List of Digital (Class-D) Home Theater Receivers - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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Receivers, Amps, and Processors > List of Digital (Class-D) Home Theater Receivers
F3K's Avatar F3K 11:52 AM 07-01-2004
Beowulf, what is the bass management like on the Kenwood VRS-7100? Does it allow for individual settings for all speakers, like the HK's, or does it simply vary the sub's x-over? Are there multiple x-over settings for the sub?

Ralarcon's Avatar Ralarcon 12:40 PM 07-01-2004
The Yamaha receivers have a lot of digital sound processing but when the signals get to the power amps these are converted into analog at the amplifier. However what I would like to see are digital power amps with 7 channels. I would be willing to bet that you would eventually get much better power less heat at a cheaper price with these digital units (also better space management ). Then you can use your Yamaha receivers as pre- amps. I own a RX-v 2400, but Im aware that analogue power amps. will, in the not too distant future go the way of the tube amps.
beowulf7's Avatar beowulf7 09:12 PM 07-01-2004
Quote:


Originally posted by F3K
Beowulf, what is the bass management like on the Kenwood VRS-7100? Does it allow for individual settings for all speakers, like the HK's, or does it simply vary the sub's x-over? Are there multiple x-over settings for the sub?

I'll let you know after I check it out this holiday weekend.
nevea2be's Avatar nevea2be 01:00 AM 07-02-2004
Quote:


Originally posted by Grayson73
What other receivers? The Yamaha are not digital receivers and the other Sony are European only.



My bad. I saw a couple other's listed and just assumed. Sorry
Ralarcon's Avatar Ralarcon 09:31 AM 07-02-2004
20 lashes with a wet noodle for nevea2be. (its ok).
sethwas's Avatar sethwas 10:51 AM 07-02-2004
Wow, those MSRP's are really decieving.
The street prices for the pioneer elite amp AND dvd player are less than $400.
The street prices for the panasonic XR50 is less than $250.
The street prices for the kenwood is less than $400.
The HK 1001 is less than $500. The 1005 is a grand. The 2005 is $200 more.
The JVC RX-ES1SL is less than $300.
The sonys start at $500 and go up like $100 a model or so.

Seth

P.S. I think it would be helpful to mention which ones use regular banana plugs and which use pins.
BenF's Avatar BenF 02:05 PM 07-02-2004
I'm still interested in who uses whose chips/architecture. So far....

Panasonic - uses TI chips (from Tocatta) PWM
Sony - uses their own/Mitsubishi chips, DSD like
Sharp - uses their own chips, DSD like
Kenwood - uses TI or Tripath chips?? PWM
JVC - uses Tripath or ??? chips, PWM
Pioneer - uses ???? in EX500, VSX50
Sanyo - uses Tripath chips, PWM
Yamaha - not yet out?
Denon - uses Tripath (based on old press release) or ???, in the U.S.?
H/K - 1005 = Apogee, 2005 = www.d2audio.com, PWM

others?

Thanks.
nevea2be's Avatar nevea2be 07:14 AM 07-03-2004
Quote:


Originally posted by Ralarcon
20 lashes with a wet noodle for nevea2be. (its ok).



Yeah, don't be starting something that you have no plans on finishing






Quote:


P.S. I think it would be helpful to mention which ones use regular banana plugs and which use pins.


Good idea and if there is a way of saying what the size of the banana clip is? I know my Kenwood receiver will not take the Monster quick connects. The hole is just to small for them
M Code's Avatar M Code 08:53 AM 07-03-2004
Quote:


Originally posted by BenF
I'm still interested in who uses whose chips/architecture. So far....

Panasonic - uses TI chips (from Tocatta) PWM
Sony - uses their own/Mitsubishi chips, DSD like
Sharp - uses their own chips, DSD like
Kenwood - uses TI or Tripath chips?? PWM
JVC - uses Tripath or ??? chips, PWM
Pioneer - uses ???? in EX500, VSX50
Sanyo - uses Tripath chips, PWM
Yamaha - not yet out?
Denon - uses Tripath (based on old press release) or ???, in the U.S.?
H/K - 1005 = Apogee, 2005 = www.d2audio.com, PWM

others?

