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post #181 of 4989 Old 07-08-2004, 11:25 PM
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Hiss problem? Have you adjusted the input sensitivity? Setting it for higher
gain will give more hiss on any amplifier.

Clicking sound? I'd be suspicious because Carver marketing claims
this amplifier is good for;;;;

Applications:
PA Systems
Installed Sound
Home Cinema
Electric & Electric Acoustic Musician
Critical Listening
Mobile DJ and Club
Energy Conscious Municipalities
Houses of Worship
Performing Arts & many more
http://www.carverpro.com/2003/products/zramps.html

/hehe

I'd be on the phone with tech support ---- critical listening in the house
of worship reveals clicks



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The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #182 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 12:06 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by thylantyr
Hiss problem? Have you adjusted the input sensitivity? Setting it for higher
gain will give more hiss on any amplifier.

Clicking sound? I'd be suspicious because Carver marketing claims
this amplifier is good for;;;;

Applications:
PA Systems
Installed Sound
Home Cinema
Electric & Electric Acoustic Musician
Critical Listening
Mobile DJ and Club
Energy Conscious Municipalities
Houses of Worship
Performing Arts & many more
http://www.carverpro.com/2003/products/zramps.html

/hehe

I'd be on the phone with tech support ---- critical listening in the house
of worship reveals clicks

I've contacted them regarding the issue. I honestly don't know if it's a problem with the amplifier or my high expectations. The amplifier seems to work fine otherwise. Yes, I did mess with the input sensativity. At one setting, clicking was minimal but still present.
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post #183 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 12:10 AM
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Clicking is not normal, send it back if you can or have it serviced. Oh, and does the clicking go away with out your pre-amp/receiver connected to it? Prolly not but worth a try.
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post #184 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 12:15 AM
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The only things I can think that could or would produce a clicking sound from an amp would be, when the unit is first powered on or when turned off, or the fans. Clicking during operation would never be normal on any amp. Not in my mind, anyway.
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post #185 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 12:16 AM
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The clicking happens with or without the receiver attached. However, it happens MORE FREQUENT with the receiver attached.

When I first power on the amplifier, it makes a similar clicking sound too (sounds like a static discharge, kinda').
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post #186 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 12:41 AM
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Has anyone noticed the power consumption of the XLS-402's? A whopping 1300 watts. By comparison, my Parasound HCA1500A only consumes 800 watts. And is 205 w/c into 8 ohms. To me, this is a good thing. At least the amp isn't starving itself out of power.
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post #187 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 01:03 AM
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Hmmm, I am running 3 402s one 202, and all the rest of my equipment from one 20amp outlet, wonder how close I come to tripping a breaker.
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post #188 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 05:30 AM
 
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Quote:


Originally posted by OregonLAN
Well, after playing with the ZR1000 for a little, I can honestly say I'm NOT 100% happy with it. At -80 volume, the amplifier emits a slight hissing noise on both speakers. The hiss is like white noise but of a slightly higher pitch. Also, it randomly emits a slight clicking noise (ever 30 seconds or so). I'm very susceptible to the clicking noise, so it drove me nuts while watching a silent movie. The hissing didn't really bother me though. I played with some of the setting/jumpers but nothing eliminated the problem. Is it possible I received a defective amplifier or am I expecting too much of a pro-audio amplifier? For now, I will leave it disconnected. My Denon exhibits none of these symptoms (at any volume).

there should be no clicking sound.....

two ways to lower the hiss level......

1. bypass the volume controls on the front of the amp...the "level control defeat" switch on the front of the panel..... let your denon control the volume on the amp...

2. engage the ground lift switch on the rear of the amp.....

i get a very small amount of hiss from my klipsch speakers if i put my ear right next to the tweeter and out to maybe a foot....from my listening position - not a bit of hiss..... (and my speakers are very efficient - 102 db @ 1watt @1meter)


good luck!

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post #189 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 06:53 AM
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i'm not 100% sure...but i'm fairly convinced that the hissing has to do with running unbalanced cables.

mabye tube guy can answer this one....can you ground the RCA end of a cable to the chassis, like a phono, to make it balanced? then you can either use an XLR or TRS input??

There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness...
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post #190 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 06:57 AM
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You might want to have a look at the following, which I have quoted from Crown's FAQ's page. It's a good read.

