New amp is making me grin from ear to ear =) - Page 10 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #271 of 4975 Old 07-10-2004, 01:15 PM
 
tubeguy44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Originally posted by Stewee
Newbie Question
What exactly does this mean, I was reading it on the Denon specs.
The AVR-3805 has a 2 mini-jack outputs to send a 12-Volt DC "turn-on" signal to another component that accepts a 12V trigger, such as a power amplifier. These trigger outputs can be assigned to the Main Zone, Zone 2 or Zone 3.

Does this mean that you do not have to worry about the thumps?
Sorry about the audio challenged question!

a 12 volt trigger works with equipment and/or power conditioners that have this input feature.....

when you turn one component on or off (like the denon receiver) a 12 volt signal is sent to the next component and that component is also turned on or off....

when hooked up to a power conditioner that is equipped with this feature.... your entire system can be powered up or down by using one button on your receiver/receiver's remote.....

this may or may not solve your "thumps" depending upon the amp itself....

cheers!

tubeguy44 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #272 of 4975 Old 07-10-2004, 01:19 PM
Member
 
Stewee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Plano TX
Posts: 49
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So it would not prevent the thump by the Crown since the amp does not have this feature. Am I correct?
Stewee is offline  
post #273 of 4975 Old 07-10-2004, 01:21 PM
 
tubeguy44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
correct!

tubeguy44 is offline  
post #274 of 4975 Old 07-10-2004, 03:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
thylantyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the Crown and Samson internals,
if anything Crown should be slapped in the hand for not installing traditional
heatinks on those power transistors, instead they take the cheap route
and used stamped out aluminum with no fin array. Whether you need this or
not depends on how much heat it will dissipate, but it's always a bonus
if the manufacturer added extra heatsink. That is the catch 22 with pro amps,
they never do, they rely alot on the fans. Crown sells because of brand
recognition. It's not even their design right? :hehe:

Have you seen the 4kw Yorkville AP6020 for $1300, that looks
cool but who is Yorkville ? :lol: The schematic shows 145v rails, a monster.



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

thylantyr is offline  
post #275 of 4975 Old 07-10-2004, 03:20 PM
Senior Member
 
Terrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Western North Carolina
Posts: 275
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Originally posted by Stewee
So it would not prevent the thump by the Crown since the amp does not have this feature. Am I correct?

The thump in question, will depend on the speakers used, the volume of the source, what components are turned on in whatever order, and to some extinct, the gain of the amp.

So far, in my system, this is a non-issue all together with the Crown.
Terrax is offline  
post #276 of 4975 Old 07-10-2004, 03:47 PM
SRR
AVS Special Member
 
SRR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,938
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Does anyone have something to say about this fan: http://www.svc.com/arctic-fan-pro-tc.html At $5 a pop it would only be $40 to "upgrade" my 4 Crown amps, sure lot cheaper than the Pabst fan.
SRR is offline  
post #277 of 4975 Old 07-10-2004, 04:55 PM
Advanced Member
 
keepinitcool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 590
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Originally posted by SRR
Does anyone have something to say about this fan: http://www.svc.com/arctic-fan-pro-tc.html At $5 a pop it would only be $40 to "upgrade" my 4 Crown amps, sure lot cheaper than the Pabst fan.

Don't know about the fan, although the Artic Cooling VGA cooler has been popular, so it seems they might make good parts. That looks like a good solution since it is temperature controlled. The least expensive way is just to wire a resistor inline of the 12V supply to drop the supply voltage. This will of course make your fan speed fixed to a lower speed, depending on the resistor value.
keepinitcool is offline  
post #278 of 4975 Old 07-10-2004, 05:23 PM
F3K
Member
 
F3K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Originally posted by SRR
Does anyone have something to say about this fan: http://www.svc.com/arctic-fan-pro-tc.html At $5 a pop it would only be $40 to "upgrade" my 4 Crown amps, sure lot cheaper than the Pabst fan.

I've never used this fan, but if you're interested in a variable speed model, I can recommend the Enermax Whisper. It's very quiet and its thermister sits at the end of a relatively long lead which would allow you to attach it directly to a heatsink with a small piece of thermal tape:

http://www.svc.com/enwhfan80blf.html

FWIW, I use the Arctic Cooling VGA Silencer and its fan typically spins at the same subjective amplitude as the Whisper, but I wouldn't prorate it to AC's other models based on past experience.

