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post #1 of 34 Old 07-17-2016, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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The Holy Grail of Home Theater Processors

There aren't any affordable processors on the market right now that handle more than 11.2 channels. Those that do, are not priced where mere mortals can afford to buy them. When I talk to the manufacturer reps, they say there isn't a sizable market for home theaters larger than 7.1.4 to justify developing a chip set that processes above 11.1 channels for the mass market.

However, I believe that as the immersive sound format matures, it will receive an even greater emphasis in movie sound tracks, and will become much more commonplace in home installations. Just like in surround sound, where many home theaters started at 5.1 them moved to 7.1, and finally 9.1 with heights, the immersive sound installations will expand in size over time.

I believe there is a growing demand right now for more than 4 height channels, the ability to remap speaker placement between Atmos and Auro positions (and even compensate for sub-optimal locations), plus advanced phase and time room correction like Dirac processing. Right now there is a sizable void between the $3,999 Marrantz AV 8802a at $4,000 and the more expensive $20,000+ processors listed below.

Hopefully the nest generation of Immersive Sound AV processors will provide these additional features at a more reasonable price. Below is my interpretation of the feature set in a affordable processor that would be the Holy Grail of Home Theater many of us are searching for. Sort of an AV enthusiast's "Bill of Rights" if you will... Is there anything else you would add to this list, and when do you think can we expect to see such an ideal product?





On the other hand, if you have the disposable income and are willing to risk six figures for a processor (that may become obsolete in a rapidly changing AV market), then the following options are currently "available" to you:


Steinway Lyngdorf P200

16 channel $18,000

The Steinway Lyngdorf P200 preamp/processor is capable of handling up to 16 native audio channels in multiple output configurations. It includes both Dolby Atmos and AURO-3D decoding, and can do virtual speaker position remapping so that one speaker configuration will be optimized for both formats.


Trinnov Altitude 16/24/32

16 channel $28,000
24 channel $33,000
32 channel $37,000

The Trinnov Altitude 32 processor can be configured for 8, 16, 24 or 32 independent channels. It supports AURO-3D and Dolby Atmos as well as advanced speaker remapping technology to take advantage of both AURO-3D and Dolby Atmos, which each have different recommended speaker placements.


Datasat Digital Rs20i/Ls10

15 channel $11,000
16 channel $21,000

The Datasat processors will support up to 16 channels (Rs20i) and up to 15 channels (Ls10). They include both AURO-3D and Dolby Atmos decoding with Dirac Live on the Lc10 and full Dirac room correction on the Rs20i.


Theta Digital Casablanca IV/V

12 channel $17,995
24 channel $21,995

The Theta Digital Casablanca processor supports 12 channels (IV) or 16 channels (V). They include both AURO-3D and Dolby Atmos decoding.
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post #2 of 34 Old 07-17-2016, 06:03 PM
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I have heard recorded 2 channel music where just 2 front speakers can throw a sound image 4 feet above your seated head, 5 feet behind you, basically anywhere you record/mix it to be thrown...so I feel the emphasis should be on the recording studios and not on having 32 different point sources.
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post #3 of 34 Old 07-17-2016, 06:25 PM
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There is no need for custom chips and expensive processors. A desktop pc has enough horsepower to handle all this and more. The problem is the market for these things is 'audiophiles' with big pockets and custom installers who can then charge big bucks, and no one wants a cheap solution.
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post #4 of 34 Old 07-17-2016, 06:41 PM
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i feel like there is a market for 'cheap' quality/'high end' feature equipment. but, not a big one.

most of my friends consider soundbars a pretty impressive sound system. those who are a bit more 'high end' might have a 5.1 system with a real receiver, but more likely it's a HTIB.

of the other 5% that actually have a 'theater', they are likely either able to afford the big toys, or don't have a room that could support 72 speakers anyway... i mean, it wasn't until i moved that i could even go above 5.1, and even with the unfinished basement, i really don't know how i'd justify going over 7.1.4

as somebody else said, at this point it should be more about the quality than the quantity, but at the same time, more speakers can somewhat compensate for room issues and less than ideal speaker placements. that stereo soundtrack might sound '3D' when you sit dead center with perfect speaker placement and room treatments, but you need surround speakers to get that effect in the typical living room

it's unfortunate, cause i know some ppl would like it. personally, i'm still waiting for a receiver that supports 7.1.4 without external amps, and costs under 1000

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post #5 of 34 Old 07-17-2016, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
There aren't any affordable processors on the market right now that handle more than 11.2 channels.
Your points are well taken. The capabilities and price points you've indicated describe a market for "we" enthusiasts between the HTIB and elite folks...a market with an ROI much too small for manufacturers to currently consider. I totally agree with your assessment in terms of potential market growth and in particular the impatience for the availability of product sooner rather than later. However, it's probably reasonable to expect that it will take at least several years for "affordable" product to materialize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
On the other hand, if you have the disposable income and are willing to risk six figures for a processor (that may become obsolete in a rapidly changing AV market)...
A major key point...I'm typically on an upgrade/replacement cycle path of three years and technology moves faster!

