Official Dolby Atmos 9.x.6 and beyond for Home Theaters (single AVR/Pro) thread - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 33 Old 09-25-2017, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Official Dolby Atmos 9.x.6 and beyond for Home Theaters (single AVR/Pro) thread

I' m currently running a 7.1.4 Atmos setup, and I've been waiting to upgrade to something beyond it for immersive audio.

With CEDIA '17 having come and gone, with all of the announcements of AVRs and processors that can truly render Atmos tracks beyond the 7.x.4 limit without resorting to tricks. It's time to do a deep dive of all of the options in one thread in this forum.

Apologies, but this thread is not meant to discuss kludges like multi-AVR solutions or DSP solutions that don't process ATMOS data directly.

As of the time of this posting, there's a plethora of good information scattered all over this forum regarding this subject.
However, most are stuck inside vendor or device specific threads where the discussion of the subject might not be obvious.

I'm hoping that this thread will serve as a central repository for all theories, speculation and exposition for all relevant issues.

Currently, Atmos soundtracks for the home theater (UHD or HD in disc or streaming formats) contain information that will allow an Atmos enabled decoder to render sound objects to a range of 7 speakers (5.x.2) to a max of 34 speakers (24.x.10) from a "bed" of 9.1 channels.

Most AVRs and processors are currently only able to render 11 true Atmos "channels" or objects (i.e. 7.1.4 or 12 channels).
Those that go beyond 12 channels will cost the price of a small car. I'm looking at you Trinnov and Datasat.

The next step in the evolution seemingly is 16 channel processing to take us to a maximum of 9.1.6.

To start, here are some threads that have shed light on this issue to various degrees:
Trinnov Altitude
StormAudio I.ISP 3D.16.12 16-Channel Integrated AV Processor Hands-On
Emotiva to Debut RMC-1 7.3.6-Channel AV Pre/Pro with Atmos and DTS:X at CES 2017
Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc)
Lyngdorf MP-50 | 12 Channel AV Processor; 9.1.6 with matrixed Wides and Top Middles
Acurus ACT 4 Processor (Atmos & DTS-X, 7.3.6 Channels)
JBL Synthesis SDP-75


