80hz. Answer to question earlier they are hooked up through the sub outputs on Reciever. Subwoofer level adjust- on
Cinema eq- off
M-Dax- high
The only way it seemed to sound close was with multiEQ XT32 off. With it on I tried changing everything listening to the same song over and over to hear the difference.
The only way it sounds the clearest is in pure direct but the I can't have it in 5 channel if I want and the subs aren't the same.
Not not saying my Onkyo txnr 737 was a better Reciever but I had no issues with the sound. I thought I was upgrading with the Marantz.
I read the Audyssey link you guys sent and changed a couple things according to it and thought that was gonna be the answer. It sounded even quieter and restricted.
So I guess my question at this point is, has anyone else ran across this or read about something like this on here before? Anymore suggestions or links to them?
Should I post this in a new topic as it has changed somewhat?
Glad you guys slowed me down on buying an amp, what good would it have done if I can't get a signal I'm happy with.
Again...
Mains, Def Techs BP2000's. Biamped which I now know means nothing
Rears, Def Techs BP10's
Subs, Def Techs built in 15"x 300w in both Mains, 1-Pioneer Andrew Jones
Center Def Tech, 1-BPX surround (temporary)
AVR- Matantz SR-6010
All matching, good quality cables and 12awg wires
 
#29 ·
Ok. I have played with this Marantz 6010. It's either not working correctly or not for me.
Listening to music. It sounds so hollow, no punch or depth. Muffled. Restricted.
I hope those words help.

So I guess my question at this point is, has anyone else ran across this or read about something like this on here before? Anymore suggestions or links to them?

Should I post this in a new topic as it has changed somewhat?
Hi,

I would post now in the Audyssey thread, with some pictures of your room. XT-32 can be a very helpful technology, in that it helps to remove distortion from the speaker/room interaction. All rooms introduce distortion into your sound. Sometimes it is overt, and sometimes it is more difficult to hear, particularly if you aren't accustomed to listening for it. Audyssey, when correctly implemented, can help in most circumstances. But implementing it correctly can be more difficult that it seems. You can always just turn XT-32 off and listen to your system without room correction. That is simply a personal choice, and there is no problem with doing that.

But XT-32 is a sophisticated and expensive technology (which is why it is only offered in high end receivers; due to the licensing costs). If you want to try to take advantage of it, I and others on the Audyssey thread, will try to help.

Regards,
Mike
 
#30 ·
Good news. I went to Best Buy intending to try another Reciever. I talked with a guy about the 6010 and he said no way. The Reciever should blow my mind, I listened to his 6010 and new mine had issues. I returned the original and just hooked up the new one. It sounds great, haven't ran Audyssey yet but it's already a drastic difference.
With all of your great advise, I ordered a center channel and want to try to build a sub. honestly I am Scared about it sounding great though. So I will post on speakers about it. Maybe I can get some help?:rolleyes:
 
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