MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon & Marantz AV Receivers & Pre/Pros - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 1386 Old 04-22-2017, 12:16 AM
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Sorry, @beastaudio , could you pls elaborate more on the subject? You mean one have to look specifically to the sub distance/delay and trim it, and to get what? Once you have done it, you can only use the App to change other settings, doing another cal. will bring again old values. Or after applying trim to the sub's distance you use Rew or Dirac?
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post #332 of 1386 Old 04-22-2017, 12:49 AM
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I could be wrong, but I believe he is referring to the sub distance being wrong, causing a dip at the crossover frequency.
You run rew sweep and see a dip at the XO, and you adjust the sub distance and keep re-running REW until the dip is much better(LESS) on the sweep.
Mark Seaton has a thread about it.
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post #333 of 1386 Old 04-22-2017, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
That's the nasty "Audyssey thinks it set the distances right" dip that you have to manually adjust to get the best crossover region available without cancellation. At least that's what my runs have looked like every time I have ever run audyssey in the past 6 years, with half a dozen different speakers and 4 different units all with xt32. Quick adjustment of the subwoofer distance to find best parity and you are back in business...
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Originally Posted by vn800art View Post
Sorry, @beastaudio , could you pls elaborate more on the subject? You mean one have to look specifically to the sub distance/delay and trim it, and to get what? Once you have done it, you can only use the App to change other settings, doing another cal. will bring again old values. Or after applying trim to the sub's distance you use Rew or Dirac?
Thanks
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Originally Posted by muzz View Post
I could be wrong, but I believe he is referring to the sub distance being wrong, causing a dip at the crossover frequency.
You run rew sweep and see a dip at the XO, and you adjust the sub distance and keep re-running REW until the dip is much better(LESS) on the sweep.
Mark Seaton has a thread about it.
Changing the distance setting would impact the phase of the sub. In fact, sub distance is a phase setting when it comes to the sub. I suppose Audyssey could get the phase wrong.

Is that thread on AVS?

It will be interesting to see @imagic 's measurements.
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post #334 of 1386 Old 04-22-2017, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Changing the distance setting would impact the phase of the sub. In fact, sub distance is a phase setting when it comes to the sub. I suppose Audyssey could get the phase wrong.

Is that thread on AVS?

It will be interesting to see @imagic 's measurements.
Exactly, the "Sub Distance Tweak" is a procedure that optimizes the time alignment between the combined sub channel and the mains. It is documented here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9x76z07se4...02013.pdf?dl=0
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post #335 of 1386 Old 04-22-2017, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Changing the distance setting would impact the phase of the sub. In fact, sub distance is a phase setting when it comes to the sub. I suppose Audyssey could get the phase wrong.

Is that thread on AVS?

It will be interesting to see @imagic 's measurements.
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post #336 of 1386 Old 04-22-2017, 11:34 AM
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As I said, Mark did measurements.

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post #337 of 1386 Old 04-22-2017, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Exactly, the "Sub Distance Tweak" is a procedure that optimizes the time alignment between the combined sub channel and the mains. It is documented here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9x76z07se4...02013.pdf?dl=0
That document ist not completely correct in evaluating the basic situation.

Audyssey does correct and adjusts the phase at the "originally" determined minimum crossover frequency derrived from the lower -3db limit measurements of the speakers (corner frequencies) based on its individual measurement data of each speaker and sub. Looking at the patent descriptions published on the internet, there is specific code in every speakers correction code to match the speakers phase in that crossover region to that of the subwoofer(s) right around that crossover frequency in addition to optimizing the phase as a whole by altering the subwoofers delay ("distance").

But after Audyssey has done its calculations at the end of those measurements all measurement data gathered before are gone. If thereafter the user decides to change the crossover frequencies there are no data left to adopt (and correct) the phase of the speakers to the new crossover frequencies the user has chosen. Audyssey is literally "blind" here, because it wouldn't know ahead of time, what the user might and eventually will chose later on. Thus the original phase correction setup is been left in place the way it had been originally calculated, which therfore might not fit the new situation, depending on the differences. Its the users responsibility to adapt the phase between sub and speakers to correct for the new situation if needed. Unfortunately by changing the subs delay ("distance") universally this phase correction might only work for one pair (or just one ?) or just a few speakers depending on the new crossover frequency setup and the corresponding differences, because the code part on the individual speakers side cannot be updated (changed), or the delay settings of those speakers would have to be changed manually (in addition) also, consequentially screwing up the timing of the rest of those speakers spectrum in correlation with all the other speakers.

