List of Digital (Class-D) Home Theater Receivers - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 1899 Old 07-13-2004, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by keenan
mmm.. and this is based on....?

Jim

Simple research at all the audio boards , in any given Pany 45 thread

I have also tried a few different speakers whith the one I have.

Anyone who has followed the threads at audio boards, were better speakers are more common, can read this for themselves though.

I do not beleive that everyone whith great speakers is going to love any Pany,or any other peice of gear... like you said some hear differently then others.

I just wanted to add that I have seen this opinion about speakers and the Pany,in most every decent sized thread on the subject.
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post #62 of 1899 Old 07-13-2004, 07:50 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Tack
[b]I have easy to drive speakers --91db 8 ohm---and couldnt take a week with the panny.Thin sound (to me).
When visiting Best Buy there are almost always open box pannys there for sale. Someone is returning them.
Im not trying to be harsh because I WANTED to like it...its cheap and so am I ---But I believe more people who like it post about it than those who dont...
]

What model of Panny did you try ? Were the speaker sizes setup correctly ? The default is small with which you will not get any bass and probably felt it was thin ? With the XR50 you can also biamp in stereo mode.
It is a pity that you did not give the Panny enough chance. Anyways, you still may not like the sound. It is pretty flat and transparent, without any added flavor or warmth. To me it sounds like real music, even if I am in another room.
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post #63 of 1899 Old 07-13-2004, 10:03 AM
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Man, you guys need to learn how to use the QUOTE feature.

Procrastination is the thief of time.
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They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety.

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The mind gets too empty.

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post #64 of 1899 Old 07-13-2004, 03:00 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Earz
Simple research at all the audio boards , in any given Pany 45 thread

I have also tried a few different speakers whith the one I have.

Anyone who has followed the threads at audio boards, were better speakers are more common, can read this for themselves though.

I do not beleive that everyone whith great speakers is going to love any Pany,or any other peice of gear... like you said some hear differently then others.

I just wanted to add that I have seen this opinion about speakers and the Pany,in most every decent sized thread on the subject.

Good points. Maybe I took the statement out of contex.

<<<<Another common thread is, the people that rave the most about the Panys, have the most revealing speakers, which are also reasonably effecient.>>>

What I was asking about was the assumption that revealing speakers were also reasonably efficient. I am sure some are but to assume that a speaker with one of those traits will also have the other is a stretch I think.

Jim
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post #65 of 1899 Old 07-13-2004, 03:49 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by keenan
Good points. Maybe I took the statement out of contex.

<<<<Another common thread is, the people that rave the most about the Panys, have the most revealing speakers, which are also reasonably effecient.>>>

What I was asking about was the assumption that revealing speakers were also reasonably efficient. I am sure some are but to assume that a speaker with one of those traits will also have the other is a stretch I think.

Jim

Jim, I just meant that the speakers also need to be fairly effecient like my 6 ohm 88 db speakers as opposed to speakers that dip below 4 ohms ect.

Some have had problems driving certain speakers in theater mode whith the Pany.

I have never had a problem driving 6 speakers in the large setting at louder than I can stand levels.

I did have the JVC RX-10 digital hybrid reciver shut down while playing a dd es flick whith the volume at 30 during a dynamic peak.

The volume goes to 50, so its safe to say that I have run into the same problem, only whith the JVC digital and not the Pany 45.

There both rated at 100 x 6 @6 ohm and the JVC does just fine in 2 channel stereo.
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post #66 of 1899 Old 07-14-2004, 12:18 PM
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EARZ
There is a thread about the RX-F10 going on in Audio Circle and from what I gather the are saying it could be better than the Panny45 which I have also.

My speakers have a Nom Imp. of 5ohms and are relatively efficient at approx.85db.
Most people getting into audio at the moment are purchaseing more efficient or moderately efficient speaker's compared to some years ago.

I was surprised to find some driving Maggies with the 45 and I wounder how the JVC does driving such speakers.

Anyway let me know how things are going and if it is the F10 you are using.

Regards,Larry
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post #67 of 1899 Old 07-14-2004, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone compared the RX-F10 to the Panasonic XR50 for home theater use?
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post #68 of 1899 Old 07-14-2004, 12:55 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Earz
This is an initial impression reveiw of the JVC rx-f-10 digital hybrid receiver which uses some form of tri path technology.
Out of the box, it sounds closed in whith a tubey sounding midrange and somewhat distorted sounding highs.

