The "Official" Denon AVR-4806 Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 2715 Old 08-10-2005, 09:27 PM
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Yes, auto cal runs through fine, sub sounds normal during auto cal. Detects sub no problem.

Now there's zero signal to the sub in any EQ mode.
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post #182 of 2715 Old 08-10-2005, 10:09 PM
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OK, so I go examine the channel levels after my last auto cal. The sub is at -12dB while everything else is jacked up around +5dB!

Also, I found that when manually setting the speakers to small (after auto cal sets everything to large), the crossovers do work as they're supposed to. I set all my speakers at 80Hz with the Sub at 80Hz and that helped as well. I was confused from an earlier post that said that these settings didn't matter?

So, the panic has subsided. Not sure what has changed since the first couple auto cals I did which produced satisfactory results.

Needless to say, I'm not currently impressed with the consistency of auto cal, except for speaker delay/distances (these are right on). Maybe I'm doing something wrong - I guess it's time to read through the manual.

I'm having fun playing, except when I thought my Velodyne crapped out !
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post #183 of 2715 Old 08-11-2005, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertynerd View Post

OK, so I go examine the channel levels after my last auto cal. The sub is at -12dB while everything else is jacked up around +5dB!

Also, I found that when manually setting the speakers to small (after auto cal sets everything to large), the crossovers do work as they're supposed to. I set all my speakers at 80Hz with the Sub at 80Hz and that helped as well. I was confused from an earlier post that said that these settings didn't matter?

So, the panic has subsided. Not sure what has changed since the first couple auto cals I did which produced satisfactory results.

Needless to say, I'm not currently impressed with the consistency of auto cal, except for speaker delay/distances (these are right on). Maybe I'm doing something wrong - I guess it's time to read through the manual.

I'm having fun playing, except when I thought my Velodyne crapped out !

Mine is also at -12db and that maybe correct. One of the main things the EQ does is get the bass right (not muddy) although some folks do like their subs shaking walls and windows
Read some of my posts about placing the microphone at the right place.
Take care.
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post #184 of 2715 Old 08-11-2005, 04:43 PM
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Minus 12 dB is a huge correction! I would suspect that your subs-related to seating position(s) are creating a significant acoustic problem for MultEQ to try to solve. Of course, there may be something wrong with the receiver.

That sounds like a question for Chris at Audyssey. See if you can find him here on the forum and get him in on it. I would like to hear how this gets resolved.

Qwerty, check your pm.
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post #185 of 2715 Old 08-11-2005, 04:59 PM
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I think all of us Denon/Audyssey owners need to verify what Audyssey is doing by using an external source, such as AVIA, etc....
I'm not saying Audyssey isn't doing it right, but a second opinion would bring some peace of mind!

dc

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post #186 of 2715 Old 08-11-2005, 05:06 PM
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Certainly a good idea, but not easy to do accurately. I have looked at my room using a Senccore SP295 RTA. What I cannot see with that device is time domain analysis. Another thing I have yet to do is verify what the receiver is doing in some different configurations (LFE/THX, LFE+Main, crossver slopes, LPF slopes, etc) via electrical measurement with the RTA. I would like to know what is being sent out of those preamp outs.
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post #187 of 2715 Old 08-11-2005, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

Minus 12 dB is a huge correction! I would suspect that your subs-related to seating position(s) are creating a significant acoustic problem for MultEQ to try to solve. Of course, there may be something wrong with the receiver.

That sounds like a question for Chris at Audyssey. See if you can find him here on the forum and get him in on it. I would like to hear how this gets resolved.

Qwerty, check your pm.

I have used the Pioneer MCACC in the past and the result as far as sub is concerned was the same. In my case I have 4 full-speakers and the sub is quite powerful (goes up to 850W) so it maybe taming it down. The sub in question is from Infinity, so it has their bass-correction procedure which I have not tried yet but will to see whether it improves anything. The sub is in the left-hand corner and this is a heavy puppy to move around (more than 60 pounds) plus I have to keep it away from the kids
Bottom line it has to stay where it is. I'll try the Infinity Rabos this weekend and will see (it makes you plot the lines and all).
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post #188 of 2715 Old 08-11-2005, 07:00 PM
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"In my case I have 4 full-speakers and the sub is quite powerful (goes up to 850W)..."

