List of Digital (Class-D) Home Theater Receivers - Page 61 - AVS Forum
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post #1801 of 1899 Old 11-30-2010, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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So are people saying that there hasn't been anything cheap and good since the Panasonic digital receivers (i.e. SA-XR70)?
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post #1802 of 1899 Old 11-30-2010, 12:38 PM
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It biggest sonic advantage is the reduction of SCIN(Shield Current Induced Noise)....

Now I am hearing things I didn't know existed..

Just my $0.02...
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post #1803 of 1899 Old 11-30-2010, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grayson73 View Post

So are people saying that there hasn't been anything cheap and good since the Panasonic digital receivers (i.e. SA-XR70)?

Pretty much.

There was the Panasonic SA-BX500, which actually had HDMI and decoded Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD bitstreams, but it's basically impossible to find now and is not cheap on the used market when it does pop up. It did have a fan and wasn't as compact as the older ones also.
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post #1804 of 1899 Old 12-02-2010, 12:39 PM
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I have panasonic XR-70 for 5+ years. I am not an audio aficionado, so I am happy with what I have. Recently, when I connected a 1080p source into it, it looked like it is crapping out. (Not sure if it is 1080p issue or somethign else, as the only thing I tried was the Roku which was trying to stream supposedly HD from YouTube)

Anyway, now looking at what is available, I dont see much choices. Is the Shrewood Netboxx is the only option now as replacement? Is Marantz a class D amp? Size looks small, thats all I am looking for. If the promise of streaming built in is good, that is a plus, I can eliminate one more box.

Thanks in advance.
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post #1805 of 1899 Old 01-11-2011, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjath View Post

Anyway, now looking at what is available, I dont see much choices. Is the Shrewood Netboxx is the only option now as replacement? Is Marantz a class D amp? Size looks small, thats all I am looking for. If the promise of streaming built in is good, that is a plus, I can eliminate one more box.

Thanks in advance.

The Marantz is not class D. Unfortunately as far as I know, the Sherwood is the only thing available. I say unfortunately because the industry is making a mistake not anything against the Sherwood. I have one and love it. The streaming is no good though - Playon is junk compared to true Netflix/HuluPlus support.

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post #1806 of 1899 Old 02-06-2011, 02:03 PM
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Thanks to this forum and others I just purchased a Panasonic SA-XR25. It will be interesting to hear how it mates up with my Klipsch Forte II speakers. I should be getting it by the end of the week.

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post #1807 of 1899 Old 02-07-2011, 05:03 AM
 
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I've tried to explain that the latest in true all-digital amplifier technology from Asia last year.
It was rejected at AVS, even though its audibly superior and rediculously low priced (seven 120w channels and HDMI 1.4 for $300)
Hey guys you may not like our President, be he is right in stating we need to compete better as the world has changed.
We can't remain suck with expensive, European analog class D Amplifier technology from 10 years ago.

Here we are in 2011 and the Pulses all-digital amplifier technology has spread to China.
Sandy Gross, of Polk Audio and Definitive Technology fame has founded The Golden Ear Company, which has introduced a revolutionary new speaker called the Triton Two.
The relevant point here is its using the less inexpensive, more efficient all-digital amplifiers in its built-in powered subwoofer. Sandy confirms it:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post19962179
The next logical step is for receivers to incorporate a digital subwoofer output, to eliminate the unnecessary D/A and A/D conversion.
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post #1808 of 1899 Old 02-08-2011, 05:43 PM
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I should be getting my SA-XR25 tomorrow! I'm excited to give it a try.

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post #1809 of 1899 Old 02-20-2011, 02:03 AM
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Jumping in on this thread.

I am currently looking around for a truly all digital amp like the xr-55 or some such.

I have been looking at the super cheap panasonic HTIB SC-BT etc. I only need 2 optical inputs and a way to play Blu-Ray which these do. Obviously they are missing a lot of funtionality, but are they true TDAA or equibit or purepath etc?

Example: SC-BT200 http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/SCBT200.PDF

I am not an audiophile and don't really have any experience in home audio so I am completely open. But the simple arguement of removing analog parts from the signal path until powering the speakers seems to be both logical and desirable.The reason I am looking into the true digital amps is because I was recommended them as being highly cost effective, superb sounding amps when only using digital inputs. I will not be inputting any kind of analog signal.

