List of Digital (Class-D) Home Theater Receivers - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 1899 Old 03-13-2005, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by phobia
Can someone recommend a sub-$800 receiver with digital amp and (HD) video upconversion?

The Onkyo LR-552 is all-digital and upconverts all video inputs to s-video and component. However, I can't really recommend it as it definitely lacks in power compared to the Panny's and does not have the same transparent sound quality.
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post #992 of 1899 Old 03-13-2005, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jswallac
How about a hybrid digital amp? The new line from JVC is about to come out with quite a few more features than the current models. The folks over at AudioCircle rave about the sound of these "little wonders," with some replacing their expensive tube amps with the JVCs.
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4026166

This is the next to bottom of the line.

I've been in the market for an upgrade over my yamaha vr995. Currently I am using it's analog inputs, in conjunction with another 2 channel receiver, in a 7.1 setup (theatertek and revo 7.1) I love the 7.1 sound, and the fact that the JVC is a 7.1 amp, interests me. I'm also looking at the pioneer 1014, as it is a highly regarded 7.1 amp, in my price range. But the "digital" sound you guys are raving about has me curious...

Also curious about the JVC's Center channel alignment feature. It is supposed to help lock the center channel sound to the "center" of the screen, for those of us who have their CC's above the screen. I'm REALLY interested in this feature. And curious how it sounds. And how large the sweet spot for this would be.

tonygeno, you appear to have know more about these new JVCs than what is in the press release (knowledge of fan and it's noise) can you shed some light on the new JVCs (a link would be great!)

Thanks

Enjoy the show!


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post #993 of 1899 Old 03-13-2005, 09:04 AM
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Here is the actual press release from JVC that introduces these new receivers: http://www.jvc.com/press/index.jsp?item=437&pageID=1 They are not out yet, so I doubt anybody can tell you much more about them. We are all hoping that JVC did not do anything to diminish the sound quality. The concern is how many more features are present (more channels, USB, etc.) for considerably less money than the F10. I own the RX-ES1SL. It replaced a Sophia Electric El34 tube-based amp in my 2 channel setup. The sound is very tube-like, at least to my ears. Much more so than the Panny, which is closer to solid state, again with my ears. With regard to fan noise, yes it is present. No, it does not create a problem for me. I need to be pretty close to it, and without music playing, to really notice it much. I believe it is actually quieter than the fan on my Sony Grand Wega TV. It is a LOT quieter than the fan on my Motorola HD cable box. BTW, the prices listed in the JVC press release are MSRP. JandR prices are a lot lower.
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post #994 of 1899 Old 03-13-2005, 05:08 PM
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The JVC's convert the digital inputs to analog before amplification. So you need to feed it a good analog input. This requires atleast a good player or DAC for fine music reproduction. So the JVC makes more sense to people who already have a good DAC or CD player. It also is attractive to people who have speakers which are little bit more difficult to drive.
The Panasonics save you the cost of a DAC and no fan noise. But they are picky about speakers they like to drive. If people are buying new speakers or if theirs are satellite speakers, then the Panny is a much better buy.
I am really not sure about the 'tube' like or 'solid-state' sound difference. I find the Panny's can be easily smoothed out by connecting them to a power conditioner, but to some extent it also reins in the dynamics. I am not sure how the JVC is in the dynamics dept. The Panny is very good at this.
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post #995 of 1899 Old 03-13-2005, 07:22 PM
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The general consensus seems to be as you state, the Panny is best with digital in and the JVC is best with analog in. I owned the Panny XR45 (I recall it had a fan, but I could be wrong). I much prefer the JVC for music, but I am feeding it with an Ack! Dack. The Panny does have the advantage that it runs a bit cooler, so if you need to place it in a cabinet it will not be a problem with poor ventilation. Either is an incredible value that can do double duty with 2 channel or HT. These digital/Hybrid digital amps are truly the future of our hobby for awhile.
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post #996 of 1899 Old 03-13-2005, 08:00 PM
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Thanks jswallac, those new JVCs sound great for my needs. The 700 series' HDMI upconvert is particularly attractive, but I think I'll wait for some first hand reviews before I trust that.

