Has Pioneer fallen out of favor? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 20 Old 03-19-2017, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Has Pioneer fallen out of favor?

It seems to me they are no longer in the conversation with the best avr ?
Were they sold or something?
Has their elite series dropped off ?
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post #2 of 20 Old 03-19-2017, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by MeanMachine View Post
It seems to me they are no longer in the conversation with the best avr ?
Were they sold or something?
Has their elite series dropped off ?
Pioneer sold off their home theater division to Onkyo. Not sure what the quality is like now.

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post #3 of 20 Old 03-19-2017, 02:36 PM
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Once Onkyo bought them it seems to me they've been written off without any real evidence of a drop in quality. Everyone seems to assume Onkyo will push its technology into the Pioneer line without ever once considering it might go in the other direction.

I honestly don't know. However, if Pioneer starts featuring Dirac room correction (as Dirac trumpeted not too long ago), I will become VERY interested in an upgrade.

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post #4 of 20 Old 03-19-2017, 02:48 PM
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Pionkyo... mcacc room correction was not as good as YPAO or Audyssey and Onkyo is known for overheating. Not a great takeover... I had a Pioneer, never had a problem, but hated their app. Yamaha has a single app for everything, but for Pioneer, you had to figure out which app worked with your receiver.

I had an Onkyo that was shutting off all the time. I ended up sending it back because their support was terrible. I would stay away.

I am in the Denon camp now with a 5.4.4 setup running an x4200.

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post #5 of 20 Old 03-19-2017, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by dscottj View Post
Once Onkyo bought them it seems to me they've been written off without any real evidence of a drop in quality. Everyone seems to assume Onkyo will push its technology into the Pioneer line without ever once considering it might go in the other direction.

I honestly don't know. However, if Pioneer starts featuring Dirac room correction (as Dirac trumpeted not too long ago), I will become VERY interested in an upgrade.
Yeah, right now it seems that Denon/Marantz are the go-to here because Audyssey is considered the best of the mass-market room correction systems, but Pioneer's latest units with their new class-D amp designs look very interesting.

Right now I'm planning on going with separates later in the year once the rumored new version of Dirac Live comes out (and seeing if MiniDSP has to release a new product to support it or if the current DDRC-88a will be upgradeable), but if Pioneer were to come out with an AVR that has Dirac baked in I'd be incredibly tempted to go that route to reduce costs and simplify the layout.
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post #6 of 20 Old 03-19-2017, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
Yeah, right now it seems that Denon/Marantz are the go-to here because Audyssey is considered the best of the mass-market room correction systems, but Pioneer's latest units with their new class-D amp designs look very interesting.

Right now I'm planning on going with separates later in the year once the rumored new version of Dirac Live comes out (and seeing if MiniDSP has to release a new product to support it or if the current DDRC-88a will be upgradeable), but if Pioneer were to come out with an AVR that has Dirac baked in I'd be incredibly tempted to go that route to reduce costs and simplify the layout.
Not likely to find Dirac inside a Pioneer AVR..
The Dirac royalty structure is 35% higher than Audyssey, the AVR market pricing is to competitive to afford it..

Just my $0.02...
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post #7 of 20 Old 03-19-2017, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Not likely to find Dirac inside a Pioneer AVR..
The Dirac royalty structure is 35% higher than Audyssey, the AVR market pricing is to competitive to afford it..

Just my $0.02...
When Sherwood put Trinnov into their receiver that was awesome. Outlaw almost had it in a preprocessor and I wold have bought it. It's not too far fetched to think someone will add trinnov or dirac to a processor beyond emotiva. I think it would be worth the added cost.

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post #8 of 20 Old 03-19-2017, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Not likely to find Dirac inside a Pioneer AVR.
Do a search. My info comes from Dirac's own press releases. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but I'm not conjuring it out of thin air.

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post #9 of 20 Old 03-19-2017, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by dscottj View Post
Do a search. My info comes from Dirac's own press releases. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but I'm not conjuring it out of thin air.
While it's open for interpretation I guess, Pioneer has not indicated that Dirac would be used in their AVR's. They do speak to using it in powered speakers, sound bars, etc..

