List of Digital (Class-D) Home Theater Receivers - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 1899 Old 08-21-2004, 09:02 AM
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Bruce,

Could you point out some reviews that say this?

After Sony got those problems with the earlier models fixed (hissing and low volume) I have not read a single negative review of any Sony S-Master Pro receiver.

The finnish magazine has reviewed three of these (DB2000QS, DA5000ES and DA9000ES) and concluded them to be good competitors in their price class. The latest review (of the DA9000ES) said the receiver to be musical, lacking all shrillness common to todays receivers and pleasant to listen in their listening tests. Power output of the unit was excellent (5x165W continuous and 5x255W peak into 4 ohms), FR nearly flat even at lower impedances, which have been problematic to all digital amplification design, including the Pannys due to the high output impedance.

The early production units which were filled with problems just gave the S-Master Pros undeserved bad reputation.

Here are few reviews from the net:
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-...?reviewid=4029
http://www.nickspicks.com/

Too bad there aren't that many available yet.
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post #242 of 1899 Old 08-23-2004, 09:51 AM
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"The early production units which were filled with problems just gave the S-Master Pros undeserved bad reputation. "

What you state is true about the faulty production units. But this is not the most important deficiency with the "S-Master Pro". The main issue is the DESIGN ITSELF, which lacks in comparison to other digital amplifier technology. Just read the technical description from the latest Audio Critic magazine. Very inelegant.

Sony was very quiet with SACD (which is technically inferior) and now mum with S-Master Pro. What a track record!
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post #243 of 1899 Old 08-23-2004, 10:02 AM
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Actually, I have heard great forum reveiws of both the 3000 and 9000 Sony receivers used in 2 channel mode and compared against some much more expensive competition at Audiogon and Audio Asylum recently.


What say you Alan?

Have you kept the 9000, and does it sound any better with run in time, or used with a power conditioner ?
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post #244 of 1899 Old 08-23-2004, 10:05 AM
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Kenwood 8100 announcement:

TI's PurePath meets Kenwood: On August 17, Texas Instruments (TI) announced a new consumer product from Kenwood featuring TI's PurePath Digital technology, claimed to produce "the most lifelike sound while enabling sleek, slim-profiled high power audio products. Kenwood's VRS-N8100 audio/video receiver incorporates TI' TAS5182 power stage, controlling two channels of up to 100 watts/6 ohms of high-efficiency output each, and the TAS5076, a 24-bit six-channel pulse-width modulator (PWM) processor. TI says that its noise shaping and error-correction filtering algorithms achieve superior dynamic range and flat noise floor with no spurious tones. The $700 VRS-N8100 will be available at major retailers in September 2004.

http://www.guidetohometheater.com/news/0822304roundup/
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post #245 of 1899 Old 08-23-2004, 10:11 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by reincarnate
Kenwood 8100 announcement:

TI's PurePath meets Kenwood: On August 17, Texas Instruments (TI) announced a new consumer product from Kenwood featuring TI's PurePath Digital technology, claimed to produce "the most lifelike sound while enabling sleek, slim-profiled high power audio products. Kenwood's VRS-N8100 audio/video receiver incorporates TI' TAS5182 power stage, controlling two channels of up to 100 watts/6 ohms of high-efficiency output each, and the TAS5076, a 24-bit six-channel pulse-width modulator (PWM) processor. TI says that its noise shaping and error-correction filtering algorithms achieve superior dynamic range and flat noise floor with no spurious tones. The $700 VRS-N8100 will be available at major retailers in September 2004.

http://www.guidetohometheater.com/news/0822304roundup/

FYI, exact same as 7100 power and sonic wise, with a few added features.
7100 can be bought for 300.00
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post #246 of 1899 Old 08-23-2004, 10:25 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Earz
FYI, exact same as 7100 power and sonic wise, with a few added features.
7100 can be bought for 300.00

So following this logic only a fool would buy the 8100...

But is there more to the story than what Earz would have you believe?

Who would even consider a receiver today without multi-channel inputs?

Does the 7100 include multi-channel inputs?

Does the 8100 include multi-channel inputs?
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post #247 of 1899 Old 08-23-2004, 10:41 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by reincarnate
So following this logic only a fool would buy the 8100...

But is there more to the story than what Earz would have you believe?

Who would even consider a receiver today without multi-channel inputs?

Does the 7100 include multi-channel inputs?

Does the 8100 include multi-channel inputs?

I would, as I can't stand most hi rez multi channel recordings.
They sound gimickey at best.

