Will receivers ever come with 21st century remotes? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 111 Old 02-10-2017, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Will receivers ever come with 21st century remotes?

Seriously. **** IR and the line of sight requirement that goes with it, and piss on universal remotes that rely on it. They can still include IR receivers for people who insist on sticking with old universal remotes. Remotes for receivers are such **** it's unreal. I just saw an old CNET article that pointed out a few other retarded things about them. All this fancy tech, and we still have these cheap IR remotes with so many useless buttons? Will we ever see better ones?
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post #2 of 111 Old 02-10-2017, 09:29 AM
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We already do. They're iPhone apps.


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post #3 of 111 Old 02-10-2017, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by MORT A POTTY View Post
We already do. They're iPhone apps.


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And Android. And built-in Web pages.
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post #4 of 111 Old 02-10-2017, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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**** smartphones. I'm talking about actual remotes.
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post #5 of 111 Old 02-10-2017, 10:46 AM
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What do you need a remote for?

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post #6 of 111 Old 02-10-2017, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper187 View Post
**** smartphones. I'm talking about actual remotes.


There is no need. You said 21st century. Everyone* has a smartphone and apps are way better than a ****ty piece of plastic you have to throw some AAs into and have your kids lose under the sofa. The remote can give you visual feedback and offers way more capabilities than a piece of junk plastic from the manufacturer.


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post #7 of 111 Old 02-10-2017, 10:54 AM
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Well, there's voice control. Is that modern enough?

Getting something like an Echo to actually work with A/V equipment seems to be a challenge, though.

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post #8 of 111 Old 02-10-2017, 11:04 AM
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I prefer that crappy piece of plastic compared to the phone/android apps, so I hope they don't go away, but I'm sure they will at some point.
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post #9 of 111 Old 02-10-2017, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper187 View Post
All this fancy tech, and we still have these cheap IR remotes with so many useless buttons? Will we ever see better ones?
Exactly. I have to transcend through no less than three menu levels to get to my TV's screen-saver function. Why not put that button on the remote?? As far as seeing better remotes: Some companies try, because you read about neat features on remotes in equipment reviews. But I think (for the most part), that there's little incentive for companies to invest R&D in a companion product that does nothing to improve performance. They've already got your money, so why should they care about incidentals? You might say that a company who ignores their customers' wishes will be at the mercy of the free market and struggle to survive. Personally, I think not enough people make the effort to let companies know about their dissatisfaction.

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post #10 of 111 Old 02-10-2017, 11:43 AM
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When you shop for AV gear, exactly how high on your list of wants/needs is the specific functional design of the remote? Not very high, if at all. That's why they don't care. Customers by and large, couldn't care less.


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post #11 of 111 Old 02-10-2017, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MORT A POTTY View Post
When you shop for AV gear, exactly how high on your list of wants/needs is the specific functional design of the remote? Not very high, if at all. That's why they don't care. Customers by and large, couldn't care less.


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I bet 90% of tv's are bought without the buyer seeing/touching the remote that comes with it, same with some other electronics. I don't ask to see them, but I want one.

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post #12 of 111 Old 02-10-2017, 12:28 PM
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I'm somewhat on-board with this notion. Apps are cool, but there is little incentive to support apps for old models down the road. Technology changes quick enough where that app might not work with future phones, etc. +1 on a decent remote.
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post #13 of 111 Old 02-10-2017, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper187 View Post
Seriously. **** IR and the line of sight requirement that goes with it, and piss on universal remotes that rely on it. They can still include IR receivers for people who insist on sticking with old universal remotes. Remotes for receivers are such **** it's unreal. I just saw an old CNET article that pointed out a few other retarded things about them. All this fancy tech, and we still have these cheap IR remotes with so many useless buttons? Will we ever see better ones?
IR remotes are used because they are cheap..
Also to be backward compatible with other legacy audio and video components most are IR only...
There are other ways to control a product such as voice recognition, hand gestures, RF...
But these cost significantly more $ than IR for additional hardware and supporting software.
However..
since the AVR market is always pushing for lower pricing, higher power, more channels it will take more time before these other control technologies and their respective costs decrease as to be feasible..

Just my $0.02..
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post #14 of 111 Old 02-10-2017, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
IR remotes are used because they are cheap..
Also to be backward compatible with other legacy audio and video components most are IR only...
There are other ways to control a product such as voice recognition, hand gestures, RF...
But these cost significantly more $ than IR for additional hardware and supporting software.
However..
since the AVR market is always pushing for lower pricing, higher power, more channels it will take more time before these other control technologies and their respective costs decrease as to be feasible..

