Audioholics review of the Emotiva MPS-1 seven channel amplifier - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 121 Old 05-24-2005, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is the review.

http://www.audioholics.com/productre...tivaMPS1p1.php

Looks pretty impressive.
I just bought an Outlaw 770 amp 200 watt X 7... I hope I didn't make a mistake.

Craig

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post #2 of 121 Old 05-24-2005, 08:53 AM
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You might take comfort in this thread. Although it's not a conclusive test, it's more scientific than most.

Edit: Emotiva is **********'s line of electronics, right?
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post #3 of 121 Old 05-24-2005, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraoch
You might take comfort in this thread. Although it's not a conclusive test, it's more scientific than most.

Edit: Emotiva is **********'s line of electronics, right?
Looks like a good thread with an interesting link... now if only the link wood work. :(

Craig

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post #4 of 121 Old 05-24-2005, 09:47 AM
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I like that they at least point out the negative aspects, but why do reviewers always have to appologize for them, and them give them a great star rating at the end? They say, "this was the first amp I tested that did not meet its power specification", but then they go on to suggest that we "not get caught up in power games" and give Measured Power 4 1/2 out of five stars. Also, "the 77dB @ 1 watt number isn’t flattering to say the least", but then said that it "sounded as silent as other amps I have measured with significantly lower noise floors" and gave it 4 stars. 77 db gets four stars?! I'd hate to see what gets 2. I'm sure it's a fine amp, but some day, somehow, we have to get past this alergic reaction to saying anything bad about a reviewed product in the home theater world.

It CAN make a difference in quality. Case in point: the review magazines and TV shows for console and computer games are notoriously tough. Most movie license games are bad, and they always get bad reviews. Now, some of the movie companies are assessing fines to game companies if their movie license games don't get above a minimum aggregate score.

Chris
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post #5 of 121 Old 05-24-2005, 12:14 PM
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I posted the following comments on the AV123 board concerning this review:

Quote:
Interesting that they did not review the Emo pre/pro. For those who don't know, they reviewed the Sunfire TG3 a few years ago and pretty much trashed it, in a review which has since been softened a bit. As a Sunfire owner, I didn't agree with their review; but was hoping that there good relationship with Mark would bring an Emo review, with, hopefully, some comprarisons.

As far as the amp goes, I have two comments: I am a bit surprised that the review comes across as positive when they state that it doesn't meet published specs (they had to go to 1% distortion to get the rated output); and secondly I have wondered ever since the amp came out why it is so heavy, if it is Class H. In Sunfire's application of Class H they eliminate most of the heat sinking because it's not needed; Emo not only includes heat sinking but fans as well, and I just wondered why that was, since they both use variable rail volatages.
One poster replied that they (Audioholics) were in fact working on a review of the Emo pre/pro; and there were a couple of explanations for why the amp is so heavy (7 separate transormers, and just the way the card cage construction is made, with lots of copper shielding.

If there is a review coming of the Emo pre/pro; I hope they define what differences they can between that and Sunfire TG4 (a question that I've never seen answered). There are obvious cosmetic differences, and a couple of Sunfire features that Emo doesn't use, from my understading (option to update firmware by specially encoded music CD, and "Sonic Holigraphy"); but other than that the internals could be almost the same, slightly tweaked, or completely different (well, not completely). Depends on what they are defining the core as. Comparing feature sets the Emo and Sunfire are much closer than say a Anthem, a B&K, and a Halo, all of which use the same digital front end (made by the Co that used to be Flextronics).

Hal
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post #6 of 121 Old 05-24-2005, 12:51 PM
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I’ll never understand why someone would spend 2000.00 on an inferior product. Spend the money and get a Bryston, Krell, or other high-end amp or take that 2000.00 and get yourself a very high end receiver.

I really think you should either jump into the deep end and get into separates or you shouldn’t. If you can afford 2000.00 wait and spend 3000.00 or 4000.00 and get a product that you’ll be using for 15 years.