Here's a list of units that can possibly support 15.1(9.1.6) This is information culled from the forum, vendor websites (including press releases), and some PMs to knowledgeable members.
MFG/Model Type Shipping Base Price (Not incl. Expansion Modules) Outputs Max Atmos Channels Rendered Atmos Speaker configuration support Max DTS-X Channels Rendered/ Speaker Config. Support Max Auro-3D Channels Rendered/ Speaker Config. Support DSP Room Correction Subwoofer Bass Mgmt. Support Other 3D Audio Support Other Features
Trinnov Altitude32(32) Pre/Pro Y =>$37K 32 <=32 (31.1) 5.1.2 -> 24.1.6 11.1(7.1.4) 13.1 (7.1.6) x86 (i7) Proprietary/32Ch. <=32 Wides/Heights, incl. w/Upmixer Modular Expansion Options, Upgradable FW/SW
Trinnov Altitude32(24) Pre/Pro Y =>$33K 24 <=24 (23.1) 5.1.2 -> 10.1.13 11.1(7.1.4) 13.1 (7.1.6) x86 (i7) Proprietary/24Ch. <=24 Wides/Heights, incl. w/Upmixer Modular Expansion Options, Upgradable FW/SW
Trinnov Altitude32(16) Pre/Pro Y =>$28K 16 <=16 (15.1) 5.1.2 -> 9.16 11.1(7.1.4) 13.1 (7.1.6) x86 (i7) Proprietary/24Ch. <=16 Wides/Heights, incl. w/Upmixer Modular Expansion Options, Upgradable FW/SW
Trinnov Altitude16 Pre/Pro N =>$16K 16 <=16 (15.1) 5.1.2 -> 9.1.6 11.1(7.1.4) 13.1 (7.1.6) x86 (i5) Proprietary/16Ch. <=16 Wides/Heights, incl. w/Upmixer Fixed Hardware Config. Upgradable FW/SW
JBL Synthesis SDP-75(32) Pre/Pro Y =>$32K 32 <=32 (31.1) 5.1.2 -> 24.1.6 11.1(7.1.4) 13.1 (7.1.6) x86 (i7) Proprietary/32Ch. <=32 Wides/Heights, incl. w/Upmixer Modular Expansion Options, Upgradable FW/SW Sold as part Revel or JBL Synthesis systems
JBL Synthesis SDP-75(24) Pre/Pro Y =>$28K 24 <=24 (23.1) 5.1.2 -> 10.1.13 11.1(7.1.4) 13.1 (7.1.6) x86 (i7) Proprietary/24Ch. <=24 Wides/Heights, incl. w/Upmixer Modular Expansion Options, Upgradable FW/SW Sold as part Revel or JBL Synthesis systems
JBL Synthesis SDP-75(16) Pre/Pro Y =>$24K 16 <=16 (15.1) 5.1.2 -> 9.16 11.1(7.1.4) 13.1 (7.1.6) x86 (i7) Proprietary/24Ch. <=16 Wides/Heights, incl. w/Upmixer Modular Expansion Options, Upgradable FW/SW Sold as part Revel or JBL Synthesis systems
Datasat RS20i Pre/Pro Y =>$21K 16 <=12 (11.1) 5.1.2 -> 7.1.4 11.1(7.1.4) 13.1 (7.1.6) ADI 4Gen SHARC Dirac Live/16Ch <=16 Matrixing of Wides/Heights Modular Expansion Options, Upgradable FW/SW
Datasat LS10 Pre/Pro Y =>$11K 15 <=12 (11.1) 5.1.2 -> 7.1.4 11.1(7.1.4) 13.1 (7.1.6) ADI 4Gen SHARC N/A <=15 Matrixing of Wides/Heights Modular Expansion Options, Upgradable FW/SW 13.2 output
Stormaudio I-ISP-3D-16-12 AVR/SSP Y =<$17K 16 <=14 (13.1) 5.1.2 -> 7.1.4 11.1(7.1.4) 13.1 (7.1.6) ADI 4Gen SHARC StormOptimizer/16ch.(Dirac Live) - pending <=16 Matrixing of Wides/Heights incl. No wides w/Upmixer Modular Expansion Options, Upgradable FW/SW 7.1.6 support imminent. 12 channels of amplification
Stormaudio ISP-3D-32 Elite Pre/Pro Y =<$19K 32 <=14 (13.1) 5.1.2 -> 7.1.4 11.1(7.1.4) 13.1 (7.1.6) ADI 4Gen SHARC StormOptimizer/16ch.(Dirac Live) - pending <=32 Matrixing of Wides/Heights incl. No wides w/Upmixer Modular Expansion Options, Upgradable FW/SW 7.1.6 support imminent.
Stormaudio ISP-3D-16 Elite Pre/Pro Y =<$14K 16 <=14 (13.1) 5.1.2 -> 7.1.4 11.1(7.1.4) 13.1 (7.1.6) ADI 4Gen SHARC StormOptimizer/16ch.(Dirac Live) - pending <=16 Matrixing of Wides/Heights incl. No wides w/Upmixer Modular Expansion Options, Upgradable FW/SW 7.1.6 support imminent.
Lyngdorf MP-50 Pre/Pro Y =>$10K 16 <=12 (11.1) 5.1.2 -> 7.1.4 11.1(7.1.4) 13.1 (7.1.6) ADI 4Gen SHARC Proprietary RoomPerfect/16Ch 1 Matrixing of Wides/Heights incl. No wides w/Upmixer Modular Expansion Options, Upgradable FW/SW
STEINWAY P200 Pre/Pro Y =>$18K 16 <=12 (11.1) 5.1.2 -> 7.1.4 11.1(7.1.4) 13.1 (7.1.6) ADI 4Gen SHARC Proprietary RoomPerfect/16Ch 1 Matrixing of Wides/Heights incl. No wides w/Upmixer Modular Expansion Options, Upgradable FW/SW
Emotiva RMC-1 Pre/Pro N =>$5K 16 <=16 (15.1) 5.1.2 -> 9.1.6 11.1(7.1.4) 13.1 (7.1.6) ADI 5Gen SHARC Dirac Live/16Ch <=4 Wides/Heights, incl. w/Upmixer Modular Expansion Options, Upgradable FW/SW
Acurus Act 4 Pre/Pro Y =>$8.5K 16 <=14 (13.1) 5.1.2 -> 7.1.6 11.1(7.1.4) n/a TI 66AK2x N/A 3 Matrixing of Wides/Heights incl. No wides w/Upmixer Upgradable FW/SW - 13.3 Output
Theta Digital Casablanca E AVR/SSP N =>$??K 32 <=32 (31.1) 5.1.2 -> 24.1.6 11.1(7.1.4) 13.1 (7.1.6) TI 66AK2x Dirac Live/32Ch <=32 Wides/Heights, incl. w/Upmixer Input, Output, Video and Audio processing options are configurable using modular expansion options. Might have been cancelled in favor of Datasat's solution as a result of ATI's purchase of both Theta and Datasat.


