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post #1 of 31 Old 04-25-2016, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Do I need or want more power

I have read and read,FAC's and threads for months. I'm more unsure than ever! I would really appreciate your input....
I have just purchased a Marantz SR-6010. My plan was/is to use a good Reciever as a preamp as money is a factor. I couldn't afford the 7010, got an insane deal on the 6010! and thought since I plan to amp up anyway......
The Marantz seems ok so far, still playing with it but I am really wanting more power already.
I have
Def Tech BP2000 front l/r
Def Tech BP-10's surrounds
For now my center is a Def Tech BPX surround. I know. I can't find a Clr 2500 and can't decide what to do.
It's all in a smaller 10x15 room for now. I plan to add DTS-x/Atmos speakers when I move and have a more functional room. I love listening to music, the wife loves movies.

So, my dilema? I am wanting a Emotiva XPA-5. I think anyway. I even have the money set aside even though there could be other things for it.
Is this I good addition? Too much? I don't think so. But I have always believed you can't have enough power. I have always liked to "feel my music" I have a hard time listening to it any other way.

Is this a good setup/ plan?
Is there another route i should consider?
Are there any promotions or deals on Emotiva anymore? New seems a wiser choice than used? Is gen 2 better than 1. 3 isn't worth it?

Trust me I have 50 more things to talk about but I'm trying to stay calm so you guys don't run....thnx
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post #2 of 31 Old 04-25-2016, 06:55 PM
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Based on what you posted your next purchase should be a good subwoofer, not an amp! A sub will make a bigger difference to your system than an external amp.

Use the money you set aside for the XPA-5 to get a SVS, Rythmik, Hsu or other quality sub. Adding a sub to handle the low frequencies also makes it easier for your receiver to drive the other 5 speakers. You win on both ends!

This Def Tech center should do the trick for you.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...w&gclsrc=aw.ds

Best Buy sells it too for $50 more
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/definiti...&ref=212&loc=1

You dont need a subwoofer in a center channel speaker like the CLR 2500 offers.

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post #3 of 31 Old 04-25-2016, 06:58 PM
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Holy crap you got bp 10s for surrounds! Those are my mains I use upstairs. Yea more power is probably more of a need than a want.

There are going to be times when the soundtrack needs to drive all of them at once, your marantz is going to struggle.

As mentioned sub will help and I would start with but both amp and sub would be preferred.

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Last edited by microwiz; 04-25-2016 at 07:04 PM.
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post #4 of 31 Old 04-25-2016, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I do have the 2, 400watt(I think) subs built into the bp2000's
Plus I have a pioneer Andrew jones behind the couch for a little more shake during movies.
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post #5 of 31 Old 04-25-2016, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
Holy crap you got bp 10s for surrounds! Those are my mains I use upstairs. Yea more power is probably more of a need than a want.

There are going to be times when the soundtrack needs to drive all of them at once, your marantz is going to struggle.

As mentioned sub will help and I would start with but both amp and sub would be preferred.
Yea, the bp10's were just sitting there so that's what I'm using. I got a killer deal on all 4 def techs. Not gonna believe this. 2- BP- 2000, 2- BP-10, 1- BPX surround all for $350.00!! At a Salvation Army no less. My wife found them. She called me and said they had some speakers that looked like my system that was stolen.
The rest is history. I had to replace 2 drivers, definitive tech-guy hooked me up...Good to go
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post #6 of 31 Old 04-26-2016, 08:57 AM
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That's crazy $350!. I've had my bp 10's for over 12 years now and couldn't be more happy.

My brother is looking for 5.1 now, his budge was around $800 bucks so we settled on some polks but damn wish I could have found him what you got for that price.

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post #7 of 31 Old 04-26-2016, 09:47 AM
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"Do I need or want more power"

No, you don't need more power. As you said, you probably want more power.
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post #8 of 31 Old 04-26-2016, 10:41 AM
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Are you getting distortion at your current listening volume? Are you not able to reach a high enough volume with the Marantz? If the answer is no to both of those then no you don't need an amp. You may want one though.

What do you think is actually lacking about your current system?

My setup: Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 and center, Ascend HTM200SE surround, dual Rythmik L12's, Pioneer SC-95, Samsung PN60F8500
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post #9 of 31 Old 04-26-2016, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
"Do I need or want more power"

No, you don't need more power. As you said, you probably want more power.
Fair enough. I know, I won't die if I don't add an amp but is this a wise choice for what I have. I guess that's what I'm trying to get some input on.
I'm new to receivers. If they don't put out the power they are spec'd at am I not hearing what my speakers could really do? Does the Marantz have enough on demand for my listening levels and for how long. Why can I turn the volume to 90, I'm scared to go past that. I'm used to 50 or 60 but that was 10 years ago with Acurus amps.
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post #10 of 31 Old 04-26-2016, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by brianmlamb View Post
Are you getting distortion at your current listening volume? Are you not able to reach a high enough volume with the Marantz? If the answer is no to both of those then no you don't need an amp. You may want one though.