Now I suppose that’s just my opinion. I really don’t mean to offend anyone that may have purchased Outlaw or similar amps.
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post #7 of 121 Old 05-24-2005, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Ohdee~
I’ll never understand why someone would spend 2000.00 on an inferior product. Spend the money and get a Bryston, Krell, or other high-end amp or take that 2000.00 and get yourself a very high end receiver.

I really think you should either jump into the deep end and get into separates or you shouldn’t. If you can afford 2000.00 wait and spend 3000.00 or 4000.00 and get a product that you’ll be using for 15 years.

Now I suppose that’s just my opinion. I really don’t mean to offend anyone that may have purchased Outlaw or similar amps.

Based on his review: "The Emotiva MPS-1 is truly an excellent multi-channel amplifier regardless of price. It has an audiophile sonic signature and appearance to appease the serious music aficionado and home theater enthusiast, with enough power reserves to quench even the hardest partying crowds"

What do you think is better for even 1000 more? What is up with the love fest with bryston and Krell? I know they are good, but I don't think they are that good.
Gemstones rate pretty well against them for much less $$, and based on this review, I would say the emotiva does also.
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post #8 of 121 Old 05-24-2005, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Ohdee~
I’ll never understand why someone would spend 2000.00 on an inferior product. Spend the money and get a Bryston, Krell, or other high-end amp or take that 2000.00 and get yourself a very high end receiver.

I really think you should either jump into the deep end and get into separates or you shouldn’t. If you can afford 2000.00 wait and spend 3000.00 or 4000.00 and get a product that you’ll be using for 15 years.

Now I suppose that’s just my opinion. I really don’t mean to offend anyone that may have purchased Outlaw or similar amps.
15 years?? :p :p :p :p
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post #9 of 121 Old 05-24-2005, 08:34 PM
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the reviewer gives it "5 out of 5 stars" overall and the amp can't even meet it's published specifications?????

the entire credibility of the review is worthless!!!

as was mentioned earlier in this thread... why would ANYONE buy a separate home theater amp that cannot even meet it's published specs????.... (they called it an "inferior product")

there are many brands out there that actually MEET their published specs...

i would avoid this amp like the plague

gabriel
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post #10 of 121 Old 05-24-2005, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabrielks
the reviewer gives it "5 out of 5 stars" overall and the amp can't even meet it's published specifications?????

the entire credibility of the review is worthless!!!

as was mentioned earlier in this thread... why would ANYONE buy a separate home theater amp that cannot even meet it's published specs????.... (they called it an "inferior product")

there are many brands out there that actually MEET their published specs...

i would avoid this amp like the plague
Well let's see here.... I know it may be a strange concept but I'd just have to guess the reviewer liked what he was hearing. Anyone can read all the spec sheets they want but the final decision will come down to how does it sound to you.
That's why they PLAY every game..
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post #11 of 121 Old 05-24-2005, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EC55
Well let's see here.... I know it may be a strange concept but I'd just have to guess the reviewer liked what he was hearing. Anyone can read all the spec sheets they want but the final decision will come down to how does it sound to you.
That's why they PLAY every game..

your choice

but i would rather buy an amplifier that can actually meet it's published specs....

if i wanted to buy an multichannel amplifier that could not meet it's published specs - i would buy a receiver....

but if you would rather buy something that is just puffed up in it's advertisements.... good for you....

gabriel
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post #12 of 121 Old 05-24-2005, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabrielks
your choice

but i would rather buy an amplifier that can actually meet it's published specs....

if i wanted to buy an multichannel amplifier that could not meet it's published specs - i would buy a receiver....

but if you would rather buy something that is just puffed up in it's advertisements.... good for you....

your choice

but I'd rather buy audio gear because I like the sound it produces not because some spec sheet says this or that. Being this is America you go on buying what ever you want & I'll do the same.... later.......... :rolleyes:
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post #13 of 121 Old 05-24-2005, 09:39 PM
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Well, let's see here.....the reviewer did say the amp has an "audiophile sonic signature" so accuracy of data is not important? Just buy it?:rolleyes:

With cables, the focus is on electron flow and margin to the dealer; not the immense change that can occur....
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post #14 of 121 Old 05-24-2005, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sullyj
Well, let's see here.....the reviewer did say the amp has an "audiophile sonic signature" so accuracy of data is not important? Just buy it?:rolleyes:
Well if you can get that out of my 2 post then you obviously have much better eyesight than I do.... :rolleyes:
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post #15 of 121 Old 05-24-2005, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabrielks
your choice

but i would rather buy an amplifier that can actually meet it's published specs....

if i wanted to buy an multichannel amplifier that could not meet it's published specs - i would buy a receiver....

but if you would rather buy something that is just puffed up in it's advertisements.... good for you....
Good for you. I am fine with that position too, as long as your consistent with other products. You would not be able to purchase many Pioneer, Denon, or Yamaha products or many others for that matter.


As for me, I really don't care if it meets its published specs as long as it has more than enough power, sounds great, and a great price. Based on the review, I would buy this amp, whereas before, I thought it was just another amp.
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post #16 of 121 Old 05-24-2005, 11:47 PM
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I have heard it in a very impressive HT & was awed by the performance of this guys system. Not by any means saying the amp was the most important part, but it was not holding the performance back in any way shape or form that I could hear.

I think I would rather have the mighty Anthem Statement P-5, but it is neither 7 channel, nor available for anywhere near $2000.00 & would require a visit from an electrician.

It will meet its published specs though if that floats your boat.
damon

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post #17 of 121 Old 05-25-2005, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisDixon
I like that they at least point out the negative aspects, but why do reviewers always have to appologize for them, and them give them a great star rating at the end?
Maybe because just like most of the mainstream print magazines. They worry that the ruffling of too many feathers may cost a loss of possible future ad revenue.
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post #18 of 121 Old 05-25-2005, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattburk
Good for you. I am fine with that position too, as long as your consistent with other products. You would not be able to purchase many Pioneer, Denon, or Yamaha products or many others for that matter.


As for me, I really don't care if it meets its published specs as long as it has more than enough power, sounds great, and a great price. Based on the review, I would buy this amp, whereas before, I thought it was just another amp.
If you can't trust bthe published specs, how do you know if the power is even close to what they claim? If you knew the specs, one could at least determine the approx headroom based on listening habits.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Ohdee~
I’ll never understand why someone would spend 2000.00 on an inferior product. Spend the money and get a Bryston, Krell, or other high-end amp or take that 2000.00 and get yourself a very high end receiver.

I really think you should either jump into the deep end and get into separates or you shouldn’t. If you can afford 2000.00 wait and spend 3000.00 or 4000.00 and get a product that you’ll be using for 15 years.

Now I suppose that’s just my opinion. I really don’t mean to offend anyone that may have purchased Outlaw or similar amps.
I'm in TOTAL agreement.

And this statement:

but was hoping that there good relationship with Mark would bring an Emo review

Explains why it got a decent review but yet again another AV123 product measures poorly. Maybe they were supposed to be photo only samples? :eek:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DQ10
I'm in TOTAL agreement.

And this statement:

but was hoping that there good relationship with Mark would bring an Emo review

Explains why it got a decent review but yet again another AV123 product measures poorly. Maybe they were supposed to be photo only samples? :eek:
TROLL ALERT!!!! :p :p :p
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post #21 of 121 Old 05-25-2005, 08:29 AM
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What do you think is better for even 1000 more? What is up with the love fest with bryston and Krell? I know they are good, but I don't think they are that good.

You don't THINK they are that good??? :p

That's the thing when it comes to Bryston and Krell. It's not a matter of thinking as all you have to do is read. Unlike some amplifiers the above mentioned companies amps actually do what they claim.

Every Bryston amplifier is burnt in at 100% power for 100 consecutive hours before it leaves the factory.

Oh ya, then they throw in a 20-year transferable warranty.

But ya know, I don't THINK they are THAT good either??? :p
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post #22 of 121 Old 05-25-2005, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattburk

What do you think is better for even 1000 more? What is up with the love fest with bryston and Krell? I know they are good, but I don't think they are that good.