Isn't it strange that the press release specifies the 3xx and 7xx will upconvert, but not the 4xx?
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post #997 of 1899 Old 03-13-2005, 08:34 PM
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Thanks for the info guys. Sucks that the JVC doesn't handle digital sources well. If I get a new receiver, then ALL of my sources will be digital Too bad the Panny is just 6.1 Looks like I won't be getting in on the digital amplification boom just yet. Oh well, the Pioneer 1014 seems like a very nice consulation prize

Enjoy the show!


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post #998 of 1899 Old 03-14-2005, 05:25 PM
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Panasonic XR70 Review
------------------------------
Previously I bought the Panasonic XR50 receiver and auditioned the receiver it in my main system. While showing promise in level of detail, I returned the unit. This second time around, I've learned from my mistakes and installed it in my secondary receiver based system with its higher 8 ohm impedance speakers and smaller (12*18) room. The point here is the Panasonic XR70, while a better sounding product (especially when mated with the S97 Dvd player) must be carefully matched to provide the performance of which it is capable. Don't use this receiver with low impedance speakers!

Simplicity For The Consumer
--------------------------------
The Panasonic combination is easy to set up and use especially from the remotes. This is a welcome change from the typical nightmare of deep, buried and complicated settings from the makers of traditional receivers. After initial setup, just press one button usually. See the attached picture. Add to this substantial space savings and energy efficiency. Digital power amplifiers should not be judged by their (lack of) weight.

Power Conditioning
------------------------
This all digital receiver power condition requirement is rather different than traditional (partial) analog receivers. The fact is it is easier to optimize either an all digital or all analog component. The age of the analog and digital mix is ending. After weeks of experimentation, I concluded that the high current outputs on my two Monster Power conditioners did not sound as good as their TV/Monitor output. Go figure! The best match I found was the Tripp-Lite LC2400:
http://www.tripplite.com/products/pr...productID=2845

This unit powers both the Dvd player and the receiver rather superb. Basically, if your sound quality is to bright then add more conditioning or switch to a different type. If the sound quality is dull and bass heavy then too much conditioning has been applied (as one gets with stage 4, 5 and 6 levels of conditioning). To much conditioning is just a bad as to little.

Sound Quality
-----------------
The sound quality is hugely three dimensional at all frequencies with no irritation whatsoever. It is so articulate that analog amplifiers (with their resolution reducing and soft sounding negative feedback) find it hard to compete. Bass in my 12*18 room is tight, deep, punchy, and articulate with first rate rhythm and pace. I use the top Boston Acoustics VR-M90 speakers: http://www.bostonacoustics.com/hs_pr...&CategoryID=38

I've heard new sounds. This increased resolution a bankable improvement. All frequencies have top notch detail and purity, while not being the least bit edgy. Indeed this overachieving system has progressed so far, that its performance is close (better in some ways?) to that of the expensive separates of my main system. And yes, I do own Krell. For those who are offended, I apologize that a complete $600 front end system can leap-frog so far ahead. Sorry but true!

Update: to hear the best sound-staging use FULL range speakers with no separate bass amplifiers. And don't use a mono subwoofer except for movies. Otherwise you will loose the precise focus and placement such as when a bass drum is whacked.

I thought the HDMI audio sound quality is really superb as I listened to both regular CD audio upsampled to 176KHz and DVD-Audio at 96Hz as set in the Dvd player. It is also possible to set the remaster to 88.2 Khz at the receiver. One can hear a cushion of air around classical instruments - if the system setup is perfect. Finally after 30 plus years my analog Opus3 Depth of Image CD has been bested by a 24 bit 48Kz DVD-audio of Shostakovich Jazz Suites Nos.1 and 2 on Naxos. I hate to sound like a broken record, but the promise of early of digital (perfect sound forever) is finally being fulfilled.

