Emotiva RMC-1 speculation thread - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 317 Old 08-29-2017, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Depends on the context. The X.x convention was originally intended to describe the number of discrete channels in the source material. But that nomenclature pretty quickly became corrupted into a shorthand for describing speaker layouts. So if you said you were running a 7.4 system, folks understood that you had 7 speakers and 4 subs, not that all your source material had 7 full range channels and 4 LFE channels.
Exactly. That's why I was asking who all had intentions of getting the RMC-1 (assuming it pulls off all it's saying it can) and getting a minidsp 2x4 to do a full 9.4.6. I know this is exactly what I am looking for myself and if the RMC-1 does indeed fully render 9.1.6, the minidsp is a tiny extra cost to expand out to 9.4.6. I, like others have already stated, also find it interesting that Emotiva is "only" going to demo a 7.4.4 system when Dan said it will be able to fully render 9.1.6 out of the box, IIRC. Seems to me that is what you would want to demo just do you can "neener, neener" your competitors. They must have a reason for doing so.

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post #242 of 317 Old 08-29-2017, 12:40 PM
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Is anyone here going to EMOFEST?
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post #243 of 317 Old 08-29-2017, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Another thing is that even if the RMC-1 can EQ 4 subs, it doesn't necessarily mean that it will be as flexible as a MiniDSP w/Dirac, i.e. be able to set relative delays.
And being able to set individual time delays is at least just as important as EQ'ing is it not? That brings up another question I have. If you do get a minidsp to setup 4 subs from a single output from the RMC-1, would you do all your eq and time delays with the minidsp first before using the Dirac in the RMC-1? My thinking is that by doing the minidsp first, you get all the relative delays set for 4 individual subs first and then you do the Dirac setup with the RMC-1 that way it can set delays accordingly by treating all 4 subs as 1 and then setting the rest of the speakers relative to the sub. Do you think that would work right or would the RMC-1 have issues with that.
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post #244 of 317 Old 08-29-2017, 12:48 PM
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Is anyone here going to EMOFEST?
I only see 11 channels standing on one base there.
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post #245 of 317 Old 08-29-2017, 12:55 PM
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^^^ The subs are buried...
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post #246 of 317 Old 08-29-2017, 12:57 PM
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And being able to set individual time delays is at least just as important as EQ'ing is it not?
Maybe even more important if your subs are not equidistant from the MLP. Having 4 subs and not needing much if any EQ is ideal.
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That brings up another question I have. If you do get a minidsp to setup 4 subs from a single output from the RMC-1, would you do all your eq and time delays with the minidsp first before using the Dirac in the RMC-1? My thinking is that by doing the minidsp first, you get all the relative delays set for 4 individual subs first and then you do the Dirac setup with the RMC-1 that way it can set delays accordingly by treating all 4 subs as 1 and then setting the rest of the speakers relative to the sub.
You are right on track.

I don't want to curb your enthusiasm, but I would bet odds that the RMC-1 isn't released in 2017.
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post #247 of 317 Old 08-29-2017, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by esappy View Post
If you do get a minidsp to setup 4 subs from a single output from the RMC-1, would you do all your eq and time delays with the minidsp first before using the Dirac in the RMC-1?
Yes, I would do the subwoofer optimization step in the miniDSP. After that, I would treat the whole shebang (subs, their amps, the miniDSP) as my "subwoofer" and plug it into a single channel of Dirac. Since you'll be listening to the interaction of all your subs, Dirac should be equalizing the interaction of all your subs (not each sub individually).
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post #248 of 317 Old 08-29-2017, 01:07 PM
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Maybe even more important if your subs are not equidistant from the MLP. Having 4 subs and not needing much if any EQ is ideal.

You are right on track.

I don't want to curb your enthusiasm, but I would bet odds that the RMC-1 isn't released in 2017.
Oh trust me, I am keeping my hopes in check. I am fully aware of Emotivas history of getting electronics out in a timely manner. At least their speakers have been coming out reasonably well.

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post #249 of 317 Old 08-29-2017, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Yes, I would do the subwoofer optimization step in the miniDSP. After that, I would treat the whole shebang (subs, their amps, the miniDSP) as my "subwoofer" and plug it into a single channel of Dirac. Since you'll be listening to the interaction of all your subs, Dirac should be equalizing the interaction of all your subs (not each sub individually).
Sounds great!Thanks Sanjay.

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post #250 of 317 Old 08-29-2017, 02:49 PM
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Is anyone here going to EMOFEST?
I need to get an Emo lawn so it will cut itself.
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post #251 of 317 Old 08-29-2017, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
AFAIK (first hand info) Stormaudio and Acurus are currently (pre-CEDIA, ISE Feb2017 status) at 7.x.6 ATMOS (13 discrete channels).
For now, Emotiva and S&L seem to be stuck at 7.x.4/9.x.2 ATMOS (11 discrete channels).
By now, I would expect Stormaudio and Acurus to have enabled 9.x.4 ATMOS (7.x.4+wides).
But I am pretty convinced that NOT ONE dsp based processor will be able to do 16 discrete channels at coming CEDIA.