You don't THINK they are that good??? :p

That's the thing when it comes to Bryston and Krell. It's not a matter of thinking as all you have to do is read. Unlike some amplifiers the above mentioned companies amps actually do what they claim.

Every Bryston amplifier is burnt in at 100% power for 100 consecutive hours before it leaves the factory.

Oh ya, then they throw in a 20-year transferable warranty.

But ya know, I don't THINK they are THAT good either??? :p
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post #23 of 121 Old 05-25-2005, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DQ10
I'm in TOTAL agreement.

And this statement:

but was hoping that there good relationship with Mark would bring an Emo review

Explains why it got a decent review but yet again another AV123 product measures poorly. Maybe they were supposed to be photo only samples? :eek:
It seems the Don Quixote nickname I gave to Soundstage lives on. :)

Rgds,
Curtis
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post #24 of 121 Old 05-25-2005, 09:03 AM
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I know of and like Bryston. The 20 year warranty is impressive. I know very few people however that think of their products as cutting edge amplification.

The receiver that can reproduce what I heard last Saturday does not exist. Ahh, how nice it would be to have that compromise free system!! Get real, where does such a thing exist? Even if you have all the money in the world, you happen to also have the perfect room acoustically to put it in within your existing structure? I guess you just build from scratch in fantasy land.

Should we not just jump to Halcros & be done with this conversation or do some of us need an entire audio chain to hear & enjoy?
damon

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post #25 of 121 Old 05-25-2005, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow 8
TROLL ALERT!!!! :p :p :p
;)
Its alright to have an opinion, but take a look at the posters with negative comments on this thread and the majority of them don't even have 50 or 60 posts.
To each their own I guess.
One of these days I will have the privilege to here this amp. :)

Just looked at the Fedex site... my piece of crap low end Outlaw770 was just delivered. :D Gonna be hard to not play with it and work on my home theater instead.

Craig

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Ohdee~
I’ll never understand why someone would spend 2000.00 on an inferior product. Spend the money and get a Bryston, Krell, or other high-end amp or take that 2000.00 and get yourself a very high end receiver.

I really think you should either jump into the deep end and get into separates or you shouldn’t. If you can afford 2000.00 wait and spend 3000.00 or 4000.00 and get a product that you’ll be using for 15 years.

Now I suppose that’s just my opinion. I really don’t mean to offend anyone that may have purchased Outlaw or similar amps.
We blind tested the MPS-1/DMC-1 against the Stereophile Class "A", $4600 two channel McIntosh MA-6900. The MPS-1 stayed, the McIntosh went.

This was in two channel mode.

And for home theater, the EMO gear totally dominated a Denon 5803 in every aspect, as in not even close.
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post #27 of 121 Old 05-25-2005, 11:48 AM
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Heya Chris. I hope you don't mind me posting here in response to your comment. I read the review and the sentence you quoted was a bit longer:

In any event, the 77dB @ 1 watt number isn’t flattering to say the least, but given the unique amplifier topology, I suspect the out of band switching noise is producing a non representative number since noise was never an audible issue in real world listening tests. When using the Yamaha RX-V2500 as the preamp for the Emotiva MPS-1, the set-up was dead quiet and sounded as silent as other amps I have measured with significantly lower noise floors.

This was taken from:
http://www.audioholics.com/productre...tivaMPS1p5.php

In several areas of the review, he points out the fact that his measuring equipment is not quite set up for this type of amplifier.

Regards,

Sean

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisDixon
I like that they at least point out the negative aspects, but why do reviewers always have to appologize for them, and them give them a great star rating at the end? They say, "this was the first amp I tested that did not meet its power specification", but then they go on to suggest that we "not get caught up in power games" and give Measured Power 4 1/2 out of five stars. Also, "the 77dB @ 1 watt number isn’t flattering to say the least", but then said that it "sounded as silent as other amps I have measured with significantly lower noise floors" and gave it 4 stars. 77 db gets four stars?! I'd hate to see what gets 2. I'm sure it's a fine amp, but some day, somehow, we have to get past this alergic reaction to saying anything bad about a reviewed product in the home theater world.