What do you think is actually lacking about your current system?
No distortion but it really seems to plane out, nothing left, running on fumes. I mean I'm at 90 on the volume.
I guess what is lacking is money to play harder. I just want the best for what I've got, add a little here and there when I can.
I just lack confidence in a receivers ability to power what I have now and the atmos later.
I read these speakers only come alive at a minimum of 200 watts. Makes a guy wonder .....
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post #11 of 31 Old 04-26-2016, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Chazman View Post
No distortion but it really seems to plane out, nothing left, running on fumes. I mean I'm at 90 on the volume.
I guess what is lacking is money to play harder. I just want the best for what I've got, add a little here and there when I can.
I just lack confidence in a receivers ability to power what I have now and the atmos later.
I read these speakers only come alive at a minimum of 200 watts. Makes a guy wonder .....
Since you're running high volume and not satisfied it does sound like an amp may work for you. Either that or some higher efficiency speakers but it doesn't sound like you want to replace your current setup.

What do you mean by "play harder" do you mean more bass? How big is your room? I can't listen at higher than -20 from reference, (not sure what that translates to on the db scale 80 maybe), without giving myself a headache. Is it enjoyable listening at the 90 setting or does it hurt your ears?

Try using this calculator to let you know what kind of power you'll need and what it'll actually do at your listening position:
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

My setup: Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 and center, Ascend HTM200SE surround, dual Rythmik L12's, Pioneer SC-95, Samsung PN60F8500
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post #12 of 31 Old 04-26-2016, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by brianmlamb View Post
Since you're running high volume and not satisfied it does sound like an amp may work for you. Either that or some higher efficiency speakers but it doesn't sound like you want to replace your current setup.

What do you mean by "play harder" do you mean more bass? How big is your room? I can't listen at higher than -20 from reference, (not sure what that translates to on the db scale 80 maybe), without giving myself a headache. Is it enjoyable listening at the 90 setting or does it hurt your ears?

Try using this calculator to let you know what kind of power you'll need and what it'll actually do at your listening position:
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
Lacking money to play hard, lacking money to just get whatever I want. That's all I meant. Music and "stereo's have been a passion of mine passed down from dad. I have never had the guts to spend crazy money on it though. I just read and read and wish. Just want to start having something real nice to blow my mind. Thought you guys could give me some guidance
Does 90 hurt....some music does so I turn it down. But like pink Floyd it doesn't seem to be loud enough, for me
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post #13 of 31 Old 04-27-2016, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Chazman View Post
Lacking money to play hard, lacking money to just get whatever I want. That's all I meant. Music and "stereo's have been a passion of mine passed down from dad. I have never had the guts to spend crazy money on it though. I just read and read and wish. Just want to start having something real nice to blow my mind. Thought you guys could give me some guidance
Does 90 hurt....some music does so I turn it down. But like pink Floyd it doesn't seem to be loud enough, for me
There are plenty of ways to increase the sound quality of your system without spending any money. Maybe try posting up a picture of your room and speaker setup and see if someone can spot a placement change, room treatments, or help you optimize the settings in your receiver. Also picking up some new better subs rather than the small andrew Jones one you have would allow you to set the crossover higher and increase headroom for your mains using the same setup and likely sound much better as well.

We're trying to help you determine if spending money on an amplifier will give you what you're looking for. I still don't understand what you mean by Lacking money to play hard? What does that mean in terms of sound? There are plenty of DIY speaker designs and systems that cost a fraction of the super expensive systems that are every bit as good if not better. More $ spent doesn't always get you better sound, and twice as expensive speakers don't sound twice as good, there's a huge amount of diminishing returns toward the top end.

IMO if you want loud effortless sound you should explore some high efficiency speakers. If you're handy try some of the DIY sound group designs. If not look at Reaction Audio or JTR but you'll pay considerably more vs DIY for a finished product.

Can you still return the Marantz? I'm demoing a Pioneer Elite SC-95 and it packs more punch than the Denon x4200w. I was listening to Queen last night and the Pioneer seems to have more mid bass slam than the Denon was putting out which you may like. It's also got more efficient class D amps which put out a lot of power. They're on sale at Best Buy, or have been for the past few weeks.
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post #14 of 31 Old 04-27-2016, 01:42 PM
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the number 90 has no meaning that you or I can discern regarding the output of the receiver. Might be 5 watts, might be 50 . . . etc.

When an amp runs out of gas, it distorts. That's what happens. There is also dynamic compression involved but the distortion will be audible long before the compression is noticeable (if it ever is). If an amp is appropriately designed (acurate frequency response, low output impedance, etc.) then as long as it has enough power to reach the levels you play at without audible distortion, more power will not make a difference. Physical laws of the universe prevent one amp from delivering a different flavor of 100 watts, for example, into any given speaker.