A dilemma, which cannot be resolved without having access to the original measurement data.
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post #338 of 1386 Old 04-22-2017, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by gurkey View Post
That document ist not completely correct in evaluating the basic situation.

Audyssey does correct and adjusts the phase at the "originally" determined minimum crossover frequency derrived from the lower -3db limit measurements of the speakers (corner frequencies) based on its individual measurement data of each speaker and sub. Looking at the patent descriptions published on the internet, there is specific code in every speakers correction code to match the speakers phase in that crossover region to that of the subwoofer(s) right around that crossover frequency in addition to optimizing the phase as a whole by altering the subwoofers delay ("distance").

But after Audyssey has done its calculations at the end of those measurements all measurement data gathered before are gone. If thereafter the user decides to change the crossover frequencies there are no data left to adopt (and correct) the phase of the speakers to the new crossover frequencies the user has chosen. Audyssey is literally "blind" here, because it wouldn't know ahead of time, what the user might and eventually will chose later on. Thus the original phase correction setup is been left in place the way it had been originally calculated, which therfore might not fit the new situation, depending on the differences. Its the users responsibility to adapt the phase between sub and speakers to correct for the new situation if needed. Unfortunately by changing the subs delay ("distance") universally this phase correction might only work for one pair (or just one ?) or just a few speakers depending on the new crossover frequency setup and the corresponding differences, because the code part on the individual speakers side cannot be updated (changed), or the delay settings of those speakers would have to be changed manually (in addition) also, consequentially screwing up the timing of the rest of those speakers spectrum in correlation with all the other speakers.

A dilemma, which cannot be resolved without having access to the original measurement data.
The document represents the collective thoughts of a number of knowledgeable people familiar with Audyssey and subwoofers. Of course, the phase relationship between subs and mains is complicated. But this does not negate the proven fact that the time alignment can be improved by adjusting the subwoofer distance. And yes, there is not necessarily a single sub distance setting that optimizes the alignment with all mains--there is often a compromise involved. But all this does not mean that experiments in improving the alignment are not worth the efforts. Unless, of course, you have an alternative suggestion?
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post #339 of 1386 Old 04-22-2017, 01:44 PM
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For the people who have reported crashed with Android, were you connected wireless or hard wired?
My AVR is wired. My phone has a strong wireless connection in that room.
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post #340 of 1386 Old 04-22-2017, 02:36 PM
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Spoiler!


This is probably off topic here and I appreciate the link to the doc. If there is a discussion on this online, I do have some questions -- starting with "Why wouldn't Audyssey already bake this in?". I realize that is off topic here and am happy to be pointed to where that discussion has or is taking place.

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post #341 of 1386 Old 04-22-2017, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Spoiler!


This is probably off topic here and I appreciate the link to the doc. If there is a discussion on this online, I do have some questions -- starting with "Why wouldn't Audyssey already bake this in?". I realize that is off topic here and am happy to be pointed to where that discussion has or is taking place.
This has been discussed ad nauseam in the Audyssey thread. You probably would need to go back several years in that massive thread. Essentially what is happening is that Audyssey measures each channel independently. When the measurements have completed, it goes into the routine where filters are calculated and applied for each channel. To get the time alignment between the sub channel and the mains set properly, there would need to be an additional stage during which Audyssey would re-measure the sub channel along with the mains with the filters in place in order to adjust the time alignment. Obviously, it doesn't do that.