After 45-50 hours it seems to have opened up whith a deeper soundstage then the detailed, forward sounding Pany 45.

It is slightly shorter in depth than the Pany and weighs about double because of its transformer most likely.
It has cheesy spring clips and a way too bright blue light on the front that can be dimmed or shut off via the remote.

This receiver will stun you whith its bass output, and in that aspect, it shines.

As far as the tubey sound, I now know what Bel Canto owners are reffereing to, and some may prefer this sound to the Panys precise mids and highs.

I already ruled this receiver out for HT. as it shut off whith the volume at 30 during LOTR in dd ex mode last night and the volume tops out at 50.
If you have more effeicient speakers than 6 ohm 88 db, you may not have this problem.

The rest of my time whith the JVC rx- f-10 will be for stereo playback only.

It does do sa-cd a bit better than the Panys, but no where near my Sim Audio i-5 for sa-cd.

Most likely, this receiver can be used to bi-amp in all channel stereo mode or one of the other many modes it offers.

The RX-F10 does sound better after 2 days as it seems to open up a bit and the highs seem more detailed (not Pany detailed)
The soundstage is deeper and slightly wider than the closed in. out of the box sonics.

This receiver has digitized analog hi rez inputs as you can actually listen to any analog or digital connection source and use pro logic 2,neo 6 or all channel stereo ect, and you can also use the selectable eq settings in any mode.

One feature this digital hybrid receiver has that most lack,is the ability to adjust all channels levels.

I did watch a few more movies whith it and it has not shut down again so far, but I have been keeping the volume down whenever I know a big dynamic swing is coming.

After being used to the Panys extreme detail from movie soundtracks, I beleive I am wanting to turn the JVC up as to hear more of the detail I was used to, so when the dynamic peaks happen, it is too loud, and this is where my biggest concern using the JVC for HT in my systym comes from.

On the positive side, the JVC rx f10 does the bass and lower mids whith more gusto and presence for H/T and music.

If you have heard a Panny receiver and found it to lean or bright sounding, then the JVC rx f10 will probably be your ticket among the cheap digital wonders.
If you listen to a lot of bright sounding movie soundtracks, and find the mids and highs to be overdone, the JVC is probably for you, whith the added bonus of more defined lower mids that sound tubey, and major bass output.

If these two receivers positives could be combined,we could have our cake and eat it too imo.
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post #69 of 1899 Old 07-14-2004, 01:13 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by ABEX
EARZ
There is a thread about the RX-F10 going on in Audio Circle and from what I gather the are saying it could be better than the Panny45 which I have also.

My speakers have a Nom Imp. of 5ohms and are relatively efficient at approx.85db.
Most people getting into audio at the moment are purchaseing more efficient or moderately efficient speaker's compared to some years ago.

I was surprised to find some driving Maggies with the 45 and I wounder how the JVC does driving such speakers.

Anyway let me know how things are going and if it is the F10 you are using.

Regards,Larry

Larry, the 45 still has the precise upper mids and highs, and the JVC f-10 (the one I have) is better in the lower mids (tubey) and bass output imo.

I don't beleive you would have a problem using the JVC in stereo mode whith your speakers.
HT mode whith movies like LOTR in DD ex mode could be another story.

The Pany definitly has more steam in HT mode, but it does not have the tubey lower mids and bass output of the JVC RX-F10.

They are completely different flavors....so to speak, and both worth checking out imo.

Greg
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post #70 of 1899 Old 07-14-2004, 05:42 PM
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OK Greg

Thx!
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post #71 of 1899 Old 07-15-2004, 04:36 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Earz

This receiver has digitized analog hi rez inputs as you can actually listen to any analog or digital connection source and use pro logic 2,neo 6 or all channel stereo ect, and you can also use the selectable eq settings in any mode.


Thats interesting, does it perform bass management on the 6 ch analog input?
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post #72 of 1899 Old 07-15-2004, 05:47 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Dickster
Thats interesting, does it perform bass management on the 6 ch analog input?


In dvd multi mode there are no ss modes or dsp modes available, and no bass management either, as far as reading the manual.

In other modes, you can select analog and control bass,eq,levels dsp modes while playing a dsd layer only sa-cd in 2 channel.
I have not tried using the 5.1 dvd multi yet.
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post #73 of 1899 Old 07-15-2004, 03:14 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Earz
Larry, the 45 still has the precise upper mids and highs, and the JVC f-10 (the one I have) is better in the lower mids (tubey) and bass output imo.