"How can I get rid of the noise in my system?"

"First let us lay some groundwork: audio systems can exhibit "hum" and they can exhibit "buzz," which are two separate situations. To solve the problem, you need to determine whether your system is exhibiting hum or buzz.

Sixty(60)-hertz hum (fifty(50) hertz internationally) is a result of having a ground loop in the audio system. This is where there are two or more ground references in the system, and current is flowing from one ground point to another. Any piece audio equipment requires one ground reference. Ground loops can be formed in a number of ways. For example: An audio power amplifier obtains its ground from the AC power cord. The mixer, which drives the power amplifier, also receives its ground from the AC power cord. When the audio cable connects the mixer to the power amplifier the amplifier now sees a second ground from the mixer. If the mixer and power amplifier are both plugged into the same AC power strip then the mixer/amplifier interconnect cable shield can be cut to eliminate this problem. On most Crown amplifiers there is a "ground lift" switch on the back of the amplifier that performs this function and can be used to eliminate hum caused by ground loops. If you are using a cable service, such as cable TV, and you are routing the audio through your stereo system, you may experience a ground loop hum. This is a result of the cable company's ground reference setting different than your system ground reference. You can contact your cable company and get an isolation transformer that will take care of the problem.

Another cause of system "hum" is electrically induced, such as having a very sensitive component too close to a power transformer. Power amplifiers have large power transformers and can induce a magnetic field into other equipment. If you suspect this may be the cause of your problem then placing more distance between the two components is the only practical solution.

Excessive "noise" on the AC mains can cause "buzz" in certain components. Lighting dimmer packs are notorious for inducing noise onto the AC mains. If this is your problem try putting the lighting system on a different AC mains feed.

Ground loops, induced hum, and all kinds of nasty noises are sometimes hard to pin point. You may have to try several different approaches before arriving at a solution."
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post #191 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 07:07 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by SRR
Hmmm, I am running 3 402s one 202, and all the rest of my equipment from one 20amp outlet, wonder how close I come to tripping a breaker.

Also, in regard to this, I found this at at Crowns FAQ's page as well. And I quote.


"How much "inrush current" will my amp draw during turn on?"

"Design features of the amplifier, including power supply design and transformer size, partially determine maximum peak inrush current for a given amplifier. In addition, the external factors of AC mains voltage and impedance vary greatly making exact values difficult to determine.

Many Crown amplifiers include "Soft Start," a feature designed to limit inrush current. Worst-case peaks for amplifiers without Soft Start may reach as high as 150 amperes; however, such numbers seldom have bearing on practical operation. For example, it is not unusual to find 3 or 4 Crown Micro-Tech amplifiers on a single 15A or 20A branch circuit without tripping breakers at turn-on. There are a couple of reasons why this is possible. First, peak inrush current is usually of such short duration that the breaker will not trip (maximum duration is approximately 18 msec). Second, Crown amplifiers are designed with design tolerances in the power supply start-up circuitry to make it highly unlikely for more than one amplifier channel to come out of standby during the same 18 msec interval.

If nuisance circuit breaker tripping is a concern, "motor-start" circuit breakers, which are designed to withstand the large inrush currents from electrical motors, may be used in place of standard circuit breakers. Contact a licensed electrician for more information about circuit breaker requirements and electrical codes in your area."
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post #192 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 07:08 AM
 
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Quote:


Originally posted by riffman
i'm not 100% sure...but i'm fairly convinced that the hissing has to do with running unbalanced cables.

mabye tube guy can answer this one....can you ground the RCA end of a cable to the chassis, like a phono, to make it balanced? then you can either use an XLR or TRS input??

in the manual for the ZR amps it does specify that when using unbalanced input that you need to have pins 1 and 3 connected.....

if your RCA to XLR cable does not do that you are putting noise into your system.....

also.... as i mentioned earlier...be sure to engage the ground lift switches...

cheers!

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post #193 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 07:23 AM
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From what Crown owners are saying, the 402's do not utilize soft start. If you turn down the volume of the source before you turn on the Crowns, is it ok to keep the volume controls at 1/2, full or wherever you set it?