Especially with music, average levels on the recording can very a ton. So perhaps the Pink Floyd is less dynamically compressed and has a lower average level on the CD or whatever. The power needed to get that average recorded level to the level you want is exactly the same - - a "louder" CD doesn't use less power to get to any given SPL with your speakers, but it does require a different volume control setting than a "quieter" CD. And, FWIW, the "quieter" (on average) CD may have peak levels that are significantly "more louder" compared to the average level, than the "louder" CD, and when reproducing those peaks, it's possible a person might drive an amp into distortion, for the peaks, even though they are listening at exactly the same average level as they use for "Louder" CDs.

Anyway, bottom line is if you aren't distorting the amp, you won't gain anything but placebo effect from simply adding more power (all other things being equal). Your speakers probably start compressing and certainly distort way more [figure a factor of 10, anyway] than the amp by the time they reach about half of their rated ("this'll blow 'em up") power. When the speakers compress, your playback becomes inaccurate. But it might sound louder overall because while you aren't getting the peaks at full volume, the average level is higher . . . and to most people, distorted sound sounds lewder at the same SPL
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post #15 of 31 Old 04-27-2016, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by brianmlamb View Post
There are plenty of ways to increase the sound quality of your system without spending any money. Maybe try posting up a picture of your room and speaker setup and see if someone can spot a placement change, room treatments, or help you optimize the settings in your receiver. Also picking up some new better subs rather than the small andrew Jones one you have would allow you to set the crossover higher and increase headroom for your mains using the same setup and likely sound much better as well.

We're trying to help you determine if spending money on an amplifier will give you what you're looking for. I still don't understand what you mean by Lacking money to play hard? What does that mean in terms of sound? There are plenty of DIY speaker designs and systems that cost a fraction of the super expensive systems that are every bit as good if not better. More $ spent doesn't always get you better sound, and twice as expensive speakers don't sound twice as good, there's a huge amount of diminishing returns toward the top end.

IMO if you want loud effortless sound you should explore some high efficiency speakers. If you're handy try some of the DIY sound group designs. If not look at Reaction Audio or JTR but you'll pay considerably more vs DIY for a finished product.

Can you still return the Marantz? I'm demoing a Pioneer Elite SC-95 and it packs more punch than the Denon x4200w. I was listening to Queen last night and the Pioneer seems to have more mid bass slam than the Denon was putting out which you may like. It's also got more efficient class D amps which put out a lot of power. They're on sale at Best Buy, or have been for the past few weeks.
First, I happen to be a carpenter with a lot of cabinet and furniture building experience. There was a time when I was fascinated in building my own speakers but the more I read, especially in the last few years, the more overwhelmed I got with all the math and variables guys would talk about on different sites. I thought I would put significant money and time into something only to find out it does not work as well as I wanted. I would love to do it. The satisfaction alone, as long as they worked...
Second, I thought I read thoroughly about brands of receivers and Marantz was the way to go, slightly better than Denon with music. Did I not make a wise purchase. I had an Onkyo tx-nr737 that I'm thinking sounded better. Still playing with and reading about the Audyssey but to me, anyway, it sounds significantly different than the Onkyo. I mainly changed to the Marantz for the features, Dts-x, Audyssey, and the pre-outs. I can return it but not much time to decide.
You pretty much got the play hard crap- spending money (assuming) it's gonna be better. Thanks for your valuable input
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post #16 of 31 Old 04-27-2016, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
the number 90 has no meaning that you or I can discern regarding the output of the receiver. Might be 5 watts, might be 50 . . . etc.

When an amp runs out of gas, it distorts. That's what happens. There is also dynamic compression involved but the distortion will be audible long before the compression is noticeable (if it ever is). If an amp is appropriately designed (acurate frequency response, low output impedance, etc.) then as long as it has enough power to reach the levels you play at without audible distortion, more power will not make a difference. Physical laws of the universe prevent one amp from delivering a different flavor of 100 watts, for example, into any given speaker.

Especially with music, average levels on the recording can very a ton. So perhaps the Pink Floyd is less dynamically compressed and has a lower average level on the CD or whatever. The power needed to get that average recorded level to the level you want is exactly the same - - a "louder" CD doesn't use less power to get to any given SPL with your speakers, but it does require a different volume control setting than a "quieter" CD. And, FWIW, the "quieter" (on average) CD may have peak levels that are significantly "more louder" compared to the average level, than the "louder" CD, and when reproducing those peaks, it's possible a person might drive an amp into distortion, for the peaks, even though they are listening at exactly the same average level as they use for "Louder" CDs.