Thanks.

You should add a few more details to the list..
1. Kenwood 7100, 8100
2. You should clarify which ones have analog inputs in front of the PWM amplifier, such as the Tripath so it is really a hybrid design..
3. Yamaha has shown certain models with their own developed digital amplifier solution
4. Sharp has abandoned this category
SoftwireEngineer's Avatar SoftwireEngineer 06:13 PM 07-03-2004
Kenwood also uses TI chips like the Panasonic (PurePath is TI's term for its chips that compete with the Tripath).
JVC uses Tripath chips.
M Code, are you sure Sharp has abandoned this category ?
Ben F, please keep summarizing this once in a while. It is a good contribution from you.
M Code's Avatar M Code 09:42 PM 07-03-2004
Quote:


Originally posted by SoftwireEngineer
Kenwood also uses TI chips like the Panasonic (PurePath is TI's term for its chips that compete with the Tripath).
JVC uses Tripath chips.
M Code, are you sure Sharp has abandoned this category ?
Ben F, please keep summarizing this once in a while. It is a good contribution from you.

The TI parts also called EquaBit are actually from a Danish company called Tocada which was staffed by Harman engineers and then about 2 years ago TI bought the entire company and their IP. The TI solution is very good sonically, but its drawback is the lack of high power (>75W into 8 Ohms). Sharp in Japan has already stated they are going to concentrate on video technologies rather than audio oriented ones like their digital amplifiers solution...
Earz's Avatar Earz 11:20 AM 07-04-2004
Quote:


Originally posted by SoftwireEngineer
Kenwood also uses TI chips like the Panasonic (PurePath is TI's term for its chips that compete with the Tripath).
JVC uses Tripath chips.
M Code, are you sure Sharp has abandoned this category ?
Ben F, please keep summarizing this once in a while. It is a good contribution from you.


S/E, are you shure that JVC or anyone uses an actual tri path chip in a direct digital application?

I beleive they use there own digital amp or what they call hybrid dual digital feedback, which seems like there own modified version of an enhanced tri path design.

Last I knew, there were no direct digital tri path based products, but rather analog based digital amps only.

I am only asking because I do not know for sure, as there seems to be no solid info on this.
SoftwireEngineer's Avatar SoftwireEngineer 04:50 PM 07-04-2004
Earz,
Re: JVC . I dont know for sure. People are speculating based on JVC's license with Tripath and the character of the sound (Dmason/DrD).
Did you see my post on biamping with Speaker B terminals with XR50 ? No, need to mess with Party mode, surround terminals etc. You can biamp in stereo and still use it in multichannel mode.
The extra power even with my highly efficient speakers, makes a difference. With the extra power, it sounds like a high-end, powerful analog amplifier. I just cant believe I spent only $250 on this.
Alan Gouger's Avatar Alan Gouger 02:13 PM 07-10-2004
Im making this a sticky for a little while seeing as these new digitals are
a new breed and drawing some attention!
beowulf7's Avatar beowulf7 02:27 PM 07-10-2004
Sounds good, Alan!

BTW, how do you like your Kenwood VRS-7100 so far? I like ours so far, except for those tiny spring clip speaker connectors that are 12-ga. speaker wire unfriendly.
ABEX's Avatar ABEX 05:06 PM 07-10-2004
Why can't you use Pins or just try Solid Core Conductors which IMO are better anyway.You do not need to use Pins or connectors with Solid Core Conductors. I tried every conceivable design using Ag which from last I knew was still the best conductor, and Single Solid Core conductors won out for being less congested and giving better detail than any other design I tried .It has to be used in a Spiral in order to tame some of the bad traits.

Most people have reported that Ag did not work good with the Panasonic unit, but using it in a spiral takes away the bad traits associated with Ag like stridency and brightness.

You can easily make your own Ag cables for well under $75. But I would also make certain that you are using a burner because they need it to get the most from them.

My copper cable is almost as good as Ag and is single core. What it lacks is extension of Highs and lows compared to Ag.

Dr.D knows about my Copper Wires and can vouch for what I am saying as he has tested and uses my cables.
-----------------------------
Digital Amps and chips
They will just get better from here on out. I wonder what will be coming out for improvements. I want to see the day when a complete integrated system exist that will perform as good as a SOTA separate system like a Linn system I read about recently.