And I spent 13k + to find this out with top notch gear and equal speaker ect.

If guitars or drums coming from the rear channels sound natural to you, then so be it.
A few hi rez selections with ambience in the rears were nice, but overall, I prefer 2 channel hi rez.
Maybe in the future this will change whith more realistic sounding recordings.

I am sure there are features on the 8100 that would make it worth the extra money, I was just pointing out the fact that sonically, they are the same......thats all.
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post #248 of 1899 Old 08-23-2004, 01:15 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by reincarnate
[BSony was very quiet with SACD (which is technically inferior) [/b]

"technically inferior" to what? Care to elaborate?

Kevin
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post #249 of 1899 Old 08-23-2004, 01:23 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by reincarnate
The main issue is the DESIGN ITSELF, which lacks in comparison to other digital amplifier technology.

Care to elaborate? What exactly does it lack?

The thing is, the best measurments I've seen from any digital amplification technology, are from the S-Master Pros. So if they technically speaking lack something, it clearly isn't needed.
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post #250 of 1899 Old 08-23-2004, 07:33 PM
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"The general consensus heard throughout the forums is that the Sony digital receivers just don't measure-up in the quality sound department to real human listeners. "

This is the first time I have heard this statement. From what I have found on the Internet the problems with Sony's STR DAX000ES series is not the sound, but finding a receiver that works.

People, myself included, rave about the sound. To me it is better than the Denon 3805 that I bought to replace my 3000ES. Others state that the sound compares favorably with multi-thousand dollar tube amps (whatever they sound like).

As I said the problem with the 2000/3000/5000ES receviers is that Sony had a very poor manufacturing run with no apparent QA. Many of the receivers had no power. For example, I had a 3000ES that seemed to produce 10W/channel instead of 150. It also had a level of hiss. Others with 2000ES and 5000ES receviers had this problem. Another problem with the Sony's is that they would start dropping the video signal after a few months.

I went through 3 3000ES receivers before I gave up and bought the Denon. But when I had one that worked correctly volume wise it sounded great. The definitive HT DVD for sound is Terminator 3 and the Sony brings out sounds in it that you were not aware of before. The chase scene is especially good.

I have heard that Sony has fixed the production issues and recalled and repaired the other receivers. I am going to wait until some time in October and then buy a 5000ES. If it works as expected the Denon will become a spare.
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post #251 of 1899 Old 08-23-2004, 11:59 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Earz
FYI, exact same as 7100 power and sonic wise, with a few added features.
7100 can be bought for 300.00

I agree.

The Kenwood 8100 has a few more bells and whistles than the 7100, but the "improvements" do not warranty the double the price upgrade.

One nice thing the 8100 has over the 7100, besides network support, is banana plugs instead of the wretchedly tiny spring clips.

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post #252 of 1899 Old 08-24-2004, 10:11 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Earz
I would, as I can't stand most hi rez multi channel recordings.
They sound gimickey at best.

So we are now aware of the bias in your opinions.
Thank you for being honest.

BTW the list price of the 8100 is being compared to the lowest street price of the 7100. Another little bias of this thread!
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post #253 of 1899 Old 08-24-2004, 04:07 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by reincarnate
So we are now aware of the bias in your opinions.
Thank you for being honest.

BTW the list price of the 8100 is being compared to the lowest street price of the 7100. Another little bias of this thread!

I may be 2 channel hi rez biased, but never brand biased.

I own two Pannys, a JVC RX-10, and a Kenwood 7100, tried a HK dpr 2005, and stuck up for a Sony reciver based on word of mouth reveiws of late.

Yep...I am real biased

This is avs forum....not " As The Digital Receiver Turns." forum.

As I said before, I could happily live with any of these, if I had not directly compared them.

Analog ins were compared as
1 JVC RX-10
2 A very close second was the Kenwood 7100
3 Not even in the running was the Pany 45...which imo, has terrible analog ins.


Not liking multi channel gimmickey unatural sound effects that are present on a lot of hi rez recordings, does not make me biased
It is just my opinion, and as always, use your own judgement....not mine.

As far as the 8100, it has already been mentioned if you bothered to read the thread, and yes it has already been pointed out that they are the same sonically and power wise.

If you think my opinions are biased, perhaps you can spend a bunch of your own hard earned money, and do your own comparisons.
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post #254 of 1899 Old 08-24-2004, 06:31 PM
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Are there any Forum sponsors who are sources for an XR50? If not, any other suggestions of sources for this model? Thanks.
CWS
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post #255 of 1899 Old 08-24-2004, 06:38 PM
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Where are you located?? I ask because I might have a friend in sales that can help you out, if you like.
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post #256 of 1899 Old 08-24-2004, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
The main issue is the DESIGN ITSELF, which lacks in comparison to other digital amplifier technology. Just read the technical description from the latest Audio Critic magazine. Very inelegant.