*** please free to chime in with corrections or additions. ***

Some pertinent questions raised in some of those threads are:
Is the 7.x.4 limitation of currently shipping DSP based units a result of the lack of processing power of the DSPs?
Or, is the limitation based on lack of a reference implementation from Dolby for Atmos beyond 11 channels for said DSPs?

Since Trinnov has implemented =>16 channel Atmos, why are the other manufacturers not developing their own implementations?

Given the price of these high channel count Atmos AVRs and processors, what features will be acceptable to you if they were not included in these devices?
For example, will you be willing to forgo room correction i.e. Dirac in such an AVRs or processor?

Life is short. Enjoy!
Andrew.

Last edited by midi-guy; 10-05-2017 at 06:41 AM. Reason: added more information
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post #2 of 33 Old 09-25-2017, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Placeholder for other pertinent information

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post #3 of 33 Old 09-25-2017, 11:06 PM
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Some quick clarifications:
Quote:
Originally Posted by midi-guy View Post
Currently, Atmos soundtracks for the home theater (UHD or HD in disc or streaming formats) contain information that will allow an Atmos enabled decoder to render sound objects to a range of 7 speakers (5.x.2) to a max of 34 speakers (24.x.10) from a "bed" of 9.1 channels.
About 8 months after the consumer versions of Atmos was released, a software update changed the minimum Atmos layout from 5.1.2 to 2.0.2. The term "bed" is synonymous with "channel", not speakers in the base layer. Theatrical Atmos has 10 beds: 3 fronts, 2 sides, 2 rears, 2 heights, LFE. Home Atmos has 8 beds: 3 front, 2 sides, 2 rears, LFE. Since there are no height beds for home Atmos, height information is reproduced using static objects (objects that mimic channels/beds by not moving AND arraying along the overhead speakers).
Quote:
Those that go beyond 12 channels will cost the price of a small car. I'm looking at you Trinnov and Datasat.
Datasat is 11.1 (in a 16-channel box).
Quote:
The next step in the evolution seemingly is 16 channel processing to take us to a maximum of 9.1.6.
Next step is likely 13.1 (Acurus, Denon, Marantz, Emotiva, StormAudio). The latter two recently started claiming 15.1; I'll remain skeptical but would be happy to be proven wrong.
Quote:
Is the 7.x.4 limitation of currently shipping DSP based units a result of the lack of processing power of the DSPs?
Yes. Discussed and put to rest in the Atmos thread 3 years ago. It's not a coincidence that higher channel counts are being announced right when newer DSP chips are coming out.
Quote:
Or, is the limitation based on lack of a reference implementation from Dolby for Atmos beyond 11 channels for said DSPs?
No. Also discussed and put to rest in the Atmos thread 3 years ago. You can ask Dolby yourself for confirmation.
Quote:
Since Trinnov has implemented =>16 channel Atmos, why are the other manufacturers not developing their own implementations?
Lack of processing horsepower. For example, the latest Analog Devices DSP (Griffin Lite) has two 450 megahertz cores. By comparison, the Trinnov Altitude32 has an i7 CPU with quad 3.5 gigahertz cores (maybe more than quad). Still, it's been 3 years since Atmos was released on consumer gear and the newest DSP chipsets are much faster than what was available in 2014, hence the additional channels coming soon.