The first paragraph of the linked document alludes to this Audyssey shortcoming.
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post #342 of 1386 Old 04-22-2017, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
This has been discussed ad nauseam in the Audyssey thread. You probably would need to go back several years in that massive thread. Essentially what is happening is that Audyssey measures each channel independently. When the measurements have completed, it goes into the routine where filters are calculated and applied for each channel. To get the time alignment between the sub channel and the mains set properly, there would need to be an additional stage during which Audyssey would re-measure the sub channel along with the mains with the filters in place in order to adjust the time alignment. Obviously, it doesn't do that.

The first paragraph of the linked document alludes to this Audyssey shortcoming.
My question is not whether Audyssey does it but why they don't. They are so desperate to find reasons for existing users to upgrade (eg, by cannibalizing much of their pro-installer profits by releasing the features and app being discussed in this thread) that it seems like this concept (even with an extra step) would have been low hanging fruit. Yet they haven't bothered? I'm curious regarding why -- i.e. they don't agree it is useful? They think they are already taking this into account be simply predicting what their corrections have done in the room? It requires too much processing capability in receivers? It has a down side as well as up side?

I'll check out the Audyssey thread and see. Thanks.
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post #343 of 1386 Old 04-23-2017, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
My question is not whether Audyssey does it but why they don't. They are so desperate to find reasons for existing users to upgrade (eg, by cannibalizing much of their pro-installer profits by releasing the features and app being discussed in this thread) that it seems like this concept (even with an extra step) would have been low hanging fruit. Yet they haven't bothered? I'm curious regarding why -- i.e. they don't agree it is useful? They think they are already taking this into account be simply predicting what their corrections have done in the room? It requires too much processing capability in receivers? It has a down side as well as up side?

I'll check out the Audyssey thread and see. Thanks.
I tried to explain this a few posts above yours. Audyssey, after it has finished its measurements, no longer has access to the previously collected measurement data anymore, because they are deleted due to memory constrains during those calculations. But to rematch the phase when changing crossover frequencies it needs access to those data to recalculate. Because Audyssey always starts its measurements at "zero", nullifying all presets, it will not take into account the new crossover data the user has set up. Thus a new measurement will not change the situation.
That's the whole "secret" behind that behavior.
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post #344 of 1386 Old 04-23-2017, 12:31 AM
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Lack of a few megs of RAM. Got it.

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post #345 of 1386 Old 04-23-2017, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The document represents the collective thoughts of a number of knowledgeable people familiar with Audyssey and subwoofers. Of course, the phase relationship between subs and mains is complicated. But this does not negate the proven fact that the time alignment can be improved by adjusting the subwoofer distance. And yes, there is not necessarily a single sub distance setting that optimizes the alignment with all mains--there is often a compromise involved. But all this does not mean that experiments in improving the alignment are not worth the efforts. Unless, of course, you have an alternative suggestion?
I don't understand your critics, because I just tried to explain, why that document has some faults in describing the presumptions about the cause of that mismatch.
I do not deny (read my post) that this might improve the situation, but it might introduce additional problems into the "equation", because only part of the situation will (and can) be optimized this way. This will be getting clearer if one reads the published Audyssey patent documents...
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post #346 of 1386 Old 04-23-2017, 01:38 PM
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Can the app be installed on more then one tablet ?
And must it be downloaded on the intended tablet, or can i use my Windows PC to do this and then transfer to phone or tablet (android) ?


Thx......
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post #347 of 1386 Old 04-23-2017, 02:00 PM
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Can the app be installed on more then one tablet ?
And must it be downloaded on the intended tablet, or can i use my Windows PC to do this and then transfer to phone or tablet (android) ?


Thx......
iirc, $20 license is good for 5 devices and app is downloaded only directly from PS to Android tablet.

