Advice on "future proof" home-theater receiver - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: Which of these receivers would you choose?
Denon AVR-X4200W 7 50.00%
Yamaha RX-A1050 0 0%
Yamaha RX-A2050 5 35.71%
Pioneer SR-LX59 2 14.29%
Onkyo TX-RZ800 0 0%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 28 Old 06-11-2016, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Question Advice on "future proof" home-theater receiver

Hello guys and girls. First time poster here

I have recently decided to change my whole HT setup going from a setup consisting of Klipsch RF-82 MK1, RS-52 MK1, RC-62 MK1 and Onkyo TX-SR805 to Dali Rubicon LCR, Rubicon Vokal, Dali Fazon SAT (or LCR) and Bowers & Wilkins DB1.

Then we come to the last dilemma, the receiver...

I have been reading left, right and centre on different receivers, but I don't really feel like I have gotten any wiser. At the moment there are five receivers that seem to stick out in my price-range. Before I list these I would just like to point out that it is important that the receiver I purchase is as future proof as possible (meaning HDR support etc.). I would also like as much handy functionality as possible (i.e., AirPlay, Spotify etc.). Below are the receivers I have been looking at (with the Norwegian price, as well as what this would be in USD):
  • Denon AVR-X4200W (11000 NOK, 1350 USD)
  • Yamaha RX-A2050 (12500 NOK, 1530 USD)
  • Yamaha RX-A1050 (8800 NOK, 1075 USD)
  • Pioneer SC-LX59 (15000 NOK, 1830 USD)
  • Onkyo TX-RZ800 (9000 NOK, 1100 USD)

In the list above I feel that the Pioneer is starting to stretch my budget, and I am not sure the extra cash is worth it. From my research it seems like the Denon AVR-X4200W and the Yamaha RX-A2050 probably will fit my needs the best, but I would love to hear your experience and expertise on the matter. I am pretty novice within the Hi-Fi world, but you have to start somewhere.

Thanks in advance, and kind regards,
Espen Andreassen.
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post #2 of 28 Old 06-12-2016, 02:16 AM
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Well you'll get 9 channels in the Yamaha A2050 and 7 in the Denon X4200 with available pre amp outputs for a 2 channel external amp to expand to 9 channels. The Denon has Audyssey XT32 room EQ with Sub EQ which is their best room correction especially for the subwoofer (bass region has over 500 filters.) The Yamaha A2050 offers YPAO rsc room EQ which has preset adjustable filters available to the user but they are limited and at 1/3 octaves. Still YPAO has well reviewed room correction but the bass correction in the A2050 only goes down to 31 Hz whereas the Denon's goes down to 15 hz.

Yamaha is known for its built in DSP's (concert hall, movie cinema, rock concert etc..) options and discrete(seperated right and left) amps and both have Dolby Atmos and DTS-X height channel decoders but for now the Yamaha is the only one of the 2 that currently can use either the Dolby Surround Upmixer or DTS Neural X upmixer between either Dolby encoded content or DTS enabled content. The Denon is supposedly getting this upgrade later this year but the Yamaha has it available in this receiver now. Both have available Android /IOS apps for phone or tablet and the Yamaha version has been reviewed to work better with a better user interface but the Denon version has been upgraded for the 2016 models and is said to be much improved.

If multiple subwoofer EQ is high on your list I'd get the Denon but if you prefer having 9 built in amps to run either 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 out of the box and Yamaha's touted DSP's and surround field effects then I'd get the Yamaha. Both offer 3 year factory warranties so you're similar there . Denon also offers a factory extended warranties on certain new models that start after the original factory warranty ends

https://usa.denon.com/us/product/warranty

The Onkyo doesn't have great room correction software with their in house Accu EQ and the recent reliability issues they have had in the past several years with their HDMI boards make them a tough recommend right now. The Yamaha 1050 is limited to 7 channels but it's biggest drawback to me is unlike the A2050 it doesn't offer independent level and distance settings for multiple subwoofers using the sub pre outs. Other than those 2 things it's a very similar receiver to the A2050.

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post #3 of 28 Old 06-12-2016, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Well you'll get 9 channels in the Yamaha A2050 and 7 in the Denon X4200 with available pre amp outputs for a 2 channel external amp to expand to 9 channels. The Denon has Audyssey XT32 room EQ with Sub EQ which is their best room correction especially for the subwoofer (bass region has over 500 filters.) The Yamaha A2050 offers YPAO rsc room EQ which has preset adjustable filters available to the user but they are limited and at 1/3 octaves. Still YPAO has well reviewed room correction but the bass correction in the A2050 only goes down to 31 Hz whereas the Denon's goes down to 15 hz.

Yamaha is known for its built in DSP's (concert hall, movie cinema, rock concert etc..) options and discrete(seperated right and left) amps and both have Dolby Atmos and DTS-X height channel decoders but for now the Yamaha is the only one of the 2 that currently can use either the Dolby Surround Upmixer or DTS Neural X upmixer between either Dolby encoded content or DTS enabled content. The Denon is supposedly getting this upgrade later this year but the Yamaha has it available in this receiver now. Both have available Android /IOS apps for phone or tablet and the Yamaha version has been reviewed to work better with a better user interface but the Denon version has been upgraded for the 2016 models and is said to be much improved.