Sanjay
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post #4 of 33 Old 09-26-2017, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Next step is likely 13.1 (Acurus, Denon, Marantz, Emotiva, StormAudio). The latter two recently started claiming 15.1; I'll remain skeptical but would be happy to be proven wrong.
Yes, the proof will be in the pudding as the say, regarding those manufacturers who've announced 15.1 processing.

For the purposes of this discussion let's say we'll take them at their word, should we therefore not be making a distinction between those AVR's and processors that can offer true Atmos decoding of up to 16 channels, versus those that can only do 14?

Essentially, without doing any kind of matrixing, 16 channel Atmos support is required to support wides and 6 heights simultaneously.

Aren't the Acurus/Storm Audio/Lyngdorf/McIntosh units currently or imminently doing only up to 7.1.6/9.1.4 - with some adding wides or heights using matrixing for up to 16 channels?

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post #5 of 33 Old 09-26-2017, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midi-guy View Post
For the purposes of this discussion let's say we'll take them at their word, should we therefore not be making a distinction between those AVR's and processors that can offer true Atmos decoding of up to 16 channels, versus those that can only do 14?
IF the information can be pried from manufacturers, I think it would be helpful to separate the various 16-channel boxes into true/native 15.1, 13.1 and 11.1 Atmos decoding.
Quote:
Aren't the Acurus/Storm Audio/Lyngdorf/McIntosh units currently or imminently doing only up to 7.1.6/9.1.4 - with some adding wides or heights using matrixing for up to 16 channels?
Going from memory, I think Acurus and Storm have already said their 16-channel box can currently do 13.1 as 7.1.6 (no support for wides.....yet). Lyngdorf clearly says on their product page that their 16-channel box is 11.1 native decoding (I'm guessing same for the McIntosh version).

Sanjay
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post #6 of 33 Old 09-28-2017, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Added list of SSPs to first post in the thread.

Last edited by midi-guy; 09-28-2017 at 01:49 PM.
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post #7 of 33 Old 09-28-2017, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midi-guy View Post
Added list of SSPs to first post in thread.
Regarding max Auro channels, it isn’t 9.1.4, it is 7.1.6. They have max 7.1 base level, and then 6 heights: front heights, surround heights, top surround(VOG)and center height.

(Actually surround back heights too, but they are copy of surround heights.)

Triple Atmos Receivers
Atmos 13.1.8/DTS:X 9.1.8/AURO 3D 12.1

My setup:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...l#post41323201
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post #8 of 33 Old 09-28-2017, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Regarding max Auro channels, it isn’t 9.1.4, it is 7.1.6. They have max 7.1 base level, and then 6 heights: front heights, surround heights, top surround(VOG)and center height.

(Actually surround back heights too, but they are copy of surround heights.)
corrected. thanks
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That's a pretty thorough table. Nice work! Datasat's lower priced unit is the LS10 (not LS20i). It is supposed to be getting Dirac Live room correction for all 13.2 channels (15 outputs). Will keep checking the Datasat thread to see if/when this happens so the table can be updated.
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post #10 of 33 Old 09-28-2017, 10:49 PM
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> Lyngdorf MP-50 Pre/Pro =>$18K


I believe the MSRP is $10k
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post #11 of 33 Old 09-29-2017, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Updated Datasat LS10 to show support for DTS-X per this post in the LS10 thread.
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Updated list of SSPs to include JBL Synthesis SDP-75 line.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
> Lyngdorf MP-50 Pre/Pro =>$18K


I believe the MSRP is $10k

Updated.
Thanks.