BTW OT but...dual Cap 1400's are currently on my short list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
i'm still waiting for a receiver that supports 7.1.4 without external amps, and costs under 1000
This is likely where the mass market manufacturers see the "current" market need...but realistically under $2000 street.

Panasonic: PT-AE3000 Front Projector
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Onkyo: TX-NR636 (5.2.2)
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post #6 of 34 Old 07-17-2016, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
There aren't any affordable processors on the market right now that handle more than 11.2 channels. Those that do, are not priced where mere mortals can afford to buy them. When I talk to the manufacturer reps, they say there isn't a sizable market for home theaters larger than 7.1.4 to justify developing a chip set that processes above 11.1 channels for the mass market.

However, I believe that as the immersive sound format matures, it will receive an even greater emphasis in movie sound tracks, and will become much more commonplace in home installations. Just like in surround sound, where many home theaters started at 5.1 them moved to 7.1, and finally 9.1 with heights, the immersive sound installations will expand in size over time.

I believe there is a growing demand right now for more than 4 height channels, the ability to remap speaker placement between Atmos and Auro positions (and even compensate for sub-optimal locations), plus advanced phase and time room correction like Dirac processing. Right now there is a sizable void between the $3,999 Marrantz AV 8802a at $4,000 and the more expensive $20,000+ processors listed below.

Hopefully the nest generation of Immersive Sound AV processors will provide these additional features at a more reasonable price. Below is my interpretation of the feature set in a affordable processor that would be the Holy Grail of Home Theater many of us are searching for. Sort of an AV enthusiast's "Bill of Rights" if you will... Is there anything else you would add to this list, and when do you think can we expect to see such an ideal product?

On the other hand, if you have the disposable income and are willing to risk six figures for a processor (that may become obsolete in a rapidly changing AV market), then the following options are currently "available" to you:


Steinway Lyngdorf P200

16 channel $18,000

The Steinway Lyngdorf P200 preamp/processor is capable of handling up to 16 native audio channels in multiple output configurations. It includes both Dolby Atmos and AURO-3D decoding, and can do virtual speaker position remapping so that one speaker configuration will be optimized for both formats.


Trinnov Altitude 16/24/32

16 channel $28,000
24 channel $33,000
32 channel $37,000

The Trinnov Altitude 32 processor can be configured for 8, 16, 24 or 32 independent channels. It supports AURO-3D and Dolby Atmos as well as advanced speaker remapping technology to take advantage of both AURO-3D and Dolby Atmos, which each have different recommended speaker placements.


Datasat Digital Rs20i/Ls10

15 channel $11,000
16 channel $21,000

The Datasat processors will support up to 16 channels (Rs20i) and up to 15 channels (Ls10). They include both AURO-3D and Dolby Atmos decoding with Dirac Live on the Lc10 and full Dirac room correction on the Rs20i.


Theta Digital Casablanca IV/V

12 channel $17,995
24 channel $21,995

The Theta Digital Casablanca processor supports 12 channels (IV) or 16 channels (V). They include both AURO-3D and Dolby Atmos decoding.
I agree OP.

I have a 34 channel system, 18 channels completed thus far, and I'm struggling to find good solutions that don't cost $40k!!!

This was the best I could come up with, and that is still gonna cost me $5-7k: What processor should I get for my system? (8.20.6 Atmos/DTS:X)

It would be great to have something like this. But baked-in, and without us having to implement the complexity of it!
Basically a lower-priced Trinnov

With DB25 connectors there is absolutely NO technical reason why it can't be done in a 3-4 RU package for well-under $10k.

Alas no such thing exists! So I cry myself to sleep every night wanting and waiting.
Is what it is!

That said... if the Trinnov was $3000 I'd probably be at a channel count of 64 by now. But that could just be a problem of me in general...

Good thing I had the foresight of wiring my system for Atmos back in 2012. It took me three 8-hour days to wire my theater.


Went through 1500ft of speaker wire. Every wire is labelled so that I don't forget it's mapping.
My hands literally bled by the end of it all; and my spine was snapped in half. But I got it done!

My brain also turned into jello trying to keep the entire mapping in my head. But that's another topic!
It's like trying to solve a 17 sided Rubik cube.
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post #7 of 34 Old 07-17-2016, 11:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I agree OP.

I have a 34 channel system, 18 channels completed thus far, and I'm struggling to find good solutions that don't cost $40k!!!