I don't beleive you would have a problem using the JVC in stereo mode whith your speakers.
HT mode whith movies like LOTR in DD ex mode could be another story.

The Pany definitly has more steam in HT mode, but it does not have the tubey lower mids and bass output of the JVC RX-F10.

They are completely different flavors....so to speak, and both worth checking out imo.

Greg

The reason the JVC F10 has a more tube-like sound is that it has very high IM distortion.. In fact, according to Tripath's own data sheets their IM spec is 3 times higher than the THD spec. The IM distortion will be very audible as they are made up of odd harmonics. So yes it will sound very different due to this significant coloration. From a quality audio specification viewpoint, the IM distortion should be equal or less than the THD % specification.
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post #74 of 1899 Old 07-15-2004, 04:24 PM
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Originally posted by M Code
The reason the JVC F10 has a more tube-like sound is that it has very high IM distortion.. In fact, according to Tripath's own data sheets their IM spec is 3 times higher than the THD spec. The IM distortion will be very audible as they are made up of odd harmonics. So yes it will sound very different due to this significant coloration. From a quality audio specification viewpoint, the IM distortion should be equal or less than the THD % specification.

I can buy that, but do you have any info as to whether there is actual tri-path tech built into the JVC'S or is it just a propietary version of JVC'S own making?

No one seems to have any actual info on this.....just speculation.

I agree whith the JVC being very colored, which is a good thing when playing less than pristine recordings, as it covers the flaws.

The Panny on the other hand is so accurate that people even whith some very hi end gear, are not used to this accuracy, and call it bright, tinney, thin ect, when what there really hearing is there source and/or less than perfect recordings imo.

My B&K receiver was colored as was both my H/K recievers, my Parasound halo c2 was somewhat colored through the digital in but not the analog in..
My Sim Audio i-5 is colored, my Electrocompanient amps were colored, my Legacy hi current 250 x 5 amp was colored,my old Onkyo receiver was colored, my Hafler pre and amp was colored ect ect..

Almost everything can be considered to have colored sound, but tubey sounding gear or actual tube amps always sound colored imo.

There are going to be people who much prefer one over the other, but I happen to like certain things about both.

Now if only my Kenwood 7100 would show up, so I can try all three digital cheapo wonders in the same set up.
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post #75 of 1899 Old 07-16-2004, 11:59 AM
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Earz, are you going to post your opinion on the Kenwood 7100 on this thread?

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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post #76 of 1899 Old 07-16-2004, 02:55 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Alex solomon
Earz, are you going to post your opinion on the Kenwood 7100 on this thread?

Yes, but I don't have one yet, and I probably will not have one until next week.
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post #77 of 1899 Old 07-17-2004, 07:05 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by M Code
The reason the JVC F10 has a more tube-like sound is that it has very high IM distortion.. In fact, according to Tripath's own data sheets their IM spec is 3 times higher than the THD spec. The IM distortion will be very audible as they are made up of odd harmonics. So yes it will sound very different due to this significant coloration. From a quality audio specification viewpoint, the IM distortion should be equal or less than the THD % specification.

DIGITAL TECHNOLOGY MAKES NEGATIVE FEEDBACK OBSOLETE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Could it be that what you are hearing is the difference between the use of negative feedback and (for the first time) NO negative feedback in an amplifier design? The Panasonic does not use negative feedback and the JVC does. (I'm surprised that you guys could not relate the evidence).

Negative feedback acts in a similar but in the continuous analog domain. The about to be amplified sound is based upon the previous just amplified sound.

Negative feedback should be thought of as just that - negative. This 'necessary evil' circuit topology has had a detrimental effect on sound quality. In just every audio product ever sold, until now. This is the major finding which TI's digital amplifier technology has revealed.

Once audiophile/purists understand this, they will all be demanding the technology. This is the start of a revolution in sound reproduction.
Now that you have heard these revelations you may claim it as your own in future posts. I do note that user Temp101 had it correct in his review of the Panasonic 50.

As a related topic, if one really thinks about negative feedback, this is why SACD sounds smoother but also weaker too. This is because the current sample is weighted/related to previous samples. Again feedback is the culprit.

