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Old 07-10-2016, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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AVR with digital [DAC] by-pass

I'm looking to replace my Denon AVR-590 * with a AVR that will allow me to connect an out-board DAC and ATST by-pass the internal AVR DAC. Just to clarify, I'm using the RCA output on the DAC to the analog input on the AVR. Any recommendations in the $500 range would be appreciated. Perhaps a dedicated pre-amp would be another option. TIA.


* The 590 has this feature but only in stereo mode.

Last edited by MothAudio; 07-10-2016 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 07-10-2016, 11:10 PM
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Old 07-11-2016, 04:43 AM - Thread Starter
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^^ Thanks. Funny I was eye-ballin' their SR5008 as a possible upgrade.
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Old 07-11-2016, 07:44 AM
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Give JD from AV Science a call for pricing - see one of the Denon/Marantz threads for his number (first page). Given its the "end of the year" for the 5008 and others, you might be able to get a really good deal. Plus he can run through all your options, pro/cons, etc. Good luck.

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Old 07-11-2016, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
Give JD from AV Science a call for pricing - see one of the Denon/Marantz threads for his number (first page). Given its the "end of the year" for the 5008 and others, you might be able to get a really good deal. Plus he can run through all your options, pro/cons, etc. Good luck.
Thanks for the props.

The SR5008 was actually released in 2013 so 3 years old now. With the exception of the 2015 SR6010 and SR7010/AV7702MKII, AVS no longer sells any of the lower level 2015 Marantz models as well as none of the 2014 and older models, rather only the newer 2016 models to include the SR5011 which we expect in the warehouse tomorrow.
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Old 07-11-2016, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Thanks for the props.

The SR5008 was actually released in 2013 so 3 years old now. With the exception of the 2015 SR6010 and SR7010/AV7702MKII, AVS no longer sells any of the lower level 2015 Marantz models as well as none of the 2014 and older models, rather only the newer 2016 models to include the SR5011 which we expect in the warehouse tomorrow.
Sorry JD, didn't even pay attention to the model number, that's what happens when posting and working. If it was me looking for a deal I'd still give you a call, as you know I learned my lesson a few years ago. I've bought from A4L before, I would always check the prices of new units before going the refurb route as I've experience the DOA refurb on arrival phenomenon - via Amazon, not A4L. Wife's attempt to save a few $ on her son's birthday present, she ended up having to get something at Worst Buy at a much higher cost due to time, should have asked me

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Old 07-11-2016, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
Sorry JD, didn't even pay attention to the model number, that's what happens when posting and working. If it was me looking for a deal I'd still give you a call, as you know I learned my lesson a few years ago. I've bought from A4L before, I would always check the prices of new units before going the refurb route as I've experience the DOA refurb on arrival phenomenon - via Amazon, not A4L. Wife's attempt to save a few $ on her son's birthday present, she ended up having to get something at Worst Buy at a much higher cost due to time, should have asked me
Yup.
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Old 07-11-2016, 09:59 AM
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These 7.1 analog inputs have no DSP applied to them?

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Old 07-11-2016, 10:25 AM
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You cannot set a sound mode when using the 7.1 analog inputs, so no DSP will be applied to them.

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Old 07-11-2016, 10:33 AM
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You're not gonna find a new model with 7.1 analog inputs under $500. Not that many receiver have them in the first place anymore. So refurb/used is the only way to go if that's your budget limit.

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Old 07-11-2016, 11:03 AM
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MothAudio,

Here is a new receiver with 7.1 analog inputs and 3 year warranty but it has no networking, not 4K or HDMI 2.0. But if 7.1 analog is your main concern then maybe it will do the trick.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make...ver-new/1.html

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Old 07-11-2016, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
MothAudio,

Here is a new receiver with 7.1 analog inputs and 3 year warranty but it has no networking, not 4K or HDMI 2.0. But if 7.1 analog is your main concern then maybe it will do the trick.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make...ver-new/1.html

Thanks so much guys, really appreciate the leads. Actually this looks interesting - one more HDMI input than my Denon, non-captive power cord, and addresses my need for signal processing bypass for 5.1-7.1 channels.

I'm more of an audio guy. now exploring multi-channel replay. I don't really require anything more elaborate on the video front.
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Old 07-11-2016, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
You cannot set a sound mode when using the 7.1 analog inputs, so no DSP will be applied to them.
I wouldn't count on that without seeing the schematic. It's a big assumption to make, if for no other reason than it's very cheap and easy to do all the volume control in DSP for all sources, but adds a lot of complexity and added switching and control to do some of it entirely in the analog domain. This would be an option very few users would actually use, so of little sales benefit to Marantz especially in the lower price ranges.
I think you've made a huge assumption that may not be backed up in reality.
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Old 07-11-2016, 01:44 PM
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Not really, it came from the Marantz sr5009 manual.

page 177.

Quote:
0 The sound mode cannot be set if the input mode is set to “7.1CH IN”.

