List of Digital (Class-D) Home Theater Receivers - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 1899 Old 12-16-2004, 10:32 AM
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In my experience the H/K 2005 generates a little more heat than the Panny so I'm surprised at your finding. The H/K is not a hybrid I believe the Sony ES line is hybrid. The H/K has 7 ch and a high current design so it should output more heat.
Heat should not be a problem for any of them if they are properly ventilated.
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post #722 of 1899 Old 12-16-2004, 10:43 AM
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One of the reasons that the Panny might sound harsh is - the varying impedence of the speaker. Digital amplifiers have a low-pass filter at the output to filter out the high frequencies from the pulsing output. This filter's response is affected by the speaker load connected to it. That is the reason the Panny is rated '6-8ohms'. This means the filter circuit's parameters were chosen with these numbers in mind.
The D2Audio's technology has a way of adjusting the filter's response based on the speaker impedence. But my research tells me it is not that great, but surely could be better than the TI technology in the Panny in this context. Varying impedence of the speaker is the Achilles heel of digital technology. Some versions of the digital technology could be better than others in this. So the bottomline is to pair the digital amplifiers with the speakers with stable impedence and rating as specified by the vendor.
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post #723 of 1899 Old 12-16-2004, 11:28 AM
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I find many of Sony's points a bit disingenuous. They left out the likely biggest motivator - to be cost competitive, everyone in the value market will be going digital.

The power supply is the single most expensive thing in a receiver, and that's where digital saves.

Noah
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post #724 of 1899 Old 12-16-2004, 12:53 PM
 
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They also save in DAC's (digital to analog converters) which might be second or third in cost to the power supply. The processing chip is probably second.
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post #725 of 1899 Old 12-16-2004, 01:13 PM
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Same question, beaten to death, but will post again anyway :-)

So, if I dont want HDMI "switching" and have only 5.1 setup, is there any advantage of buying XR70 over XR50 ? The only other reason I can find may be "better electronics" in XR70 compared to XR50 ? Some hardware bugs solved and new refinements introduced ?

Thanks
Mudit
p.s.: its a $100 question (difference between xr50 and xr70)
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post #726 of 1899 Old 12-16-2004, 01:22 PM
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NO.

Tony

In search of the Holy Grail.

Hometown team
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post #727 of 1899 Old 12-16-2004, 02:50 PM
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Thanks TG !
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post #728 of 1899 Old 12-16-2004, 02:51 PM
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Sony has an excellent document that explains the technology quite well. While the document is about Sony's ES series, many of the principles apply to digital amps in general. The first step is to understand the limitations of analog amplifiers. I'll quote some of the document here, and provide a link below.

Thanks for the info JnC. I'm totally open to the idea of a digital A/V receiver, nothing just jumped out at me when looking at the receivers posted on page 1 of this thread. (specs, price, features) I'll probably do some more research and talk to some vendors at CES in January.
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post #729 of 1899 Old 12-16-2004, 02:54 PM
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There is no confusion to your logic. Buy what you like. They are the future because they are the future. High output, low power consumption, green design, blah, blah, blah. But you can use any logic you like to buy what you like. Don't worry, it's still a free country.

Not sure how to take that but thanks for the reply.
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post #730 of 1899 Old 12-16-2004, 02:57 PM
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I was at panasonic website and doing a comparison between XR70 and XR50. It says thet XR50 is energy star whereas XR70 is not. Don't know if it'll have any impact on the "green design" :-)
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post #731 of 1899 Old 12-16-2004, 08:42 PM
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Is it just me or do you think that there were not a heck of a lot of improvements by the manufacturers between 1st gen. and 2nd gen. digi-amp'ed receivers? Granted, not many makes have had 2 generations of receivers. Off the top of my head, H/K and Panasonic have.

I hope next year's 3rd (or 2nd) gen. digi-amp'ed receivers are a much bigger improvement. For example, I'd like to see 7.1 and banana plugs become the de facto standard, unless the receiver is low end (< $300).

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post #732 of 1899 Old 12-17-2004, 06:10 AM
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Originally posted by reincarnate
This raises the key point to which I seek the answer too. That is, if they XR70 is set up in a system with excellent power conditioning (protection from the harsh, edgy RFI which ill effects every system) will it still have a tendency to sound a bit bright? The clarity and resolution are there!

I've got the high end setup, but the only place that sells this unit locally is Fry's, which is charging 25% over list price. Stop.