If multiple subwoofer EQ is high on your list I'd get the Denon but if you prefer having 9 built in amps to run either 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 out of the box and Yamaha's touted DSP's and surround field effects then I'd get the Yamaha. Both offer 3 year factory warranties so you're similar there . Denon also offers a factory extended warranties on certain new models that start after the original factory warranty ends

The Onkyo doesn't have great room correction software with their in house Accu EQ and the recent reliability issues they have had in the past several years with their HDMI boards make them a tough recommend right now. The Yamaha 1050 is limited to 7 channels but it's biggest drawback to me is unlike the A2050 it doesn't offer independent level and distance settings for multiple subwoofers using the sub pre outs. Other than those 2 things it's a very similar receiver to the A2050.

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Thanks a lot for the answers!

Is there any way I can do a better Sub EQ with the Yamaha RX-A2050? It seems like most people recommend it over the Denon AVR-X4200W in a head-to-head.

For your information I will be using a 5.1 setup for now, but will be wanting to add celling speakers after a while.

I also got someone selling a used Yamaha RX-A2050 for 7000 NOK (855 USD) which seems like a good option.

Your thoughts?

Kind regards,
Espen.
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post #4 of 28 Old 06-12-2016, 05:20 AM
 
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No Such thing Future Proof AV Processor in fact No such thing as Future Proof Digital Product Including DACS/Room Correction Devices....

The only thing you can future proof, is spending more cash on Speakers and Amplifiers as this technology will likely hardly change.
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post #5 of 28 Old 06-12-2016, 06:20 AM
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"Charles H. Duell was the Commissioner of US patent office in 1899. Mr. Deull's most famous attributed utterance is that "everything that can be invented has been invented." Most patent attorneys have also heard that the quote is apocryphal"


It looks like you and Mr. Duell have a lot in common. You can besure the tech world is not going to stand still and wait for everyone to catch-up. Early adopters will pay through the nose to keep-up. Just in the past year with the hdmi video mixed in with avr units has made just year old avr units just about useless for the newest 4k video. It looks like the audio / video hardware makers found a group thats willing to pay up to keep up. The burn is this real need to upgrade ( the upgrade cycle) is getting shorter and shorter and the cost is getting higher. Of couse there are ways around this, like the samsung 8500, but if samsung was big into AVRs this unit would probably not exist with its dual hdmi outputs.
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I recently tried the pioneer sc-95 and hated the sound. To me, it sounded very metallic and digital. Went to a Yamaha a750 (will move from my theater to my living room) and it sounds much better despite being half the cost.

I think you need to demo different options.
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post #7 of 28 Old 06-12-2016, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Espen Andreassen View Post
Thanks a lot for the answers!

Is there any way I can do a better Sub EQ with the Yamaha RX-A2050? It seems like most people recommend it over the Denon AVR-X4200W in a head-to-head.

For your information I will be using a 5.1 setup for now, but will be wanting to add celling speakers after a while.

I also got someone selling a used Yamaha RX-A2050 for 7000 NOK (855 USD) which seems like a good option.

Your thoughts?

Kind regards,
Espen.
You're very welcome . I'm actually leaning towards a Yamaha receiver as well and I currently own an older Denon receiver. For the lower sub EQ you can get a MiniDSP or similar A/D/A DSP device that can have filters imported from a free room EQ program like REW using a calibrated USB mic, a laptop and a 90° calibration file. This will allow you to set filters below 31 Hz down to the tuning point of your sub for a better frequency response.

Yeah that sounds like a good price on a used A2050 I believe.

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post #8 of 28 Old 06-12-2016, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
"Charles H. Duell was the Commissioner of US patent office in 1899. Mr. Deull's most famous attributed utterance is that "everything that can be invented has been invented." Most patent attorneys have also heard that the quote is apocryphal"


It looks like you and Mr. Duell have a lot in common. You can besure the tech world is not going to stand still and wait for everyone to catch-up. Early adopters will pay through the nose to keep-up. Just in the past year with the hdmi video mixed in with avr units has made just year old avr units just about useless for the newest 4k video. It looks like the audio / video hardware makers found a group thats willing to pay up to keep up. The burn is this real need to upgrade ( the upgrade cycle) is getting shorter and shorter and the cost is getting higher. Of couse there are ways around this, like the samsung 8500, but if samsung was big into AVRs this unit would probably not exist with its dual hdmi outputs.
Why do you think that?
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post #9 of 28 Old 06-12-2016, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dragon_vibe View Post
No Such thing Future Proof AV Processor in fact No such thing as Future Proof Digital Product Including DACS/Room Correction Devices....

The only thing you can future proof, is spending more cash on Speakers and Amplifiers as this technology will likely hardly change.
Of course I know this, hence the "future proof" in the title.

But often receivers last a long time before you have to replace them if you are smart when you buy yours. My current receiver has lasted me for a long time, but with Atmos (or similar), 4k and HDR being introduced it is time to move on.

I don't see myself changing the receiver for quite some time again, as I don't see much important in the pipeline that will be game changers.

Obviously this might not be true, but from my knowledge it seems like the right time to upgrade the receiver.