It CAN make a difference in quality. Case in point: the review magazines and TV shows for console and computer games are notoriously tough. Most movie license games are bad, and they always get bad reviews. Now, some of the movie companies are assessing fines to game companies if their movie license games don't get above a minimum aggregate score.

Chris

Owner - Skiing Ninja Systems
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post #28 of 121 Old 05-25-2005, 11:55 AM
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Hi Gabriel. Just a quick note here. The amp does meet it's published specs. We measured the amp and that is how the spec was derived. We did not make something up and then hope it could do it ;) Gene measured the amp differently than us and with different parameters so he gets a different number. Nothing wrong with that. Also nothing wrong if you don't buy the MPS-1 based on this. I just wanted to note that it does indeed meet it's spec and our test is even published in the article.

Also, not that this matters one bit if you are looking purely at specs but they were hitting 120dB according to the article. How loud do you listen? :D

Regards,

Sean



Quote:
Originally Posted by gabrielks
the reviewer gives it "5 out of 5 stars" overall and the amp can't even meet it's published specifications?????

the entire credibility of the review is worthless!!!

as was mentioned earlier in this thread... why would ANYONE buy a separate home theater amp that cannot even meet it's published specs????.... (they called it an "inferior product")

there are many brands out there that actually MEET their published specs...

i would avoid this amp like the plague

Owner - Skiing Ninja Systems
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post #29 of 121 Old 05-25-2005, 11:58 AM
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Am I the only one not all that worried by the 175W measurements?
Even 175W x 7 with a replaceable card-based chassis seems like a good feature set for $2000. Also, the measurement technique of the reviewer was quite different from (and arguably better than) that of AV123.
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post #30 of 121 Old 05-25-2005, 12:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Parque
Hi Gabriel. Just a quick note here. The amp does meet it's published specs. We measured the amp and that is how the spec was derived. We did not make something up and then hope it could do it ;) Gene measured the amp differently than us and with different parameters so he gets a different number. Nothing wrong with that. Also nothing wrong if you don't buy the MPS-1 based on this. I just wanted to note that it does indeed meet it's spec and our test is even published in the article.

Also, not that this matters one bit if you are looking purely at specs but they were hitting 120dB according to the article. How loud do you listen? :D

Regards,

Sean
Thanks but I'll trust an independent review long before I trust manufacturer's specs. High end amps also tend to have damping factors well above 200 whilst the Emo seems to be a bit above 50.

Especially when you came up with your specs by:

According to Emotiva, this measurement was taken at 4 ohms (1% purely resistive load) and with a line voltage of 120V ac (1KHz input frequency). In this graph you can see they achieved 300W at 1% THD. Though my contention here was they were using an automated script in Audio Precision to find maximum power of the amplifier whereas my tests were using continuous tones. What likely occurred here is their measurement captured the power of the amplifier before the clamping circuit kicked in and limited the power output. This is a common measurement some publications use which I don't really like for that very reason. I like seeing steady state full bandwidth power response to see what the amp is really doing.

I was able to achieve a maximum unclipped power of 175wpc into 8 ohms with Vin=1.65V Vout=37.39V unbalanced and about 255wpc into a 4 ohm load with Vin = 1.42V and Vout = 32V. Once I exceeded these measurements, the clamping circuit kicked in rounding off the signal and dramatically increasing distortion. Based on this, I would rate this amp to be a 175wpc into 8 ohms and 270wpc into 4 ohm, not 200wpc / 300wpc 8/4 ohm respectively like Emotiva rated in their literature.

When I informed Emotiva on my findings, they suggested that my test conditions were preventing me from achieving their published ratings due to line voltage sag. I respectively disagree since I was only testing one channel and monitored my line voltage to be a constant 124Vrms throughout the entire test. In addition, this was the first amp I tested that did not meet its power specification. However, please note this is also the first amplifier I tested with a thoughtful limiter circuit which does make it a bit tricky to accurately test.
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