I don't know that they would be a good sole source on which to base an opinion. There have been more than a few times they've trashed products because, IMO, they really didn't understand the intricacies of a unique design that strayed from the status quo. The Sony digital solution might not be perfect, but I've never heard anyone who understands the technology describe it as inelegant--quite the opposite, in fact.
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post #257 of 1899 Old 08-25-2004, 07:28 AM
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anyone here heard the hk dpr 2005 AND the Sony ES 3000/5000? based on this forum...my preference may lie in these 2....anyone done any comparisons - soundwise only?
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post #258 of 1899 Old 08-26-2004, 10:32 PM
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Hey Chucksva,

I don't know if these places are sponsors or not but this is where I have seen them (XR50) the cheapest :

http://www.video-direct.com/panasoni...s/compare.html

http://www.etronics.com/listproducts...id=4118&store=

Depending on where you live and whether you have to pay tax these are the cheapest places to buy them other than B&R store.
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post #259 of 1899 Old 08-27-2004, 06:18 AM
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I think Video direct is an authorized Panasonic dealer.

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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post #260 of 1899 Old 08-27-2004, 09:58 AM
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Quote:


anyone here heard the hk dpr 2005 AND the Sony ES 3000/5000? based on this forum.

Do a search in this thread. A few have tried or have the HK. Its a very nice receiver with a lot of nice features but it lacks the clarity and dynamics of the other digitals. Im not saying it does not sound good, it does but it sounds like an analog amp.

I have the Sony 9000es and its the best thing I ever heard but unfortunately I am having trouble with the bass managament. I dont know if its a software problem on Sonys side or I have a defective unit. Trying to get to the bottom of this.
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post #261 of 1899 Old 08-27-2004, 12:34 PM
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I have had my Sony DA5000ES for about four months without any power problems or hiss (with a muted source at +5). The soundstage and imaging are incredible.
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post #262 of 1899 Old 08-27-2004, 01:05 PM
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So Alan,

How about comparison of Sony ES to the Panny's and the Kenwoods?
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post #263 of 1899 Old 08-29-2004, 05:30 AM
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Originally posted by Alan Gouger
I have the Sony 9000es and its the best thing I ever heard

I trust Alan's ears. And there is no substitute for the experience gained when critically evaluating and comparing many pieces of equipment. So what the other poster claimed about the improved quality at Sony must be true. Therefore, this is one one the most remarkable turn-arounds I've ever seen for a given product.

I bought the Sony 3000ES about 3 months after it was introduced. I wrote a very negative review. Only kept the receiver one night as it was THAT bad.
This situation makes me wonder about the Sony management and the higher risk involved to the consumer in buying expensive products of such variable quality. What a gamble! Perhaps making movies is a bit of a distraction?

I note that the Sony 9000 has a large ANALOG power supply unlike the lower priced ES models. Because of this it can drive low impedance speakers audibly better too. The 9000ES is priced about 8-10 times higher than the Panasonic or JVC or Kenwood models which dominate this thread.

And lastly digital signal processing can easily degrade the sound quality. I have a (SRC) sample rate converter (upsampler included) and can hear a definite loss in dimensionally and resolution, even when upsampling, increasing the word length or adding dither. My research indicates that the TI technology is substantially better than the Sony. So we need Alan to listen to a comparable $3500 TI based product...
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post #264 of 1899 Old 08-29-2004, 07:43 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Do a search in this thread. A few have tried or have the HK. Its a very nice receiver with a lot of nice features but it lacks the clarity and dynamics of the other digitals. Im not saying it does not sound good, it does but it sounds like an analog amp.

I have the Sony 9000es and its the best thing I ever heard but unfortunately I am having trouble with the bass managament. I dont know if its a software problem on Sonys side or I have a defective unit. Trying to get to the bottom of this.

So it did improve with run in and /or power conditioning then?
If so, I am not suprised.

Sorry to hear about your bm problem, hopefully that can be worked out.
In a couple of months, maybe I can send you a modded Panny 45 to compare to the 9000.

That would be a very intersting comparison, and save me from spending 3-4k on trying a 9000 .
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post #265 of 1899 Old 08-29-2004, 12:38 PM
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I note that the Sony 9000 has a large ANALOG power supply unlike the lower priced ES models.