Anyways, I thank you for the input. It is important to keep in the back of your mind that nothing is future proof in the electronic business
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post #10 of 28 Old 06-12-2016, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
You're very welcome . I'm actually leaning towards a Yamaha receiver as well and I currently own an older Denon receiver. For the lower sub EQ you can get a MiniDSP or similar A/D/A DSP device that can have filters imported from a free room EQ program like REW using a calibrated USB mic, a laptop and a 90° calibration file. This will allow you to set filters below 31 Hz down to the tuning point of your sub for a better frequency response.

Yeah that sounds like a good price on a used A2050 I believe.

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Again, thanks a lot for the help.

Pretty much decided on trying the used Yamaha RX-A2050 I got a deal on.

Guess I will have to look more into detail how to get the sub calibrated in the lower Hz region. As stated earlier I am a pretty novice user, so don't really have much experience with calibration.
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post #11 of 28 Old 06-12-2016, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Espen Andreassen View Post
Again, thanks a lot for the help.

Pretty much decided on trying the used Yamaha RX-A2050 I got a deal on.

Guess I will have to look more into detail how to get the sub calibrated in the lower Hz region. As stated earlier I am a pretty novice user, so don't really have much experience with calibration.
That's ok. It's not a must that you do any of the EQing under 31Hz. The Audyssey XT32 just emphasizes the bass region better than YPAO in 2015. Doesn't mean you can't get your subwoofer placed in room and sounding good without it . It just gives you the ability to fine tune any peaks or dips your room dimensions and the sub's placement produce for a flatter frequency response in room. You'll spend a few hundred dollars and there will be a learning curve with REW's initial setup and use plus there will be a cost dB wise for inserting a MiniDSP between your receiver and your sub that will require some gain boosting as well. I'd get an inexpensive digital SPL meter at first and let the "sub crawl technique" found online help you place your sub in room using your ear and or the SPL meter.

Then setup and run YOAO rsc room correction with your subs gain knob halfway up, phase set to 0, low pass filter knob set all the way over (120Hz or higher) then run your mics first position only. After running it check your receivers sub level setting for the offset to get the sub to reference level . It should be a - number along the lines of -3 or so. If not -6/-8 then raise the subs gain knob a bit and rerun YPAO first mic position and recheck the receivers level offset. Once you've obtained a -6/-8 offset within the receiver you can finish the other YPAO mic positions and when finished save your settings and go back into the receiver and write down the original offset for the sub then raise it several + dB from within the receivers settings but staying below 0dB. So if it was -7 you can raise it +5/+6 and still stay at -2/-1 thus staying under 0dB. This allows you to run your sub a bit hotter than reference over the other speakers but still allowing headroom to avoid clipping the amps input. It's perfectly safe done correctly and gives your sub a boost as well. Verify all your speakers are set to small as well under speaker settings and leave your subs gain knob setting alone after that(adjust from the receivers level settings after that) and you're all set.

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post #12 of 28 Old 06-12-2016, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by the7mcs View Post
Why do you think that?
Joe is referring to the Samsung UBD-K8500 4K UHD HDR Blu-ray media player and its dual HDMI 2.0a ports.

Quote:
Aside from this, there are dual HDMI 2.0a outputs. The main HDMI port is for 4K-compatible devices like your TV and comes with HDCP 2.2 integration. This can be connected to your 4K TV directly or to an AV Receiver or other display device. The K8500’s other HDMI port is designed to handle audio and is aimed at transmitting uncompressed audio codecs to older audio devices.
[Source: http://4k.com/devices/samsung-ubd-k8...w-ubd-k8500za/]

This means that you can retain your non HDMI 2.0a/HDCP 2.2 AVR and still enjoy 4K/UltraHD/HDR content delivered via the Samsung player. Sweet!
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post #13 of 28 Old 06-12-2016, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Dragon_vibe View Post
No Such thing Future Proof, Including Room Correction....
While automated room correction may be a relatively recent invention, Fourier's math has been around since the early 1800's:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_series

and the FFT algorithm version has been around since 1965: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Fourier_transform
Which all DSP and room correction is based upon, including manual or automated PEQ/DEQ/Phase/Delay functions etc etc.
and to this very day, they haven't changed.

TI was making DSP chips back in the early 80's and prototypes in the 70's. They've been doing it for a while.

The part that HAS changed/improved is the computing power and resolution and power consumption, noisefloor, channel count, and numerous add-on/built-in features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon_vibe View Post
No Such thing Future Proof AV Processor in fact No such thing as Future Proof Digital Product Including DACS/Room Correction Devices....

The only thing you can future proof, is spending more cash on Speakers and Amplifiers as this technology will likely hardly change.
That's why firmware and software exists.
Back in the 40's through 60's, Von Neumann and IBM discovered that fixed-design vacuum tube hardware just simply wouldn't do!

One could only imagine how easily-hackable and horribly-confused the world would be today if we needed new hardware for every single Browser and OS security patch, let alone updates and major upgrades.

The CPU is essentially a generic computing unit, it can run many totally different apps, even at the same time, and can run new apps that do new things without changing hardware. If we had to have a Windows CPU and a Chrome CPU and a Notepad CPU etc etc, we'd be in huge trouble.

The only reason Yahama and Sony etc etc etc wants you to buy a new receiver is because they make huge money off of you.
Datasat's and Trinnov's are essentially computers with fancy soundcard adapters attached on the back-plate. When they want to support Atmos or whatever new thing that comes out, they just code the software for it and BAM, the HDMI port supports it.
The only time they need to upgrade the HDMI port is when the number of pins or connector style changes. (Which is far more rare.)