I am building BFM designs, a THT subwoofer, TLAH mains and SLA center. Haven't decided on surrounds yet. These speakers are highly efficient with 96+Db SPL on the mains and 92+ SPL on center. Sub is 105+ Db corner loaded. So I really don't need much power output. For 75db levels from my mains I need like .01 watts or some such. Not overall very taxing really....

This is my first foray into 5.1 and I won't be aiming for 7.1 any time soon. I will be supplying input from 2 S/PDIF (tv and HTPC) and using the built in blu-ray player or blu-ray over the computer. I don't know a lot about all the movie audio formats, but I doubt i will need (or hear a difference) in the high quality ones, as I have no purpose built theater room or 7.1 I am just worried about a lack of EQ as the sc-bt series do not have graphic eq. What is the best format that will run over S/PDIF as I know there is a limitation in bandwidth in S/PDIF?

I am going to ring Panasonic tomorrow and hopefully find out what the built in high pass/low pass cross over is for the subwoofer. I am afraid it is going to be high and unchangeable though. I am aiming for 80hz 3rd or 4th order for my planned setup. These HTIB power the sub from the receiver which would be a cost effective solution as well. There is no way to integrate a sub plate amp.

Would anyone recommend any other solutions like this? Australia (where I live) does not seem to have a used market for the old panasonics otherwise I'd probably settle for one of them.
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post #1810 of 1899 Old 02-20-2011, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MitchH311 View Post

I am not an audiophile and don't really have any experience in home audio so I am completely open. But the simple arguement of removing analog parts from the signal path until powering the speakers seems to be both logical and desirable.

There really isn't any benefit to this signal path. It's admittedly more simplistic from the design persecutive but you won't notice any audible difference with even mid level equipment. (when i say mid level i mean mid level consumer audio gear)
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post #1811 of 1899 Old 02-20-2011, 04:04 PM
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I was surprised to see that my SA-XR25 was actually an SA-XR45! I've been thoroughly enjoying it the past couple weeks. Incredibly detailed sound, superb bass output. Really sounds great with my Klipsch Forte II speakers.

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post #1812 of 1899 Old 03-02-2011, 05:29 PM
 
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The improved digital amplifier technology should be combined with highly efficient speakers, as traditional ceramic magnet speakers are notably inefficient.

Combining these attributes into a complete miniaturized high performance system must have made Bose a fortune. Watch the Energy Efficient Series sound system video and then the
Neodymium speaker technology video.

http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/...ions/index.jsp

This improvement in speaker efficiency makes a 100watt digital receiver becomes as loud as a 200watt receiver. But you need to have some insight into what speakers use neodymium magnets.

I strongly suspect Bose licenses Pulsus all-digital amplifier technology, as its dirt cheap. But we will never know. I can live with that, as Bose charges a premium and Samsung all-digital 700 receiver is priced quite reasonable at Big Box.
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post #1813 of 1899 Old 03-02-2011, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

The improved digital amplifier technology should be combined with highly efficient speakers, as traditional ceramic magnet speakers are notably inefficient.

Combining these attributes into a complete miniaturized high performance system must have made Bose a fortune. Watch the Energy Efficient Series sound system video and then the
Neodymium speaker technology video.

http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/...ions/index.jsp

This improvement in speaker efficiency makes a 100watt digital receiver becomes as loud as a 200watt receiver. But you need to have some insight into what speakers use neodymium magnets.

I strongly suspect Bose licenses Pulsus all-digital amplifier technology, as its dirt cheap. But we will never know. I can live with that, as Bose charges a premium and Samsung all-digital 700 receiver is priced quite reasonable at Big Box.

huh?

what on earth makes you think that a neodymium motor inherently makes a speaker more efficient? Cone weight and suspension characteristics are much more important than the type of magnet used.

Bose made a fortune on their marketing, the vast majority of their speakers perform terribly.
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post #1814 of 1899 Old 03-05-2011, 09:39 PM
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As mentioned above I just purchased a Panasonic SA-XR45. I came across an SA-XR55 for sale and was wondering if it would be an upgrade due to its Dual Amp function that doubles the power to the front speakers. I have a 2 channel setup without a subwoofer.

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post #1815 of 1899 Old 03-07-2011, 10:14 AM
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You gotta have bi-amp ready speakers, too...

"It's an invention, and it makes Non-Stop Rocking possible!"
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post #1816 of 1899 Old 03-07-2011, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigrig View Post

You gotta have bi-amp ready speakers, too...