I still feel that conventional amps are better ,but the new digi amps make having an entry level system tolerable to listen to now and matched with some speakers can come close to being SOTA in performance.

Just thinking!
www.nearsota.com
Alan Gouger's Avatar Alan Gouger 05:33 PM 07-10-2004
beowulf7

I love it. Now that I have the correct speaker configuration chosen in the set up menu I have had no shut downs and this thing plays ear bleeding loud.

I can see where the spring clips would give 14 or 12 gage wire a hard time.

I cant wait for the Panny 70 to hit. Im going to give that try also.


ABEX

What are Ag..?

Thanks!
beowulf7's Avatar beowulf7 09:42 PM 07-10-2004
Alan, what speaker wires are you using? Given that smallness of the speaker wire connectors on the receiver, I'm probably going to go w/ flex pin (a.k.a. "flex-pin") adapter as I mentioned in this thread. I'm still deciding whether to get the $20 Monster or the $9 FLEX-PIN-4 adapter.
ABEX's Avatar ABEX 06:00 PM 07-11-2004
Alan:
Ag is Silver wire and Cu is Copper.

Look at my FAQ page to get a description as to what I have found to work. I have heard people say that Ag(Silver) does not work with the Panasonic receivers,but I'll be damned if mine does not as I have Siingle Solid Core Copper which I use also. I designed my cables to have a wide degree of compatibilty with different setups.

The Copper OTA is similar to what another company sells in a Kit for $700US dollars. It is one of the reasons I carry it. I have also had my designs tested by others who have a good stable of cables with reference gear to see how they compare.

Any questions you need answered just write. I would rather see people buy Solid Core even if it's not through me instead of a lot of other designs I have tried.

www.nearsota.com
mice's Avatar mice 04:21 AM 07-12-2004
Hi, if I'm looking for a AV receiver with 6.1 pre-out; with DTS-ES and THX, which one you guys recommand ?? As I have a seperate 6-channel power amp; so, the output power will not be an issue....
THX !
ABEX's Avatar ABEX 04:09 PM 07-12-2004
Mice
People are shedding their higher valued gear and just using these Panasonic Digital amps.

As for mself I am using the Panasonic Digital amp for an HT setup and am building a seperate 2ch. reference system to use for testing and enjoyment purposes in my workshop.

I would try one of the new Digital amps to see weather it replaces what you are using for amps. You might be surprised and sell off your amps.

I do not know what Receiver\\Processors you could use with your amps. You might need to buy a seperate processor in order to use your amps. Rotel and Anthem are the 2 lowest Processors that I know of which I would use with a 6channel amp. If it is a Plinius Odeon or Theta Drednaught I would rather not part with it either and would look for a processor which fits the bill,but it will be quite expensive.

Good luck and maybe someone can suggest a receiver which allows for the processing part only to be used.
Keenan's Avatar Keenan 04:35 PM 07-12-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by ABEX
Mice
People are shedding their higher valued gear and just using these Panasonic Digital amps.


That's a pretty broad statement to make,


mice,

Any reciever that has pre-outs on it will provide what you need.


Jim
Earz's Avatar Earz 04:42 PM 07-12-2004
This is an initial impression reveiw of the JVC rx-f-10 digital hybrid receiver which uses some form of tri path technology.
Out of the box, it sounds closed in whith a tubey sounding midrange and somewhat distorted sounding highs.

After 45-50 hours it seems to have opened up whith a deeper soundstage then the detailed, forward sounding Pany 45.

It is slightly shorter in depth than the Pany and weighs about double because of its transformer most likely.
It has cheesy spring clips and a way too bright blue light on the front that can be dimmed or shut off via the remote.

This receiver will stun you whith its bass output, and in that aspect, it shines.

As far as the tubey sound, I now know what Bel Canto owners are reffereing to, and some may prefer this sound to the Panys precise mids and highs.

I already ruled this receiver out for HT. as it shut off whith the volume at 30 during LOTR in dd ex mode last night and the volume tops out at 50.
If you have more effeicient speakers than 6 ohm 88 db, you may not have this problem.