The AVR companies have quite the hardware/chips monopoly game going on. (Because they can, and not because they must...)

The reason why they invent 90 different versions of USB, HDMI, DisplayPort and Thunderbolt is to get you to BUY BUY BUY. You of course already know this!
They also do it with wireless: A, B, G, N etc etc

Gotta force people to want to upgrade somehow... when all else fails they make them backwards-incompatible if people don't adopt the technology they will be forced to do it! (Want the fastest CPU? Gotta have the newest socket and RAM, and blaa blaa. )
DRAM, SDRAM, RDRAM, DDR1, DDR2, DDR3, DDR4, RDDR5! Sound familiar? It should!

I mean, I was auto-EQ'ing my room/speakers/subs back in 2001 with computer software.

100lb CRT's are no longer used, and neither are BFD+SPLmeter+spreadsheet, but the EQ is still basically the same concept (make the system play as flat and extended as possible!)

Like the tape? Yeah, I was erasing floppy disks with EQ'ed bass even as far back as that!

YPAO/Audyssey/DIRAC/REW/JRiver/miniDSP are just newer fancier versions of getting the same job done.

I'm pretty certain that 99% of the technology I bought in the last 25 years is now wrapped around a seagull's neck or stuck in a dolphin's blowhole somewhere floating in the ocean, or wherever it is that they put the trash these days! In addition to being totally-outdated and totally-useless, of course.
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post #14 of 28 Old 06-12-2016, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Espen Andreassen View Post
Of course I know this, hence the "future proof" in the title.

But often receivers last a long time before you have to replace them if you are smart when you buy yours. My current receiver has lasted me for a long time, but with Atmos (or similar), 4k and HDR being introduced it is time to move on.

I don't see myself changing the receiver for quite some time again, as I don't see much important in the pipeline that will be game changers.

Obviously this might not be true, but from my knowledge it seems like the right time to upgrade the receiver.

Anyways, I thank you for the input. It is important to keep in the back of your mind that nothing is future proof in the electronic business
Espen, when you're upgrading your speakers is never the right time to upgrade the receiver! Assuming you're on a finite budget and your current AVR isn't totally FUBAR, the main thing you're achieving is diverting current funds from the longest lasting components that make the biggest contribution to the sound (speakers/subs), towards a more transient component that makes the smallest contribution. Your Onkyo TX-NR805 is an old THX Ultra2 beast of a thing that will drive a full set of 4Ω speakers to reference in a large room. It's going to take a fair amount money to replace it without going too far backwards in output capability... the last thing you want to get tangled up with a major speaker upgrade, IMO.

Someone here much smarter than me once said: A "future-proof" AVR is just code for paying too much now for features you won't need for a long time, if ever. For instance, do you already have a UHD display, a player &/or access to UHD content? Even when you do get all those ducks in a row, there's still options that don't require a new AVR (see above). Realistically, how far in the future will you be getting the Atmos (etc.) speakers? Spotify, AirPlay etc? There are numerous connectivity/content options available via the included apps on the current generation of smart TV's.

Whatever you're looking at spending on the AVR will almost certainly make a larger long-term improvement when spent on speakers/subs. For example, getting bigger Dali Rubicons, going higher up the Dali lineup, going to another brand altogether, getting a better sub, even getting two subs. There's any number of options to maximise the proportion of your upgrade budget in the speaker area.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
While automated room correction may be a relatively recent invention, Fourier's math has been around since the early 1800's:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_series

and the FFT algorithm version has been around since 1965: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Fourier_transform
Which all DSP and room correction is based upon, including manual or automated PEQ/DEQ/Phase/Delay functions etc etc.
and to this very day, they haven't changed.

TI was making DSP chips back in the early 80's and prototypes in the 70's. They've been doing it for a while.

The part that HAS changed/improved is the computing power and resolution and power consumption, noisefloor, channel count, and numerous add-on/built-in features.



That's why firmware and software exists.
Back in the 40's through 60's, Von Neumann and IBM discovered that fixed-design vacuum tube hardware just simply wouldn't do!

One could only imagine how easily-hackable and horribly-confused the world would be today if we needed new hardware for every single Browser and OS security patch, let alone updates and major upgrades.

The CPU is essentially a generic computing unit, it can run many totally different apps, even at the same time, and can run new apps that do new things without changing hardware. If we had to have a Windows CPU and a Chrome CPU and a Notepad CPU etc etc, we'd be in huge trouble.

The only reason Yahama and Sony etc etc etc wants you to buy a new receiver is because they make huge money off of you.
Datasat's and Trinnov's are essentially computers with fancy soundcard adapters attached on the back-plate. When they want to support Atmos or whatever new thing that comes out, they just code the software for it and BAM, the HDMI port supports it.
The only time they need to upgrade the HDMI port is when the number of pins or connector style changes. (Which is far more rare.)

The AVR companies have quite the hardware/chips monopoly game going on. (Because they can, and not because they must...)