This was the best I could come up with, and that is still gonna cost me $5-7k: What processor should I get for my system? (8.20.6 Atmos/DTS:X)
.

Just read your thread.

I'd like to know moree about MOTU

http://motu.com/products/avb/24ai-24ao
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post #8 of 34 Old 07-18-2016, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gene4ht View Post


This is likely where the mass market manufacturers see the "current" market need...but realistically under $2000 street.


i don't really see why though. in time of course. before atmos, i saw 9.2 receivers selling for under a grand, and current 7.2 atmos receivers are priced pretty close to pre-atmos 7.2 receivers, so i don't think atmos itself is a huge price item. i just realize that the cost-effective way to produce these is to start off with some high priced, high end receivers and then replace them with new models. and when the new models come out, the 'old ones' can get some cheaper components and re-badged into cheaper models(since they are no longer paying for R&D on those models), and eventually you have some good options for fully featured receivers at an affordable price. then you buy those models when they are on clearance, and you get your sub-$1000 price.

so i guess sub 2000 MSRP, sub 1000 on clearance is what i'm looking for. current 9.2 atmos receivers should be close, i'd just like to see more 11.2 models released that aren't 'top of the line', heck, you almost can't even find 9.2 receivers that aren't top of the line these days

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post #9 of 34 Old 07-18-2016, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
i don't really see why though. in time of course. before atmos, i saw 9.2 receivers selling for under a grand, and current 7.2 atmos receivers are priced pretty close to pre-atmos 7.2 receivers, so i don't think atmos itself is a huge price item. i just realize that the cost-effective way to produce these is to start off with some high priced, high end receivers and then replace them with new models. and when the new models come out, the 'old ones' can get some cheaper components and re-badged into cheaper models(since they are no longer paying for R&D on those models), and eventually you have some good options for fully featured receivers at an affordable price. then you buy those models when they are on clearance, and you get your sub-$1000 price.

so i guess sub 2000 MSRP, sub 1000 on clearance is what i'm looking for. current 9.2 atmos receivers should be close, i'd just like to see more 11.2 models released that aren't 'top of the line', heck, you almost can't even find 9.2 receivers that aren't top of the line these days
My reference is to "current" pricing for 11.2 channel "single chassis" capability. And you're correct, with time, price points will relax for this technology as it becomes mass market mainstream. Until then, it's doubtful this capability will be available at sub $1000 price points. Soon to be introduced are the Denon X6300W and the Onkyo TX-RZ3100; both of which will likely have MSRP's above $2000. Then there's the currently available Anthem MRX-1120 at over $3000.

Panasonic: PT-AE3000 Front Projector
Elite: 115" Fixed Frame CinemaScope (2.35:1)
Onkyo: TX-NR636 (5.2.2)
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post #10 of 34 Old 07-18-2016, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
There aren't any affordable processors on the market right now that handle more than 11.2 channels. Those that do, are not priced where mere mortals can afford to buy them. When I talk to the manufacturer reps, they say there isn't a sizable market for home theaters larger than 7.1.4 to justify developing a chip set that processes above 11.1 channels for the mass market.
Peter, forgive the clip, all of the information was good but I would like to give me idea of what would work well for me and possibly others...

I would like to see a single chassis sound processor, keep it simple, a multi format decoder (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X), possibly room correction but nothing else, no amplification, no video signal correction (just source switching).

This was I could buy the type and size and number of amplifiers I want/need, hook the outputs of the designated channels to amplifiers and control the master volume from the decoder.

Al
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post #11 of 34 Old 07-18-2016, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gene4ht View Post
My reference is to "current" pricing for 11.2 channel "single chassis" capability. And you're correct, with time, price points will relax for this technology as it becomes mass market mainstream. Until then, it's doubtful this capability will be available at sub $1000 price points. Soon to be introduced are the Denon X6300W and the Onkyo TX-RZ3100; both of which will likely have MSRP's above $2000. Then there's the currently available Anthem MRX-1120 at over $3000.
i guess i'm just frustrated because just before atmos was announced, i had FINALLY started seeing 'high feature' receivers hit a price i could afford. pioneer always releases it's 'elite' models in non-elite form for places like bestbuy, and you could find a 9.2 receiver for under a grand on clearance. then atmos came along, and 9.2 goes from being overkill(i was going to run full 7.2 in the theater, and have stereo in the adjoining bathroom), to not quite enough, haha.

i don't need a lot of power, or a super high quality receiver. i'm absolutely content with the sound quality of my pioneer 1130 right now. it's selling for under 500. all i need is to up the processing to 7.2.4 and add more amps and for them to no more than double the price. realistically, i'm waiting for the chance to buy last year's model of the 'stripped down' version of the previous year's high end 11ch atmos receiver... on clearance. so by my count, that's at least 3yrs into the tech, so about 2 years left to go, at least.