The rest of my time whith the JVC rx- f-10 will be for stereo playback only.

It does do sa-cd a bit better than the Panys, but no where near my Sim Audio i-5 for sa-cd.

Most likely, this receiver can be used to bi-amp in all channel stereo mode or one of the other many modes it offers.
ABEX's Avatar ABEX 04:42 PM 07-12-2004
Not really, as I did it and so have a lot of other people I have read.

That is not to say that you should ,only that you might want to test to see weather it is right for you before doing so.

JMO
Earz's Avatar Earz 07:29 PM 07-12-2004
[quote]Originally posted by keenan
[b]That's a pretty broad statement to make,


I have to agree whith ABEX statement as I went from a 8k pre/pro amp combo to A panny 45 for HT.

I just read a post at www.audioasylum.com in the amp section were a poster , who is shocked,says the Pany 50 is more transparent than the 20k worth of gear he has, and I have read many more of these types of posts in the last 6 months or so on quite a few boards.

The very few people who have not liked the Panys all seem to have one thing in common....
They all have particularly hard loads to drive on there speakers.


At any rate, whith sound this good for this cheap price, just think what the future for digital amplification might yeild for receivers.

That is what excites me most about these cheap digital wonders.
Keenan's Avatar Keenan 07:50 PM 07-12-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by ABEX
Not really, as I did it and so have a lot of other people I have read.

That is not to say that you should ,only that you might want to test to see weather it is right for you before doing so.

JMO

I happen to think digital amplifier technology is very interesting and intend to audition some of the basic amp offerings out there now.

All I was saying is that possibly the qualifier of "some" might have been more on the mark. The statement as it was made could make the uninitiated or less informed(mice possibly) think that all other options were less desirable which is truly not the case.

Jim
Tack's Avatar Tack 10:34 PM 07-12-2004
I have easy to drive speakers --91db 8 ohm---and couldnt take a week with the panny.Thin sound (to me).
When visiting Best Buy there are almost always open box pannys there for sale. Someone is returning them.
Im not trying to be harsh because I WANTED to like it...its cheap and so am I ---But I believe more people who like it post about it than those who dont...

Plus like keenan said
"The statement as it was made could make the uninitiated or less informed(mice possibly) think that all other options were less desirable which is truly not the case."
Earz's Avatar Earz 11:54 PM 07-12-2004
[quote]Originally posted by Tack
[b]I have easy to drive speakers --91db 8 ohm---and couldnt take a week with the panny.Thin sound (to me).
When visiting Best Buy there are almost always open box pannys there for sale. Someone is returning them.
Im not trying to be harsh because I WANTED to like it...its cheap and so am I ---But I believe more people who like it post about it than those who dont..

They never sold the Pany 45 at Best Buy or CC, and you will notice in all the threads on any Pany, that you need to let it burn in.....
When you have a 30 day return, what did you possibly have to lose.

If you are reffering to the 50, I have not heard one yet.

Another common thread is, the people that rave the most about the Panys, have the most revealing speakers, which are also reasonably effecient.


I have three BB's and three CC's in my area and none have or had any open boxes at all except for display models that they would not sell,when I checked for a relative for the 25 and now 50 model.
.

The digital receiver for you would probably be the JVC RX-F-10 as it has a lot of bass output and a tubey midrange whith a slightly rolled off hi end and only requires about two days to sound good.
Keenan's Avatar Keenan 02:12 AM 07-13-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by Tack
But I believe more people who like it post about it than those who dont...


That's true of almost any piece of equipment and precisely why you should audition it with your own system, with your own ears, which you have done and made your decision. I applaud that, it's amazing how many people purchase equipment simply because they have been told it's the best and when they don't like it they are told it must be because they are not experienced enough to hear why it's the best. There isn't 2 pairs of ears on this planet that hear everything exactly the same.

Good luck in your pursuit for a new receiver...

Jim
Keenan's Avatar Keenan 02:18 AM 07-13-2004
[quote]Originally posted by Earz
Quote:
[i]

have the most revealing speakers, which are also reasonably effecient.

mmm.. and this is based on....?

Jim
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