The reason why they invent 90 different versions of USB, HDMI, DisplayPort and Thunderbolt is to get you to BUY BUY BUY. You of course already know this!
They also do it with wireless: A, B, G, N etc etc

Gotta force people to want to upgrade somehow... when all else fails they make them backwards-incompatible if people don't adopt the technology they will be forced to do it! (Want the fastest CPU? Gotta have the newest socket and RAM, and blaa blaa. )
DRAM, SDRAM, RDRAM, DDR1, DDR2, DDR3, DDR4, RDDR5! Sound familiar? It should!

I mean, I was auto-EQ'ing my room/speakers/subs back in 2001 with computer software.

100lb CRT's are no longer used, and neither are BFD+SPLmeter+spreadsheet, but the EQ is still basically the same concept (make the system play as flat and extended as possible!)

Like the tape? Yeah, I was erasing floppy disks with EQ'ed bass even as far back as that!

YPAO/Audyssey/DIRAC/REW/JRiver/miniDSP are just newer fancier versions of getting the same job done.

I'm pretty certain that 99% of the technology I bought in the last 25 years is now wrapped around a seagull's neck or stuck in a dolphin's blowhole somewhere floating in the ocean, or wherever it is that they put the trash these days! In addition to being totally-outdated and totally-useless, of course.
This post is epic. Love the history lessons. Great stuff. I've still got some old floppy discs in my desk drawer. God knows why.

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post #16 of 28 Old 06-12-2016, 10:25 PM
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Espen, when you're upgrading your speakers is never the right time to upgrade the receiver.

Whatever you're looking at spending on the AVR will almost certainly make a larger long-term improvement when spent on speakers/subs. For example, getting bigger Dali Rubicons, going higher up the Dali lineup, going to another brand altogether, getting a better sub, even getting two subs. There's any number of options to maximise the proportion of your upgrade budget in the speaker area.
This is great advice. I skimped on my sub's and had to take a loss and pay more in the end to get my bass right and I skimped on my mains before that and now I've got some Chane's on the way to fix that error but I still have my 10 plus year old Denon receiver running it all and it works and sounds great. Should sound even better when I get my Chane's. I liked reading your speaker sensitivity /receiver power explanation earlier as well . Good stuff.



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post #17 of 28 Old 06-12-2016, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
Espen, when you're upgrading your speakers is never the right time to upgrade the receiver!

Whatever you're looking at spending on the AVR will almost certainly make a larger long-term improvement when spent on speakers/subs. For example, getting bigger Dali Rubicons, going higher up the Dali lineup, going to another brand altogether, getting a better sub, even getting two subs. There's any number of options to maximise the proportion of your upgrade budget in the speaker area.
This is great advice. I skimped on my sub's and had to take a loss and pay more in the end to get my bass right and I skimped on my mains before that and now I've got some Chane's on the way to fix that error but I still have my 10 plus year old Denon receiver running it all and it works and sounds great. Should sound even better when I get my Chane's. I liked reading your speaker sensitivity /receiver power explanation earlier as well . Good stuff.
Thankyou TexasMax. Your system's coming together nicely, I'm particularly a fan of Rythmik's subs.


A further option for @Espen Andreassen I neglected to mention is to consider delaying the replacement of the surrounds for a while, if it allows you to step a class in the LCR speakers.

There's no rule to say surrounds must be from the same brand/line from day one. You might even find the mix of speakers is quite acceptable, particularly if multichannel music listening isn't your dominant use.
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post #18 of 28 Old 06-13-2016, 12:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Thankyou TexasMax. Your system's coming together nicely, I'm particularly a fan of Rythmik's subs.


A further option for @Espen Andreassen I neglected to mention is to consider delaying the replacement of the surrounds for a while, if it allows you to step a class in the LCR speakers.

There's no rule to say surrounds must be from the same brand/line from day one. You might even find the mix of speakers is quite acceptable, particularly if multichannel music listening isn't your dominant use.
I will just respond to both of your latest posts (not quoting both). First of thanks a lot for the helpful response.

If the choice was solely up to me I would be keeping my Klipsch-setup and Onkyo-receiver for a while longer, but with partner moving in the choice is not only mine anymore (WAF... ).

I have gotten some guidelines I basically have to follow to keep her happy and that is first of that the system is as discreet as possible, and she would not like floor standing front speakers (and to be honest, she does not really want book speakers either) and smaller back/surround speakers than I previously had.

This limits my options by quite some margin and with the Norwegian market not delivering all the brands globally I have had to make some sacrifices. After quite some time researching speakers and receivers (as well as the looks of these...) I have found the Rubicon series from Dali to match most demands.

As for the receiver, I have loved it to bits, BUT the heat it produces will be a massive problem when our new media-furniture arrives (Bolia Opus2 in walnut finish). I will probably have some problems with most receivers in the furniture, but I can't see them producing anywhere near the amount of heat the Onkyo TX-SR805 has put out.

My thinking behind the system at the current time is that going for the Dali Rubicon LCRs as the fronts at the current time will leave me with the option of moving these as, i.e., surround speakers later on when I get a larger apartment that will allow for floor standing speakers without taking up too much of the room.

What is your (or others') opinion on the setup I have suggested:

- Dali Rubicon LCR (fronts)
- Dali Rubicon Vokal (centre that will be in the middle room of the media-furniture)
- Dali Fazon SAT/LCR (surround/back speakers, as I said they have to be discreet, and I don't feel my surround speakers are the must important in this current system at the present)
- Bowers & Wilkins DB1 (I don't have the room for two subwoofers at the current time)
- New receiver (most likely the Yamaha RX-A2050)

As for a new TV and such I am currently on the hunt for one of the new LG OLED 65'' TVs (most likely the B-series as I don't really see the C, E or G series being worth the extra money).