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post #12 of 34 Old 07-18-2016, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
Just read your thread.
I'd like to know moree about MOTU
http://motu.com/products/avb/24ai-24ao
The only real reason I need it is because I have many multi-way non-passive speakers (each driver in each speaker needs a discrete digital XO and amplifier channel), instead of a traditional analog XO board baked into the speaker.
The speaker's power-efficiency and SQ really increases greatly when the amp doesn't have to push through a bunch of resistors/inductors and caps before getting to the voicecoil. (I went from 1000watts to 10watts, that's a huge power-efficiency increase; and the SQ jumped like 5% which IMO is a big deal at this level.)

I also have a lot of subwoofers, 5 on the left, 5 on the right and 10 LFE subs. (i.e. Tri-channel bass.) With the Motu I can redirect any input to any output. So I could feed each subwoofer with just LFE or LR+LFE or just LR or any other channels. I could also redirect the LFE to the bass drivers in my mains and center without needing to engage any specific bass-management feature. All mixing and routing strategies are available all-the-time in real-time.
Obviously you can see how amazingly powerful that is. (It's also good for ABXing a large number of mono or stereo speakers at a GTG.)

I got tired of having to do live with mono-bass during 2-ch music. Now I get stereo-bass during music and tri-channel during movies, and it switches automatically. I don't have to use Y-Spliters or fart around changing settings and buttons in the menus.

It's really designed for pro-audio. Where you have a bunch of sources from a DAW that gets sent to a live concert system.
and where you have like 10 or more live mics recording the drums, guitars, and vocals etc etc and boosting them to the amplifiers.

You can mix and route like 64x64 channels with a click of the mouse; and apply basic EQ. It doesn't do the heavy bass management or Auto-EQ stuff found in HT-AV equipment, but with the PC version of Dirac I think you'd be there.
I chose REW and JRiver because it supports everything I desire, which is just manual EQ/XO's, that's all I need...

I wouldn't be surprised if hollywood uses them to feed an: analog to Dolby-Atmos encoder from a DAW.

The only downside, is that since there are no Atmos decoders for the PC (unless you pay Dolby $100k), one must still buy an AV processor and take an extra AD/DA hit. Where as the Trinnov is all-in-one and avoids that hit (but it is $40k!!!)

At 44.1 and Thunderbolt the Motu supports like 128in x 128out channels (if you buy enough boxes). At 192 it is limited to 16 in and 24 out if I understand correctly. At 96 you get 24x24 I think. Enough for a full atmos system.

If you found a Dolby Surround VST plugin for the PC, you could have as many phantom upmix channels as you desire, until high-channel-count Atmos boxes come out to replace it, then you just plug it into the Motu inputs and your done.
That way you don't need to buy 2 or 3 AVR's (unless you want to use them as external amps.)

A lot of musicians use Motu's: Gaga, Miley, Metallica, etc etc etc.

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post #13 of 34 Old 07-18-2016, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
i guess i'm just frustrated because just before atmos was announced, i had FINALLY started seeing 'high feature' receivers hit a price i could afford. pioneer always releases it's 'elite' models in non-elite form for places like bestbuy, and you could find a 9.2 receiver for under a grand on clearance. then atmos came along, and 9.2 goes from being overkill(i was going to run full 7.2 in the theater, and have stereo in the adjoining bathroom), to not quite enough, haha.

i don't need a lot of power, or a super high quality receiver. i'm absolutely content with the sound quality of my pioneer 1130 right now. it's selling for under 500. all i need is to up the processing to 7.2.4 and add more amps and for them to no more than double the price. realistically, i'm waiting for the chance to buy last year's model of the 'stripped down' version of the previous year's high end 11ch atmos receiver... on clearance. so by my count, that's at least 3yrs into the tech, so about 2 years left to go, at least.
Completely understand your dilemma. Unfortunately, the marketplace is what it is. To my knowledge, the least expensive and only currently available AVR with 11 channel (7.2.4) single chassis capability with Atmos is the 2014 Onkyo TX-NR3030 at around $1500-$1600 street ($2299 MSRP). By owner accounts, it's a very capable AVR but lacks some of the newer features 2015 & 2016 models offer...i.e. DTS:X, HDMI 2.0a, HDCP 2.2, etc. Your projection of 2-3 years before price points commonly fall below $1000 for these features is probably realistic. Good luck with your endeavor!