Yes I did see this. Its very big and Im sure its responsible for part of the weight. It also tells me its not a pure digital path.

Quote:


So we need Alan to listen to a comparable $3500 TI based product...

Ive also tried the H/K and the Kenwood digitals.
Im currently back to using the Kenwood. The Sony is a real power house. Plenty of reserve power. It can handle any spkr load. Im really looking forward to the Panasonic 70. ( sorry I dont remember the full model number)
I really prefer the Sony over the Kenwood but I am starting to think I do not have a defective unit but that Sony has a bug thats yet to be noticed with its bass management in multi channel modes.

While I like the sound of the Sony I do not like the size and weight, the manual is terrible and the setup menu system is not very user friendly.

Like everything else I wish we could take the best of each digital receiver and put that into onebox and keep the price under $300
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post #266 of 1899 Old 08-30-2004, 06:31 AM
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Any speculation on new digital path 7.1 receivers at Cedia? I have an Onkyo tr600 currently and want to change to 7.1 and am between getting Denon 3805 or a 7.1 digital. I have also thought about daisy-chaining pannys as well (but still only 6.1).

I will be pushing 6 (now) Mirage Omni 60s (7 later). I have an SVS powered sub so no problems there. The Omnis are fairly efficient speakers but I would like to send them a little more juice to clarify dialog in movies and improve overall detail.

Any suggestions? I ordered a kenwood 7100 for a friend and will try it out this week just for kicks.

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post #267 of 1899 Old 08-30-2004, 09:57 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Yes I did see this. Its very big and Im sure its responsible for part of the weight. It also tells me its not a pure digital path.



Ive also tried the H/K and the Kenwood digitals.
Im currently back to using the Kenwood. The Sony is a real power house. Plenty of reserve power. It can handle any spkr load. Im really looking forward to the Panasonic 70. ( sorry I dont remember the full model number)
I really prefer the Sony over the Kenwood but I am starting to think I do not have a defective unit but that Sony has a bug thats yet to be noticed with its bass management in multi channel modes.

While I like the sound of the Sony I do not like the size and weight, the manual is terrible and the setup menu system is not very user friendly.

Like everything else I wish we could take the best of each digital receiver and put that into onebox and keep the price under $300

The full model # of the Panasonic receiver you mentioned is Panasonic SA-XR70. It will also come in silver, which would be Panasonic SA-XR70S.

I'm also looking forward to that receiver and reading reviews here and elsehwhere on how it compares to the Kenwood VRS-7100.

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post #268 of 1899 Old 08-30-2004, 10:55 AM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by reincarnate
[BSony was very quiet with SACD (which is technically inferior) [/b]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:


Originally posted by Kendrid
"technically inferior" to what? Care to elaborate?

reincarnate,

Want to provide some evidence of what you are saying about SACD and S-Master Pro? You post that SACD is "inferior" and provide nothing to back it up. You don't even say what it is inferior to.

And no, I am not a Sony fan. I don't even have an SACD player. I'm just curious how you came to the conclusions you did.

Kevin
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post #269 of 1899 Old 08-30-2004, 12:46 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Kendrid
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by reincarnate
[BSony was very quiet with SACD (which is technically inferior)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



reincarnate,

Want to provide some evidence of what you are saying about SACD and S-Master Pro? You post that SACD is "inferior" and provide nothing to back it up. You don't even say what it is inferior to.

And no, I am not a Sony fan. I don't even have an SACD player. I'm just curious how you came to the conclusions you did. [/b]

I already provided an excellent souce for about the only good technical description of S-Master Pro. So why do you ask again? Go to Barnes and Noble in the audo magazine section...
As for SACD I don't have the time or desire to spew data and web links as some here do. Go do some research for yourself. But I will say this: the main issue is that SACD keeps a running average of its samples. The current sample is dependent of what the previous samples. So sharp transients are filtered.

Here is a good link to show how its strongest supporters view their world:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=422091
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post #270 of 1899 Old 08-31-2004, 10:05 AM
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I forgot to mention that this past weekend, when I visited the folks, I watched 3 DVDs on their HTS, featuring the Kenwood VRS-7100. All I can say is that the sound is pretty damn sweet.

However, one annoying thing, according to my father, is that the sound volume changes a lot between DVD and TV and even between channels. I told him it's b/c the various sources are putting out at varying levels. Is there anyway of normalizing the volume across all sources? I know there's a "midnight mode", but that would ruin the booms and bangs of special effects.

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