BTW: DataSat is said to present something special, so maybe they will exceed my expectation. Till then I'll stick to my opinion posted half a year ago:

Storm Audio will be announcing a 4-XLR expansion board and other improvements including a 7.2 HDMI board with full support of HDMI 1.4 and 2.0 b. The processor can now accommodate 20 XLR outfits including four subs for 9.4.6. However, like the flagship ISP 3D.32 Reference Edition which can accommodate 32 XLR outputs, they both only process 16 channels from a 7.1 signal. I take that to mean that they are matrixing the additional channels from the input feeds.

Storm Audio CEDIA Press Release - Updates to ISP 3D.16 Elite

https://www.stormaudio.com/media/201...3_10082017.pdf

"At CEDIA Expo StormAudio will be highlighting new feature sets built into its award-winning line of preamp / processors. The new capabilities are full system monitoring via the web, an Audio over IP upgrade, a 7.2 HDMI upgrade and expansion from 16-channels to 20."

"Beginning November, the brand’s 16-channel preamp/processors can be upgraded to 20-channels. Called the 4-XLR, this option takes place via an expansion slot. According to Trélohan this is a huge capability for theaters that require more than 16-channels, for example those with multi-subwoofer configurations. MSRP of the entry-level 16-channel processors with 4-XLR is $12,500 to $13,000, which Trélohan says is a significant advantage as competitor’s similarly-equipped processors are $20,000."


Here is the original data sheet for the ISP 3D.16

Output channels.....16 (32 optional)
Decoding/up mixing channels.....up to 16

http://www.stormaudio.com/media/stor...8_06122016.pdf




Here is the original data sheet for the ISP 3D.32 Elite Reference Edition

Output channels.....32
Decoding/up mixing channels.....up to 16

http://www.stormaudio.com/media/stor...0_06122016.pdf




Indy Audio Labs will be announcing an HDMI upgrade to the Act 4 processor.

Acurus CEDIA press release - ACT 4 13.3 supports 7x1 HDMI 2.0b

https://app.box.com/s/by8kfinb3io24cjdmzi1nntal0r5cox7


Datasat will be announcing a calibration service for their dealers.

Datasat CEDIA press release - Calibration service for dealers

https://avnation.tv/2017/08/datasat-...at-cedia-2017/

"The service enables integrators and technology professionals to deliver a superior listening experience in any environment—whether it has been acoustically engineered and optimized, or not. Even in the best of rooms the listener will have a noticeably improved experience. Professional calibration helps dealers elicit the best sound out of Datasat’s lineup, including the flagship RS20i and the feature-rich, mid-level LS10 processors.?"


However, if you don't have $10-$20k sitting around for a DataSat processor, there is a company called Vicoustic which sells really affordable and great looking acoustic treatments. They have a similar service that's much more affordable.

Vicoustic Home Cinema

https://www.vicoustic.com/category/h-h-products

Acoustics White Paper

https://cdn.starwebserver.se/shops/v...f?_=1502381264

Sound & Vision - Vicoustic Takes the Hocus Pocus Out of Room Treatment

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...room-treatment

"Vicoustic operates via dealer networks throughout the world and offers room- planning services that provide even more value than the acoustic products themselves. Based on your room dimensions, type of construction, and speaker and listener location, the company will do a full room analysis using software that models your room and gives a glimpse of the acoustic issues you will likely face. This is done for a small fee (starting as low as $150 for a typical home theater), and the results are delivered in an informative report. Not looking for this type of analysis? Vicoustic USA offers a free design consultation that addresses the most common acoustic issues (first reflections, bass trapping) and provides a model of the room with recommended treatments, to give you an idea of what you can expect."

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post #252 of 317 Old 08-29-2017, 05:47 PM
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^^^ The subs are buried...
That would be a grave mistake!
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post #253 of 317 Old 08-29-2017, 06:02 PM
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"Beginning November, the brand’s 16-channel preamp/processors can be upgraded to 20-channels. Called the 4-XLR, this option takes place via an expansion slot. According to Trélohan this is a huge capability for theaters that require more than 16-channels, for example those with multi-subwoofer configurations. MSRP of the entry-level 16-channel processors with 4-XLR is $12,500 to $13,000, which Trélohan says is a significant advantage as competitor’s similarly-equipped processors are $20,000."[/I]

I really wish Emotiva offered a 4-XLR expansion board for multiple subs on the RMC-1
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post #254 of 317 Old 08-30-2017, 12:58 AM
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However, like the flagship ISP 3D.32 Reference Edition which can accommodate 32 XLR outputs, they both only process 16 channels from a 7.1 signal. I take that to mean that they are matrixing the additional channels from the input feeds.
It can take an ATMOS bitstream and process that into a current maximum of 14 discrete feeds (7.1.6). These discrete feeds can be matrixed to a maximum of 32 speaker feeds. That is my understanding.