It might be diffucult to tell, but might you be exacerbating the low frequency response issues (if there are any) running full range on the "full-speakers" and a powerful sub? It is possible that you are summing a lot of bass to a level that is not faithful to the mix. MultEQ may be having to deal with that.

RABOS is an excellent feature; a little time consuming, but effective. I have helped several friends use this feature when they upgraded their system. I have yet to use a sub with RABOS and MultEQxt. I will be doing so soon to help a friend. I was up in the air on how to handle that. I think I will first do a mode calc and see if it predicts any problems, RTA measure the sub response in the room before any calibration, then give MultEQxt a chance...then measure again and listen. If I were to use the RABOS with MultEQxt, I would do the RABOS calibration first, then MultEQxt auto cal (or re-cal).
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post #189 of 2715 Old 08-11-2005, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

"In my case I have 4 full-speakers and the sub is quite powerful (goes up to 850W)..."

It might be diffucult to tell, but might you be exacerbating the low frequency response issues (if there are any) running full range on the "full-speakers" and a powerful sub? It is possible that you are summing a lot of bass to a level that is not faithful to the mix. MultEQ may be having to deal with that.

RABOS is an excellent feature; a little time consuming, but effective. I have helped several friends use this feature when they upgraded their system. I have yet to use a sub with RABOS and MultEQxt. I will be doing so soon to help a friend. I was up in the air on how to handle that. I think I will first do a mode calc and see if it predicts any problems, RTA measure the sub response in the room before any calibration, then give MultEQxt a chance...then measure again and listen. If I were to use the RABOS with MultEQxt, I would do the RABOS calibration first, then MultEQxt auto cal (or re-cal).

Maybe but unlikely. Running the speakers as Small and crossing over to the sub gives (at least in my case) very poor results. I just watched a movie today and it was fine the sub kicked in when it should. The RABOS instructions says to "0" the level and then run it (I can turn EQ off). A valid test is to go through the RABOS setup without EQ and with EQ to see the difference. In the audioholics review of the 5805 they did find out the sub wasn't being corrected as it should and Denon would provide a fix.
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post #190 of 2715 Old 08-11-2005, 10:06 PM
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"Maybe but unlikely."

And you probably won't know for sure unless you get hold of an RTA and measure everything. Find out what is coming out of the pre-outs for the mains and for the sub, measure acoustically the sub alone with no RABOS or EQ, do the same for the mains without the sub, then do the calibrations and measure again. I know, it's a bit of hipocracy, as I have not measured those pre-outs yet. Maybe tomorrow. I'll post when accomplished.
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post #191 of 2715 Old 08-12-2005, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sergiohm View Post

Mine is also at -12db and that maybe correct. One of the main things the EQ does is get the bass right (not muddy) although some folks do like their subs shaking walls and windows
Read some of my posts about placing the microphone at the right place.
Take care.

Ditto here on the -12db sub setting. I'm becoming a bit suspicious regarding this trend.
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post #192 of 2715 Old 08-12-2005, 04:38 PM
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The update set my sub at +1.5db.
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post #193 of 2715 Old 08-13-2005, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

Minus 12 dB is a huge correction! I would suspect that your subs-related to seating position(s) are creating a significant acoustic problem for MultEQ to try to solve. Of course, there may be something wrong with the receiver.

Or the actual volume on the subwoofer itself is set too high and the Denon is having to correct for this.
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post #194 of 2715 Old 08-13-2005, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swatter911 View Post

The update set my sub at +1.5db.

What update???
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post #195 of 2715 Old 08-13-2005, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jase H View Post

Or the actual volume on the subwoofer itself is set too high and the Denon is having to correct for this.