Terry, have you had a chance to power up the 402 and evaluate the fan noise? I remember brickie saying it wasn't a real issue when he got the first one.
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post #194 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 07:40 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by jazzcat
From what Crown owners are saying, the 402's do not utilize soft start. If you turn down the volume of the source before you turn on the Crowns, is it ok to keep the volume controls at 1/2, full or wherever you set it?

Terry, have you had a chance to power up the 402 and evaluate the fan noise? I remember brickie saying it wasn't a real issue when he got the first one.


I had just been reading the following when I read your post. This is not so much about the powering on issue, but more about the gain level controls of the amp, but I feel it does have a bearing on some other questions posted earlier in the thread. Again, quoted from Crown.

"Should I have the level controls on my amplifier turned all the way up?"

"It depends on the system and how much gain you have prior to the amplifier. The level controls can be thought of as input attenuators. They do not limit the power available from the amplifier. With the level controls turned down the amplifier can still reach full rated output power, it just takes more drive level from your mixer to achieve it. Generally, you should set the mixer's individual channel sliders and master gain to 0 dB, then adjust the amplifier level controls to the desired sound level."

My cables still have not arrived yet, so I've not had a chance to power on the amp yet. Maybe they will arrive today. Once they do, I'll let everyone know.
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post #195 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 09:40 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by tubeguy44
in the manual for the ZR amps it does specify that when using unbalanced input that you need to have pins 1 and 3 connected.....

if your RCA to XLR cable does not do that you are putting noise into your system.....

also.... as i mentioned earlier...be sure to engage the ground lift switches...

cheers!


I forgot about the "ground lift" switches. I will try that when I get home from work. I'm almost positive they weren't "enabled" as I didn't notice an indicator lights on the back...
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post #196 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 09:54 AM
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If you ever want to experiement with making your own cables,
here is the schematic for different conversions.

Sound System Interconnection
http://www.rane.com/note110.html



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #197 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 10:28 AM
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Not that it matters, but on another 'DIY' forum someone posted
this message regarding amplifier sonics.

Posted By: Bob

I believe that if amplifiers sound different, it is most often because one of them is misbehaving in some way. It may be clipping due to insufficient power (amps clip FAR more often than most people realize on well-recorded music). It may be current-limiting due to a low-Z speaker load. It may be going into output protection (sort of like current limiting) due to a stange load phase angle. It may be coloring the sound due to deliberate or accidental frequency response aberrations. It may have a very finite damping factor, allowing the variations in speaker impedance to color the frequency response. It may be chirping into oscillation due to high speaker cable capacitance. The list goes on. BUT, all of these sorts of shortcomings do not require rocket science in the amplifier design to overcome or correct.

Most pro amps are built to be rather bullet-proof under all kinds of difficult and demanding conditions, so often these are not issues for pro amps. True, pro amps are not "refined", whatever that means. I've never heard one complaint about the 250 WPC CREST pro amp that I regularly bring to the DIY gatherings.

Note also that many people seem to love the sound of the Gain Clone amps, at least when they are used within their modest power output limitations. These are certainly NOT sophisticated amplifiers, at least in the audiophile sense (they are fairly sophisticated in terms of a power integrated circuit).

I'm not quite saying that all well-designed, non-misbehaving amps sound the same, but the differences among them should be subtle.

Bob



Gain Clone -
47 Labs designed an esoteric home amplifier using an inexpensive
"chip amp" from National Semiconductor, low power. The DIY
community got excited because audiophiles were loving the sound
of this 'Gain card' amplifier so everyone was jumping on the bandwagon
to make their 'Gain clones' because they can get free chip amp samples
from National.

Next thing you know, everyone is buidling these gain clones as if
it's something new. The reality is that 'chip amps" have been around
for decades, you find them in very cheap receivers to supply little
power. The National chip is better than most because it has decent
power and it's clean. It has it's own problems of course, it's a tiny chip,
it won't drive difficult loads. But nonetheless, they love it.

Even Jeff Roland has a product using the same chips, lol ...
It just goes to show you that audiophiles can be amazed if they
remove the stereotype that 'chip amps' and pro amps are bad sounding.