Soundtracks such as the new Fifth Element Dvd have better sound quality and imaging than they have any right too. The extended encompassing envelope is quite convincing. Matching/voicing all speakers is still very important. BTW, I uninstalled the two BACK surround speakers from my main system because I could never get the FRONT channel voices from sounding heavy. The Dolby IIx curse. What is the point here? The fact is that Dolby 7.1 IIx setup will actually degrade the sound quality in many systems. Panasonic should be congratulated for stopping at 6.1 channels, that is until Dolby can figure out their mess.

Remaster or Digital Upsampling
-------------------------------
In the past I've tried upsampling circuits from Pioneer, Denon and Berhinger. I never cared for any of them. They softened the bass and made the treble just brighter and like spit. Same goes for dither or noise shaping too. All were simply marketing hype. So it was a huge surprise that the Panasonic Remaster 1 (level set to -2 ) improved the sound quality. Finally someone has succeeded in adding beneficial overtones to the music.


Analog Limitations
-----------------------
A huge benefit of all digital processing and amplifiers is their much greater immunity to external and internal noise/RFI/EMI distortion. Analog circuitry is completely susceptible to any level of interference. For example, say the 2.4GHz carrier frequency of your wireless computer network enters into the analog circuitry through one of the many antennas (I mean cables) connected to your system. That is just one common prescription for degraded analog based sound quality. This Panasonic combination rejects the common high levels of digital noise (even self induced) with its all digital circuitry. Again, in the right system this tour-de-force $330 receiver sonically outperforms most any analog equipment (within 10 times its price) under real-world conditions.

Bottom line: only digital signals can fight interference effectively. The result is that our battle weary ears can finally seek relief in an exponentially increasing all digital world. Analog is dead.

HDMI Interface
-------------------
Say goodbye to six expensive analog, one coaxial and three component video cables. Just use the superior performing and included HDMI cable. Version 1.1 of the HDMI specifies that hi resolution multi-channel audio can also be transmitted. While curious to see what the HDMI jitter measurements are, it is not at all necessary given the extreme resolution and purity noticed. Remember this statement in the coming years, once the established reviewers finally hear these improvements too. No more need for tubes, phonographs records even noisy SACD. Congratulations Panasonic!

Limitations
- No hearing damage levels allowed
- No low impedance or low efficiency speakers
- For use with small to medium rooms
- I don't know how the Panasonic will sound with extremely revealing speakers such as the Gallo Reference 3.
- This inexpensive system still requires excellent power conditioning. However, you mileage may vary as I do live in a metropolitan area with known high levels of interference.
- Keep the two units separated by 6 inches.
- Panasonic Marketing

XR70 with DVD-97 Player
---------------------------
The XR97 DVD player is a high performance unit which also requires careful system matching, even after Panasonic has improved the unit with firmware upgrades. To maximize the picture quality, use the single HDMI connection. I connect my display's 1280*720p 1:1 mapping DVI input to the XR70s HDMI output port. Use the DVD player's picture adjustment controls to keep the displays controls in their neutral position. If your display has non-defeatable digital picture enhancement or scaling, then install the 540 firmware. Hopefully few will experience the ugly Genesis DSP based macroblocking effect.
LL
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post #999 of 1899 Old 03-14-2005, 05:50 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by rogo
What?

The vast majority of goods at Fry's are at or below list price. In fact, I've never seen anything there over list price. So you've spotted a single pricing anomaly and intend to justify the obviously despicable behavior outlined above because of it.

What's being done is wrong by three fake, non-buyers is wrong. Period.

I've owned the Panasonic XR70 for three weeks and the Dvd97 for a month. Please quit assuming as we both know what happens when you do that!