Panasonic: PT-AE3000 Front Projector
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Onkyo: TX-NR636 (5.2.2)
Klipsch: RF-7 II's, RC-64 II, RS-62 II, RB-61 II MICCA: M-8C (Atmos) x 6
SVS: TBD x 2
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post #14 of 34 Old 07-18-2016, 01:32 PM
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I think the Arcam AVR-550/850 is the one to beat right now. Arcam has always gotten rave reviews on their DACs and now they are the first to market 7.1.4 with Dirac Live onboard. A second amp is required but I am strongly considering selling my Marantz 8802 and minidsp units and going with Arcam. I just dont see a 9.1.6 unit being widely adopted in the home market. For those that want that many channels, it is going to cost $$$ to play.
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post #15 of 34 Old 07-19-2016, 07:38 AM
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I would like to see a capability that multiple of the same receivers could be stacked to get the 9.2.6 done. Tell each channel what it should do and have some kind of datalink cable between the receivers for timing, volume and sound format control so both receivers follow where one is master and the other is slave. This has already been done using two Denon 5200's in the past but it is not by design.
This way a receiver could still be sold to the masses and freaks like us could stack two receivers to get 2x11 = 22 channels by just spending twice the money.
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post #16 of 34 Old 07-19-2016, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Bumper View Post
I would like to see a capability that multiple of the same receivers could be stacked to get the 9.2.6 done. Tell each channel what it should do and have some kind of datalink cable between the receivers for timing, volume and sound format control so both receivers follow where one is master and the other is slave. This has already been done using two Denon 5200's in the past but it is not by design.
This way a receiver could still be sold to the masses and freaks like us could stack two receivers to get 2x11 = 22 channels by just spending twice the money.
Absolutely no reason why people can't do that right now - in fact I think there is a member of this forum doing exactly that already.

EDIT: Actually, here you go:

My 11.4.12 "Franken-Atmos" living room.
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post #17 of 34 Old 07-19-2016, 08:50 AM
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Like I said, it has been done before but not by design. If you read all about it you know that the current atmos handling doesn't perform like it should. It doesn't calculate for six top channels, only four. Four channels on one receiver and two on the other but together not calculated for six. Also volume control is not daisy chained however that can be overcome by using rs232 control. Again not by design. So my statement still stands that new receivers could have this feature by design where a mode is chosen that both receivers know they have to perform together instead of fooling the system
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Originally Posted by Bumper View Post
I would like to see a capability that multiple of the same receivers could be stacked to get the 9.2.6 done. Tell each channel what it should do and have some kind of datalink cable between the receivers for timing, volume and sound format control so both receivers follow where one is master and the other is slave. This has already been done using two Denon 5200's in the past but it is not by design.
This way a receiver could still be sold to the masses and freaks like us could stack two receivers to get 2x11 = 22 channels by just spending twice the money.
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Absolutely no reason why people can't do that right now - in fact I think there is a member of this forum doing exactly that already.

EDIT: Actually, here you go:

My 11.4.12 "Franken-Atmos" living room.
Hey this might work... I am asking questions over there now!

Al
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post #19 of 34 Old 07-19-2016, 08:58 AM
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Like I said, it has been done before but not by design. If you read all about it you know that the current atmos handling doesn't perform like it should. It doesn't calculate for six top channels, only four. Four channels on one receiver and two on the other but together not calculated for six. Also volume control is not daisy chained however that can be overcome by using rs232 control. Again not by design. So my statement still stands that new receivers could have this feature by design where a mode is chosen that both receivers know they have to perform together instead of fooling the system
This would be great, somehow I can't see it coming soon, I think only because of the small market for it, not because it could not be implemented.

I posted earlier that a pre with signal processing only no amplifiers would be a great route for Onkyo or Denon to take, they has to be some savings from eliminating 11 channels of amplification, radio tuners and the like?

Way back in the day I had a Yamaha DSP-1 processor for Dolby Digital, then upgraded to a Panasonic SH500C also a stand alone but with both DD and DTS...

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post #20 of 34 Old 07-19-2016, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I posted earlier that a pre with signal processing only no amplifiers would be a great route for Onkyo or Denon to take, they has to be some savings from eliminating 11 channels of amplification, radio tuners and the like?
D+M Group (formerly D&M Holdings) was formed in 2002 from the merger of Marrantz and Denon. In 2008 it was acquired by K. K. BCJ-2, a Tokyo corporation owned by investment funds advised by Bain Capital of Mitt Romney fame. At that time Denon had fantastic AVR's in the CI series and a very respectable audiophile processor in the AVP-A1HDCI preamp. Since then D+M has put more development into their Marrantz line by bringing technology from Marrantz's high end reference line and incorporating it into their mid-market preamplifiers while the Denon line has languished a bit.