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #198 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 12:10 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by OregonLAN
Well, after playing with the ZR1000 for a little, I can honestly say I'm NOT 100% happy with it. At -80 volume, the amplifier emits a slight hissing noise on both speakers. The hiss is like white noise but of a slightly higher pitch. Also, it randomly emits a slight clicking noise (ever 30 seconds or so). I’m very susceptible to the clicking noise, so it drove me nuts while watching a silent movie. The hissing didn’t really bother me though. I played with some of the setting/jumpers but nothing eliminated the problem. Is it possible I received a defective amplifier or am I expecting too much of a pro-audio amplifier? For now, I will leave it disconnected. My Denon exhibits none of these symptoms (at any volume).

I listened to both Stevo's amp and tubeguy44's Carver amp at my place when we did some amp comparisons. I am sure you got a bad one. If you got a good working amp, the Carver is will sound pretty good without hissing and clicking noises.
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post #199 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 12:24 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by thylantyr
.....Even Jeff Roland has a product using the same chips, lol ...
It just goes to show you that audiophiles can be amazed if they
remove the stereotype that 'chip amps' and pro amps are bad sounding.

I think some people need to be careful just because something sounds different they sometimes think it must sound better.

Specifically referring to the Jeff Roland amp which has a VERY polite top end (some could use the word as "duller"). Tube lovers (audiophiles) loved this sound as "tube like" albeit it lacked top end information to my ear being even warmer than tubes. IMHO, the design lacked current and speakers did not open-up with low volume levels (potentially because of the National Semiconductor chip) and the bottom end was all but missing in comparison to amps that doubled down and were able to handle difficult loads.
I personally do not think audiophiles have stereotypes that pro amps or digital amps are bad. Bel Canto for instance is getting a lot of praise from audiophiles and that is their target market.
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post #200 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 12:26 PM
 
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If you got a good working amp, the Carver is will sound pretty good without hissing and clicking noises.

only pretty good steve????

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post #201 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 01:05 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by tubeguy44
only pretty good steve????


I of course liked the Carver with my DALI's but you know I like more air on the top end as well as all the tight base I can get. When you have that extra air (albeit only a few percent different), you will never want to give that up. My neighbor probably won't pay $20 for that 3% but he is not passionate. Some of my customers would pay thousands for that 3%.
I will give it an upgrade to "I definitely liked the Carver amp". Now it is your turn to say if you liked my Gemstone amp better.... I know, it is tough.
By the way, I do have your demo CD. Let's get together next week. I can drag an amp over to do some listening on your speakers. I can bring a couple of preamps over as well. I am demoing the new Sherwood. Not bad for the money as the rep just brought it over. I wanted to see what all the fuss was...
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post #202 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 01:12 PM
 
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Quote:


Originally posted by SteveH
I of course liked the Carver with my DALI's but you know I like more air on the top end as well as all the tight base I can get. When you have that extra air (albeit only a few percent different), you will never want to give that up. My neighbor probably won't pay $20 for that 3% but he is not passionate. Some of my customers would pay thousands for that 3%.
I will give it an upgrade to "I definitely liked the Carver amp". Now it is your turn to say if you liked my Gemstone amp better.... I know, it is tough.
By the way, I do have your demo CD. Let's get together next week. I can drag an amp over to do some listening on your speakers. I can bring a couple of preamps over as well. I am demoing the new Sherwood. Not bad for the money as the rep just brought it over. I wanted to see what all the fuss was...


the gemstone amp is very nice..... probably as close to my carver pro amp that i've ever heard..... (and maybe even better in the top end)....

i never had heard a multichannel amp that could produce the high end detail like my carver until i heard the gemstone.....

(am i saying better?.... well.... it was 7 channels and my amp only has 2 channels... ...)

sorry for the off-topic side conversation......
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post #203 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 01:21 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by OregonLAN
I forgot about the "ground lift" switches. I will try that when I get home from work. I'm almost positive they weren't "enabled" as I didn't notice an indicator lights on the back...

I would search out all other causes for the hum before I enabled a ground lift function. What they don't say in that excerpt from the Crown site posted above is if for some reason you have a fault condition in the amp the voltage will run back through the interconnect, your mixer/pre-pro and then through to ground. I don't know how well an audio interconnect can handle 120v but I would imagine not very well. If the audio interconnect fails then you have a live chassis on the amp which could give you a 120v shock if you touched it. Now that being said many manufacturers have implemented double and triple fault protection in their designs the specifics of which I do not know, which is to protect the user from shock if such a condition arrises. I'm assuming these units are using a 3-prong power cord otherwise there would be no use for a ground lift function, that plug is there for a reason as indicated above.