P.S. See my obvious "fake non-buyer" in-depth review above.
P.S.S. I did not buy my Asus SLI motherboard from Fry's either as the list price is $199 and they were selling it for $249!



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post #1000 of 1899 Old 03-14-2005, 10:01 PM
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I have some questions about the Panasonic XR70

1) does it have an audio delay feature to fix lip-synch issues? (If I were to use the Panasonic DVD97 to up-scale, would this be an issue?)

2) does it do any upscaling? Do I need to hook up each kind of video connection (HDMI, component, s-video) to my TV to match each of my inputs?

3) if I get the Panasonic DVD97 and connect using HDMI, I would still need to connect a digital audio cable between the DVD player and XR70 to get 5.1? That is, the HDMI only carries stereo?

4) on the OneCall web site they write
"Please Note: Incompatible with Samsung DVDHD941 Progressive Scan DVD Player. Panasonic SAXR70 does not pass audio through the HDMI output"
what does this mean? If I were to connect the Pannasonic DVD97 through the XR70 to my TV using HDMI, wouldn't I get stereo audio? Where's the problem with the Samsung DVD player and the XR70?

Thanks for the help! Sorry if these questions have been answered elsewhere - I did spend some time searching...
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post #1001 of 1899 Old 03-14-2005, 11:10 PM
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jensph,

Quote:


1) does it have an audio delay feature to fix lip-synch issues? (If I were to use the Panasonic DVD97 to up-scale, would this be an issue?)

-->The receiver does not have a delay, but you should not have lip-sync issues up-scaling with the S97. However, your S97 does have an audio delay if you feel the need to use one.


Quote:


2) does it do any upscaling? Do I need to hook up each kind of video connection (HDMI, component, s-video) to my TV to match each of my inputs?

-->No - the receiver does not up-scale...you will need to match outputs to inputs.


Quote:


3) if I get the Panasonic DVD97 and connect using HDMI, I would still need to connect a digital audio cable between the DVD player and XR70 to get 5.1? That is, the HDMI only carries stereo?

-->No - HDMI carries 5.1 audio. If your TV accepts HDMI, you can use one HDMI cable from your S97 to your receiver, and one from your receiver to your TV...that's it.


Quote:


4) on the OneCall web site they write
"Please Note: Incompatible with Samsung DVDHD941 Progressive Scan DVD Player. Panasonic SAXR70 does not pass audio through the HDMI output"
what does this mean? If I were to connect the Pannasonic DVD97 through the XR70 to my TV using HDMI, wouldn't I get stereo audio? Where's the problem with the Samsung DVD player and the XR70?

-->I don't know what the issue with the Samsung is. As for not passing audio, they mean if you run HDMI from your receiver to your TV, it will only carry a video signal - no audio.

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post #1002 of 1899 Old 03-14-2005, 11:58 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by reincarnate
I've owned the Panasonic XR70 for three weeks and the Dvd97 for a month. Please quit assuming as we both know what happens when you do that!

P.S. See my obvious "fake non-buyer" in-depth review above.
P.S.S. I did not buy my Asus SLI motherboard from Fry's either as the list price is $199 and they were selling it for $249!



Smiling Irish Eyes

If you are not using Fry's as your personal rental shop, it should be obvious that I have no beef with you.

If you are doing that -- and or defending it -- you are confusing having bought the product somewhere else with ethics. And they are about as related as bananas and Toyotas.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #1003 of 1899 Old 03-15-2005, 07:35 AM
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Hi there, I have a question surrounding 4 Ohm loads and the Panasonic XR series of amplifiers. I'm really just looking for a 2 channel amp, but I've heard such great things about these amps I'd like to try it out. However, I own Jamo Concert 8 speakers which are 4 Ohm @ 91 dB sensitivity. What's the deal with this amp and 4 ohm loads? I understand that you can run it in bi-amped mode, where the surround channel amps will be used drive the front speakers, but does sound quality drop off with 4 ohm loads?