Felix
F3K is offline  
post #279 of 4975 Old 07-10-2004, 05:28 PM
Member
 
b-mill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Manchester NH
Posts: 142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I must say that I find this thread quite intriguing and like many others am now considering pro amps as a viable alternative to much more expensive home theater amps. It seems that most of the posters here are going the way of the Crown XLS 402 and at its price point you certainly can't beat it. I'm thinking very hard about picking a few up. The only thing holding me back is that I've got a very good hookup at the music store I deal with and can get other brands at very attractive prices. I recently bought a Yamaha P3500S to power my subs and have not been disappointed. I know Yamaha is not the biggest player in the pro audio game, but so far I have no complaints. Has anyone else tried Yamaha power amps in their systems? I'd also be interested in some general thoughts about the Yamaha line if anybody has had some hands on experience, either home theater or pro sound applications. Thanks.

b-mill is offline  
post #280 of 4975 Old 07-10-2004, 06:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Alex solomon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,371
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Does the Crown 402a require a dedicated 20amp circuit ? Would I cause any damage if I just plug it to an ordinary wall outlet?

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
Alex solomon is offline  
post #281 of 4975 Old 07-10-2004, 06:48 PM
Advanced Member
 
keepinitcool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 590
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Originally posted by Alex solomon
Does the Crown 402a require a dedicated 20amp circuit ? Would I cause any damage if I just plug it to an ordinary wall outlet?


Should be fine in a normal outlet. I don't think you'll need a 20amp circuit until you get over 2 x 1000W in one amp. Typically you can tell because they use the larger IEC connector which is rectangular. The small IEC connect is rectangular but has two small angles on it.
keepinitcool is offline  
post #282 of 4975 Old 07-10-2004, 07:47 PM
Advanced Member
 
jazzcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Carrollton, Texas
Posts: 994
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Got an email from bluejeanscable and my XLR to RCA cables should arrive the same day as the Crown

I'm pumped to say the least.
jazzcat is offline  
post #283 of 4975 Old 07-10-2004, 09:35 PM
Member
 
Bryan G.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: OK
Posts: 99
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I am glade to see other people happy using pro-audio amplifiers. I have been using my qsc plx1602 to power my 2ch setup for a couple of months now. I have been extremely satisfied. I don't know why I haven't been using it longer. I have had it for a couple of years using it in my gig rack. A couple of months ago I was thinking about moving up to separates. While looking at all of the amps I noticed that most( in my price range) fell short when compared to the plx. Not just in power but thd and dampening factor also. Then all of a suden I realized that there was no reason to purchase a lesser quality amp, especially when I hadn't even tried the plx to see what it sounded like. I figured it would be noisy and unmusical, but I was WRONG! It sounds great. It has all the power I could ever dream of having. It is rare that I ever have it turned up past the first notch. I have no noise at any level I have tried it at, and the highs are crisp and clear, while the lows are deep and punchy.

I know that it is a bit excessive and if I was going to purchase a dedicated amp just for my 2ch setup I would go with less power. But this thing is great. With < 0.03% THD, distortion isn't even a consideration. The only thing to consider is fan noise. In quiet passages it can be an issue. Keeping the amp away from the listening position is the easiest option. Changing the fans would probably work, but because I also use the amp on gigs, I have chosen to leave them alone in fear of doing real damage. It does have a variable-speed fan, but that goes from not quite quiet to LOUD. I have never had it kick in over drive, or even put out hot air, when not at a gig. I have heard testimonials of people using racks of plx's for days during summer festivals in 100 degree + weather, so it might even be alright to run it without a fan under the ac with a light load.

It has both xlr and 1/4" inputs, and speakon, 1/4", and binding/bannana outputs. So it is a bit more flexible then the crown. I don't know how the cheaper rmx line is configured but I would assume it is similar. I know these plx amps retail for considerably more then the crown amps being discussed here, but they are CHEAP compared to modest hifi amps. At one time I noticed that qsc was selling factory direct refurbished gear at insane prices <$400 for the 1602, I am not sure if that is still happening. I couldn't find anything on their website, but you might keep an eye out at places like www.musiciansfriend.com for b-stock products. The build quality on these things are great I wouldn't be concerned about failure. I haven't had to deal with customer support but I every thing I have heard about them has been great. So even refurbished or used you should be alright.

I would highly recommend qsc for anybody thinking about buying a pro amp for hifi use. Having the power your speakers want makes all the difference in the world. You haven't heard your speakers until you have given them REAL power.

Btw
I am running direct -> plx -> diy 2-way mini-tower speakers. Since its just 2ch I don't have a need for a processor so I just left it out. I like the minimalistic approach.