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Updated list of SSPs to include Theta Digital Casablanca E.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post
Updated table to reflect Dirac Live for Stormaudio units.
Thanks.

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One other addition:
Trinnov is also working on an software update to allow the 32 channel Altitude to be expanded to 48 channels. I think they're using the 16 Digital AES outputs alongside 32 analog DB25 ones to make that happen. Not sure when that's going to be released, but here's a link about it from earlier this year:


https://ce-pro.eu/2017/02/trinnov-au...-av-processor/


If you're ambitious enough, that means you can do the full tilt 24.1.10 and still have channels left over for something else, including multiple subs, a multiple speaker array, a separate Auro configuration (LOL), active crossover speakers etc.

Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channel), NAD M27 amps (3)
Video: JVC RS600, Seymour 100" UF Screen, Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 (coming soon)
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Speakers: PSB Imagine T3 LCR, Imagine T Wides and Side Surround 1, T2 Side Surrounds, Imagine XB rears, PSB CS1000 ceilings (6), HSU ULS-15 Mk 2 subs (4) - 11.4.6
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post #18 of 33 Old 10-04-2017, 05:07 PM
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Acurus uses a Texas Instrument chipset for decoding, not Analog Devices SHARC AFAIK.

I did some research on ADI SHARC chipsets that I summarized here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ultra-hi-end-ht-gear-20-000/1444649-official-datasat-rs20i-thread-setup-tips-questions-general-info-etc-post54785884.html

I don't think the Casablanca E is still an active project. I asked about it specifically and it seems that Datasat will be ATI's solution for the time being for ≥16 channels.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ultra-hi-end-ht-gear-20-000/1313052-official-theta-owners-thread-post54899926.html

The Lyngdorf MP-50 uses 8 SHARC chips and I would assume the P200 uses at least that many as the MP-50 is based on the P200. It is discussed in the MP-50 whitepaper downloadable here: http://lyngdorf.com/mp-50/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Acurus uses a Texas Instrument chipset for decoding, not Analog Devices SHARC AFAIK.

I did some research on ADI SHARC chipsets that I summarized here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=54785884

I don't think the Casablanca E is still an active project. I asked about it specifically and it seems that Datasat will be ATI's solution for the time being for ≥16 channels.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=54899926

The Lyngdorf MP-50 uses 8 SHARC chips and I would assume the P200 uses at least that many as the MP-50 is based on the P200. It is discussed in the MP-50 whitepaper downloadable here: http://lyngdorf.com/mp-50/
Thanks.
Updated DSP type for each SSP to be more specific.
Also noted possible cancellation of Theta's Casablanca E.

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Does anybody know how the processors create the "missing" channels when you connect more channels than they can decode?
For example, an RS20. If you connect 6 Atmos channels while it can only decode 4,is the middle height channel created by adding front and rear height channels and some delay?
Same for side the channels. What is routed to the side channels if you do an installation with 6 side channels? Is the processor just outputting the same signal (with time correction and room eq) to all side speakers?
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post #21 of 33 Old 10-05-2017, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Regarding max Auro channels, it isn’t 9.1.4, it is 7.1.6. They have max 7.1 base level, and then 6 heights: front heights, surround heights, top surround(VOG)and center height.

(Actually surround back heights too, but they are copy of surround heights.)
Yes, and allthough displayed in the Auro3D set-up guidelines as an option for large rooms, Surround Back Heights are not a part of the Auro3D codec and can only be added through post-processing by a capable AVR/processor (with an arraying/matrixing option).
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post #22 of 33 Old 10-05-2017, 11:12 AM
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Glad I found this thread. I've set my theater up with a 9.2 (LCR L&R-heights and 4 surrounds) and have been waiting years for someone to implement a 9.2.4 or would settle for a 7.2.4. In either case a 13.2 receiver. Saw an add for the Denon AVR-X8500H which is 13.2
I couldn't find any information on it and there was no mention at Ceda last month, so hoping CES in early 2018 there'll be some info on it.