Just my $0.02..
Many components like TVs, Bly Ray players, and AVRs are coming equipped standard with bluetooth and wifi it makes no sense why remotes wouldn't start to take advantage of that.
I'll take radio frequency over line of sight IR any day.

Great argument to be made for the smart phones. With most people upgrading every year to 18 months there are alot of them sitting that could be put to good use as multi function system remotes, and unlike the cheap plastic, the smart phones have a dimmable backlight!
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post #15 of 111 Old 02-10-2017, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by 1_sufferin_mind View Post
Exactly. I have to transcend through no less than three menu levels to get to my TV's screen-saver function. Why not put that button on the remote?? As far as seeing better remotes: Some companies try, because you read about neat features on remotes in equipment reviews. But I think (for the most part), that there's little incentive for companies to invest R&D in a companion product that does nothing to improve performance. They've already got your money, so why should they care about incidentals? You might say that a company who ignores their customers' wishes will be at the mercy of the free market and struggle to survive. Personally, I think not enough people make the effort to let companies know about their dissatisfaction.
The OPPO remote for the 103 is one of the best I have seen.
Glad they are one of the companies that try.
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post #16 of 111 Old 02-12-2017, 10:07 AM
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Yamaha's AV Controller app is superb, and is regularly updated.

So you want a 20th century remote? Go get an AVR that offers iOS and Android remote app control. Buy an iPad Mini or iPad Air or Samsung Android tablet, and download the app. (Yamaha's app has a demo mode so you can try before you buy the AVR). Enable HDMI-CEC so that the amp can control/power on other components.

There. You now have a 21 century remote. Problem solved.


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post #17 of 111 Old 02-12-2017, 09:32 PM
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The reason is easy. IR remotes are super cheap, a buck per unit isn't unusual for prices. Most people discard them anyhow - they have their own "21st century remotes" that control the receiver.

You often see this as used receiver almost never come with the remote - it was used once to set it up, then tossed back in the box and inevitably thrown away.

Wifi and Bluetooth are more expensive technologies and not standardized, so you're limited in what you can use to control them. When the ps3 came out, adapters came out to control the ps3 with normal remotes, and these were often quite pricey.
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post #18 of 111 Old 02-13-2017, 01:02 AM
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How can anyone, esp in this forum, recommend crappy smartphone apps? They have their place - that place is when you need to use a streaming app or configure some complicated nonsense.

But if I'm watching a movie and need to change the volume or inputs or see what source is playing etc, which of these is simpler?

1. find my phone. unlock phone. open the app - remember the app is most likely to be obsoleted within a year as the new version of the app won't work with older stuff. wait for app to connect, if needed. look at screen and operate app. wait for the tiny but certain delay

2. pick up that 'ugly' piece of plastic which I can throw around unlike my $$$$ phone without worries, use muscle memory and get the job done in about 1/100th the time

This isn't even a debate. The only reason remotes haven't improved is because they know there's nothing consumers can do about it.

Look at tv remotes - they have improved enormously with many new features.
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post #19 of 111 Old 02-13-2017, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper187 View Post
Seriously. **** IR and the line of sight requirement that goes with it, and piss on universal remotes that rely on it. They can still include IR receivers for people who insist on sticking with old universal remotes. Remotes for receivers are such **** it's unreal. I just saw an old CNET article that pointed out a few other retarded things about them. All this fancy tech, and we still have these cheap IR remotes with so many useless buttons? Will we ever see better ones?
So you want an RF version of this?


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post #20 of 111 Old 02-13-2017, 03:45 AM
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It's been a long time that projectors have RF remote control.
It's a shame that AVR still comes with IR remote. I guess they are just forcing us to buy the complete home automation system.
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post #21 of 111 Old 02-13-2017, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defcon View Post
How can anyone, esp in this forum, recommend crappy smartphone apps? They have their place - that place is when you need to use a streaming app or configure some complicated nonsense.

But if I'm watching a movie and need to change the volume or inputs or see what source is playing etc, which of these is simpler?