A good idea and understanding lies at the basis of every successful project.

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post #255 of 317 Old 08-30-2017, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Wink

Posted a few days ago by Emotiva's president:

"Hi kids,
You can re-assign the L & R subs to surround duty. Also, the RMC-1 now supports 9.1.6!!
Cheers,
Big Dan"

Yes!
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post #256 of 317 Old 08-30-2017, 04:26 PM
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Posted a few days ago by Emotiva's president:

"Hi kids,
You can re-assign the L & R subs to surround duty. Also, the RMC-1 now supports 9.1.6!!
Cheers,
Big Dan"

Yes!
Already discussed, starting here:
Emotiva RMC-1 speculation thread

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post #257 of 317 Old 08-30-2017, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Already discussed, starting here:
Emotiva RMC-1 speculation thread
Oh, sorry. I was so happy when I read it tonight. Now I have read the last few pages of this thread and have caught up with the news (vaporware, I will believe it when I will see it, etc etc...)
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post #258 of 317 Old 08-31-2017, 08:22 AM
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Slightly OT, but with a 9.1.6 setup, I would be using a miniDSP to matrix 4 subs. Emo tech support advised that I should use the 2v. jumper on the input of the miniDSP with Emo pre-pros. However, I'm having trouble finding out the INPUT sensitivity of the powered Klipsh subs. Evidently, this is a trade secret when I asked Klipsh customer support. It's important because one needs to know the sub amp input sensitivity to determine whether or not one must use the Balanced miniDSP. If the input sensitivity is greater than .9v RMS, one can use the unbalanced miniDSP. If it's less, one should use the balanced miniDSP. Since a lot of us may be considering this miniDSP solution to multiple subs from the RMC-1 so that we can use the full 9.1.6, it would be useful if anyone knowing the input sensitivity of the different sub amps could post it, or give us a link, please? Emotiva clearly lists the input sensitivity of it's XPA-1 to XPA-5 amps as 1.9v, but I'm using integrated sub amps.

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post #259 of 317 Old 08-31-2017, 09:42 AM
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Emo-lovers: I just hooked up an XPA-7 to my old Pioneer receiver, but found out my subwoofer out was dead too. So, I'm suddenly in the market for a new processor. What I really would like is an XMC-2 (from what I hear) for my 7.2.4 setup (in progress). Currently, I guess the Anthem AVM 60 is in the lead because of price and features. But, I would like your thoughts on the Emotiva options (especially if you have A/B'd Emotiva and Anthem pres)

1) get an XMC-1, which will cover my current speaker setup and then just be patient for them to update to Atmos, and settle for using RCA's for the height channels;

2) wait for the XMC-1 plus, or XMC-2, or whatever they call it for full 7.2.4 support with XLR outs;

3) pony up the extra $2k and pickup an RCM-1 when it comes out because it will be available first and has a lot more flexibility for the future--even though it appears to be way more pre than I need right now.
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post #260 of 317 Old 08-31-2017, 02:50 PM
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3) pony up the extra $2k and pickup an RCM-1 when it comes out because it will be available first and has a lot more flexibility for the future--even though it appears to be way more pre than I need right now.
I vote for #3.
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post #261 of 317 Old 08-31-2017, 02:58 PM
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I vote for #3.
While I always appreciate the willingness of others to spend my money (isn't that what forum's are for?), maybe some insight into why the extra $2k isn't a waste of money and would elevate me to HT nirvana for the next decade.
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post #262 of 317 Old 08-31-2017, 03:06 PM
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It can take an ATMOS bitstream and process that into a current maximum of 14 discrete feeds (7.1.6). These discrete feeds can be matrixed to a maximum of 32 speaker feeds. That is my understanding.
Where can I find documentation about what you're saying. Not saying I don't believe you, I just want to understand how Atmos channels are derived and why the limitation has been at x.x.4 if the bitstreem atmos information was there all along.

Why is the current maximum 14 channels? Is the atmos x.x.6 info there in the bitstream but the limitation has been the current DSP chips that can only address 14 channels?

Storm audio is claiming (like Emotiva) 16 channels. Does than mean they can process a maximum of 16 discrete feeds (9.1.6) that can be matrixed to 16-20 channels for the ISP 16.3D Elite?
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Going back to my PMs I received the following info from Rory Buszka, Emotiva Engineering: @Rory@Emotiva

"We have the first home theater processor to use a particular new SHARC DSP product from Analog Devices (the platform uses two)" so this tells me that the hardware is different than what Acurus is utilizing.

