New amp is making me grin from ear to ear =) - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 4989 Old 07-18-2004, 08:28 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by thylantyr
You have the potential to send more power to the speakers, but that
doesn't mean you will... that is why the volume knob was invented

If you already bought Crown amps and want to add more, but now
you may want to buy QSC, that is fine too.. But to keep the cosmetics
the same, it looks nice to use the same brand so you can show off.


This I know..Was just stating that each amp is more than capable of pushing the wattage that would exceed the recommendation of Polk..Since all my amps are in same rack,of course I like them to look the same.But I do understabd where you're coming from..

I'm curious myself to hear someone compare a Crown to a QSC.Especially that have them in their home at same time.Either way is a winner!!keep us posted.

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post #452 of 4989 Old 07-18-2004, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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With the RTi150s you will be running the amp at a 4 ohm load, even though Polk states they're 8 ohms. I've read a few threads on Polk's site along with AVS where people have tested them and they are indeed 4 ohm speakers. It's the reason why a lot of receivers will shut down "trying" to run them

With that said, I'd get (2) Crown XLS-602s, run them bridged so the RTi150s will get 1680 watts each LoL! Nah, just kidding. A single 602 should make those speakers sing all day long. Heck, the 402 on a set of LSi15s is insane, and if you step up to the 602 you're talking about 200w more PER channel! I'd LOVE to hear 150s with power like that. The best I've heard is 150s on an HK AVR520, and I wasn't impressed at all. This setup would probably change my mind about these speakers.
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post #453 of 4989 Old 07-18-2004, 09:52 PM
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About bridging, you can do it but it's not usually that great an idea. Most pro amps can handle 4 ohms comfortably and 2 ohms in a pinch - the distortion goes up at 2 ohms. When you bridge them, it's 8 ohms comfortably, 4 ohms in a pinch, and 2 ohms are below their comfortable range. Many speakers dip near 2 ohms at some frequency so bridging isn't a good match for them. If your speakers are rated 8 ohms, and dip to 4 ohms at some point, you can probably run bridged. If they are rated 4 ohms, and dip to 2 ohms, bridging isn't a good option.

Dennis H
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post #454 of 4989 Old 07-18-2004, 10:59 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by catapult
About bridging, you can do it but it's not usually that great an idea. Most pro amps can handle 4 ohms comfortably and 2 ohms in a pinch - the distortion goes up at 2 ohms. When you bridge them, it's 8 ohms comfortably, 4 ohms in a pinch, and 2 ohms are below their comfortable range. Many speakers dip near 2 ohms at some frequency so bridging isn't a good match for them. If your speakers are rated 8 ohms, and dip to 4 ohms at some point, you can probably run bridged. If they are rated 4 ohms, and dip to 2 ohms, bridging isn't a good option.

distortion goes up at 2 ohms

Specifically,inaudible distortion rises if it's hard to hear 1% THD,
does it matter if you went from 0.1% to 0.2% ....

Actually, if this bothers someone, don't run the amplifier at full power,
run it less to get lower distortion. /heh

You can exceed amplifier specifications under certain conditions. For example,
I can drive my Adcom bridged down to 1 ohm nominal driving tweeter arrays and it's
not rated for less than 8 ohms. The reason it works is;

a. there is no protection circuits to raise the 'red flag' and shut down the amp.
b. tweeters are easy loads, they draw much less power than ... lets say ..
woofers.
c. music it not 100% duty cycle. If an amplifier were tested with a resistor
dummy load exceeding the 'ohms' specs playing continous tones, this
would push the amplifier to it's limit and it would complain.

The reason you want to bridge it is to raise the clipping ceiling if you like
to operate amplifiers at their performance envelope. At some point it's overkill.


With that said, I'd get (2) Crown XLS-602s, run them bridged so the RTi150s will get 1680 watts each LoL!


This would be fun to do and you don't need to buy another amp to try this.
Use your existing amp and bridge it, test the results on one channel only.



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post #455 of 4989 Old 07-19-2004, 12:11 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Terrax
Ok guys, I'm asking for your opinions here. I mentioned before that I wanted to get two more 402's and run them bridged. I'm rethinking that now, and have my decision narrowed down to two choices.

The Crown XLS602a or the QSC RMX2450. The RMX2450 is more powerful, but the XLS602a is a little cheaper. I am however prepared to spring for the QSC.

Either of these amps would be powering a set of Polk RTi 150's, which are rated to handle 500 watts. The 150's are being used in HT/2 channel duty.

What I'm asking I guess is, which would you buy, and why?