I had a similiar situation when I installed 2 Parasound mono-blocks and ended up having a hum/ground loop problem. I contacted Parasound and they said to use the ground lift switch and sure enough that solved the hum problem but after doing a little more research I found that it is more of a bandaid type of solution and not electrically sound. I ended up installing a dedicated circuit from the main service panel with a proper earth ground and all my equipment is on this circuit. The hum problem went away without using the ground lift switch. This was after ensuring all other connections were proper and using an isolation transformer on the incoming cable.

I am not an electrican or electronics engineer but I beleive the statements I've made above are solid electrical facts.

In everyday reality I don't think it should ever present a problem but, bottom line, they would not go to the expense of using a grounded power cable(albeit a small expense) if not for a reason, so use caution.


Just my 2 volts

Jim
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post #204 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 01:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by keenan
I would search out all other causes for the hum before I enabled a ground lift function.
Jim

the "ground lift switch" in this discussion disconnects the signal ground from the chassis..... (the switches are right next to the signal input connections)

it does not affect the 3 prong power plug going to the wall......

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post #205 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 02:11 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by SteveH
IMHO, the design lacked current and speakers did not open-up with low volume levels (potentially because of the National Semiconductor chip) and the bottom end was all but missing in comparison to amps that doubled down and were able to handle difficult loads.

I'm not a fan of chip amplifiers unless I'm seeking low powered
amplification for light duty work. Comparing a 'chip amplifier' with limited
abilities to a more powerful amplifier is not really a far fight. A more
interesting battle would be to operate that chip amplifier within it's
operational parameters and then take any megabucks high end amplifier
and calibrate it to operate at the same level, it will be difficult to tell
a difference.




The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #206 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 03:05 PM
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Like I said thread continues to grow!!Just got home and here is my second 402..Going to get my 3rd one right now.Was given link to a place that sells local for The prices of ebay shipped.So hopefully I can shar emy experience with all 3 amps running later..

I'd say try plugging all equipment into same outlet to see if that clears up ground hum..I had one a couple of days ago and this worked for me..As far as clicking and such, something is wrong!!Send it back right away! I can only hear a slight buzz within 8" to right up on my speaker..

brickie

AM I THE ONLY OASIS IN THE DESERT OF STUPIDITY......" SIR BRICKENBOCKER"
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post #207 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 03:20 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by brickie
Like I said thread continues to grow!!Just got home and here is my second 402..Going to get my 3rd one right now.Was given link to a place that sells local for The prices of ebay shipped.So hopefully I can shar emy experience with all 3 amps running later..

I'd say try plugging all equipment into same outlet to see if that clears up ground hum..I had one a couple of days ago and this worked for me..As far as clicking and such, something is wrong!!Send it back right away! I can only hear a slight buzz within 8" to right up on my speaker..

brickie

Since you are valued Crown customer, do you think you can
persuade them to send you a pdf file of their service manual for
the XLS lineup ----- so we can google and the circuit design



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #208 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 03:23 PM
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I thought their was a link posted for such..I'm going to call them and i will be sure to mention it..

brickie

AM I THE ONLY OASIS IN THE DESERT OF STUPIDITY......" SIR BRICKENBOCKER"
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post #209 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 03:46 PM
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I jumped on the bandwagon. (Thanks Brickie)

Question is, any concerns with the quality of the XLR-RCA adapter signal? I'll be connecting $$$ of equipment through this $10 adapter. I saw one of these in Fry's yesterday and took it apart. The wiring inside looked like low grade telephone wire.

KeepItInCool,
Your tecnec link has different options for XLR-RCA cables. Do you know what the difference is? (e.g. XLRJ vs. XLM-P vs packaged XLM-P vs plain XLR male)

Appreciate the help.
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post #210 of 4989 Old 07-09-2004, 03:53 PM
 
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Quote:


Question is, any concerns with the quality of the XLR-RCA adapter signal? I'll be connecting $$$ of equipment through this $10 adapter. I saw one of these in Fry's yesterday and took it apart. The wiring inside looked like low grade telephone wire.

take apart almost any preamp/receiver/amplifier and you will find the same type of wire.....
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