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Old 07-11-2016, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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After doing some research, looks like there's been some reliability issues with the Cambridge. Too bad the Denon doesn't accept a surround processor / pre-amp.
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Old 07-11-2016, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
Sorry JD, didn't even pay attention to the model number, that's what happens when posting and working. If it was me looking for a deal I'd still give you a call, as you know I learned my lesson a few years ago. I've bought from A4L before, I would always check the prices of new units before going the refurb route as I've experience the DOA refurb on arrival phenomenon - via Amazon, not A4L. Wife's attempt to save a few $ on her son's birthday present, she ended up having to get something at Worst Buy at a much higher cost due to time, should have asked me

She should realize that she lacks in judgment. After all, she married you.

Now get to work and stop playing.
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Old 07-11-2016, 03:46 PM
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She should realize that she lacks in judgment. After all, she married you.

Now get to work and stop playing.
We agree on something

I definitely got lucky, and she's hung in for 18 years
God bless her.

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Old 07-11-2016, 05:29 PM
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To bypass ADC just make sure pure direct or direct is used. DAC is used when inputs like toslink and coaxial digital is used. I've noticed that when using the 7.1 multi ch inputs, there is a slight buzz and higher noise floor than using a regular input such as CD analog in. Don't know why but it's like that for all my av receivers. Always get better results from all other analog ins compared to multi-ch-ins. The DAC I use is a emotiva xda-2 gen2.

Most people will not notice a difference between the 2 inputs. I'm just very picky with noise floor and other line interference. This is why I use Toslink SPDIF instead of USB with my DAC.
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Old 07-11-2016, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
Not really, it came from the Marantz sr5009 manual.

page 177.
That tells you nothing about the actual signal path. Just because they don't allow the surround modes to be chosen with that input doesn't mean that the signal is not routed through the DSP to do volume control just like every other input is. I base what I'm saying off owning a large number of service manuals for AVRs and how I've said, is how they do it.
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Old 07-11-2016, 06:51 PM
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Well, if that is truly a concern then have you called the manufacturer to verify? If so, what did they say?

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Old 07-12-2016, 10:24 AM
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If you are going through all this effort then you should probably also look at purely analog options like Integrated Amps or stereo receivers.
Unless they also have DSPs at some level.

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Old 07-12-2016, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by nbp_civic View Post
To bypass ADC just make sure pure direct or direct is used. DAC is used when inputs like toslink and coaxial digital is used. I've noticed that when using the 7.1 multi ch inputs, there is a slight buzz and higher noise floor than using a regular input such as CD analog in. Don't know why but it's like that for all my av receivers. Always get better results from all other analog ins compared to multi-ch-ins. The DAC I use is a emotiva xda-2 gen2.

Most people will not notice a difference between the 2 inputs. I'm just very picky with noise floor and other line interference. This is why I use Toslink SPDIF instead of USB with my DAC.
From what I've seen in some Marantz AVR's and AVP's, and this is like true of other manufacturers as well, it makes sense that you would hear differences between various inputs.

In the gear I've seen, the overall volume is controlled by one or more eight channel, active, volume controls, such as the discontinued Renesas R2A15220 (a JRC NJW1299 is likely similar). These chips allow direct input of single-ended signals and can switch from one set of eight channel inputs to another and often preform more complex switching as well. The chips allow amplification of the signal if desired. They are low cost and are designed specifically for this purpose. The output from each channel is from an opamp that is internal to the volume chip.

Multi-channel inputs typically go directly to these chips, then to the output stage - often HDAM's in the case of a lot of Marantz gear.

Two channel inputs are landed ahead of an ADC on a switch where can go to the ADC or often directly to the volume control. This input is different from the volume control and may be of higher quality: lower noise and distortion since the two channel inputs are presumed to be from higher quality sources.

The ADC output is routed to the DSP chips along with any digital inputs; HDMI, Toslink, etc. The DSP chips do their thing, but don't do overall volume control because this would have a negative effect on the signal to noise ratio, and would also increase distortion. Feeding an attenuated signal to the following DAC chips, which have OK, but not exceptional S/N ratios, would lower the S/N ratio of the whole unit. A digitally attenuated signal will also increase the % distortion from the DAC chip, especially if it is attenuated by 10dB or more.

The digital signal is then sent to one or more, eight channel or two channel DAC's, depending on the unit. These are voltage output DAC's with limited head room. The signal goes from the DAC's to the volume control(s) and then to the output stage as described above.

All of this works quite well. The performance from relatively low cost units is amazing.
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Old 07-26-2016, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm looking to replace my Denon AVR-590 * with a AVR that will allow me to connect an out-board DAC and ATST by-pass the internal AVR DAC. Just to clarify, I'm using the RCA output on the DAC to the analog input on the AVR. Any recommendations in the $500 range would be appreciated. Perhaps a dedicated pre-amp would be another option. TIA.


* The 590 has this feature but only in stereo mode.

Would there be any benefit in using another DAC even if it was then re-sampled by the Denon?

Last edited by MothAudio; 07-26-2016 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 07-26-2016, 05:27 PM
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Would there be any benefit in using another DAC even if it was then re-sampled by the Denon?
No.
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