Anyway, bottom line is if you aren't distorting the amp, you won't gain anything but placebo effect from simply adding more power (all other things being equal). Your speakers probably start compressing and certainly distort way more [figure a factor of 10, anyway] than the amp by the time they reach about half of their rated ("this'll blow 'em up") power. When the speakers compress, your playback becomes inaccurate. But it might sound louder overall because while you aren't getting the peaks at full volume, the average level is higher . . . and to most people, distorted sound sounds lewder at the same SPL
Thank you, that was cool. I love learning about stuff I love. I am trying to learn more about the compression of music or whatever. On the Marantz it has stuff to alter that and I want to know exactly I'm changing and why. I thought the Audyssey xt-32 was gonna blow my mind with its ability and ease but it's only confused me and buried my nose in reading so far. What you say makes so much sence , I want to know more, especially about speakers compressing and distortion.
If it's not possible for for amps to deliver different "flavors of a 100 watts" than why does the Marantz sound so much different than the onkyo. Even on pure direct.
I'm also interested in what Brian said about headroom, a word I've heard but never took the time to understand it. If it's that important I want to learn more...
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post #17 of 31 Old 04-28-2016, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Chazman View Post
First, I happen to be a carpenter with a lot of cabinet and furniture building experience. There was a time when I was fascinated in building my own speakers but the more I read, especially in the last few years, the more overwhelmed I got with all the math and variables guys would talk about on different sites. I thought I would put significant money and time into something only to find out it does not work as well as I wanted. I would love to do it. The satisfaction alone, as long as they worked...
Second, I thought I read thoroughly about brands of receivers and Marantz was the way to go, slightly better than Denon with music. Did I not make a wise purchase. I had an Onkyo tx-nr737 that I'm thinking sounded better. Still playing with and reading about the Audyssey but to me, anyway, it sounds significantly different than the Onkyo. I mainly changed to the Marantz for the features, Dts-x, Audyssey, and the pre-outs. I can return it but not much time to decide.
You pretty much got the play hard crap- spending money (assuming) it's gonna be better. Thanks for your valuable input
If you're a carpenter with cabinet building experience I can't imagine a better sound quality option upgrade for you for the money than some DIY high efficiency speakers. If the math daunts you or worries you they have pre-designed kits where they tell you the dimensions to build and include all the drivers/crossover components, you can also send the crossovers out to be assembled by a professional if you're worried about that aspect. I bet you could make some beautiful enclosures for your speakers and they'd sound way better than your current setup. They also make flat packs with all pieces cut to size where all you have to do is assemble the pieces with wood glue and clamps then finish them which should be a piece of cake for you.

Make yourself a set of 3 of these and a DIY 18" Dayton sub and I think you'll have exactly what you're looking for. The 99db sensitivity makes them able to be driven to extremely high volumes with much less power input:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-th...sive-1099.html

There's nothing wrong with Marantz at all, it's a great receiver. The 6010 just doesn't have "super powerful" amps, the quality and room correction of the Marantz is excellent though. I only asked if you can return it since you seem to want more power. The Pioneer SC-95 is on sale at Best Buy and uses a different amp technology that will give you more power for a similar price as the Marantz. The room correction isn't as good and it does sound different, but it's got all the same future proof features (minus DTS-X which update is coming but not out yet). If you have enough room on your credit card go pick up a Pioneer elite, or even a power amp at Best Buy and try it out, you've got 15 days to decide if you want to keep it risk free. It'll either work for you or it won't and you can take it back if it's not what you want.

If you built some DIY high efficiency speakers like the ones above though your Marantz would drive them excellently.

Headroom is just referring to giving the amp more ability to play dynamically (loud to soft transitions) without running out of power. Low frequencies take much more energy to generate than high frequencies. This is why you see subwoofers with hundreds or thousands of watts. By getting a more capable subwoofer you'll be able to crossover your speakers at a higher level (ex 80hz) which means your avr no longer has to provide the power to generate those low frequencies. This frees up more power in the AVR for the mids and highs. Not to mention the better subwoofer will give you more impact and sound significantly tighter and better than most speakers in that frequency range. For best results though you have to place the subwoofer where it sounds best, not where it's convenient or looks best. Multiple subwoofers even out the bass and can help deal with room modes where you have problem frequencies in the low end as well.
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post #18 of 31 Old 04-28-2016, 08:38 AM
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Fair enough. I know, I won't die if I don't add an amp but is this a wise choice for what I have. I guess that's what I'm trying to get some input on.
I'm new to receivers. If they don't put out the power they are spec'd at am I not hearing what my speakers could really do? Does the Marantz have enough on demand for my listening levels and for how long. Why can I turn the volume to 90, I'm scared to go past that. I'm used to 50 or 60 but that was 10 years ago with Acurus amps.

You must have read one of those posts recommending more power to "open up" your speakers. Sadly we use screwdrivers to open up speakers not amplifiers. Unused power has no effect at all in audio performance. If your system plays at the desired level without distortion (almost all do) then more power won't do anything other than soothe your desire to spend.


Volume controls have different tapers. The numbers have no meaning at all. 50 on one doesn't equate to 50 on another. Some load the bigger changes early and some late. Most do it early to give the user the impression that the amp is powerful. It may or may not be but where the knob is positioned won't answer that question.