The closest they get to saying an AVR is "Pioneer will also be leveraging Dirac solutions within a variety of consumer products and commercial audio applications." what ever that means.

If M Code's statement, "The Dirac royalty structure is 35% higher than Audyssey..." is correct and I have no reason to doubt it and the miniDSP DDRC-88A is $1000 for hardware/software, I recon that it would add around $200 -$250 to the manufacturing cost of an AVR to add Dirac. It's not likely that you will see Dirac on the mid to low end units unless Dirac lowers their price.

What I'd like to see is someone like Pioneer or D&M come out with a competitive outboard hardware unit with Dirac to compete with miniDSP.

Anyhow, here's the link to the Dirac press release regarding Pioneer and it's almost a year old now:

http://www.dirac.com/news/2016/4/19/...t-with-pioneer
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post #10 of 20 Old 03-19-2017, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post
While it's open for interpretation I guess, Pioneer has not indicated that Dirac would be used in their AVR's. They do speak to using it in powered speakers, sound bars, etc..

The closest they get to saying an AVR is "Pioneer will also be leveraging Dirac solutions within a variety of consumer products and commercial audio applications." what ever that means.

If M Code's statement, "The Dirac royalty structure is 35% higher than Audyssey..." is correct and I have no reason to doubt it and the miniDSP DDRC-88A is $1000 for hardware/software, I recon that it would add around $200 -$250 to the manufacturing cost of an AVR to add Dirac. It's not likely that you will see Dirac on the mid to low end units unless Dirac lowers their price.

What I'd like to see is someone like Pioneer or D&M come out with a competitive outboard hardware unit with Dirac to compete with miniDSP.

Anyhow, here's the link to the Dirac press release regarding Pioneer and it's almost a year old now:

http://www.dirac.com/news/2016/4/19/...t-with-pioneer
Some competing outboard Dirac processors would be nice. The DDRC-88A came out in 2014, which is a lifetime ago when it comes to processors. Based on comments from Dirac's President that a new version is coming out later this year I'm holding off my big electronics upgrade until we know what's coming.

A new MiniDSP unit with the new version of Dirac and XLR connections instead of Phoenix would be very nice. Or, maybe someone else will see potential in that market like you mention.
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post #11 of 20 Old 03-19-2017, 06:53 PM
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Onkyos of the old run hot not the new once. X4200 and x6200 run hot as hell and need to be put in eco mode to tame the temps. Personal experience


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post #12 of 20 Old 03-19-2017, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
Some competing outboard Dirac processors would be nice. The DDRC-88A came out in 2014, which is a lifetime ago when it comes to processors. Based on comments from Dirac's President that a new version is coming out later this year I'm holding off my big electronics upgrade until we know what's coming.
Yes I know, I posted about the interview in the other thread. It's an update to Dirac Live which will most probably run on the miniDSP DDRC-88A as is. Dirac Unison, with advanced features is not exactly new, it's just that it's expected to be available for home audio use this year and I expect it will cost even more with its advanced control features.

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A new MiniDSP unit with the new version of Dirac and XLR connections instead of Phoenix would be very nice. Or, maybe someone else will see potential in that market like you mention.
I have no problem with the phoenix connections as is. If you add XLR's it will require a larger chassis, at least twice the size for 8 channels, which will in turn increase the price of the unit and add no particular improvement except the cosmetic satisfaction of those who think they need an XLR connection. Phoenix Block connectors are used every day in industrial and commercial environments and are very reliable. They simply are not as common for the home audio user. For the very short cable runs typically used with the DDRC-88A, there is no real benefit in using XLR vs. single ended.

I was more interested in seeing competition for the hardware to perhaps leverage a lower price for the end user.
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post #13 of 20 Old 03-19-2017, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post
When Sherwood put Trinnov into their receiver that was awesome. Outlaw almost had it in a preprocessor and I wold have bought it. It's not too far fetched to think someone will add trinnov or dirac to a processor beyond emotiva. I think it would be worth the added cost.