The term NEGATIVE FEEDBACK is in fact perfectly descriptive of the damage (it inflicts) for both recording and playback. Digital technology makes negative feedback obsolete. Amen.
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post #78 of 1899 Old 07-17-2004, 10:23 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by reincarnate
DIGITAL TECHNOLOGY MAKES NEGATIVE FEEDBACK OBSOLETE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Could it be that what you are hearing is the difference between the use of negative feedback and (for the first time) NO negative feedback in an amplifier design? The Panasonic does not use negative feedback and the JVC does. (I'm surprised that you guys could not relate the evidence).

Negative feedback acts in a similar but in the continuous analog domain. The about to be amplified sound is based upon the previous just amplified sound.

Negative feedback should be thought of as just that - negative. This 'necessary evil' circuit topology has had a detrimental effect on sound quality. In just every audio product ever sold, until now. This is the major finding which TI's digital amplifier technology has revealed.

Once audiophile/purists understand this, they will all be demanding the technology. This is the start of a revolution in sound reproduction.
Now that you have heard these revelations you may claim it as your own in future posts. I do note that user Temp101 had it correct in his review of the Panasonic 50.

As a related topic, if one really thinks about negative feedback, this is why SACD sounds smoother but also weaker too. This is because the current sample is weighted/related to previous samples. Again feedback is the culprit.

The term NEGATIVE FEEDBACK is in fact perfectly descriptive of the damage (it inflicts) for both recording and playback. Digital technology makes negative feedback obsolete. Amen.

Well kinda rite...
Negative feedback can cause problems especially if too much (can cause TIM distortion) however one needs to note what type of input circuit the digital amplifier has... analog or digital note for example the B&O original Ice Power had analog and many thought this sounded pretty good. Regarding the TI Equabit this was developed by a Danish company (Tocada) that TI purchased 3 years ago, however its engineers were originally from Harman.

As we move forward.. one will find more and more digital amplifiers and YES they will continue to raise the bar both for sonics and power output. As the processor/modulator apply more resources the switching frequency will be increased pushing out its bandwidth and resolution. In fact today some of the newest designs, (target production in mid/late 2005) already measure significantly better than the best analog designs using high resolution test gear like Audio Precision System 2 Cascade but..
do these betters specs equate to a better sounding system.. I am sure more of the technical gurus will comment further for the sonic quality in the upcoming months...
It should prove very very interesting..
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post #79 of 1899 Old 07-17-2004, 10:49 PM
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The fact that the Panys use no negative feedback is common knowledge for anyone that has done any reading on the Panys.

Is this the reason it sounds better to me....yes,it is one of them, but it is also the reason that people who find the Pany's lean, bright ect do not like the sound.
They are not used to accuracy imo.

The other reason the Pany sounds better in the upper mids and highs is its direct digital to the binding posts whith no d/a conversion or processing.
I am using a highly modified for digital as well as analog Philips 963sa.

The reason for the Panys sound is two fold, and not just because the lack of negative feedback imo.

As far as H/K engineering this tech, after listening to the 2005, they screwed up not using this tech in there own amps imo and instead use some sort of a hybrid design which they fail to describe in the marketing info.

Some people like to talk about why/how a given peice of gear sounds based on tech, but the real world uses there ears.

Now, you can take that quote and use it as your own.
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post #80 of 1899 Old 07-18-2004, 09:32 AM
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Quote by: Earz
Quote:


As far as H/K engineering this tech, after listening to the 2005, they screwed up not using this tech in there own amps imo and instead use some sort of a hybrid design which they fail to describe in the marketing info.

Hybrid design, Well put.

I am really enjoying the sound quality of the Kenwood which I think is very similar to Pannys in its design. The more hours I put on this the better it sounds .

I do think the Pannys have the edge with features and build quality so I will most likely switch over to the XR70 when it ships.

By the way, it seams we've been talking about the XR70 forever. When is this due to ship?
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post #81 of 1899 Old 07-18-2004, 09:43 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Quote by: Earz


Hybrid design, Well put.

I am really enjoying the sound quality of the Kenwood which I think is very similar to Pannys in its design. The more hours I put on this the better it sounds .

I do think the Pannys have the edge with features and build quality so I will most likely switch over to the XR70 when it ships.

By the way, it seams we've been talking about the XR70 forever. When is this due to ship?

The press release said the Panasonic SA-XR70 should be out by August 2004. But after calling up J&R (and a couple others called Panasonic), October 2004 seems like a more realistic shipping date.

Procrastination is the thief of time.
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temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety.

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You shouldn't mix meditation with management.
The mind gets too empty.