Does anyone have any info on this?

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Originally Posted by sddp View Post
Glad I found this thread. I've set my theater up with a 9.2 (LCR L&R-heights and 4 surrounds) and have been waiting years for someone to implement a 9.2.4 or would settle for a 7.2.4. In either case a 13.2 receiver. Saw an add for the Denon AVR-X8500H which is 13.2
I couldn't find any information on it and there was no mention at Ceda last month, so hoping CES in early 2018 there'll be some info on it.

Does anyone have any info on this?
The AVR-X8500H is Denon's upcoming flagship AVR.
It's slated to be announced at CES 2018 (January 2018), and it's at least about 6 months away from shipping.
I'm guessing Denon is going to be using a Gen 5 DSP to bump up the channel count from that of the X6400H.
It will probably do 9.2.4, but not 7.1.6
2017 Denon thread.

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Last edited by midi-guy; 10-05-2017 at 05:13 PM.
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post #24 of 33 Old 10-05-2017, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sddp View Post
Saw an add for the Denon AVR-X8500H which is 13.2
Where'd you see an ad?
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post #25 of 33 Old 10-05-2017, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by midi-guy View Post
The AVR-X8500H is Denon's upcoming flagship AVR.
It's slated to be announced at CES 2018 (January 2018), and it's at least about 6 months away from shipping.
[snip]
It will probably do 9.2.4, but not 7.1.6
I believe it will support 7.1.6, with 9.1.4 being up in the air. I also believe the X8500H and AV8805 will beat Emotiva to market. They seem to be taking the exact opposite approach to Emotiva (over-promise/under-deliver).

JIMO
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post #26 of 33 Old 10-05-2017, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Where'd you see an ad?
Best Buy jumped the gun on the announcement.
Denon thread. Post 54650034
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post #27 of 33 Old 10-05-2017, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by midi-guy View Post

It will probably do 9.2.4, but not 7.1.6
I hope so. That would be a dream come true.

Can anyone confirm this or have more insight?

I've already installed a 9.2 and would be extremely ideal to go 9.2.4.

Epson 5040UBE | DENON X6400H | XBOX ONE S\PS4 | EMOTIVA XPA-7 GEN 2 |EMOTIVA XPA 3 GEN 3 | ELITE SCREEN 150" ZEREO EDGE W/LED KIT
KLIPSCH L&R RF-7II | CENTER RC64II | HEIGHTS RB-81II | 4 SURROUNDS RS-62II | 2 CDT-5800 | SUBS R112SW, R12SW & 2 x R115SW
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post #28 of 33 Old 10-05-2017, 06:03 PM
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Best Buy jumped the gun on the announcement.
Denon thread. Post 54650034
So weird because the date at the bottom shows updated 6/26/17. How would they know in June of this year what the feature set would be for a 2018 release. It looks legit (not a photoshop) but the timing seems very odd.
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post #29 of 33 Old 10-05-2017, 06:10 PM
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I was under the impression that the Denon 13.2 was only going to be 11.2 for one zone and the other 2 speakers for zone 2 like the current Marantz 8802a. I hope I am wrong but i think it was discussed in the 8802a thread with anticipation for the replacement 8805 now I think they are calling it.
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post #30 of 33 Old 10-10-2017, 05:52 AM
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Going from memory, I think Acurus and Storm have already said their 16-channel box can currently do 13.1 as 7.1.6 (no support for wides.....yet).
Yes, that was also the face-to-face info I got from both companies at last ISE.
However, the hands-on report on the Stormaudio processor tells that 7.1.6 is not yet activated:

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Alas, until some sort of update rolls out, the existing 11-channel limit restricts me to 7.1.4 or 5.1.6 and for my needs 7.1.4 admittedly makes more sense. So I spoke too soon. I suppose I could do 5.1.4.2 and have compatibility with all three 3D immersive audio formats, to pass the time.
Do we have such hands-on reality check on the Acurus?

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