Keep in mind..
When a totally new EQ software such as Dirac is integrated into an AVR and/or surround processor there are other multliple expensive factors to consider such as more powerful DSPs and memory resources..
But the biggest burden is the software code implementation, heavy code programming, debugging and validation. And if the software is only used in the higher end AVRs, then there is not enough unit quantity to amortize the development expense...

Just my $0.02...
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post #14 of 20 Old 03-19-2017, 09:08 PM
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I've been a HUGE Pioneer fan since the 90's. About two years ago I picked up an Elite SC-81. For the price, the features and sound are excellent. I have absolutely zero complaints there. However, the app sucks, I regularly have issues getting numerous error codes as to why it won't work. Often times the IP is showing up on the receiver. There are regular issues with Pandora not working as well. I also am not a fan of MCACC, but now it's not even working properly. There customer service was down for a period of time. It appears back up now though. As mentioned, since the merge with Onkyo, Pioneer has gone downhill.

I'm hoping to purchase a new AVR in the coming months, when the newer models come out and there is price drop. Most likely a Yamaha, possibly Marantz. I was hoping to keep the Pioneer a bit longer.

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post #15 of 20 Old 03-19-2017, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post
When Sherwood put Trinnov into their receiver that was awesome. Outlaw almost had it in a preprocessor and I wold have bought it. It's not too far fetched to think someone will add trinnov or dirac to a processor beyond emotiva. I think it would be worth the added cost.
I read a bit about that Sherwood, though it appears they don't offer Trinnov on any of their current units, I'm wondering if it wasn't as big a selling feature as they were hoping or if Trinnov increased their royalty rates (the only Trinnov units I see now seem to be ridiculously high priced).

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Originally Posted by b curry View Post
Yes I know, I posted about the interview in the other thread. It's an update to Dirac Live which will most probably run on the miniDSP DDRC-88A as is. Dirac Unison, with advanced features is not exactly new, it's just that it's expected to be available for home audio use this year and I expect it will cost even more with its advanced control features.

I have no problem with the phoenix connections as is. If you add XLR's it will require a larger chassis, at least twice the size for 8 channels, which will in turn increase the price of the unit and add no particular improvement except the cosmetic satisfaction of those who think they need an XLR connection. Phoenix Block connectors are used every day in industrial and commercial environments and are very reliable. They simply are not as common for the home audio user. For the very short cable runs typically used with the DDRC-88A, there is no real benefit in using XLR vs. single ended.

I was more interested in seeing competition for the hardware to perhaps leverage a lower price for the end user.
Unison would be nice as well, though I'm curious as to how it would be implemented for home use, whether it would require additional speakers to be added to be active correction speakers, or if it would just blend that active correction signal into the other speakers already in place.

I know phoenix connections are popular in the pro market, I just hate dealing with bare wire. It looks like these exist though:



So I suppose you could get an XLR to Phoenix cable and use the pin blocks to connect to the inputs on the MiniDSP unit and avoid any bare wire issues. If you have a pre/pro with XLR output and an amp with XLR input though it would be nice just to be able to use XLR on the step in-between as well.

I'm with you on more affordable units though. Dirac is very pricey even as standalone software, though I imagine they cut volume discounts for OEMs who want to integrate it into products.
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post #16 of 20 Old 03-20-2017, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
I read a bit about that Sherwood, though it appears they don't offer Trinnov on any of their current units, I'm wondering if it wasn't as big a selling feature as they were hoping or if Trinnov increased their royalty rates (the only Trinnov units I see now seem to be ridiculously high priced).
The units were very buggy. Outlaw Audio had plans to release a processor with it but had manufacturing issues that were out of their control. I don't think we'll see it anytime soon, but it would be very nice if they did.