Even if your speakers have the proper terminals the result isn't a doubling of the power to the speaker.

In fact there is virtually no advantage to 'passive bi-amping'.
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post #1817 of 1899 Old 03-10-2011, 09:39 PM
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Any user of Sherwood R-904N?

I see the atoms free and fine,

That bubble like a sparkling wine;
I see the songs Electrons sing,
Jumping from ring to outer ring;
              - Lister, The Physicist
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post #1818 of 1899 Old 03-12-2011, 06:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xianthax View Post

huh?

what on earth makes you think that a neodymium motor inherently makes a speaker more efficient? Cone weight and suspension characteristics are much more important than the type of magnet used.

Bose made a fortune on their marketing, the vast majority of their speakers perform terribly.

They are more efficient and play louder with less distortion. As a result, they sound cleaner.
Your traditional view of Bose, while somewhat still true needs updating. Technology moves on and we need to constantly re-evaluate our perceptions hoping that something better comes along.

Hmmmm... AvGuide gets the advantages of true ALL-digital receivers:
The Samsung class D receiver "eliminates from a traditional signal path all the electronics of a DAC as well as the active analog gain stages of a preamplifier and power amplifier. It does this by converting the PCM signal from a digital source directly into a pulse-width modulation (PWM) signal that turns the M2’s output transistors on and off. That’s it—no digital filter, no DACs, no multiple stages of analog amplification, no interconnects, no jacks, no analog volume control, no preamp. The conversion from the digital domain to the analog domain occurs as a by-product of the switching output stage and its analog filter. This is as direct a signal path as one could envision."

Summary: HDMI 1.4, 7.1 120w channel for $300. Obviously a no brainier decision to buy as nothing else compares.

Lessons learned: it's easier for technology to change than experienced people still living in yesterday. Now go to Cheddar's and enjoy the food and sound from them tiny, high fidelity neodymium speakers and class D amplifiers. All thanks to Bose!
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post #1819 of 1899 Old 03-12-2011, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

They are more efficient and play louder with less distortion.

Efficiency and clean output are functions of many variables and higher sensitivity is not an indicator of maximum clean output. Neodymium allows a higher motor strength for less weight/size but thats basically it. The clean output levels and driver sensitivity are much more complex issues than the material used for the magnet. More simply put claiming that a neodymium motor instantly gives you better sensitivity, higher peak spl and low distortion is completely incorrect. Neodymium has been used in speaker motors for several decades if not longer, there is nothing new about it. Its not used in every speaker because its a rare material and hence, expensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Hmmmm... AvGuide gets the advantages of true ALL-digital receivers:
The Samsung class D receiver "eliminates from a traditional signal path all the electronics of a DAC as well as the active analog gain stages of a preamplifier and power amplifier. It does this by converting the PCM signal from a digital source directly into a pulse-width modulation (PWM) signal that turns the M2’s output transistors on and off. That’s it—no digital filter, no DACs, no multiple stages of analog amplification, no interconnects, no jacks, no analog volume control, no preamp. The conversion from the digital domain to the analog domain occurs as a by-product of the switching output stage and its analog filter. This is as direct a signal path as one could envision."

Summary: HDMI 1.4, 7.1 120w channel for $300. Obviously a no brainier decision to buy as nothing else compares.

Lessons learned: it's easier for technology to change than experienced people still living in yesterday. Now go to Cheddar's and enjoy the food and sound from them tiny, high fidelity neodymium speakers and class D amplifiers. All thanks to Bose!

That receiver (Samsung HW-C700) has been discussed at length already and most comically has been shown to not even have the "all digital signal path" you love so much. The PWM output of the pulsus IC is filtered to analog and feeds analog input international rectifier class D drivers.
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post #1820 of 1899 Old 03-12-2011, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

AvGuide gets the advantages of true ALL-digital receivers:
The Samsung class D receiver "eliminates from a traditional signal path all the electronics of a DAC as well as the active analog gain stages of a preamplifier and power amplifier. It does this by converting the PCM signal from a digital source directly into a pulse-width modulation (PWM) signal that turns the M2's output transistors on and off. That's itno digital filter, no DACs, no multiple stages of analog amplification, no interconnects, no jacks, no analog volume control, no preamp. The conversion from the digital domain to the analog domain occurs as a by-product of the switching output stage and its analog filter. This is as direct a signal path as one could envision."