My listening room is not huge (14x 11) and I don't generally listen at high volumes, I just don't want to waste my time going out and buying the amp to have to return it because my expensive speakers hurt the sound quality (How's that for ironic, my wife would LOVE to hear that!).

Thanks!
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post #1004 of 1899 Old 03-15-2005, 08:03 AM
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Reincarnate,enjoyed your report on the pannys but i have a remastering question.I own the panny xr50 and have four remaster settings and the one you mentioned is labelled for rock music.I cant find a way of changing a level on this remaster.You stated that you selected remaster 1 set at level -2.Maybe this is a new function of the xr70 because I have no change ability.You have four music remaster choices and an off setting.
I want to try your remaster1 with-2 level setting so could you explain how you did it? thanks Matt

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post #1005 of 1899 Old 03-15-2005, 08:39 AM
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avmem,

thanks for the answers!

My HK 210's audio circuit fried a couple weeks ago - at first I was upset - but now I see that this was a great opportunity to renew. I'm thinkingthe XR70 is the way to go. I might just stop in at J&R on the way home tonight.
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post #1006 of 1899 Old 03-17-2005, 02:16 PM
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Is panny going to be shipping out any more XR50s or has production been cancelled on this model? I seem to be finding conflicting information on this.

David
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post #1007 of 1899 Old 03-20-2005, 06:18 PM
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reincarnate,
good to see you back, especially with a nice report on the XR70.
Do you still have the Furman Power Factor Pro ? After quite a bit of tweaks, I feel, my XR50 runs fine without any power conditioning. But I do have the Furman Power Factor Pro connected in parallel, which seems to add more power or 'oomph' to the sound. Looks like the main thing that is affecting the Panny, next to the impedence of the speakers, is the jitter in the digital input. After adding a Zu Ash digital cable, I got little bit more clarity and focus.
Now, I am wondering whether I should upgraded to the XR70.
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post #1008 of 1899 Old 03-21-2005, 10:25 AM
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Does anyone have info on the coming Emotiva "Digital Media Receiver DMR-1"? Looks like it will be paritally based on the DMC-1 pre-amp; which has i-link and DD IIx.

http://www.**********/aout_news.php

Alex
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post #1009 of 1899 Old 03-21-2005, 12:06 PM
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Does it have a digital amplifier?

(Note: Digital audio processing such as Dolby Digital, DTS, etc., is not what this thread is about. The thread title is a bit misleading, but the first post makes the topic a bit clearer.)

BTW, your link is malformed.

Regards,
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post #1010 of 1899 Old 03-21-2005, 12:27 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by JnC
Does it have a digital amplifier?

(Note: Digital audio processing such as Dolby Digital, DTS, etc., is not what this thread is about. The thread title is a bit misleading, but the first post makes the topic a bit clearer.) BTW, your link is malformed.

JnC,

Sorry. I guess the AV123 site doesn't like direct links to their "news" area; here is the relevant blurp:

"Take the core from the DMC-1 processor and add the super D2Audio digital amps at 150w x 7 channels and you have the new Emotiva DMR-1! More info will be posted as it's available."

So yes it looks like it will have digital amps in a seven channel configuration. I also think the DRM-1, being based on the DCM-1, has pretty much everything except for THX, and the newer, unfinalized, DD & DTS HD algorithms.

I was hoping someone would relate any development on this unit. I haven't seen anything on digital room correction though, which I would like as feature on my next pre/pro.