Denon AVP-A1HDCI

http://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp...esign-overview






Marrantz now has what you're looking for and it's on the market factory refurbished with a limited warranty for just above the $1k price point:


Marrantz AV7702 mkII 11.2-Ch Networking A/V Preamp/Processor
Factory Refurbished - $1,399

HDAM pre amps all channels
Audiophile grade ELNA capacitors
Extended copper shielding

32-Bit SHARC DSP
192kHz /32 bit DAC
Audyssey MultEQ XT32

Dolby Atmos 7.1.4 channels
Dolby TrueHD lossless audio
DTS:X
DTS-HD Master Audio
DTS Neural:X
Auro-3D 10.1 channels (optional upgrade)

11.2 XLR outputs
13.2 RCA outputs (11.2-channel processing)
8 HDMI inputs
3 HDMI outputs
MM phono input

HDMI 2.0a
HDCP 2.2
4K Ultra HD 60Hz
4:4:4 Pure Color
High Dynamic Range (HDR)
21:9 video
3D video
BT.2020 pass-through

ISF Certified
ISF calibration controls
ISF Day and ISF Night video modes

Spotify Connect
Pandora
SiriusXM
AirPlay
Wi-Fi
Bluetooth
DLNA
iOS/Android apps


http://us.marantz.com/us/products/pa...tId=AV7702mkII

http://www.accessories4less.com/make...FZNafgodbR0GBA

Reviews

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...jzi6ReCl3ml.97

http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/r...cessor-review/

http://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp...02mkii-preview

http://hometheaterreview.com/marantz...kii-av-preamp/





I used to own an Onkyo PR-SC5508 processor that had several problems. Now I work with an audio repair service and custom integrator that repairs Onkyo, Integra, Denon, Marrantz, Yamaha and Pioneer along with a lot of vintage high end gear. We see way less Marrantz and Denon units in the shop for repair than Onkyo. I can also tell you from looking at numerous Onkyo and Marrantz units on the repair bench, that Marrantz AVR's are genuinely better built.

I currently own a Marrantz AV8801 that I'm planning to sell to upgrade to the Marrantz AV8802a (or whatever update they announce in two months at CEDIA in Dallas).
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post #21 of 34 Old 07-19-2016, 11:16 PM
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D+M Group (formerly D&M Holdings) was formed in 2002 from the merger of Marrantz and Denon.
:twitch:

Only one "r" in Marantz Pete! #spelling_police


Edit: Very interesting topic/info.

Last edited by GIEGAR; 07-19-2016 at 11:20 PM.
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Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
D+M Group (formerly D&M Holdings) was formed in 2002 from the merger of Marrantz and Denon. In 2008 it was acquired by K. K. BCJ-2, a Tokyo corporation owned by investment funds advised by Bain Capital of Mitt Romney fame. At that time Denon had fantastic AVR's in the CI series and a very respectable audiophile processor in the AVP-A1HDCI preamp. Since then D+M has put more development into their Marrantz line by bringing technology from Marrantz's high end reference line and incorporating it into their mid-market preamplifiers while the Denon line has languished a bit.

Denon AVP-A1HDCI

http://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp...esign-overview






Marrantz now has what you're looking for and it's on the market factory refurbished with a limited warranty for just above the $1k price point:


Marrantz AV7702 mkII 11.2-Ch Networking A/V Preamp/Processor
Factory Refurbished - $1,399

HDAM pre amps all channels
Audiophile grade ELNA capacitors
Extended copper shielding

32-Bit SHARC DSP
192kHz /32 bit DAC
Audyssey MultEQ XT32

Dolby Atmos 7.1.4 channels
Dolby TrueHD lossless audio
DTS:X
DTS-HD Master Audio
DTS Neural:X
Auro-3D 10.1 channels (optional upgrade)

11.2 XLR outputs
13.2 RCA outputs (11.2-channel processing)
8 HDMI inputs
3 HDMI outputs
MM phono input

HDMI 2.0a
HDCP 2.2
4K Ultra HD 60Hz
4:4:4 Pure Color
High Dynamic Range (HDR)
21:9 video
3D video
BT.2020 pass-through

ISF Certified
ISF calibration controls
ISF Day and ISF Night video modes

Spotify Connect
Pandora
SiriusXM
AirPlay
Wi-Fi
Bluetooth
DLNA
iOS/Android apps


http://us.marantz.com/us/products/pa...tId=AV7702mkII

http://www.accessories4less.com/make...FZNafgodbR0GBA

Reviews

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...jzi6ReCl3ml.97

http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/r...cessor-review/

http://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp...02mkii-preview

http://hometheaterreview.com/marantz...kii-av-preamp/





I used to own an Onkyo PR-SC5508 processor that had several problems. Now I work with an audio repair service and custom integrator that repairs Onkyo, Integra, Denon, Marrantz, Yamaha and Pioneer along with a lot of vintage high end gear. We see way less Marrantz and Denon units in the shop for repair than Onkyo. I can also tell you from looking at numerous Onkyo and Marrantz units on the repair bench, that Marrantz AVR's are genuinely better built.