1. find my phone. unlock phone. open the app - remember the app is most likely to be obsoleted within a year as the new version of the app won't work with older stuff. wait for app to connect, if needed. look at screen and operate app. wait for the tiny but certain delay

2. pick up that 'ugly' piece of plastic which I can throw around unlike my $$$$ phone without worries, use muscle memory and get the job done in about 1/100th the time

This isn't even a debate. The only reason remotes haven't improved is because they know there's nothing consumers can do about it.

Look at tv remotes - they have improved enormously with many new features.
I couldn't agree more with this statement, but would add that when watching a movie in the dark, want to up or lower the volume a little bit, up pops the bright screen to distract myself and anyone watching with me from the movie.
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post #22 of 111 Old 02-13-2017, 08:36 AM
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Will receivers ever come with 21st century remotes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Worf View Post
... Wifi and Bluetooth are more expensive technologies and not standardized, so you're limited in what you can use to control them.....
(sarcasm) Yeah, I really wish those governing bodies that are overseeing Wi-Fi and Bluetooth would hurry up and approve some standards for them....

Not sure what you mean here. I'd agree if you meant that the inconsistency of apps used over your home wi-fi network makes usefulness and usabililty haphazard. Samsung rather quickly (two years) dropped support of my 2012 TV from their Android app, leading me to vow to avoid buying from them again unless their TV was the best in class. (I had a Samsung BD player once upon a time, and a firmware update literally bricked the player, it wouldn't turn on. God bless Costco for taking it back 19 months after purchase.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Defcon View Post
How can anyone, esp in this forum, recommend crappy smartphone apps? They have their place - that place is when you need to use a streaming app or configure some complicated nonsense.



But if I'm watching a movie and need to change the volume or inputs or see what source is playing etc, which of these is simpler?

...

This isn't even a debate. The only reason remotes haven't improved is because they know there's nothing consumers can do about it.
Cute. Here's another story.

1. I'm watching a movie with guests. I want to change the tone control, Adaptive DRC, and dialog trim of a movie. Using the remote, this can only be done with a huge on-screen menus, meaning I have to pause the movie and block the image with teh on-screen menus, or....

2. I reach for the nearest iPad, iPad Mini, Nexus 7, or my Nexus 5 phone (or the older iPod Touch that I have kicking around somewhere).

3. I run the Yamaha AV Controller app, set all the options with the app, and no one even knows that I changed anything. (BTW, I don't have to "find it," if I've used it within the last 4 hours it doesn't require unlocking, and the app is in my "recent apps" screen so it's easy to relaunch.)


Here's another story for ya:

1. I'm playing some music on my system, let's say I'm using teh DLNA streaming option on my avr.

2. I can pick up the remote, stand up in the dining area, and aim the remote at the AVR, and hope that more than every other button press is responded to. Oh, wait, the remote isn't near me, I have to go find it. Sofa? No. Coffee table? No. Hmm. By the TV? Ah, there it is where my daughter left it.

3. I can touch my iPad Mini, which is open next to me at the dining table, browse the folders on my NAS music share, and start playing one.

4. The phone rings. I need to pause the music. Instead of trying to find the remote somewhere in the living room, I just tap pause, stop, or mute on my iPad Mini sitting next to me and take the call.

One more

1. I'm upstairs, done with showering, getting dressed. I'd like some music playing.

2. I open the app on my phone, turn the AVR on, select Pandora, select the channel I want playing.

3. The music is already playing before I put my phone down.


I'll admit that some manufacturers are better than others. My Panasonic BD player apps still work, and the player is ancient (BDT-215). The Yamaha app is superb, very well designed and programmed, and still supports my RXV-775. I already mentioned the runt of the litter, Samsung.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dmb12679 View Post
I couldn't agree more with this statement, but would add that when watching a movie in the dark, want to up or lower the volume a little bit, up pops the bright screen to distract myself and anyone watching with me from the movie.
Have you actually done this? All my devices have automatic brightness control, so the "bright screen" isn't really so bright. But I'll admit, if I only want to tweak the volume, the IR remote is easy and unobtrusive (if I have on-screen feedback messages turned off, which I do).


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post #23 of 111 Old 02-13-2017, 06:40 PM
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^ChromeJob, no one is saying the smartphone app isn't useful, I explicitly said it is, and I use it for the reasons you mentioned.