Alex
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post #1011 of 1899 Old 03-21-2005, 01:37 PM
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Sounds very interesting. I hope the pricing will be more affordable compared to the $3000 DMC-1.
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post #1012 of 1899 Old 03-21-2005, 04:36 PM
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test results for the XR70 are up on sound and vision. Pretty good numbers. But note comment that XR70 did not perform to spec on 4 ohm loads.

read here:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/ass...SA-XR70lab.pdf


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post #1013 of 1899 Old 03-22-2005, 06:39 AM
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anyone interested in the ex500....

here are some pics..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...1/DSC01441.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...1/DSC01442.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...1/DSC01443.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...1/DSC01444.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...1/DSC01445.jpg


im burning it in..but so far it sounds good...not night and day from my old receiver....so far i hear minute details....but sounds a little "thin"...maybe the bass is not there yet...i still have to play around and tweak it a bit...not sure how long a break in tiime this needs...but ill post if i hear/notice any differences...

the only complaint is lack of inputs, (5 only) and no component, and no banana plugs for speaker input

fociz...maybe you can answer...im unable to get the s-vid working..both the input and monitor out...any thoughts? i
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post #1014 of 1899 Old 03-22-2005, 06:46 AM
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by the way...ex500 has mcacc...setup was a breeze....
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post #1015 of 1899 Old 03-22-2005, 04:42 PM
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Guys I posted this in the speaker section but it also applies here. I have a JVC RX-F10 and am running Primus 150s with a Dayton 10" sub. The sounds is coming from a digital coax connection on my DVD player.

The sound is very harsh. It just seems the highs are too pronounced and tinny, especially when the volume is high. Any suggestions?
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post #1016 of 1899 Old 03-22-2005, 07:16 PM
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Rogo,

I agree with you in abstract principle only.

In reality though Fry's in particular DESERVES to get screwed by its customers because that's exactly what it does to them at every opportunity. They specialize in advertising sales of things of which they have exactly two in stock in order to get people in the door, they DO very often gouge customers at ABOVE list prices, they advertise lots of rebates they don't honor, they are known to sell refurbished goods that are repackaged and repriced as brand new---ethically, Fry's is kind of like the Bose/Microsoft of mass electronics retail.

And don't worry, for every Internet-price-saavy shopper who uses Frys as a personal rental shop you can bank that there are at least 10-20 clueless lemmings who eat up all their big full-color newspaper adverts and go in there to get ripped off and/or sold garbage all the while thinking that they're getting awesome deals. Sheesh, I've seen "sale" items at Fry's that cost more than regular priced items at places like Best Buy!

Let me say though I would NOT do this "try and buy" stuff on a small mom-and-pop shop of any kind, or any place that doesn't pull the kind of shenanigans Fry's does as part of their overall business strategy. (For example, Costco or J&R Music World.) However Fry's makes Best Buy and Circuit City look like charitable organizations, in comparison. Hell, they even make Walmart look ethical.

In conclusion, if we lived in a perfect world where the sellers treated the consumers ethically, consumers would have reason to not abuse liberal return policies. As you well know we do not.

So if you want to give away pirated Microsoft software to your friends and family I'd say more power to you.
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post #1017 of 1899 Old 03-22-2005, 07:19 PM
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Caser,

My first instinct would be to replace the 150s. But first try hooking up the DVD player using an analog connection, I've read that the JVCs actually sound better with analog, unlike the Pannys.
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post #1018 of 1899 Old 03-22-2005, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by edster922
Caser,

My first instinct would be to replace the 150s. But first try hooking up the DVD player using an analog connection, I've read that the JVCs actually sound better with analog, unlike the Pannys.

Well I actually just ordered some JBL E80s tonight. Hopefully those will sound good. I'm going to move the 150s to surround duty. I'll try out the analog connection. Thanks!
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post #1019 of 1899 Old 03-23-2005, 05:26 AM
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150s to e80s is a big move up...let us know how you like them! I was also considering the JBL e80s-100s a few months ago so I'm doubly curious.
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post #1020 of 1899 Old 03-23-2005, 05:41 AM
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Yeah I'm really looking forward to the E80s. Now my only problem is if I really like them I'm probably going to end up swapping out all my other Infinitys for JBL! We'll see though. The JBL center is bigger than the space I have available so I probably won't swap out the C25 for a while.
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