https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hom...ulteqeditorapp

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post #348 of 1386 Old 04-23-2017, 03:13 PM
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My AVR is wired. My phone has a strong wireless connection in that room.
Thanks I figured that the problem was most likely the stability of the app when coupled with Android and not wireless versus hard wired.
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post #349 of 1386 Old 04-23-2017, 03:40 PM
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I had the best luck when disabling auto screen timeout, per my earlier comment on this thread. As long as you never switch apps or allow the app to leave focus, it seems to work fairly well.
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post #350 of 1386 Old 04-23-2017, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I had the best luck when disabling auto screen timeout, per my earlier comment on this thread. As long as you never switch apps or allow the app to leave focus, it seems to work fairly well.
That's consistent with my experience
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post #351 of 1386 Old 04-23-2017, 05:13 PM
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I'm really interested integrating Dirac with Audyssey. If it work, then we can get MiniDSP 2x4 HD to correct L/R and sub with Dirac and leave the rest of the channel using Audyssey correction. Not sure when the sound pan from back to front, or left to center and to right, there would be an obvious gap due to speaker tuning mismatch?
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post #352 of 1386 Old 04-23-2017, 05:27 PM
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I'm really interested integrating Dirac with Audyssey. If it work, then we can get MiniDSP 2x4 HD to correct L/R and sub with Dirac and leave the rest of the channel using Audyssey correction. Not sure when the sound pan from back to front, or left to center and to right, there would be an obvious gap due to speaker tuning mismatch?
Just curious, why would you want to do this? If you have a 7.1 configuration, simply use the MiniDSP 88A and forget Audyssey. If you have an Atmos configuration, others have either purchased a second 88A, or left the ceiling speakers without correction. The latter approach seems to work reasonably well, while the former approach costs an additional $1K and is the ideal solution.

I would be concerned about mixing two room correction technologies, but if you manage to do it, I'm sure many of us would enjoy hearing about how successful it is.

Perhaps this discussion belongs in a separate thread--it rally has little to do with the Audyssey app.
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post #353 of 1386 Old 04-23-2017, 05:31 PM
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I finally had a chance to run the MultiEQ application. I made a copy of the file that was produced from the 8 positions. I tried to cut off the room correction at 700 Hz and saw the correction curve was choppy in the higher frequencies so I went back to the 20KHz default. I made another copy of the file and turned off midrange compensation for all speakers. I will have to listen to changes with midrange compensation turned off to hear if I like the change.

What is the main difference I should hear with midrange compensation tuned off?

What differences in sound should I hear between the two frequency roll off curves?

If I have my phone close to my router so it has a strong signal and the AVR is hard wired I had a stable connection. I had one crash when the phone lost connectivity from WiFi when I moved it too far from the wireless router in the other room.

I am definitely a newbie but it is fun to try different things.
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post #354 of 1386 Old 04-23-2017, 05:36 PM
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I finally had a chance to run the MultiEQ application...
For starters, there are charts on the web that depict frequency ranges of different voices and instruments. Here's one explanation.

https://www.teachmeaudio.com/mixing/...audio-spectrum


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post #355 of 1386 Old 04-23-2017, 09:39 PM
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Just curious, why would you want to do this? If you have a 7.1 configuration, simply use the MiniDSP 88A and forget Audyssey. If you have an Atmos configuration, others have either purchased a second 88A, or left the ceiling speakers without correction. The latter approach seems to work reasonably well, while the former approach costs an additional $1K and is the ideal solution.

I would be concerned about mixing two room correction technologies, but if you manage to do it, I'm sure many of us would enjoy hearing about how successful it is.

Perhaps this discussion belongs in a separate thread--it rally has little to do with the Audyssey app.
Cause it would be cheaper for atmos setup than buying 2 units of minidsp 88a. I'm thinking if Dirac is better for music, is it possible to use minidsp for stereo listening while maintain ability to playback full atmos setup using the existing setup? Another possibility is to use one minidsp 88a to tune for 5.2 and the rest of the channel using audyssey. That might be a better solution with lower cost.
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post #356 of 1386 Old 04-24-2017, 07:18 AM
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Combing systems belongs in another thread and is off topic here but
Spoiler!
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post #357 of 1386 Old 04-24-2017, 07:20 AM
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Cause it would be cheaper for atmos setup than buying 2 units of minidsp 88a. I'm thinking if Dirac is better for music, is it possible to use minidsp for stereo listening while maintain ability to playback full atmos setup using the existing setup? Another possibility is to use one minidsp 88a to tune for 5.2 and the rest of the channel using audyssey. That might be a better solution with lower cost.
The only way this might be possible would be to set Audyssey to "Bypass L/R" to avoid applying both Audyssey and Dirac to both channels. I don't think this bypasses the sub channel, so you would end up with Audyssey for the subs, not Dirac. This approach definitely wouldn't work for a 5.1 setup, because you would end up with double-correction on some of the channels. Either way, I doubt the resulting audio would be very good.