Happy listening.
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post #19 of 31 Old 04-28-2016, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Chazman View Post
Thank you, that was cool. I love learning about stuff I love. I am trying to learn more about the compression of music or whatever. On the Marantz it has stuff to alter that and I want to know exactly I'm changing and why. I thought the Audyssey xt-32 was gonna blow my mind with its ability and ease but it's only confused me and buried my nose in reading so far. What you say makes so much sence , I want to know more, especially about speakers compressing and distortion.
If it's not possible for for amps to deliver different "flavors of a 100 watts" than why does the Marantz sound so much different than the onkyo. Even on pure direct.
I'm also interested in what Brian said about headroom, a word I've heard but never took the time to understand it. If it's that important I want to learn more...
Hi,

You are getting good advice, but in a couple of different directions, so let me see if I can summarize some of it. First, as long as you can play loud enough without distortion, you may not need additional amplification. Second, Marantz does in fact have an excellent reputation for music, but it takes a while to learn to use all of the available features in a modern AVR, and Audyssey is also complicated. Third, in what part of the frequency range do you feel that you are lacking in power or audio impact? If it's the bass, that probably relates more to your subwoofer than to your amp and speakers, and you can always increase your sub trim relative to your other speakers, if necessary.

For most people, bass impact is probably the most significant aspect of obtaining sufficiently loud sound, and there is a section in the FAQ, linked below, that deals with that. Going to ever higher volumes in most rooms can actually be a problem in upper frequency ranges, as room distortion may occur long before amplifier distortion does.

I think that getting a good center is probably your first priority. Second might be upgrading your sub(s), if after doing everything you can to dial in the performance, you still feel you need more output. Third, would be the addition of an external amp to drive your front two, or three, speakers. But, based on the information provided so far, I would give things a little time, make adjustments to maximize performance with your current sub(s), Audyssey etc., and upgrade the system in that priority order as your interests and finances permit.

Regards,
Mike
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Headroom is available clean power in excess of what you use. You need lots of headroom over, say, dialog levels when listening to movies, because the peaks may call for 100 times more power. (And dialog probably uses half a watt or less in most setups . . . even at "reference"). If I have enough clean power to hit the peaks without distortion at my listening levels, headroom above that is a lovely thing to think about, may make me sleep better at night, but cannot yield an audible difference. Look up Ohm's law. Voltage, current and resistance (called impedance in AC circuits) are subject to a strict mathematical relationship, immutable as gravity, at least on the physical scale of wires, speakers and amps (versus subatomic or interstellar size ranges) and at temperatures significantly above absolute zero. Unlike gravity, people who don't believe Ohm's law really applies are unlikely to think they can fly out of a 10th story window and crash to their deaths, or otherwise meet horrific ends as opposed to people who don't believe in gravity.

What the power amp multiplies is voltage (and the speaker responds linearly to voltage changes). Current (amps) is needed from the amp, too, but the current for any given voltage is fixed by the speaker's impedance. It's more complex than a DC circuit with a resistor, because the speaker's impedance is different at different frequencies, and since real content has constantly-changing frequency, umm, content, the net impedance the amp "sees" is constantly changing. But for the impedance the speaker presents at any given instant with real content, the amp cannot deliver the voltage called for by it's amplification factor and also deliver either more or less current. Physical laws of the universe prevent it from sending more current than the impedance of the speaker calls for at the given voltage, and if the amp cannot supply enough current, it the same physical laws mean it will not send full voltage. At least in some settings, that's called voltage "sag," and whether it's caused by the amp running out of current or the amp not being to swing the required voltage it's the basic culprit behind harmonic distortion from amps.

Assuming you are a human being, it's possible that the differences you perceive between the two devices are placebo effect - the same thing that causes some people to get over their headaches when they take a sugar pill they think is medicine. Man did I spend lots of years and more than a few dollars chasing placebo effects in electronics, but that's a story fo another day. It's an unavoidable part of being human, occurs, AIUI, largely on a subconscious level so we cannot control it, and may yield results that differ from the known ability of the less subconscious preexisting bias to affect our perceptions.

If the differences between your devices are real, the only way it can be power related is if one amp has detectable (even if you don't identify it as distortion) distortion. If there is an audible difference at lower levels, one of the devices (or, I suppose, both) is not behaving linearly. Some amps are designed not to be linear in the audible frequency ranges. For example, in the 80s, AIUI, lots of British higher-end amps rolled off the high frequencies a bit. That difference would be audible on any speaker that did not roll highs off itself so much that it masked the amp's nonlinearity. Sounded good to lots of folks, especially with early digital, but technically not accurate amplification. Of course if some EQ is turned on in the preamp section of one of the devices, the system's output will be as nonlinear as the EQ calls for and that could explain the difference. Audyssey certainly qualifies.