Hope this clarifies my situation and why I am making some sacrifices along the way. As I have pointed out I am no expert within the Hi-Fi world, so all the help I can get from more experienced people is always welcomed.

PS! As mentioned above I have felt my Onkyo TX-SR805 running very hot. Can anyone give me their experience on the Yamaha RX-A2050 in this department?
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post #19 of 28 Old 06-13-2016, 12:44 AM
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Thankyou TexasMax. Your system's coming together nicely, I'm particularly a fan of Rythmik's subs.


A further option for @Espen Andreassen I neglected to mention is to consider delaying the replacement of the surrounds for a while, if it allows you to step a class in the LCR speakers.

There's no rule to say surrounds must be from the same brand/line from day one. You might even find the mix of speakers is quite acceptable, particularly if multichannel music listening isn't your dominant use.
Thank's for the Texas shoutout. Not a native but I've been here over 30 years so hopefully I'm close .From my handle you can tell where my favorite movies are from 😁. I agree with the side surrounds not having to match as well. I have Klipsch towers(till Tuesday) a BIC center and BIC side surrounds and it blends perfectly well. They only get about 15% or so of the movie content so to me their placement is more key than their type.

Yeah, I like my Rythmik's. First really nice ID sub I've owned and not just researched and recommended. I've always tried to get cute with my speaker/sub purchases and save a buck but sometimes a buck needs to be spent. I'm happier now with my mix and lesson learned.

Keep up the full descriptive technical explanations . It's helpful to us non technical audio types like myself that have a willingness to listen and learn although sometimes I have to read them over a couple of times. My father was the electrician in the family not me.

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post #20 of 28 Old 06-13-2016, 01:10 AM
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If the choice was solely up to me I would be keeping my Klipsch-setup
My Klipsch's are going away as well so I understand.

[quote/] As for the receiver, I have loved it to bits, BUT the heat it produces will be a massive problem when our new media-furniture arrives (Bolia Opus2 in walnut finish). I will probably have some problems with most receivers in the furniture, but I can't see them producing anywhere near the amount of heat the Onkyo TX-SR805 has put out [/quote]

My old Onkyo before my current older Denon put out a lot of heat as well.

[quote/] for a new TV and such I am currently on the hunt for one of the new LG OLED 65'' TVs (most likely the B-series as I don't really see the C, E or G series being worth the money [/quote]

That's the sweet spot for me as well in the new 6 series. Flat screen, no 3D but conflicting reports over having Dolby Vision in anything but the G series. Still will have HDR10 though and the same screen as the higher models. Good choice.

[quote/] PS! As mentioned above I have felt my Onkyo TX-SR805 running very hot. Can anyone give me their experience on the Yamaha RX-A2050 in this department? [/quote]

I've researched the Yamaha Aventage series 2015 models to death as I'm pretty sure it will be my next receiver purchase so even though I don't currently own one they are supposed to run cooler due to the designed left and right separation of the amps with the power supply placed in the middle and both away from the HDMI/Video board. Still best to have all receivers well ventilated with about 3" of space around it but I'm pretty sure it will run cooler than your Onkyo. I've also picked a few Yamaha receiver owners brain's on this subject as well.



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My Klipsch's are going away as well so I understand.

[quote/] As for the receiver, I have loved it to bits, BUT the heat it produces will be a massive problem when our new media-furniture arrives (Bolia Opus2 in walnut finish). I will probably have some problems with most receivers in the furniture, but I can't see them producing anywhere near the amount of heat the Onkyo TX-SR805 has put out
My old Onkyo before my current older Denon put out a lot of heat as well.

[quote/] for a new TV and such I am currently on the hunt for one of the new LG OLED 65'' TVs (most likely the B-series as I don't really see the C, E or G series being worth the money [/quote]

That's the sweet spot for me as well in the new 6 series. Flat screen, no 3D but conflicting reports over having Dolby Vision in anything but the G series. Still will have HDR10 though and the same screen as the higher models. Good choice.

[quote/] PS! As mentioned above I have felt my Onkyo TX-SR805 running very hot. Can anyone give me their experience on the Yamaha RX-A2050 in this department? [/quote]

I've researched the Yamaha Aventage series 2015 models to death as I'm pretty sure it will be my next receiver purchase so even though I don't currently own one they are supposed to run cooler due to the designed left and right separation of the amps with the power supply placed in the middle and both away from the HDMI/Video board. Still best to have all receivers well ventilated with about 3" of space around it but I'm pretty sure it will run cooler than your Onkyo. I've also picked a few Yamaha receiver owners brain's on this subject as well.



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Thanks again Madmax67 for your informative answers.

It sounds like the Yamaha Aventage 2015-series might be a good choice for what I am looking for.

I have seen that the new 2016-series are being released at the present time, and I see that they have improved YPAO (especially in the sub-region going as low as 15Hz now). What is your thoughts on this new series? Is it really worth the extra money (it will be about twice as much for me seeing I am buying the Yamaha RX-A2050 used), and looking at the new specifications it is mainly the Sub EQ and better 3D calibration that the 2016-series seems to offer over the 2015-series. Your thoughts on this? Any workaround to achieve the lacking functionality in the 2015-series or is it really not that big of a deal?