Actually Pioneer MCACC recommends setting the sub to the highest volume, I assumed Denon Audyssey would do the same. Plus I do not think it makes much of a difference where the volume is trimmed (or does it?)
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post #196 of 2715 Old 08-13-2005, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sergiohm View Post

Actually Pioneer MCACC recommends setting the sub to the highest volume, I assumed Denon Audyssey would do the same. Plus I do not think it makes much of a difference where the volume is trimmed (or does it?)

Hmmm, dunno. I have my volume on the sub set high. Maybe that's why the -12db?
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post #197 of 2715 Old 08-13-2005, 09:19 AM
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I'd turn the volume on your subs down chaps. Having them set high only means that the amp has to compensate and turn the SW channel level down to be able to balance the channels. Try the sub volume at around a third or halfway.

-12db is the lowest the SW channel can be turned down to before being switched off completely. If your Sub volume is too high you might have a case where the amp can't actually lower it as much as it needs to. Even set to -12db might not be low enough.
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post #198 of 2715 Old 08-13-2005, 11:22 AM
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I was unable to electrically measure the pre-outs with my RTA. I will get a friend who has one that will do this, and has a 4806, do it for us.

This discussion of sub volume settings is interesting. What subs are you guys using?

This sounds like a gain structure issue. If you have had a THX certified sub, you have noticed that there is a THX position, and non-THX position. The THX position is volume full up, no filtering; the task is left to the controller/receiver to provide the filtering and gain setting. A benefit of THX that is not widely discussed is the designed gain structure. Starting back in the decoder on your receiver/controller's chip, and proceeding through to the speakers, THX certified products follow a specific gain structure so that a predictable (and target) reference SPL at the listening location will be achievable.

I wonder if the sensitivity of your subs (presumably non-THX) is such that full up on their volume puts the sub in the "odd man out" position of being too much for the receiver to handle. Either way, as Jase suggests, turn it down using incremental steps and try it out.

I'm using two Klipsch Ultra2 subs in acoustically nominal positions at a distance of about 6 feet, and the sub level lands at +1.5dB after auto cal.
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post #199 of 2715 Old 08-13-2005, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

I was unable to electrically measure the pre-outs with my RTA. I will get a friend who has one that will do this, and has a 4806, do it for us.

This discussion of sub volume settings is interesting. What subs are you guys using?

Mine is the Infinity INTERMEZZO 1.2S - 12" 850-Watt (RMS). I'll try the Rabos tomorrow, it does help set up the subwoofer volume.
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post #200 of 2715 Old 08-13-2005, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swatter911 View Post

The update set my sub at +1.5db.

what update?
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post #201 of 2715 Old 08-13-2005, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid1 View Post

Hmmm, dunno. I have my volume on the sub set high. Maybe that's why the -12db?

I have an SVS PC Ultra set at about 1/3rd volume, and the autosetup set it at - 3db, and it certainly doesn't sound base challenged. The huge bolders landing in ROTK shake the floor joists pretty well.

Allen
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post #202 of 2715 Old 08-14-2005, 06:42 AM
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I have the 4806 and have a SD-5970 DVD and HDTivo attached via HDMI and they just don't work very well. I also notice my MULTI indicator is on the 4806, I'm not using any other zones but I can't see how to turn this off or even if this is an issue or not.

When watching a DTS movie, if I skip chapters I lose the sound and have to hit source on the 4806 to get it back. Does anyone else see this??

I'm using monster HDMI (1000 series) connections and a HDMI2DVI connection to an H79 projector.

Also is it just me or do HDMI connections not feel real snug?

Any advice would be great as I'm going nuts....

HS

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post #203 of 2715 Old 08-14-2005, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hackshack View Post

I have the 4806 and have a SD-5970 DVD and HDTivo attached via HDMI and they just don't work very well. I also notice my MULTI indicator is on the 4806, I'm not using any other zones but I can't see how to turn this off or even if this is an issue or not.

When watching a DTS movie, if I skip chapters I lose the sound and have to hit source on the 4806 to get it back. Does anyone else see this??