AIUI, another possibility, not likely with modern solid state amps, is a high enough output impedance from the power amp that it's otherwise linear frequency response varies when it's presented with a difficult load. (while AFAIK you can just plug the impedance number into Ohm's law where resistance would go to calculated instantaneous current at any given voltage, impedance is a more complex phenomenon, containing not only a resistance element but other attributes, all of which vary with frequency, and that may make the amp respond differently at different frequencies. The folks at Stereophile.com do bench testing of amps they review. With very rare exceptions, the solid state amps, driven into what is supposed to be a very difficult test load, show frequency response variations of less than a tenth of a decibel (dB), a difference that, AIUI, is generally considered utterly inaudible. But a very few solid state amps (usually exotic high high dollar babies) and more than half of tube power amps will have variations that may reach half a dB or more, which, if the dip or peak is broad enough, may be noticeable in critical listening.
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post #21 of 31 Old 04-28-2016, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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If you're a carpenter with cabinet building experience I can't imagine a better sound quality option upgrade for you for the money than some DIY high efficiency speakers. If the math daunts you or worries you they have pre-designed kits where they tell you the dimensions to build and include all the drivers/crossover components, you can also send the crossovers out to be assembled by a professional if you're worried about that aspect. I bet you could make some beautiful enclosures for your speakers and they'd sound way better than your current setup. They also make flat packs with all pieces cut to size where all you have to do is assemble the pieces with wood glue and clamps then finish them which should be a piece of cake for you.

Make yourself a set of 3 of these and a DIY 18" Dayton sub and I think you'll have exactly what you're looking for. The 99db sensitivity makes them able to be driven to extremely high volumes with much less power input:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-th...sive-1099.html

There's nothing wrong with Marantz at all, it's a great receiver. The 6010 just doesn't have "super powerful" amps, the quality and room correction of the Marantz is excellent though. I only asked if you can return it since you seem to want more power. The Pioneer SC-95 is on sale at Best Buy and uses a different amp technology that will give you more power for a similar price as the Marantz. The room correction isn't as good and it does sound different, but it's got all the same future proof features (minus DTS-X which update is coming but not out yet). If you have enough room on your credit card go pick up a Pioneer elite, or even a power amp at Best Buy and try it out, you've got 15 days to decide if you want to keep it risk free. It'll either work for you or it won't and you can take it back if it's not what you want.

If you built some DIY high efficiency speakers like the ones above though your Marantz would drive them excellently.

Headroom is just referring to giving the amp more ability to play dynamically (loud to soft transitions) without running out of power. Low frequencies take much more energy to generate than high frequencies. This is why you see subwoofers with hundreds or thousands of watts. By getting a more capable subwoofer you'll be able to crossover your speakers at a higher level (ex 80hz) which means your avr no longer has to provide the power to generate those low frequencies. This frees up more power in the AVR for the mids and highs. Not to mention the better subwoofer will give you more impact and sound significantly tighter and better than most speakers in that frequency range. For best results though you have to place the subwoofer where it sounds best, not where it's convenient or looks best. Multiple subwoofers even out the bass and can help deal with room modes where you have problem frequencies in the low end as well.
Thank you for the link for diy. Definitely looking into that.
The reason I settled for the 6010 was I had planed it to be with an amp
I was so excited when I found this deal on all the def techs. I had my first "real" speakers and audio system in the late 90's with a pair of BP-20's. I absolutely loved them. I only listened to music.
That system was stolen 10 years ago, so the best I've heard was that and that was years ago.
I thought these BP-2000 would be great. I thought their efficiency was good at 90. I guess I might be stuck in the past. How much difference would a 95-100 be? Must be good. Question, if a speaker is less efficient wouldn't adding more power bring it up to par with a more efficient speaker or is quality lost?
I'm guessing since you guys are animate about a new sub that the two 15" subs and two 300 watt amps built into the BP's are not that great compared to today's subs. I don't doubt it at all but I didn't think it would be that much of a difference.
Right now I have the BP's bi-amped and the crossovers are set at 80 on the Marantz. Still playing though.
I didn't even think about trying an amp from Best Buy. Duh. Damn placebo affect.
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post #22 of 31 Old 04-28-2016, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

You are getting good advice, but in a couple of different directions, so let me see if I can summarize some of it. First, as long as you can play loud enough without distortion, you may not need additional amplification. Second, Marantz does in fact have an excellent reputation for music, but it takes a while to learn to use all of the available features in a modern AVR, and Audyssey is also complicated. Third, in what part of the frequency range do you feel that you are lacking in power or audio impact? If it's the bass, that probably relates more to your subwoofer than to your amp and speakers, and you can always increase your sub trim relative to your other speakers, if necessary.

For most people, bass impact is probably the most significant aspect of obtaining sufficiently loud sound, and there is a section in the FAQ, linked below, that deals with that. Going to ever higher volumes in most rooms can actually be a problem in upper frequency ranges, as room distortion may occur long before amplifier distortion does.

I think that getting a good center is probably your first priority. Second might be upgrading your sub(s), if after doing everything you can to dial in the performance, you still feel you need more output. Third, would be the addition of an external amp to drive your front two, or three, speakers. But, based on the information provided so far, I would give things a little time, make adjustments to maximize performance with your current sub(s), Audyssey etc., and upgrade the system in that priority order as your interests and finances permit.