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post #82 of 1899 Old 07-18-2004, 10:04 AM
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Alan, I was hoping you would try one of the Sony strd 9000 es receivers out, and let us hear at least one opinion on one of those beasts.

I still can't find a reveiw of one, whether proffesional or personal

I have seen them for as little as **** + shipping whith a 10 day return policy, but yet no reveiws.

I wouldn't mind hearing a reveiw of the 5000 model either whith 170 x 7.

Anyone have any info on personal or professional reveiws on either?
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post #83 of 1899 Old 07-19-2004, 01:07 PM
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I received a HK AVR 330 as a gift. It is new. I figure I could sell this for around $400.00. Should I sell this and get the Kenwood 7100? My speakers are not that efficient (6 ohms, 86db all around). I don't care for features I want sonic. Sound quality is what I am after. Earz, Allen et al. any suggestion would be appreciated.

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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post #84 of 1899 Old 07-20-2004, 07:31 AM
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Alex get a digital....wait for the Panasonic SA-XR70.



Quote:


Alan, I was hoping you would try one of the Sony strd 9000 es

Earz

I should have one in a weeks time. My ES dealer friend gets back from Vacation this week and I will place my order.
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post #85 of 1899 Old 07-20-2004, 08:16 AM
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Does Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Onkyo and others have a digital receiver in the their pipeline that are to be released soon, say before the end of the year?

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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post #86 of 1899 Old 07-20-2004, 09:39 AM
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I hope there are some in-depth reviews done by quality magazines and audio Web sites between Kenwood VRS-7100 and Panasonic SA-XR70 once the latter receiver is released.

Procrastination is the thief of time.
-- Edward Young

They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety.

-- Benjamin Franklin

You shouldn't mix meditation with management.
The mind gets too empty.

-- Scott Adams, "Dilbert"
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post #87 of 1899 Old 07-20-2004, 09:48 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by beowulf7
I hope there are some in-depth reviews done by quality magazines and audio Web sites between Kenwood VRS-7100 and Panasonic SA-XR70 once the latter receiver is released.

If they(Rags) ever reveiw one of the lightweight digital receivers, do you really think there going to give there honest opinion whith the higher priced competition paying there bills......IMO it will never happen.

You either try them for yourself or go by word of mouth on these digital wonders. as these will never get a fair reveiw in ANY rag.
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post #88 of 1899 Old 07-20-2004, 10:38 AM
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In an attempt to avoid what my wife would like me to do(cutting the grass and painting the bathroom) I managed to avoid those things by bi amping my speakers using both the Pany 45 and the JVC RX-10 on both highs and lows of my monitors, which only go to 45 hz.

After hearing both seperate,it seemed that the JVC had more bass output, not better quality, just more.

While bi amping whith both, it was clear that the Pany 45 had tighter,cleaner, faster and more authoritative bass than the JVC RX-10.
It was not even close.

The JVC seemed easier to integrate the highs to the Panys lows, but I prefer both by themselves, whith the exception of the Panys bass in bi amped mode.

I mainly did this to see if two of these digital wonders could be used in two or multi channel H/T mode bi amped.

The answer is yes, if you have two digital outputs on your source, only I reccomend using the same brand of receiver to avoid the pita it is to attempt to match two different brands levels.

Guess its time I cut the grass
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post #89 of 1899 Old 07-20-2004, 11:12 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Alex solomon
Does Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Onkyo and others have a digital receiver in the their pipeline that are to be released soon, say before the end of the year?

Yamaha has the RX-SL100 which is available in the rest of the world outside of N. America. According to a press release I read a while back, it was supposed to be released in the US by now (May, I think).

Denon has the AVR-770SD which has also been selling in the rest of the world for several months now. DenonJeff informed me in March that Denon has no plans to release this receiver in N. America. If you are willing to pay a bit of a premium, you can order the Japanese version from audiocubes.com . They will include a free power transformer to allow use with 115V AC.
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post #90 of 1899 Old 07-20-2004, 11:31 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Rimbaud

Denon has the AVR-770SD which has also been selling in the rest of the world for several months now. DenonJeff informed me in March that Denon has no plans to release this receiver in N. America. If you are willing to pay a bit of a premium, you can order the Japanese version from audiocubes.com . They will include a free power transformer to allow use with 115V AC.

Thanks for the info, Rimbaud. But I rather not use a transformer. I will wait and see what the Panny XR70 has to offer.

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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