QSC: http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/rmx/rmx.htm

Crown: http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/xlsspec.htm

Terry

The only thing I've heard about RMX amps has been lukewarm in terms of the sound quality, and that may apply more to the class H ones.
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post #456 of 4989 Old 07-19-2004, 08:53 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by brickie
My rt3000p's are setup the same way, so glad you got it going.

brickie

brickie,

Do you run your RT3000p's with a dedicated subwoofer?
I have the RT2000p's, and have used the 2 8' woofers (in each tower) that are powered as my subwoofer. If you do have a dedicated subwoofer, does it make a huge difference between what the towers provide?

Also, to tie it into this thread, do you just use the binding post to push the high and lows of your towers with the Amps?

Which brings up a bunch more questions, but I will let you answer this first .

---also if anyone else has input into this question feel free to respond! --
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post #457 of 4989 Old 07-19-2004, 09:27 AM
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Quote:


The reason you want to bridge it is to raise the clipping ceiling

If you are running loud enough to clip unbridged, you are running loud enough for low impedance loads to be a problem when you bridge. You are turning your 2-channel amp into a 1-channel amp and doubling your cost per channel. Why not just spend that money on a bigger amp and get something that's designed to handle low impedance? Of course, if your speakers are high impedance, bridging is no problem.

Dennis H
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post #458 of 4989 Old 07-19-2004, 09:47 AM
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The RMX amps are a good value for the money. I've heard them and I couldn't hear anything wrong with them, which is about all you can ask of an amp. They would be my first choice in their price range. The specs are better than the Crowns being discussed here and old timers will remember a thread similar to this one, although not as long, praising the RMX sound. Keep in mind the main point being made in this thread. It's all about having lots of good clean power. Any difference in the sound of two well built class AB amps, with equal power and headroom, will be quite subtle.

Dennis H
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post #459 of 4989 Old 07-19-2004, 12:22 PM
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I run the gain knobs on my 2 Crown XLS-402s at full tilt, but I NEVER push my amps to near insane levels - is there a downside to doing this (max on the gain knobs) in my case?

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post #460 of 4989 Old 07-19-2004, 12:28 PM
 
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Quote:


Originally posted by spacecowboy
I run the gain knobs on my 2 Crown XLS-402s at full tilt, but I NEVER push my amps to near insane levels - is there a downside to doing this (max on the gain knobs) in my case?


your approach might be the best sonically depending upon how the volume controls are wired up.....

a good volume control is basically bypassed totally when turned all the way up..... this way it doesn't have the chance to add any noise into your signal path.....

my carver pro ZR amp even has a switch for each channel to bypass the volume controls taking them out of the signal path totally.... there is a noticible drop in the noise floor when engaging these switches over just having the volume all the way up.....

cheers!

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post #461 of 4989 Old 07-19-2004, 02:03 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by guenwyv
brickie,

Do you run your RT3000p's with a dedicated subwoofer?
I have the RT2000p's, and have used the 2 8' woofers (in each tower) that are powered as my subwoofer. If you do have a dedicated subwoofer, does it make a huge difference between what the towers provide?

Also, to tie it into this thread, do you just use the binding post to push the high and lows of your towers with the Amps?

Which brings up a bunch more questions, but I will let you answer this first .

---also if anyone else has input into this question feel free to respond! --

Hi, I had a set of those and sold them to get my Rt300p's.I do run an additional subwoofer as well..Not necessary bu the way i'm wired dictates it.I didn't want my Rt3000p's handling the LFE channel..I beleive they could easily though..The bass they put out is PRODIGOUS!!!!For most people it would be enough..

I just run the speaker cable to my Rt3000p's and use short jumpers to go from the high section to the low section..They are run as conventional towers.They have lfe inputs but I want them to also be full range for stereo listening,and not just for DD or DTS. This way too, they can add greatly by runnin gfull range when watching movies.I do use the binding posts.

Also just in case I didn't answer,I would love to find a few of them without the upper part and run them as my dedicated subs..They are just that good!!!!!

brickie

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post #462 of 4989 Old 07-19-2004, 03:07 PM
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Thanks brickie, I appreciate your feedback.

btw-- I did see some RT3000p's for sale on Ebay--both complete towers. Already too much that I want to upgrade now!