Regards,
Mike
I know. I love this advice, you guys are awesome, I'm having so much fun with this. I lost my passion for audio years ago. It feels good to be so obsessed with it again. Thanks for all you guys' help bring me up to speed.
I feel a little better about purchasing the 6010 but wonder if I should return it for something else. Just need to play with it for a little while longer maybe
You asked what I think is lacking. Thought that was an easy answer but what you explained about room distortion really made me think. My listening area is impossible. Not really any options either. Being so small and so much speaker I think room distortion is my problem. When I Said it seemed like it was planing out, at mid to louder volumes it sounds all blended, looses separation, starts to be too loud, annoying. (Sorry, I don't describe what I hear like a pro). I don't think it lacks bass, maybe needs better bass I wouldn't know. I've never heard great bass if what I'm listening to isn't. I can't wait too though.
I was so stuck on the Emotiva, I bought the Reciever around it. I think I will take your advise and hold off, play with it a little more, go try an amp from Best Buy just to verify my placebo effect problem and definitely get a center channel which I was doing as soon as I found one.
You know for the last 10 years I've just bought "temporary" stuff to get by "For now". It Cost too much and I'm never happy. I just want to say, that's nice, that's cool, and sit back and relax. Thanks for helping me get there
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^^

You are very welcome! It may sound weird to say this in an age of instant gratification, but I think getting there is half the fun of the hobby. The more you play with your system, and your room, and tweak things to improve the sound quality, the more you learn. And the more you learn, the more you can improve the sound quality. I actually enjoy the process.
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my main purpose for more/external amp was for higher spl.

edit....if my subs hit 110 and my mains can only hit 100, maybe some more juice is needed(if they can handle more juice that is)

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc800v, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Velodyne HGS 12, VA 1512, Rythmik FV15HP
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Thank you for the link for diy. Definitely looking into that.
The reason I settled for the 6010 was I had planed it to be with an amp
I was so excited when I found this deal on all the def techs. I had my first "real" speakers and audio system in the late 90's with a pair of BP-20's. I absolutely loved them. I only listened to music.
That system was stolen 10 years ago, so the best I've heard was that and that was years ago.
I thought these BP-2000 would be great. I thought their efficiency was good at 90. I guess I might be stuck in the past. How much difference would a 95-100 be? Must be good. Question, if a speaker is less efficient wouldn't adding more power bring it up to par with a more efficient speaker or is quality lost?
I'm guessing since you guys are animate about a new sub that the two 15" subs and two 300 watt amps built into the BP's are not that great compared to today's subs. I don't doubt it at all but I didn't think it would be that much of a difference.
Right now I have the BP's bi-amped and the crossovers are set at 80 on the Marantz. Still playing though.
I didn't even think about trying an amp from Best Buy. Duh. Damn placebo affect.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your BP-2000's. For the price you paid for the setup you got an incredible amount of speaker. The efficiency is tricky to explain and involves a lot of calculations. I'm still learning so if this is wrong someone else please correct me. Going from a 90db/watt sensitivity to a 99db/watt sensitivity would have a perceptible loudness increase of 2x with the same amount of power from the receiver. A 10db increase is ~2x as loud. Source: http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/how...eloudness.html

The only reason I started recommending the high efficiency speakers was to address your "need for more power" in an alternative way. Those high efficiency speaker designs are also less likely to distort at high volume which would give you a noticeable sound quality improvement at loud listening levels.

Question for you, how are you hooking up the BP-2000's? Are you hooking up your subwoofer outputs from the receiver to the LFE input on the speakers? If not, you're likely not getting the full benefit of the powered subs in them.


Passive Bi-amping doesn't do anything, it won't harm anything but it won't make any real difference using an AVR. It's not doubling the power since it's still using the same power supply in the AVR. If you eventually go atmos and want those inputs back for more channels you can just do a single input to the speakers.

Don't be afraid to experiment with new gear (especially risk free returns like Best Buy), play with all the settings and see what you like best. What sounds good to me may not to you or anyone else. That's half the fun, getting it suited to your tastes.

My setup: Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 and center, Ascend HTM200SE surround, dual Rythmik L12's, Pioneer SC-95, Samsung PN60F8500
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my main purpose for more/external amp was for higher spl.

edit....if my subs hit 110 and my mains can only hit 100, maybe some more juice is needed(if they can handle more juice that is)
Maybe, maybe not. Movies' LFE channel (the .1 in 5.1 or 7.1 system) is turned up by 10 dB automatically. So the theoretical max levels for center, left and right and surround speakers, at "reference" is 105 dB each, while the max level for the LFE channel is 115 dB. Once you use bass management to send low frequencies from the mains to the subs, the subwoofer channel will be even "more louder" than the mains, if that's a useful phrase. With the caveat that once I engage dynamic EQ, the bass goes up even more, relatively speaking, (i.e. the sub is even more more louder) I don't worry about those max SPL levels because I never play movies even -10 dB from reference. So my pre-bass management and pre-EQ max possible levels are less than 105 for the sub and less than 95 for each main speaker (theoretically - AFAIK no real movie content pushes the surrounds to full scale levels although games, they say, may be different).