None of that means a normal remote doesn't have its uses, which is the point of this thread and the OP. And it doesn't matter if your phone/iPad is unlocked, if app is in recents etc. Its still slower for all the normal use cases. Much slower.
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post #24 of 111 Old 02-13-2017, 07:55 PM
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^ChromeJob, no one is saying the smartphone app isn't useful, I explicitly said it is, and I use it for the reasons you mentioned.



None of that means a normal remote doesn't have its uses, which is the point of this thread and the OP. And it doesn't matter if your phone/iPad is unlocked, if app is in recents etc. Its still slower for all the normal use cases. Much slower.
Don't take it personally. I responded to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defcon View Post
How can anyone, esp in this forum, recommend crappy smartphone apps? They have their place - that place is when you need to use a streaming app or configure some complicated nonsense....
I only wanted to illustrate that there is a place and utility for crappy smartphone apps for simple AND "configure some complicated nonsense" tasks (which admittedly is one of my use cases).

I like not having to use the IR remote that came with the AVR. I do tend to reach for it when I'm on the sofa watching something but otherwise -- for me -- the 21st century remote is not a more advanced IR remote, but something running on a device.

Granted, if AVR makers would adopt the Apple model and provide a simplified BT and IR remote with a touchpad, I'd be interested. But 40% of the time the Apple TV remote doesnt work for me because of, well, the touchpad's difficulty for precision (should be 1" or so bigger IMHO).

Is that the theme of this thread? "Why can't AVR makers provide more elegant and advanced remotes like Apple does?"

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post #25 of 111 Old 02-13-2017, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MORT A POTTY View Post
There is no need. You said 21st century. Everyone* has a smartphone and apps are way better than a ****ty piece of plastic you have to throw some AAs into and have your kids lose under the sofa. The remote can give you visual feedback and offers way more capabilities than a piece of junk plastic from the manufacturer.
Not me. I still use a flip phone. I build computers and run linux, but I absolutely hate those silly phone apps and touch screens.
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post #26 of 111 Old 02-13-2017, 09:10 PM
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I would also be interested in the average age group that welcomes the apps vs the average age of the person who would prefer the old one. I'm almost 40 and would consider myself in the middle of what I would expect the outcome of age is to this question. Not to lump all in to one or the other, but I bet age has a huge factor in this.

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post #27 of 111 Old 02-13-2017, 09:13 PM
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OP says remotes need to come to the 21sr century. OP uses a flip phone...

Neat.


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post #28 of 111 Old 02-13-2017, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I would also be interested in the average age group that welcomes the apps vs the average age of the person who would prefer the old one. I'm almost 40 and would consider myself in the middle of what I would expect the outcome of age is to this question. Not to lump all in to one or the other, but I bet age has a huge factor in this.
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post #29 of 111 Old 02-14-2017, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by dmb12679 View Post
I would also be interested in the average age group that welcomes the apps vs the average age of the person who would prefer the old one. I'm almost 40 and would consider myself in the middle of what I would expect the outcome of age is to this question. Not to lump all in to one or the other, but I bet age has a huge factor in this.
I think you'd be wrong. The idea that, say, millennials want smartphone and tablet apps, and oldsters (I'm 53, not sure what that brands me) want the old-fashioned IR remotes (anyone remember those old "clickers"?) is a silly stereotype.

You're almost 40. Time to abandon age stereotypes.

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Originally Posted by Viper187 View Post
Not me. I still use a flip phone. I build computers and run linux, but I absolutely hate those silly phone apps and touch screens.
Ummm.....

How about you describe for us what you look for in a 21st century remote.


For the sake of discussion, I used a Brookstone LCD touchscreen remote (actually a SIMA SUR-20) for years. It had standardized screens, button zones you customized, and macro capability. But you had to look at where you were tapping. Later Brookstone offered a different manufacturer/model that I thought was a step down.

When I acquired a new AVR and components that supported HDMI-CEC, it became irrelevant, and it now sits in a box. That my Yamaha remote will switch between AVR functions, and in-use component functions, is sophisticated. I actually took the batteries out of my Samsung TV's remote during the SB when I rediscovered that all the menus and functions are available from the Yamaha remote, including tools and settings menus. I think it even has a CC button.


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post #30 of 111 Old 02-14-2017, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post

Ummm.....

How about you describe for us what you look for in a 21st century remote.
A standard remote that does NOT require ****ing line of sight pointing directly at the unit bull****. There's no reason for lame ass apps and touch screens. It's just a remote. The primary purpose is quickly changing inputs and adjusting volume.
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