After this was posted I became more determined and ordered on-line, from One Call. They advertised: HURRY ONLY ONE UNIT LEFT!

Only afterwards did they sent me an e-mail stating to call them. They THEN told me that the unit was B stock. How disingenuous. Stop! Stop!

Next up was a Google search. This place, at the top of the list, is out of stock. Ulterior motive suspected. (I think they just want you to go to their site). Stop! Stop Stop!

Panasonic distribution sucks!
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post #733 of 1899 Old 12-17-2004, 07:28 AM
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has anyone tried to compare these digi receivers with Pioneer 1014...the Pio is getting a lot of good reviews and can be had for less than $400...
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post #734 of 1899 Old 12-17-2004, 08:06 AM
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capecodorthopod,

Thanks for recounting your experience regarding heat generation in these units. I found it curious also.

Wes
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post #735 of 1899 Old 12-17-2004, 08:15 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by beowulf7
Is it just me or do you think that there were not a heck of a lot of improvements by the manufacturers between 1st gen. and 2nd gen.

I agree. I dont understand the lack of typical software features. Do they think because its a digital receiver for some reason we no longer need these features. Makes you wonder whos behind the drawing board. I hope we dont have to sit through another few generations worth waiting for a loaded digital. The Sony is loaded but its also not cheap, its huge and weights a ton.




Ivis

Knowing nothing about this model is the Pioneer 1014 a digital receiver?
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post #736 of 1899 Old 12-17-2004, 08:24 AM
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Alan,

No...the Pioneer 1014 is analog....just wondering if anybody compared this ne to any digital amps/receivers...since it is almost in the same price range..(although the pioneer has lots of features, 7.1, thx, banana plugs, dpliix, mcacc, etc...) some are even saying it is a Pioneer Elite in a Pioneer Badged receiver....
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post #737 of 1899 Old 12-17-2004, 08:26 AM
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anyone trying to offload their old xr50 after upgrading to xr70, please PM me. I'm looking to buy one. thanks mudit
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post #738 of 1899 Old 12-17-2004, 02:57 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by beowulf7
Is it just me or do you think that there were not a heck of a lot of improvements by the manufacturers between 1st gen. and 2nd gen. digi-amp'ed receivers? Granted, not many makes have had 2 generations of receivers. Off the top of my head, H/K and Panasonic have.

I hope next year's 3rd (or 2nd) gen. digi-amp'ed receivers are a much bigger improvement. For example, I'd like to see 7.1 and banana plugs become the de facto standard, unless the receiver is low end (< $300).

Digital amplifiers are improving with each generation for the most part..
And this is very noticebale especially with HK between their generation1 which was Apogee and generation 2 which is D2Audio. As the technology matures and takes advantage of higher power processors the resolution, bandwith and end sound quality improves.. However since the Panasonic XR products are designed by TI not Panasonic they continue to use the old TI design (5182). The 5182 design was actually developed by Tocada which was bought by TI however the engineers were actually
from Harman... So you can see Harman has been deeply involved with digital amplifiers for many, many years...

Another big difference is power, a PWM amplifier rated @ 70W/CH into 8 Ohms is considerably easier to design, build and certify than one of higher power. At higher power (>100W/CH into 8 Ohms) the technical challenges of RFI, EMI, grounding and basically just reducing its noise are very, very significant.. @ the WCES2005 there will many more new announcements for digital amplifiers.. and yes they do have the capability of sounding as good as a quality analog design, yet in a smaller foot print @ less expensive price points..
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post #739 of 1899 Old 12-17-2004, 08:30 PM
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Originally posted by Alan Gouger
I agree. I dont understand the lack of typical software features. Do they think because its a digital receiver for some reason we no longer need these features. Makes you wonder whos behind the drawing board. I hope we dont have to sit through another few generations worth waiting for a loaded digital. The Sony is loaded but its also not cheap, its huge and weights a ton.
...

Yeah, it doesn't make sense. Maybe it's b/c they're trying to stay under a certain price point ($300-350) that they cut out some of these features. I wish they were willing to go to the next price point and include stuff like 7.1 speaker connectors via banana plugs, more HDMI, etc. It seems like right now, you either go for something in the $300-350 range or have to spend close to a grand or more. Are there any $500 options?