What did you push your towers with before you got the Crown? Does a seperate amp make that big a difference with the Polks?
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post #463 of 4989 Old 07-19-2004, 04:17 PM
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You'll generally get the best signal/noise ratio if you set the gain controls so the amp and the preamp clip at the same time. Setting the gain controls too high means any noise from the preamp gets amplified more than it should.

http://www.rane.com/note135.html

Dennis H
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post #464 of 4989 Old 07-19-2004, 07:06 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by guenwyv
Thanks brickie, I appreciate your feedback.

btw-- I did see some RT3000p's for sale on Ebay--both complete towers. Already too much that I want to upgrade now!

What did you push your towers with before you got the Crown? Does a seperate amp make that big a difference with the Polks?

I was running a lowly old pioneer 810s.Not bad, in terms of it has the feature that I need..But couldn't drive those speakers well if I threatened to blow it up!!The thing was I loved the sound of Pioneer,but couldn't afford their Elite equipment..Not any of the latest and greatest anyway.The Pioneer didn't do bad, jsut was not powerful enough..

I think it's pretty much a fact that Polk speakers are for the most part 4 ohm speakers!And they will dip below that in demanding scenes.

The Crowns make them sing like nothing Iv'e ever heard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is that good!!!!And yes the difference is that dramatic!!!!!!If you have "larger" Polks you need to send them some good clean power to make them sing!!I just gave my cousin a demo..And I helped him carry his face to the car! He was floored!!!!!!!I did turn it up a little louder than I even watch at,But damn I was even impressed!!!Amps didn't break a sweat at all!!!!!!! After witnessing that demo for him, theres just no need for a 602.I'm happy quite where i'm at!It is nothing short of foolish to look at another amp before auditioning these pro amps...Everytime I look at mine I just get all warm and fuzzy inside!!!!!I would say they are the most important part of my setup in terms of performance per dollar..Well my Rt3000p's are close since they were a grand, brand new!

Also I talked with Crown today..My last few amps didn't have their warranty card in them, so I called them to do it..I had no problem whatsoever,and she never asked where they were purchased from!!!!Gotta love their warranty!!

Catapult, so them I assume i'm correct in running my amps at 50% gain instead of cranked up...enough ranting.

brickie

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post #465 of 4989 Old 07-19-2004, 07:48 PM
 
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Catapult, so them I assume i'm correct in running my amps at 50% gain instead of cranked up...

try it both ways and see what sounds better....

i agree with most of what is on the rane link that catapult provided....but that was written for the professional user and not considering home applications....

try it and see what works best..... it all depends upon the how the volume controls (or input level controls) are wired....

cheers!

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post #466 of 4989 Old 07-19-2004, 07:54 PM
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Will do..

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post #467 of 4989 Old 07-19-2004, 08:14 PM
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just installed the SilentX fans in my 402. What a difference! No noise when it is running. Will replace the fans in the 202 when it arrives.
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post #468 of 4989 Old 07-19-2004, 10:02 PM
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My fans are arriving thursday, didn't get around to ordering them until Friday of last week, I am jealous jazzcat.
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post #469 of 4989 Old 07-20-2004, 01:31 AM
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My cables arrived today so I had a chance to do a rough evaluation of the amps.

Equipment so far:
Sony DVP755 DVD player
Creek 4330 integrated amp
Crown XLS 402
Dynaudio S1.4 Bookshelf on Dyn stands
BlueJeans Belden 1694 interconnects

Had the Creek (40wpc) driving the Dyns previously, and though it sounds excellent and neutral at lower volumes, I can hear some distortion when turned up.

Used the Creek's pre out to the XLS and I could sense the extra power right away. No hiss or hum whatsoever out of the speakers. However, the fans were loud, which I think is due to the forced air through the aperture, rather than the motor.

I only heard 4-5 songs (a few Alison Kraus tunes) but I felt that it played a bit warmer (and not as neutral) than the Creek. Will need to listen more in order to confirm that.

I have to turn up the XLS AND Creek volumes to 3/4 full to get the same volume as the Creek at 3/4 though, which is not all that loud. Any thoughts on why I need to almost max out everything? I was hoping that with all that power I only need a fraction of the volume match the Creek.

Wish the 3805 would get here. Bah!
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post #470 of 4989 Old 07-20-2004, 04:43 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by SRR
My fans are arriving thursday, didn't get around to ordering them until Friday of last week, I am jealous jazzcat.

LOL, don't be...I am still waiting on my Denon 3805!

BTW, the fans I got have a 120 ohm resistor in series with the positive leg. When I tried them without the resistor, they were almost as loud as the Crown fans. So I am going to put 2 resistors on the stock fans in the 202 and see how they sound.
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post #471 of 4989 Old 07-20-2004, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by jazzcat
LOL, don't be...I am still waiting on my Denon 3805!