So the 10 dB difference may simply be in line with what you need to play through the sub cleanly while still being in reasonably appropriate calibration with the mains . . . IMO, IME, YMMV etc.
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post #27 of 31 Old 04-30-2016, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok. I have played with this Marantz 6010. It's either not working correctly or not for me.
Listening to music. It sounds so hollow, no punch or depth. Muffled. Restricted.
I hope those words help.
Settings.
Mains are set to small, crossovers at 90 for both front and rears (bp2000's, bp10's)
Subs are at 80hz. Answer to question earlier they are hooked up through the sub outputs on Reciever. Subwoofer level adjust- on
Cinema eq- off
M-Dax- high
The only way it seemed to sound close was with multiEQ XT32 off. With it on I tried changing everything listening to the same song over and over to hear the difference.
The only way it sounds the clearest is in pure direct but the I can't have it in 5 channel if I want and the subs aren't the same.
Not not saying my Onkyo txnr 737 was a better Reciever but I had no issues with the sound. I thought I was upgrading with the Marantz.
I read the Audyssey link you guys sent and changed a couple things according to it and thought that was gonna be the answer. It sounded even quieter and restricted.
So I guess my question at this point is, has anyone else ran across this or read about something like this on here before? Anymore suggestions or links to them?
Should I post this in a new topic as it has changed somewhat?
Glad you guys slowed me down on buying an amp, what good would it have done if I can't get a signal I'm happy with.
Again...
Mains, Def Techs BP2000's. Biamped which I now know means nothing
Rears, Def Techs BP10's
Subs, Def Techs built in 15"x 300w in both Mains, 1-Pioneer Andrew Jones
Center Def Tech, 1-BPX surround (temporary)
AVR- Matantz SR-6010
All matching, good quality cables and 12awg wires
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I have read and read,FAC's and threads for months. I'm more unsure than ever! I would really appreciate your input....
I have just purchased a Marantz SR-6010. My plan was/is to use a good Reciever as a preamp as money is a factor. I couldn't afford the 7010, got an insane deal on the 6010! and thought since I plan to amp up anyway......
The Marantz seems ok so far, still playing with it but I am really wanting more power already.
I have
Def Tech BP2000 front l/r
Def Tech BP-10's surrounds
For now my center is a Def Tech BPX surround. I know. I can't find a Clr 2500 and can't decide what to do.
It's all in a smaller 10x15 room for now. I plan to add DTS-x/Atmos speakers when I move and have a more functional room. I love listening to music, the wife loves movies.

So, my dilema? I am wanting a Emotiva XPA-5. I think anyway. I even have the money set aside even though there could be other things for it.
Is this I good addition? Too much? I don't think so. But I have always believed you can't have enough power. I have always liked to "feel my music" I have a hard time listening to it any other way.

Is this a good setup/ plan?
Is there another route i should consider?
Are there any promotions or deals on Emotiva anymore? New seems a wiser choice than used? Is gen 2 better than 1. 3 isn't worth it?

Trust me I have 50 more things to talk about but I'm trying to stay calm so you guys don't run....thnx
You want more power why exactly?
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Originally Posted by Chazman View Post
Ok. I have played with this Marantz 6010. It's either not working correctly or not for me.
Listening to music. It sounds so hollow, no punch or depth. Muffled. Restricted.
I hope those words help.

So I guess my question at this point is, has anyone else ran across this or read about something like this on here before? Anymore suggestions or links to them?

Should I post this in a new topic as it has changed somewhat?
Hi,

I would post now in the Audyssey thread, with some pictures of your room. XT-32 can be a very helpful technology, in that it helps to remove distortion from the speaker/room interaction. All rooms introduce distortion into your sound. Sometimes it is overt, and sometimes it is more difficult to hear, particularly if you aren't accustomed to listening for it. Audyssey, when correctly implemented, can help in most circumstances. But implementing it correctly can be more difficult that it seems. You can always just turn XT-32 off and listen to your system without room correction. That is simply a personal choice, and there is no problem with doing that.

But XT-32 is a sophisticated and expensive technology (which is why it is only offered in high end receivers; due to the licensing costs). If you want to try to take advantage of it, I and others on the Audyssey thread, will try to help.

Regards,
Mike
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post #30 of 31 Old 05-01-2016, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Good news. I went to Best Buy intending to try another Reciever. I talked with a guy about the 6010 and he said no way. The Reciever should blow my mind, I listened to his 6010 and new mine had issues. I returned the original and just hooked up the new one. It sounds great, haven't ran Audyssey yet but it's already a drastic difference.
With all of your great advise, I ordered a center channel and want to try to build a sub. honestly I am Scared about it sounding great though. So I will post on speakers about it. Maybe I can get some help?

Mains, Def Techs BP2000's
Rears, Def Techs BP10's
Center Def Tech, CLR2002
Subs, Def Techs built in 15"x 300w in both Mains, 1-Pioneer Andrew Jones
AVR- Matantz SR-6010
Sony BDP-S3500
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