IMO, you will get better sound with one 88A, and not bothering with correcting the overheads.

If you want to continue this discussion, please start a new thread.
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post #358 of 1386 Old 04-24-2017, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Cause it would be cheaper for atmos setup than buying 2 units of minidsp 88a. I'm thinking if Dirac is better for music, is it possible to use minidsp for stereo listening while maintain ability to playback full atmos setup using the existing setup? Another possibility is to use one minidsp 88a to tune for 5.2 and the rest of the channel using audyssey. That might be a better solution with lower cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The only way this might be possible would be to set Audyssey to "Bypass L/R" to avoid applying both Audyssey and Dirac to both channels. I don't think this bypasses the sub channel, so you would end up with Audyssey for the subs, not Dirac. This approach definitely wouldn't work for a 5.1 setup, because you would end up with double-correction on some of the channels. Either way, I doubt the resulting audio would be very good.

IMO, you will get better sound with one 88A, and not bothering with correcting the overheads.

If you want to continue this discussion, please start a new thread.
There is a point of relevance to the app, and there is a way to do this. Yes, we would want Audyssey correcting the subwoofers and not cascading filters. But, with the app, if you set the Audyssey correction range to be lower that the crossover to a given speaker (the minimum is 20 Hz, so piece of cake) it should effectively disable it.

So, unlike using the AVR where you are stuck with L/R bypass, with the app you can effectively force a bypass for any channel except the subs.

You do have to do a bit of post-tweaking to get the contraption to work.

Also, with a DDRC-88A and the BM plugin, you can take that AUdyssey subwoofer output and do some useful stuff with it using the three spare channels, and yet bypass Dirac.

All that does deserve its own thread, but I did want to point out that the app is how you can do this and actually make it works, and that I have in fact done so, and it does work. And it showed me that Dirac and Audyssey measure very similarly, if you set them to behave similarly (in terms of setting the curve, and the cluster measurement pattern you use).

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post #359 of 1386 Old 04-24-2017, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vn800art View Post
Sorry, @beastaudio , could you pls elaborate more on the subject? You mean one have to look specifically to the sub distance/delay and trim it, and to get what? Once you have done it, you can only use the App to change other settings, doing another cal. will bring again old values. Or after applying trim to the sub's distance you use Rew or Dirac?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Changing the distance setting would impact the phase of the sub. In fact, sub distance is a phase setting when it comes to the sub. I suppose Audyssey could get the phase wrong.

Is that thread on AVS?

It will be interesting to see @imagic 's measurements.
You both, as well as anyone else really wanting a good read on subwoofer integration should give this a thorough read, then subsequently use it to blend your subs and mains properly:

mtg90??s multiple subwoofers + mains integration How To thread

You will of course need REW, OmniMic, or any other calibrated measurement suite to provide you with real-time results as you make adjustments. You do NOT need Dirac however.
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post #360 of 1386 Old 04-24-2017, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
There is a point of relevance to the app, and there is a way to do this. Yes, we would want Audyssey correcting the subwoofers and not cascading filters. But, with the app, if you set the Audyssey correction range to be lower that the crossover to a given speaker (the minimum is 20 Hz, so piece of cake) it should effectively disable it.

So, unlike using the AVR where you are stuck with L/R bypass, with the app you can effectively force a bypass for any channel except the subs.

You do have to do a bit of post-tweaking to get the contraption to work.

Also, with a DDRC-88A and the BM plugin, you can take that AUdyssey subwoofer output and do some useful stuff with it using the three spare channels, and yet bypass Dirac.

All that does deserve its own thread, but I did want to point out that the app is how you can do this and actually make it works, and that I have in fact done so, and it does work. And it showed me that Dirac and Audyssey measure very similarly, if you set them to behave similarly (in terms of setting the curve, and the cluster measurement pattern you use).
Still sounds like a Rube Goldberg to me....
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