I currently own a Marrantz AV8801 that I'm planning to sell to upgrade to the Marrantz AV8802a (or whatever update they announce in two months at CEDIA in Dallas).
Thanks for the detailed post!

Certainly a cost effective option for processing, not sure that I need XLR connections of any sort but the AV7702 mkII at $1400 is very attractive, but landed in Canada still over $2000.

Curious when manufacturers are going to drop composite and component video, can't be much of a demand to have it in high end gear?

They always seem to model the pre after the AVR, 11 channels = 11 channels minus the amplifiers, in the end if it were available I would rather buy a pre that has the provisions for more then 11 channels of processing.

Al
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Marrantz now has what you're looking for and it's on the market factory refurbished with a limited warranty for just above the $1k price point:

How is this what we are looking for? We are looking for 9.x.6 which is 15 channels + subs hence lots more than Marantzes 11 channels..
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Curious when manufacturers are going to drop composite and component video, can't be much of a demand to have it in high end gear?
Those of us that have been around a long time tend to still have some legacy gear in our systems. The grandparents or casual audio user, that's still using their old VCR. The AV enthusiast that still has his laserdisc collection accumulated in the 1990's. Many people haven't ripped all their DVD's to hard drive and are using one of the older DVD changers with Component output. A lot of old gear migrates to the kid's room or the guest room where an old CRT may still reside.

And then there are those who can't afford to buy the latest gear or who are very frugal. My brother is a mortgage banker living in a nice house by the beach, but he is very tight with money. It was only this last year he finally replaced his CRT and VHS in the living room with a SMALL flatscreen and $39 DVD player.

In my own system I have a VHS to DVD recorder that I use to convert old family tapes to DVD for archive, and to make video CD's of film clips and other content to give to my older family that are not computer savvy. I also own a JVC HM-DR1000 DVHS digital VHS recorder. It has a Dish satellite receiver and 5 heads (3-video, 2-audio) for recording digital satellite onto DVHS tapes. JVC and Dish parted ways shortly after it's production when Dish introduced their first hard drive based DVR's and stopped supporting the JVC unit. As a result, the HM-DR1000 saw almost no use archiving Dish content and the tape heads are in factory new condition. I use it for the occasional DVHS tape and as a transport to make pristine copies of the occasional VHS movie I pick up that never made it onto dvd.

Lastly, I find that many homes were wired for distributed audio and video using composite and component connections before stable long distance HDMI solutions became available. For a long time HDMI over baluns and cat5e was notoriously unreliable and integrators installed composite and component 50'-75' meter wire runs instead or as backup. Also, until a few years ago, most AVR's had their zone 2 and zone 3 video connections in composite and component. It's only recently that receivers with 3 HDMI outputs (TV, Projector, Zone 2) have appeared on the market. Unless these homeowners want to rip that wiring out and reinstall all new balun/HDMI based distributed video, they are still going to need composite and component video connections.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Sherwood View Post
They always seem to model the pre after the AVR, 11 channels = 11 channels minus the amplifiers, in the end if it were available I would rather buy a pre that has the provisions for more then 11 channels of processing.
When my 9.2 channel Onkyo PR-SC5508 preamp/processor broke years ago, the repair shop I now work for opened it up and showed me the inside. I was amazed that it was mostly open space. They happened to have the 9.2 channel Onkyo TX-NR5508 receiver on hand for repair of the same problem and showed me the inside for comparison. They were identical in all respects except for the removal of all the amplifier components. Both units had an enormous case large enough to house the preamp and nine channels of amplification. Onkyo just skipped installing the amp sections on the assembly line for the TX-NR5508 and swapped the faceplate for a PR-SC-5508 preamp.

Most mass market manufacturers use the same preamp/processor section in their AV receivers as they do in their AV separate processors to minimize expense, take advantage of economies of scale in production, and maximize profits. One of the few exceptions I have seen is from Marrantz that uses their HDAM modules, better components, different layout and extensive copper shielding in their separate processors than they have in their regular AV receivers.


Marantz SR-7010 Receiver




Marantz AV 8802 Processor




That being said, almost everyone is using the same DSP chipset to process the various Dolby and DTS formats. This chipset currently processes a maximum of 11.1 channels. I have read in the industry news about new chip sets that can handle up to 15.1 channels, but none of these have made it to market yet in consumer AVR's.