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post #740 of 1899 Old 12-17-2004, 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by M Code
Digital amplifiers are improving with each generation for the most part..
And this is very noticebale especially with HK between their generation1 which was Apogee and generation 2 which is D2Audio. As the technology matures and takes advantage of higher power processors the resolution, bandwith and end sound quality improves.. However since the Panasonic XR products are designed by TI not Panasonic they continue to use the old TI design (5182). The 5182 design was actually developed by Tocada which was bought by TI however the engineers were actually
from Harman... So you can see Harman has been deeply involved with digital amplifiers for many, many years...

Another big difference is power, a PWM amplifier rated @ 70W/CH into 8 Ohms is considerably easier to design, build and certify than one of higher power. At higher power (>100W/CH into 8 Ohms) the technical challenges of RFI, EMI, grounding and basically just reducing its noise are very, very significant.. @ the WCES2005 there will many more new announcements for digital amplifiers.. and yes they do have the capability of sounding as good as a quality analog design, yet in a smaller foot print @ less expensive price points..

I suppose they are improving. I was mainly thinking of Panasonic, whose amps did not supposedly improve at all between the 'XR45 and 'XR50/'70. I've read that the H/K DPR 1001 was a piece of crap, so it did not take much for H/K to improve that for this year's model ('1005/'2005). I wonder if H/K will have a '3000-series for next year's model, and if so, what enhancements they'd make (HDMI comes to mind).

Procrastination is the thief of time.
-- Edward Young

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temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety.

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post #741 of 1899 Old 12-17-2004, 09:43 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by beowulf7
I suppose they are improving. I was mainly thinking of Panasonic, whose amps did not supposedly improve at all between the 'XR45 and 'XR50/'70. I've read that the H/K DPR 1001 was a piece of crap, so it did not take much for H/K to improve that for this year's model ('1005/'2005). I wonder if H/K will have a '3000-series for next year's model, and if so, what enhancements they'd make (HDMI comes to mind).

The HK 2005 can be bought for $999, it puts out 200W x7 into 4 Ohms, 120W x7 into 8 Ohms.. To me that is alot of power, plus it has all of the latest DPL2x, Dolby Headphone, Logic 7, high current and 100 MHZ Component Video Bandwidth. For $999 I know of no competitive AVR model analog or digital that matches its performance and features, so to me it is 1 incredible value.. Since the 2005 is now about 6 moths old, so definitely next year we should see certain replacement models..
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post #742 of 1899 Old 12-17-2004, 09:47 PM
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M Code,

True. Its missing a few critical things for some, video upswitching, and not critical but "should" have been included in a full digital amp "I-Link/HDMI" or similar hi-res audio connect
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post #743 of 1899 Old 12-17-2004, 09:56 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by M Code
The HK 2005 can be bought for $999, it puts out 200W x7 into 4 Ohms, 120W x7 into 8 Ohms.. To me that is alot of power, plus it has all of the latest DPL2x, Dolby Headphone, Logic 7, high current and 100 MHZ Component Video Bandwidth. For $999 I know of no competitive AVR model analog or digital that matches its performance and features, so to me it is 1 incredible value.. Since the 2005 is now about 6 moths old, so definitely next year we should see certain replacement models..

Yeah it sure has a lot, but is missing HDMI, which in fairness to the H/K 2005, was implemented by various makes after H/K had designed the '2005.

That is a great receiver, but I don't know if it's a great "value". I'd like to see everything you mentioned (OK, maybe a little less power is acceptable and can do w/o Logic 7) for $500. That would still be about $150-170 more expensive than the 'XR70, but half the price of those high end digi-amp'ed receivers.

How much is that Sony hybrid receiver that some people have mentioned here?

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post #744 of 1899 Old 12-17-2004, 10:20 PM
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Originally posted by beowulf7
Yeah it sure has a lot, but is missing HDMI, which in fairness to the H/K 2005, was implemented by various makes after H/K had designed the '2005.

The latest HDMI standards (1.2) are still evolving and will not be released until next year, I don't think one can expect a brand can supply certain features until the standards have been finalized and confirmed..

As you have already seen, since the XR70 is only 1.1 HDMI compliant it was obsolete before it was shipped...
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post #745 of 1899 Old 12-18-2004, 12:09 AM
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I just bought the Rocket ELT 5.1 system (it's on it's way), but i'm not sure which receiver to get. I can really only find the JVC RF10 and Pansonic XR50 in Canada at a decent price, so i'm trying to decide between those two.

Question about the JVC: It's supposed to have really good analog in's, but i think i read that someone mentioned that it's becuase they bypass any processing and go straight to the amps. Would this mean that if i was using Pro Logic II, the analogs wouldn't really be anything special anymore?
Pro Logic II is fairly important to me, because i play a lot of Gamecube.