I'm using monster HDMI (1000 series) connections and a HDMI2DVI connection to an H79 projector.

Also is it just me or do HDMI connections not feel real snug?

Any advice would be great as I'm going nuts....

HS

Read page 96 (of the manual). When you assign a Function (DVD, VDP, etc.) with an HDMI input, it will default to the audio coming from the HDMI connection. Since most likely neither your DVD or Tivo-HD pass DD/DTS audio through HDMI, you have to go page 89 and reassign the "Digital In" for the DVD and Tivo-HD; if you are using IEEE1394 with the DVD then you need to go to page 92 and reassing the IEEE1394 with a Function (DVD, VDP, etc.); in this case it would most likely be your DVD.
This explanation is on page 97: "With HDMI, the video and audio signals are transferred simultaneously. When HDMI is assigned to an input source, the digital audio input assignment switches to HDMI along with the video input. When this setting is made for input sources to which a digital audio input (DENON LINK, IEEE1394 etc.) is previously assigned, the digital audio assignment is set to HDMI.In this case, reassign the digital input using the procedure described at Digital In Assign ( page 89) and IEEE1394 Assign ( page 92)."

The image should show up regardless but you need to check whether the particular device you're connecting is compatible with an HDMI input resolution of 480i or 576i; otherwise you won't be able to see the Setup menu or the OSD display.
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post #204 of 2715 Old 08-14-2005, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Abell2218 View Post

what update?

Sorry, I was referring to the 5805 update with the Audyssey fix. Supposedly this is going to trickle down to the 4806 as well.
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post #205 of 2715 Old 08-14-2005, 10:26 AM
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Swatter, where did you access the 5805 upgrade?

Chris told me this week that he thought Denon had just released the 4806 upgrade...or that it was immanent.
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post #206 of 2715 Old 08-14-2005, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

Swatter, where did you access the 5805 upgrade?

Chris told me this week that he thought Denon had just released the 4806 upgrade...or that it was immanent.

Another user emailed me the beta he had received from Denon. My understanding is that the Audyssey fixes in the 5805 firmware would also be in the 4806 release that is forthcoming. I don't have any inside info on this, just what I've gleaned from the threads. The firmware upgrade now correctly sets my speaker size, crossovers and subwoofer. It made a noticeable improvement in the sound with the Audyssey EQ engaged. I don't have access to an RTA, but to my untrained ears It sounds like it's manging my sub correctly now. Bass is a lot less "boomy".
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post #207 of 2715 Old 08-14-2005, 12:07 PM
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Sounds promising! Thanks.
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post #208 of 2715 Old 08-15-2005, 12:52 PM
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" Bass is a lot less "boomy"."

So, only less boominess, but not completely free of it (same as my HK 635)?

Noah
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post #209 of 2715 Old 08-15-2005, 01:25 PM
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Don't think I would want a system that was totaly free of base boominess. Some bass is boomy. What I want is one that is not overly boomy. Can't tell from Swatter911's post the degree of "boominess reduction".

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post #210 of 2715 Old 08-15-2005, 02:10 PM
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The whole "boomy" thing is very dependent on reverberant acoustic characteristics of the environment. Low reverb time typically results in "tight" bass, but usually giving the perception of less overall bass amplitude. Rooms with long decay times tend to stack up the reverberating bass creating the perception of lots of bass, but at the cost of "boominess." That is why Dr. Floyd Toole and others developed the low frequency response target curve in JBL Synthesis systems. The presumption was that nominally damped home theaters (those into which JBL Synthesis systems would be installed) would sound under-powered on bass. So, a curve that is about 6dB high at about 40 Hz and back to flat by about 90 Hz was developed. I've heard those systems several times, and I am always extremely impressed. That is not just attributable to good acoustics and frequency amplitude manipulation; the Synthesis digital EQ (SDEC-2500) also does significant time domain analysis and correction, somewhat similar to MultEQ. How similar, and exactly what the Audyssey target curve looks like, we are still trying to determine, measuring in several rooms.
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