Here is a link to the qsc site.
http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/plx/plx.htm

-Bryan
Bryan G. is offline  
post #284 of 4975 Old 07-11-2004, 12:51 AM
Senior Member
 
Edvard_Grieg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 371
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
wow, turn my back, and this thread grows like crazy, yeah the PLX series and the SRA series was what I was referring to when asking for comparisons of Crown to QSC....Imagine using 5/7 SRA 3622 in bridge-mono mode....2400w/ch 8ohms .1% dist....drool....or use 3/4 of them in stereo mode with 725w/ch 8ohms with .03% dist......incredible http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/sra/sra.htm


but then again the crown macro-tech 5002VZ series looks pretty damn sweet as well 1090w/ch 8ohms .1%THD
http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/maspec_2.htm
Edvard_Grieg is online now  
post #285 of 4975 Old 07-11-2004, 07:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
brickie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: chicago
Posts: 6,152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Sounds like it's win-win all the way around!!!

brickie

AM I THE ONLY OASIS IN THE DESERT OF STUPIDITY......" SIR BRICKENBOCKER"
brickie is offline  
post #286 of 4975 Old 07-11-2004, 07:43 AM
 
tubeguy44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Originally posted by Edvard_Grieg
wow, turn my back, and this thread grows like crazy, yeah the PLX series and the SRA series was what I was referring to when asking for comparisons of Crown to QSC....Imagine using 5/7 SRA 3622 in bridge-mono mode....2400w/ch 8ohms .1% dist....drool....or use 3/4 of them in stereo mode with 725w/ch 8ohms with .03% dist......incredible http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/sra/sra.htm


but then again the crown macro-tech 5002VZ series looks pretty damn sweet as well 1090w/ch 8ohms .1%THD
http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/maspec_2.htm

the qsc SRA series of amps are really sweet amps..... almost bought one when i picked up my carver pro....

the SRA series is actually aimed at the home theater market..... and the fans in this series are a high quality quiet fan..... almost inaudible unless you are right next to the amp!!!! of course. they are not cheap..... about $1500 online for the 200 watt per channel model.....



cheers!

tubeguy44 is offline  
post #287 of 4975 Old 07-11-2004, 07:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
brickie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: chicago
Posts: 6,152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
That's one sweet pic right there..

brickie

AM I THE ONLY OASIS IN THE DESERT OF STUPIDITY......" SIR BRICKENBOCKER"
brickie is offline  
post #288 of 4975 Old 07-11-2004, 08:16 AM
Advanced Member
 
jazzcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Carrollton, Texas
Posts: 994
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
tubeguy, are those digital? I remember reading where the 200 watt is Class AB, but the other 2 models are class H or something?
jazzcat is offline  
post #289 of 4975 Old 07-11-2004, 08:33 AM
Member
 
Bryan G.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: OK
Posts: 99
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Here is a reply from Bob Lee from qsc when asked about the sra vs. plx .
I hope he doesn't mind me posting. It was posted in a public forum...


Bob Lee

The audio circuitry and power supply in the SRA (Studio Reference Amplifier) amps are almost identical to the PLX amps. The SRA amps have a quieter fan, true, but it is also a lower-capacity fan. Since running hard into 2 ohms per channel would be very out of the ordinary in a studio or a home theater system, we figured that was an acceptable tradeoff.

The SRA amps were put through UL testing with those quiet-but-less-air fan and they passed. Unfortunately, the PLX amps went through UL testing with the higher-capacity fan, and therefore we can't retro-fit the quieter fan in them without risk of losing UL approval on the whole series. And if you've ever been involved with UL testing of electronic products, you know it's friggin' expensive!


Thought you guys might want it from the horses mouth

-Bryan
Bryan G. is offline  
post #290 of 4975 Old 07-11-2004, 08:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
brickie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: chicago
Posts: 6,152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Would this apply to MOST amps you think? Did anyone remove the fans out of their Crown and give them a try?

brickie

AM I THE ONLY OASIS IN THE DESERT OF STUPIDITY......" SIR BRICKENBOCKER"
brickie is offline  
post #291 of 4975 Old 07-11-2004, 10:57 AM
Advanced Member
 
keepinitcool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 590
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Whether you can run without fans is highly dependent on the load you are putting on the amp. Page 19-20 of the XLS manual has tables showing the amount heat that is generated, but this is with the amp with knobs turned all the way up, so this would be the max heat. It seems to be around 200W for 4 ohm at "typical" rock and roll music on the 402. That is probably over the borderline for fanless IMHO, but if you do not have the knobs turned up all the way it will be less than that.

The Carver Z series is a digital based unit, so that would generate much less heat. The XLS are typical A/B amps so they will generate fair amounts of heat.
keepinitcool is offline  
post #292 of 4975 Old 07-11-2004, 11:18 AM
Member
 
Bryan G.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: OK
Posts: 99
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally posted by keepinitcool
Whether you can run without fans is highly dependent on the load you are putting on the amp. Page 19-20 of the XLS manual has tables showing the amount heat that is generated, but this is with the amp with knobs turned all the way up, so this would be the max heat. It seems to be around 200W for 4 ohm at "typical" rock and roll music on the 402. That is probably over the borderline for fanless IMHO, but if you do not have the knobs turned up all the way it will be less than that.