I have hope that since the Marrantz AV8802a already has 15.2 XLR outputs in the rear panel layout, that Marrantz might announce an 15.1 updated model at CEDIA this year or CES next year. They would have to stuff two more HDAM modules into the chassis and probably a fifth DSP chip on the motherboard, but it's not impossible.

Gotta have hope...
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How is this what we are looking for? We are looking for 9.x.6 which is 15 channels + subs hence lots more than Marantzes 11 channels..
I was only referring to earlier requests for a processor only - no amplification included at around $1,000 price range on clearance.


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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
eventually you have some good options for fully featured receivers at an affordable price. then you buy those models when they are on clearance, and you get your sub-$1000 price.

so i guess sub 2000 MSRP, sub 1000 on clearance is what i'm looking for. current 9.2 atmos receivers should be close, i'd just like to see more 11.2 models released that aren't 'top of the line', heck, you almost can't even find 9.2 receivers that aren't top of the line these days

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Sherwood View Post
I would like to see a single chassis sound processor, keep it simple, a multi format decoder (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X), possibly room correction but nothing else, no amplification, no video signal correction (just source switching).

This was I could buy the type and size and number of amplifiers I want/need, hook the outputs of the designated channels to amplifiers and control the master volume from the decoder.
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There is no need for custom chips and expensive processors. A desktop pc has enough horsepower to handle all this and more. The problem is the market for these things is 'audiophiles' with big pockets and custom installers who can then charge big bucks, and no one wants a cheap solution.
Frankly, there are a lot of folks that want a cheap solution. Me included.
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Peter, good posts! Yep I have been around awhile, used to fix up old tube radios, built crystal radios for the fun of it, and quite a number of speakers too. Yes I still have my laser disc collection, even modded the player output to provide DD in RF for my Yamaha decoder, still have the VHS machine and umpteen pieces of gear...

But in order to move ahead we need to leave a lot of this behind, to continue to support old formats and connection schemes drags us back and adds unnecessary circuits that serve no purpose in high-end or elite gear. If they want, they can retain it for the mid to low consumer gear, so grandma or the kids can hook up the Wii or watch an old tape.

By now I would have thought some one out there would have front ended DSP chips and make the channels assignable so two or more could be driven and provide all of the channels we want... Like you said: "Gotta have hope... "

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Peter, good posts! Yep I have been around awhile, used to fix up old tube radios, built crystal radios for the fun of it, and quite a number of speakers too. Yes I still have my laser disc collection, even modded the player output to provide DD in RF for my Yamaha decoder, still have the VHS machine and umpteen pieces of gear...

But in order to move ahead we need to leave a lot of this behind, to continue to support old formats and connection schemes drags us back and adds unnecessary circuits that serve no purpose in high-end or elite gear. If they want, they can retain it for the mid to low consumer gear, so grandma or the kids can hook up the Wii or watch an old tape.

By now I would have thought some one out there would have front ended DSP chips and make the channels assignable so two or more could be driven and provide all of the channels we want... Like you said: "Gotta have hope... "
Truth be told, I belong in the era with you guys. I started with Heathkit, Eico, and Allied Radio. I too still have quite a bit of legacy gear. My family all too often accuses me of a hoarder's mentality but I have to side with Al on this one. At some point it's time to move on, remove some excess baggage, and step briskly forward. I've resolved that fact for myself, at least, and that there are places called museums for legacy stuff. Just my opinion guys!
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Panasonic: PT-AE3000 Front Projector
Elite: 115" Fixed Frame CinemaScope (2.35:1)
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Last edited by gene4ht; Yesterday at 03:17 PM. Reason: typo
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Truth be told, I belong in the era with you guys. I started with Heathkit, Eico, and Allied Radio. I too still have quite a bit of legacy gear. My family all too often accuses me of a hoarder's mentality but I have to side with Al on this one. At some point it's time to move on, remove some excess baggage, and step briskly forward. I've resolved that fact for myself, at least, and that there are places called museums for legacy stuff. Just my opinion guys!

You're right that it's time to clean house. I have a garage full of old gear than I need to donate and make room.

That being said...I can still remember sitting in my room back in the late 1970's with my first real high end system and spending hours just listening to everything from jazz to Pink Floyd and even Classical, lost in vinyl nirvana. I've never really re-captured that magical feeling about the sound of my first system. It truly was a stairway to heaven...




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I've been reading this thread with interest.

I am waiting for an AVR or processor capable of 15.1 before I upgrade my current 11.1 setup. Of course there is the Trinnov, but no thank you.

The idea of linking two identical AVR together with some kind of special connection, getting the two to work together as one, is very pleasing to the mind...I would certainly buy two AVRs right away it this option became available. I wonder if it would cost a lot for a manufacturer to add that option? it might only be a matter of firmware and proper programming? from a hardware point of view, I don't believe much changes would be needed?
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