BTW, the fans I got have a 120 ohm resistor in series with the positive leg. When I tried them without the resistor, they were almost as loud as the Crown fans. So I am going to put 2 resistors on the stock fans in the 202 and see how they sound.

Could you just put one 120 ohm resistor in line with the positive red wire coming out of the amplifier board into the fan for the Crown for both of the fans, since they share the same single wire?
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post #472 of 4989 Old 07-20-2004, 11:20 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Mazeroth
Couldn't you just put one 120 ohm resistor in line with the positive red wire coming out of the amplifier board into the fan for the Crown for both of the fans, since they share the same single wire?



The reduce 'wind' noise you slow the fan speed.

You lose CFM, but it may be a non issue.




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post #473 of 4989 Old 07-20-2004, 12:40 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Mazeroth
Couldn't you just put one 120 ohm resistor in line with the positive red wire coming out of the amplifier board into the fan for the Crown for both of the fans, since they share the same single wire?

Yes, I was considering that but was wondering if the 1/4 watt resistor would handle both fans. Maybe I'll pick up a half watt just to make sure. My 202 will be here tomorrow. I will use the stock fans and compare noise levels between the 402 with SilenX and 202 stock with the resistor.
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post #474 of 4989 Old 07-20-2004, 12:59 PM
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Well, my Crown XLS402 was delivered today at 2:10 pm and signed for by my wife....anyone want to guess what I'm doing tonight?

On an aside, connecting the l/f pre-out mains from the h/k 7200 to the crown. Going to set the crown on "full gain", the h/k has the ability to default to a certain audio level (say -55 dB) when it first comes on. Will this help with the "thump" issue..do I need to worry about the "thump" issue? Anything else I should be concerned about.

Just don't want to blow up my JBL's before the Axioms get here.

It's like Xmas all over again.

EDIT:

Well that was easier than I thought. Shame on me for not thinking that it is pretty much idiot proof. A couple of interconnects hook up the speakers (got them bass ackwards the first time :eke, turned the H/K down so as not to be over come, et viola.

Prior to hookup SPL ran ~85 at -30, now it's 104 at -20...FWIW, the say to use -15 for the "EzSetup".

Set the XLS402 to 3/4, turned off the AVR....waited....waited...turned it back on......no thump. So just leave it on? Don't see any harm...sure it may burn out in a few years...so what? If it's on warranty, covered if not I'm out $329. Let's see $329 divided by 1096 (day one outside of warranty) is $.30 per day....seems very reasonable.

Waiting for the Axioms and the SVS then.....I'm done. Except for re-routing the wires, moving everything, re-hooking up, blah, blah blah. Heck maybe by Christmas.

Excellent product for the price point...very happy. As a bonus it keeps the 7200 cool.

Rich McGirr

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post #475 of 4989 Old 07-20-2004, 04:37 PM
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rmcgirr83, what model Axioms/ SVS are you getting? M22ti's and 150 center here and the SVS 25-31PCi or 25-31PC+ for me. Can't wait till everything comes together too!

Will have to tip the UPS guy after delivering both Crowns, Denon 3805, Axioms, SVS, Outlaw ICBM bass manager and the Samsung DVD941
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post #476 of 4989 Old 07-20-2004, 04:55 PM
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Looking around and I noticed that this place sells new Crown XLS for even cheaper than topdjgear. That's a damn good deal.

http://www.djgear.com/crown.html


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post #477 of 4989 Old 07-20-2004, 04:57 PM
 
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Quote:


So just leave it on? Don't see any harm...sure it may burn out in a few years...so what?

these amps are designed to be run continously.... no chance of them "burning out"......

cheers!

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post #478 of 4989 Old 07-20-2004, 05:53 PM
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Whelp, I pulled the trigger. I ordered a QSC RMX2450 this morn, and its on the way. The waiting begins........... Which is the hardest part. Once I have it in my grubby little paws, and get it hooked up and running, I'll post my first impressions of it. Then I hope to do some kind of comparison between the XLS402a and the RMS2450. Not sure how yet, seeing as how there aren't of the same wattage. Maybe just a kind of overview. Anyway, I'll let you all know what my thoughts, even if its just a ramble.
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post #479 of 4989 Old 07-20-2004, 06:22 PM
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Looking forward to the review..Although i agree without similar power ratings really only the "sound" can be commented on..

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post #480 of 4989 Old 07-20-2004, 06:36 PM
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Did we ever comment on the difference between the 402 and the 402A?

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