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post #17 of 20 Old 03-20-2017, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
I read a bit about that Sherwood, though it appears they don't offer Trinnov on any of their current units, I'm wondering if it wasn't as big a selling feature as they were hoping or if Trinnov increased their royalty rates (the only Trinnov units I see now seem to be ridiculously high priced).
The implementation of Trinnov on the Sherwood Newcastle AVR's was kind of a Trinnov lite. It only allowed for room measurement at one position along with some other quirks that made it a little difficult to use. As such, the results were not as good as one would hope for. The other point is that the Sherwood Newcastle units with Trinnov were in the upper price range as AVR's go. Also, Sherwood doesn't have the market presence of Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, etc..



Quote:
Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
I know phoenix connections are popular in the pro market, I just hate dealing with bare wire. It looks like these exist though:

So I suppose you could get an XLR to Phoenix cable and use the pin blocks to connect to the inputs on the MiniDSP unit and avoid any bare wire issues. If you have a pre/pro with XLR output and an amp with XLR input though it would be nice just to be able to use XLR on the step in-between as well.
Phoenix connector blocks are used in many, many places, not just pro audio.

You can buy them pre-made, both male and female connection blocks, for around $4 or make them yourself for less. It's really not a big problem as I see it. You don't need extra pin blocks.

http://hosatech.com/product/phx-106m-bulk/

miniDSP sells them now too.

https://www.minidsp.com/products/acc...nectors-detail
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post #18 of 20 Old 03-20-2017, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post
While it's open for interpretation I guess, Pioneer has not indicated that Dirac would be used in their AVR's. They do speak to using it in powered speakers, sound bars, etc..

The closest they get to saying an AVR is "Pioneer will also be leveraging Dirac solutions within a variety of consumer products and commercial audio applications." what ever that means.

If M Code's statement, "The Dirac royalty structure is 35% higher than Audyssey..." is correct and I have no reason to doubt it and the miniDSP DDRC-88A is $1000 for hardware/software, I recon that it would add around $200 -$250 to the manufacturing cost of an AVR to add Dirac. It's not likely that you will see Dirac on the mid to low end units unless Dirac lowers their price.

What I'd like to see is someone like Pioneer or D&M come out with a competitive outboard hardware unit with Dirac to compete with miniDSP.

Anyhow, here's the link to the Dirac press release regarding Pioneer and it's almost a year old now:

http://www.dirac.com/news/2016/4/19/...t-with-pioneer
Both Arcam and AudioControl provide AV receivers and pre/pros containing a version of Dirac Live. They're quite a bit more expensive, though, and people have complained about some of the details of the implementation.

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post #19 of 20 Old 03-20-2017, 11:55 AM
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Both Arcam and AudioControl provide AV receivers and pre/pros containing a version of Dirac Live. They're quite a bit more expensive, though, and people have complained about some of the details of the implementation.
Yes, I'm aware of that. Arcam and AudioControl seem to be twin sons of different mothers or maybe the same mother. Or, AudioControl seems to be the custom installers version of Arcam, I don't know. And then there is Emotiva and Theta Digital as well.

It seems If you want the best implementation of Dirac, you have two choices. The very expensive Datasat or the more reasonably priced miniDSP.

I would really like to see someone bring to market a 16 channel Dirac outboard unit similar to the miniDSP hardware and price point. It seems like it would be a good fit in terms of vertical integration for a manufacture to offer. Hint, hint Pioneer.

As an alternative, I'm also hoping that miniDSP comes up with a master/slave option to make combining two units a little easier and less expensive or simply offer a 16 channel unit as well.
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post #20 of 20 Old 03-27-2017, 01:41 PM
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I'm new to all of this and have had quite a 8-9 month journey upgrading speakers and subs three times in that span (thanks to this damn forum!). I have several threads on here reflecting that. I have had a Pioneer Elite VSX-90 7.2 AVR for almost a year and it's been great. It was $700 retail and I got it on sale at a Best Buy Magnolia for $399. I haven't owned a Denon or Marantz and not sure how MCAAC Pro compares to Audyssey. The only issue I've had is when Pioneer and Pandora had their issues and I had no Pandora though the AVR for a couple of weeks. My only complaint (well two complaints) really is it has two sub outputs but only one sub distance setting and only one overall crossover setting. You can't set distances for two subs and you can't set different crossovers for speaker groups. Other than that, so far so good!



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