It'd be really great if you stopped using such underhanded tactics to support your love for this Samsung product.

The quote you used above is about the NAD M2 amplifier NOT the samsung receiver. In fact avguide has never even reviewed the Samsung HW-C700.
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post #1821 of 1899 Old 03-13-2011, 05:20 PM
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I picked up the SA-XR55 and it is a very nice upgrade over the 45. The Dual Amp feature sends noticeably more power to my speakers. I have a 2 channel setup without a subwoofer so the receiver is always in Dual Amp mode. There is significantly more bass with the 55, especially at higher volumes.

I'm extremely glad someone recommended these receivers!

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post #1822 of 1899 Old 04-09-2011, 07:53 AM
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wtf is going on here??????????????????
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post #1823 of 1899 Old 04-10-2011, 07:41 AM
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I posted this as a separate topic in the AVR board, but thought I'd include it here since it is applicable to the digital AVR topic.

I currently have a panasonic SA-XR45 AV receiver for my home theater that I purchased back in 2004 based on the advice I received from this forum. I recently upgraded my display (Samsung PN59D550 59" plasma), and am considering upgrading to an AV receiver with HDMI 1.4 inputs. But, after some research I learned that no one is really making these "all digital" amplifiers anymore. I'm happy with the sound of the panny, but would like the convenience of connecting all my components into the receiver, and just 1 HDMI into the display.

My setup: Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 fronts, CMT-340 center, HTM-200 rears, HSU VTF-1 subwoofer)

Any suggestions on a mid-level AV receiver for my setup (Denon AVR-1911, Marantz NR1601, Pioneer VSX-1020, or others)? Would I be settling for lower sound quality by abandoning my digital receiver?
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post #1824 of 1899 Old 04-15-2011, 09:21 PM
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new yamaha aventage series receivers ax-800 or higher is a good start
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post #1825 of 1899 Old 04-18-2011, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jww1584 View Post

...
I currently have a panasonic SA-XR45 AV receiver for my home theater that I purchased back in 2004 based on the advice I received from this forum. I recently upgraded my display (Samsung PN59D550 59" plasma), and am considering upgrading to an AV receiver with HDMI 1.4 inputs. But, after some research I learned that no one is really making these "all digital" amplifiers anymore. I'm happy with the sound of the panny, but would like the convenience of connecting all my components into the receiver, and just 1 HDMI into the display.

...

For digital, you can go with something like the Samsung HW-C900 or the HW0C700. Added benefit for you would be the Samsung Anynet Plus.

Or, if you can live with HDMI 1.3, there is the Sherwood R-904N.
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post #1826 of 1899 Old 04-19-2011, 12:50 PM
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not anything against the Sherwood. I have one and love it. The streaming is no good though - Playon is junk compared to true Netflix/HuluPlus support.
I have the same opinion.. The R904N is a beautiful sounding receiver.

I wish they would get some different software for the TI Davinci CPU in that thing..

VuNow is crap and PlayOn is crappier!

The cheap BlueRay player have better media support.. That is pretty sad considering the DaVinci is a pretty decent CPU..
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post #1827 of 1899 Old 05-22-2011, 07:22 PM
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I've had the Panasonic XR-57 for years in my Bedroom HT, I've always been fairly disappointed in it, actually. Sound quality is only decent in stereo mode, one optical audio jack broke, etc. I came on her to find some alternatives to Panasonic in the Light weight division
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post #1828 of 1899 Old 07-16-2011, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR_IN_LA View Post

...Sound quality is only decent in stereo mode, one optical audio jack broke, etc....

Hm, what does "only decent" mean? Compared to what?

I found it to be noticeably better than any Class AB I've tried, most costing multiples of what the SA-XR57 costs.
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post #1829 of 1899 Old 07-16-2011, 02:18 PM
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From Pioneer EU:

"Features include unique compact form, quality class D 6 channel 100 W power output and lower power consumption. The VSX-S300 will be available from the end of June, the VSX-S500 will be on sale from August."

Sure hope they make it to the US.
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post #1830 of 1899 Old 08-06-2011, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

From Pioneer EU:

"Features include unique compact form, quality class D 6 channel 100 W power output and lower power consumption. The VSX-S300 will be available from the end of June, the VSX-S500 will be on sale from August."

Sure hope they make it to the US.

Agreed - it is time!

You can import one on ebay for $650

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