My last communication with him was in June when he stated that they were still planning for a late summer release but he seemed very confident that we could count on the RMC-1 being available during the fall season of 2017.

An official press release with full details is coming. I expect it the week of CEDIA. I'm sure @imagic will be all over it!

I would love to do a write-up of D+M Audyssey XT-32 mobile app vs Lyngdorf RoomPerfect vs Emotiva Dirac before the end of the year. I'm guessing there would be a lot of interest as these were not covered by the Kansas City REQ Round-Up.
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post #264 of 317 Old 08-31-2017, 05:03 PM
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Going back to my PMs I received the following info from Rory Buszka, Emotiva Engineering: @Rory@Emotiva

"We have the first home theater processor to use a particular new SHARC DSP product from Analog Devices (the platform uses two)" so this tells me that the hardware is different than what Acurus is utilizing.

My last communication with him was in June when he stated that they were still planning for a late summer release but he seemed very confident that we could count on the RMC-1 being available during the fall season of 2017.

An official press release with full details is coming. I expect it the week of CEDIA. I'm sure @imagic will be all over it!

I would love to do a write-up of D+M Audyssey XT-32 mobile app vs Lyngdorf RoomPerfect vs Emotiva Dirac before the end of the year. I'm guessing there would be a lot of interest as these were not covered by the Kansas City REQ Round-Up.
This guy is definitely interested!
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This guy is definitely interested!


I'm waiting 40% discount card in hand as well....
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post #266 of 317 Old 08-31-2017, 06:35 PM
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I'm waiting 40% discount card in hand as well....
I really wish I had one of those!

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post #267 of 317 Old 08-31-2017, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I really wish I had one of those!
I have one too...wow, it would be worth almost 2500 of my canadian dollars!
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post #268 of 317 Old 09-01-2017, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Aurylian View Post

2) wait for the XMC-1 plus, or XMC-2, or whatever they call it for full 7.2.4 support with XLR outs;

3) pony up the extra $2k and pickup an RCM-1 when it comes out because it will be available first and has a lot more flexibility for the future--even though it appears to be way more pre than I need right now.
I don't follow the Lounge threads. Is there going to an updated, souped-up XMC-1, or is it just the RMC-1 ??
I'd be interested in the better processing, but don't need more than 7.1 for my HT.

Tom

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post #269 of 317 Old 09-01-2017, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
Where can I find documentation about what you're saying.
I don't think you can at this moment. The full capabilities of these processors are very much under development. I think the manufacturers do not want to be very specific in their documentation as to what their products can actually deliver at this very moment, because that could draw focus on current limitations as opposed to future possibilities.

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Not saying I don't believe you,
No problem here. That's your prerogative.

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I just want to understand how Atmos channels are derived
That's done by the Atmos playback renderer of the Atmos capable AVR/processor. Objects that are embedded in a 7.1 down-mix contain positional metadata with which this renderer determines how to (re-)distribute the sound once additional (Atmos) speaker positions (e.g. wides, overheads) are added to the configuration. Which positions are available, how many at the same time (total channel count), and in which combinations.... that all depends solely on how the AVR/processor manufacturer has implemented Atmos in it's product(s).

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and why the limitation has been at x.x.4 if the bitstreem atmos information was there all along.
This is because of a DSP chip limitation mostly to 12 channel (11.1) max. So you need either to find a clever way to use multiple DSP chips to go beyond that limit (Stormaudio, Acurus), or use a PC-based approach (Trinnov).

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Why is the current maximum 14 channels? Is the atmos x.x.6 info there in the bitstream but the limitation has been the current DSP chips that can only address 14 channels?
That. But even when it's already technically sorted out how to add more channels on a DSP based processor, Dolby still needs to certify and license these additions, which apparently can take some time as well.

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Storm audio is claiming (like Emotiva) 16 channels. Does than mean they can process a maximum of 16 discrete feeds (9.1.6) that can be matrixed to 16-20 channels for the ISP 16.3D Elite?
That depends whether you want to look at current limitations or future possibilities. At this very moment NOT ONE DSP based processor can do 16 discrete channels in the sense as described above.

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Last edited by maikeldepotter; 09-01-2017 at 08:19 AM.
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post #270 of 317 Old 09-01-2017, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by tngiloy View Post
I don't follow the Lounge threads. Is there going to an updated, souped-up XMC-1, or is it just the RMC-1 ??
I'd be interested in the better processing, but don't need more than 7.1 for my HT.

Tom
To enjoy ATMOS on a 7.1 lay-out you don't need an ATMOS capable processor AT ALL. Even if you would play it on an ATMOS capable processor, the ATMOS renderer doesn't do anything, because all the necessary information is already present in the 7.1 down-mix.

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