The Carver Z series is a digital based unit, so that would generate much less heat. The XLS are typical A/B amps so they will generate fair amounts of heat.

An important thing to remember is that the volume controls on the amp don't limit the output. What I mean is that it should still be possible to reach full output with the amp volume only at 5%, it is directly dependent on the input level. Also the dynamics of most music causes the output to be very little most of the time. The difference from 50w-100w is only 3db, 100w-200w still only 3db. So even at fairly loud levels most of the time the output is well below what is rated of the amp.

So even if you have the volume set at %100, you still might be able to run it without a fan. It depends on the input level, speaker sensitivity, and dynamics of the music/movie you are playing. I would probably replace the fans with a low flow fan before disabling it completely, especially if it was in a cabinet, rack, or stacked with other hot components. You might also consider larger slower fans and mount them externally, they should produce a lot less noise and still move quit a bit of air.

-Bryan
Bryan G. is offline  
post #293 of 4975 Old 07-11-2004, 12:14 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Keenan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 28,046
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 206 Post(s)
Liked: 327
Good point, those "volume" controls appear to be really input sensitivity controls similar to what you would find on car stereo amps. The link below is a guide for setting the sensitivity controls on some JL Audio car amps and is specific to their amplifiers so you would have to get the proper numbers for the pro amps discussed here but the procedure should be the same. It describes how to get the maximum voltage before clipping at the speaker terminals.

Might be of some help or interest...

http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials/Inp...ainSetting.pdf


Jim
Keenan is online now  
post #294 of 4975 Old 07-11-2004, 12:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
thylantyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Bob Lee
The audio circuitry and power supply in the SRA (Studio Reference Amplifier) amps are almost identical to the PLX amps.


I'm assuming the home version cost more because people will pay.
But the pro industry will not pay a higher dollar per watt for the same
design.

Home audio assumption; More money + brand name = better sound quality.

Home audio reality; More money ~= underrated design, high build quality,
better eye candy, and the sound quality is always subjective.




The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

thylantyr is offline  
post #295 of 4975 Old 07-11-2004, 01:36 PM
Advanced Member
 
keepinitcool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 590
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally posted by Bryan G.
An important thing to remember is that the volume controls on the amp don't limit the output. What I mean is that it should still be possible to reach full output with the amp volume only at 5%, it is directly dependent on the input level.
-Bryan


That's true, this assumes the input signal is the nominal signal the amp is designed for. That information, the input sensitivity, is in the owner's manual. With a digital pre-pro, and even analog ones, you can send a higher voltage input signal.
keepinitcool is offline  
post #296 of 4975 Old 07-11-2004, 01:46 PM
Advanced Member
 
keepinitcool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 590
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The 2RU QSC amps made in the US are run on the same line using approximately the same chassis size and circuit boards, there may be some slight variations but not many.
keepinitcool is offline  
post #297 of 4975 Old 07-12-2004, 03:00 AM
SRR
AVS Special Member
 
SRR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,938
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Tracked down some info on the fans that are in my Crown amps, they are made by XinRuiLian http://www.xinruilian.com/main.htm

They are the RDH8025S model. And from what I can tell their specs are: 39.14 CFM, and 31.44 dBa, and they run at 3000rpm.
SRR is offline  
post #298 of 4975 Old 07-12-2004, 05:15 AM
Advanced Member
 
jazzcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Carrollton, Texas
Posts: 994
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally posted by SRR
Tracked down some info on the fans that are in my Crown amps, they are made by XinRuiLian http://www.xinruilian.com/main.htm

They are the RDH8025S model. And from what I can tell their specs are: 39.14 CFM, and 31.44 dBa, and they run at 3000rpm.

Wow, 2 fans pushing almost 40cfm each! No wonder they can be heard...
jazzcat is offline  
post #299 of 4975 Old 07-12-2004, 10:48 AM
Newbie
 
RichSpellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Mazeroth,

I have a pro set up in a non-profit coffeehouse and I am running three EV 1440w, one EV 880w and a Furman power conditioner all through one surge protector strip that is connected to I think a twenty or tirity amp circuit. Also off that circuit are two light trees with four one hundred and fity watt bulbs in them, plus various amplifiers that the bands plug in so that gives you an idea of how much can be loaded on a circuit.

The only problem I have is turning stuff on. I have to do them one at a time. If I try them all at once I trip the cicuit breaker.

Rich
RichSpellbound is offline  
post #300 of 4975 Old 07-12-2004, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Mazeroth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I'd hate to have your electric bill, Rich!
Mazeroth is online now  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Crown , Qsc , Polk Audio

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off