Question about the Panasonic: How "bright" is "bright"? Would it be unwise to order the Panasonic given the fact that ELT's are supposed to be bright as well?
Ideally, I'd test out the Panasonic and see how it sounds, but i'm not sure if i'll be able to do that. I live in rural Canada and I have no car.
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post #746 of 1899 Old 12-18-2004, 05:22 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by M Code
The latest HDMI standards (1.2) are still evolving and will not be released until next year, I don't think one can expect a brand can supply certain features until the standards have been finalized and confirmed..

As you have already seen, since the XR70 is only 1.1 HDMI compliant it was obsolete before it was shipped...

I understand and I'm not faulting H/K for not releasing a receiver that accommodates HDMI since that wasn't even standardized when they designed the '1005/'2005.

What improvements will HDMI 1.2 have vs. 1.1? Since new receivers typically are released during the middle of the year, hopefully the 3rd gen. digi-amp'ed receivers will have HDMI 1.2 (assuming it's standardized in early 2005).

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post #747 of 1899 Old 12-18-2004, 08:31 PM
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I just received the xr70 and have it hooked up to my Event 20/20 speakers and they sounded very good, much cleaner than my Sony 1000es. This was a much better experience than the xr50 I tried last month but that was with a different dvd player and different speakers so it tough to judge how much they diifer in sound but I wouldn't doubt the units are sensitive to source components. Right now the transparency is quite addictive.
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post #748 of 1899 Old 12-18-2004, 08:40 PM
 
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I don't believe that the Sony ES line are hybrids. They have true digital amps. The DA5000ES is 170 watts per channel times 7 channels and the street price is well under $1K. The DA9000ES is an incredible receiver with 200 watts per channel with a street price under $2K
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post #749 of 1899 Old 12-19-2004, 03:25 PM
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I have the Pio 1014 and xr 50.The 1014 is full featured and the sound is full and rich.The Panasonic is clear and detailed but seems to be lacking depth(richness).I almost believe the term transparent is actually being misused when referred to the xr 50.I think it is actually thin.If you turn off the bass or turn down your bass and crank up the treble most recievers have the same higher sound.You will focus on the edge and highs which make it seem clearer or transparent.The 1014 brings all the speakers and sub together while the xr 50 seems to be missing mids and lows.(yes this has been used for a good number of hours)
I had a few a friends over to judge the set ups and I was the only one liking the xr 50 over the 1014.(At least at first I did,I was prejudiced to the 50)I want to keep the 50 but the reality is the reciever is great but the 1014 is full featured and have an endless number of tweaks to get a great sound.The 1014 rocks the house.
Digital recievers are definitely the future.One of the things that really bothered me was the speaker connections.We all know the shortcomings but it made me feel like this amp will be the weak link in my system.Putting the wires in the spring clips was like a rig and I dont like rigs.So psychologically this was off putting as was the crossover points.Once again it could just be in my head but this seems cheap to me and I am not on a budget.(yes I have the 1014 now until Digi recs get more improvements and features).
I know Dmeister can seem rude but he does show some insight.Would you really want to have expensive speakers only to not fit the wires in the terminals.His thinking is NOT flawwed.Maybe these are undiscovered gems but I would rather pay up when the companies realize they are gems and upgrade them.It will be worth the price.Btw chosing the 1014 over the xr 50 is not a no brainer.
Just so you know where I am coming from.I bought a Panny lcd and thought I loved it but I realized I loved the idea of it and found the picture to lacking blacks and the screen door was all I could focus on.My sony wega was far better.I ended up taking it back and getting a tried and proven panny 53tw54 Crt which is excellent.In no way did I want a Crt but the picture is great.This will tied me over until Dlp's improve.I want the latest ant greatest but only if it is.
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post #750 of 1899 Old 12-19-2004, 04:06 PM
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madmark,

how many hours is on then XR50? What speakers are u using?

I don't agree with the comments (well based on my XR45) that it is missing "lows". The low end is certainly there applenty (certainly more so after extended use) but it is faster and more dynamic (as is the rest of the sound) than the likes of Denon 1602, 3803, 3805, Arcam AVR300, Onkyo SR800, even an Adcom 2ch power amp. (this is what has been compared in the same setup). If anything i think the panny has more in the deep bottom end (Though here it will depend on speakers).
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