As a side note I have considered putting two PC fans at the back of the media-furniture pushing in air from the back as the space is kind of tight within the furniture. I believe (and hope) that this should limit any potential heating issues, especially if the Yamaha RX-A2050 does not typically run too hot.
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post #22 of 28 Old 06-13-2016, 10:03 AM
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I've researched the Yamaha Aventage series 2015 models to death as I'm pretty sure it will be my next receiver purchase so even though I don't currently own one they are supposed to run cooler due to the designed left and right separation of the amps with the power supply placed in the middle and both away from the HDMI/Video board. Still best to have all receivers well ventilated with about 3" of space around it but I'm pretty sure it will run cooler than your Onkyo. I've also picked a few Yamaha receiver owners brain's on this subject as well.

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Hello,

I'm curious if you did much comparison between the 2014 and 2015 Aventage lines and what advantages you feel the 2015 products offer in comparison to the 2014 products. The reason I'm asking is that I'm considering a RX-A3040. The only real differences I'm aware of are that the 2015 models offer support for DTS:X, HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0a. I really don't know the benefits of any of those, but I think it's related to support for sound processing, 4K & HDR video content. It's likely those features may never be used in my setup, which currently consists of a television and center channel.
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post #23 of 28 Old 06-13-2016, 12:54 PM
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Hello,

I'm curious if you did much comparison between the 2014 and 2015 Aventage lines and what advantages you feel the 2015 products offer in comparison to the 2014 products. The reason I'm asking is that I'm considering a RX-A3040. The only real differences I'm aware of are that the 2015 models offer support for DTS:X, HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0a. I really don't know the benefits of any of those, but I think it's related to support for sound processing, 4K & HDR video content. It's likely those features may never be used in my setup, which currently consists of a television and center channel.
The first is a height effects codec from DTS to play DTS-X encoded discs which there are very few available. If your not going to add presence or in ceiling speakers then that's not an issue.HDCP 2.2 is a copyright protection format for certain 4K content to play. There are ways to get around it with a UHD 4K player with multiple HDMI outputs and again if your not on the 4K kick then this also may not be necessary for your situation. HDMI 2.0a is the newer High dynamic range passthrough for 4K t.v.'s that can play HDR content. Again it's not necessary for normal playback or even 4K playback but it and the other 2 features does future proof a bit more than the A2040. Unless the price difference was great I'd personally get the newer receiver but if you're sure you don't care about these differences and the savings is acceptable to you then go for it.

Also verify other than that they are similar which I believe,they are but I didn't research the A2040 much.

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post #24 of 28 Old 06-13-2016, 01:36 PM
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[quote/] Thanks again Madmax67 for your informative answers.

It sounds like the Yamaha Aventage 2015-series might be a good choice for what I am looking for.

I have seen that the new 2016-series are being released at the present time, and I see that they have improved YPAO (especially in the sub-region going as low as 15Hz now). What is your thoughts on this new series? Is it really worth the extra money (it will be about twice as much for me seeing I am buying the Yamaha RX-A2050 used), and looking at the new specifications it is mainly the Sub EQ and better 3D calibration that the 2016-series seems to offer over the 2015-series. Your thoughts on this? Any workaround to achieve the lacking functionality in the 2015-series or is it really not that big of a deal?

As a side note I have considered putting two PC fans at the back of the media-furniture pushing in air from the back as the space is kind of tight within the furniture. I believe (and hope) that this should limit any potential heating issues, especially if the Yamaha RX-A2050 does not typically run too hot. [/quote]



You're welcome. The A2060 add manual sub calibration down to 15.6 Hz .The included calibrated mic doesn't go below 31Hz so you would need to get a USB calibrated mic and import a frequency response with filters recommended using free software REW (room EQ wizard.) The 3D angle measurement comes down from the A3050 to the A2060 and is nice but it's up to you to decide if it's worth the extra money. The only workaround is to get a MiniDSP and calibrated USB mic and use REW to flatten the frequency response sub 31Hz. Whether it's a big deal or not I think has more to do with the individual and their space and how they feel their bass sounds. The temp issue I think is important but electronics are built with room to handle temp swings and unless you are containing the receiver in a totally enclosed space it should be fine but if you get some fans I'd get the larger 120 mm. ones but I believe there isn't a USB port on the rear of the A2050 just the front so it probably should have it's own power supply.

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post #25 of 28 Old 06-14-2016, 11:52 PM
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I will just respond to both of your latest posts (not quoting both). First of thanks a lot for the helpful response.

If the choice was solely up to me I would be keeping my Klipsch-setup and Onkyo-receiver for a while longer, but with partner moving in the choice is not only mine anymore (WAF... ).
Completely understandable.

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Originally Posted by Espen Andreassen View Post
I have gotten some guidelines I basically have to follow to keep her happy and that is first of that the system is as discreet as possible, and she would not like floor standing front speakers (and to be honest, she does not really want book speakers either) and smaller back/surround speakers than I previously had.

This limits my options by quite some margin and with the Norwegian market not delivering all the brands globally I have had to make some sacrifices. After quite some time researching speakers and receivers (as well as the looks of these...) I have found the Rubicon series from Dali to match most demands.
Did you check out another Danish brand, Artcoustic Loudspeakers? Artcoustic use multiple high-grade ScanSpeak ring radiator tweeters and midwoofers plus some clever crossover design and trade off unnecessary (with a sub) low frequency capability to deliver high sensitivity, low profile speakers.

A system comprising 40-30 6-3 SL mains, C-1 SL centre and Target SL surrounds would offer a high level of performance in a discrete form factor. [UK retail prices.]


The best thing about them is the bigger the pieces of "art" the bride wants, the more kick-ass speaker you get!

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Originally Posted by Espen Andreassen View Post
As for the receiver, I have loved it to bits, BUT the heat it produces will be a massive problem when our new media-furniture arrives (Bolia Opus2 in walnut finish). I will probably have some problems with most receivers in the furniture, but I can't see them producing anywhere near the amount of heat the Onkyo TX-SR805 has put out.
Would the attraction of high quality discrete speakers like the Artcoustics be enough to grant the old Onkyo a temporary stay of execution so you can afford them? The Onkyo could be put on top of the cabinet, or on the floor beside it for the interim.

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Originally Posted by Espen Andreassen View Post
My thinking behind the system at the current time is that going for the Dali Rubicon LCRs as the fronts at the current time will leave me with the option of moving these as, i.e., surround speakers later on when I get a larger apartment that will allow for floor standing speakers without taking up too much of the room.
Moving mains to surround duty later on when you have a larger room is a very smart strategy. Thumbs up!

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What is your (or others') opinion on the setup I have suggested:

- Dali Rubicon LCR (fronts)
- Dali Rubicon Vokal (centre that will be in the middle room of the media-furniture)
- Dali Fazon SAT/LCR (surround/back speakers, as I said they have to be discreet, and I don't feel my surround speakers are the must important in this current system at the present)
- Bowers & Wilkins DB1 (I don't have the room for two subwoofers at the current time)
- New receiver (most likely the Yamaha RX-A2050)
I suspect you're probably paying a premium for the B&W sub. How does the price compare to the shipped price of say the Monolith Plus from BK Electronics? How do SVS subs compare price-wise?
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PS! As mentioned above I have felt my Onkyo TX-SR805 running very hot. Can anyone give me their experience on the Yamaha RX-A2050 in this department?
I know you are leaning toward the Yamaha but I have the US version of the Pioneer you are looking at and I have been pleasantly surprised at how cool it runs. It uses class D amps that put out a lot of sound while running pretty cool by comparison. I still own an Onkyo 605 that while not as beastly as your 805 still put out that signature Onkyo heat. The Pioneer has been great in this regard.
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Completely understandable.


Did you check out another Danish brand, Artcoustic Loudspeakers? Artcoustic use multiple high-grade ScanSpeak ring radiator tweeters and midwoofers plus some clever crossover design and trade off unnecessary (with a sub) low frequency capability to deliver high sensitivity, low profile speakers.

A system comprising 40-30 6-3 SL mains, C-1 SL centre and Target SL surrounds would offer a high level of performance in a discrete form factor. [UK retail prices.]


The best thing about them is the bigger the pieces of "art" the bride wants, the more kick-ass speaker you get!


Would the attraction of high quality discrete speakers like the Artcoustics be enough to grant the old Onkyo a temporary stay of execution so you can afford them? The Onkyo could be put on top of the cabinet, or on the floor beside it for the interim.


Moving mains to surround duty later on when you have a larger room is a very smart strategy. Thumbs up!


I suspect you're probably paying a premium for the B&W sub. How does the price compare to the shipped price of say the Monolith Plus from BK Electronics? How do SVS subs compare price-wise?
Thanks again for your informative thoughts.

I have actually looked at the Artcoustic speakers, but as I have been trying to buy most of my speakers used they are much harder to come by, and their starting price-point is a bit higher than the Dali Rubicon series.

Is the Dali Rubicon series that much "worse" than these speakers? From my understanding Dali Rubicon are suppose to be quite decent speakers. I have also got a deal on a pair of used Dali Rubicon LCRs in walnut finish (which matches the rest of our apartment).

As for moving the Onkyo on top or next to the media-furniture that is a no-go... And the Onkyo does not support 4k and HDR which is one of the reasons I am getting rid of it (including the head issues).

As for the B&W DB1 subwoofer I am buying it used, and I have got a decent price on one in rose nut finish. In Norway they actually cost 35000 NOK (4200 USD) new, so quite a bit overpriced, and I am getting mine for 15700 NOK (1900 USD) with Nordost power cable, a subwoofer cable and 4 Soundcare SuperSpikes.
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post #28 of 28 Old 06-15-2016, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I know you are leaning toward the Yamaha but I have the US version of the Pioneer you are looking at and I have been pleasantly surprised at how cool it runs. It uses class D amps that put out a lot of sound while running pretty cool by comparison. I still own an Onkyo 605 that while not as beastly as your 805 still put out that signature Onkyo heat. The Pioneer has been great in this regard.
Thanks for the reply.

I have considered the Pioneer, but it is hard to look past the Yamaha at 7000 NOK used (840 USD) compared to the Pioneer for 15000 NOK (1800 USD) new as I have not seen one of these used as of yet here in Norway.
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