Dolby Digital Enhanced, DTS-HD on the horizon - AVS Forum
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Receivers, Amps, and Processors > Dolby Digital Enhanced, DTS-HD on the horizon
David Barteaux's Avatar David Barteaux 05:34 PM 07-18-2005
Crystal Semiconductors new chip CS49500 supports upcomming Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD audio formats. http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/detail/P1049.html

How far away are these new recievers/processors? Mayby a bit more waiting for that new pre-pro?

I know the new Outlaw 990 has the CS49400 DSP which does not support these new formats at this time. Its doubtful that it will with a firmware flash as it would also need the newer chip.

B&W700guy's Avatar B&W700guy 01:05 PM 07-23-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Barteaux
Crystal Semiconductors new chip CS49500 supports upcomming Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD audio formats. http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/detail/P1049.html

How far away are these new recievers/processors? Mayby a bit more waiting for that new pre-pro?

I know the new Outlaw 990 has the CS49400 DSP which does not support these new formats at this time. Its doubtful that it will with a firmware flash as it would also need the newer chip.
I believe the new DVD-HD and Blueray will build the audio decoder in the player. Just plug it in to your 7.1 preamp inputs. The player will handle the rest.
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude 02:18 PM 07-23-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by B&W700guy
I believe the new DVD-HD and Blueray will build the audio decoder in the player. Just plug it in to your 7.1 preamp inputs. The player will handle the rest.
What good is that going to be when the new formats are more than 7.1? There's talk of up to 14 channels! :eek:
thebland's Avatar thebland 02:23 PM 07-23-2005
I am not convinced these new formats are going to give us appreciabley better sound.
B&W700guy's Avatar B&W700guy 02:55 PM 07-23-2005
I didn't know that their could be 14 channels, well I hope it is backward compatable with existing equipment. I miss the bandwidth of my DTS Laser Discs. 14 channels maybe overkill?
Woodrow's Avatar Woodrow 02:57 PM 07-23-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
I am not convinced these new formats are going to give us appreciabley better sound.
I'm willing to take that chance..
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude 04:01 PM 07-23-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
I am not convinced these new formats are going to give us appreciabley better sound.
I think you have a good reason for your skepticism. SDDS (theater only format) supports 8 channels of sound and somewhere I saw a list of all the movies that used all 8 channels in their theatrical release and it was surprisingly short considering how many movies have been released since SDDS was released.

We get DTS 5.1 and 6.1 and THX Surround EX / DD 6.1 because they are used in the theater. Unless movies are sent to theaters with 14 channels I just can't see the studios spending any serious amount of time to give people a quality 14 channel mix. They'll probably only release what's used in the theater, or do a piss poor job adding the extra channels and slap that on a DVD.
David Barteaux's Avatar David Barteaux 04:18 PM 07-23-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by B&W700guy
I believe the new DVD-HD and Blueray will build the audio decoder in the player. Just plug it in to your 7.1 preamp inputs. The player will handle the rest.
As long as we get full bass management in the player or processor on the analog inputs.
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude 04:25 PM 07-23-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Barteaux
As long as we get full bass management in the player or processor on the analog inputs.
How many DVD players have you seen that can match a good receiver or pre/pro in terms of bass management?

I wouldn't hold my breath for good bass management in players.
Woodrow's Avatar Woodrow 04:39 PM 07-23-2005
I'm bookmarking this thread just to see what the same folks have to say once they actually hear the new formats.

I predict that once we've heard for example, DTS-HD, that we'll be disappointed everytime they release a BD or HD-DVD without it.

Hoping I'm right!!!:)
B&W700guy's Avatar B&W700guy 05:08 PM 07-23-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Barteaux
As long as we get full bass management in the player or processor on the analog inputs.
Many of the pre/pros and receivers have BM for the 7.1 input. My AVR-7300 does, even though I don't use it for my DVD-A.
Woodrow's Avatar Woodrow 05:36 PM 07-23-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude
What good is that going to be when the new formats are more than 7.1? There's talk of up to 14 channels! :eek:
There's more to the new formats than the number of channels...

Here's a thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9&page=1&pp=30

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani
Mark,

You are correct, this is old news that was discussed on this forum last September when DTS first announced it DTS++ format. A month later (Oct 27th) they announced that they were changing the name to DTS-HD.

The same poster that started this thread has done the same at Home Theater Forum. He has also started threads at both forums about Dolby Digital Plus, which was announced September 23rd last year. It was discussed here at AVS around that time, mostly concentrating on bitrates and sound quality. This time, however, the thread was titled "Are you ready for Dolby Digital Plus 13.1!" and naturally the discussion centered around the number of channels (the least important aspect of DD+) instead of the new codec's improved efficiency and audio quality.

Best,
Sanjay
I've always followed Sanjay's posts and have no reason to think he is not correct.
B&W700guy's Avatar B&W700guy 05:53 PM 07-23-2005
Does anybody know the speaker layout for 13.1? sound like another 3 to 4k in speakers
mjohnson71's Avatar mjohnson71 06:13 PM 07-23-2005
WAF* of a 13.1 sound setup? Almost zero. :D

*Wife Acceptance Factor
B&W700guy's Avatar B&W700guy 06:43 PM 07-23-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjohnson71
WAF* of a 13.1 sound setup? Almost zero. :D

*Wife Acceptance Factor
Especially when playing the "Girls Gone Wild" videos
sdurani's Avatar sdurani 11:38 PM 07-23-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
I am not convinced these new formats are going to give us appreciabley better sound.
Based on what?

In the decade since Dolby Digital and DTS first came out do you actually believe that there has been zero advancement in perceptual audio coding and compression technology?

Or do you think that companies like Dolby Labs and DTS are incapable of improving their current codecs?

Sanjay
sdurani's Avatar sdurani 11:43 PM 07-23-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland
I am not convinced these new formats are going to give us appreciabley better sound.
And your sketicism is based on what?

In the decade since Dolby Digital and DTS first came out do you actually believe that there has been zero advancement in perceptual audio coding and compression technology?

Or do you think that current DD and DTS codecs are so perfect that it's impossible to improve on them?

Sanjay
Johnla's Avatar Johnla 01:21 AM 07-24-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude
What good is that going to be when the new formats are more than 7.1? There's talk of up to 14 channels!

And just how many in the general population of all the people that have a surround sound setup, also have them setup in a room that is large enough in physical size to actually support 14 channels of surround sound properly?????
I myself, would more than willing to bet that the percentage is very small.
THX1720's Avatar THX1720 10:03 AM 07-24-2005
I think 7.1 is enough. I'm sure the real change will be to higher resolution sample rates.
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude 10:53 AM 07-24-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani
And your sketicism is based on what?

In the decade since Dolby Digital and DTS first came out do you actually believe that there has been zero advancement in perceptual audio coding and compression technology?

Or do you think that current DD and DTS codecs are so perfect that it's impossible to improve on them?

Sanjay
It never ceases to amaze me. There is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence out there that most people can't tell the difference between a well encoded mp3 and the RAW CD. Both AC3 and DTS are more sophisticated than the mp3 codec. They're also compressing more than 2 channels. I don't know about you, but I find it gets harder to compare things the more channels that are playing. Other people I've talked to indicate the same thing. Comparing two speakers in stereo isn't hard. Comparing two different 7 channel speaker setups is much more difficult because you have 3.5 times the information being bombarded at you. Your ability to finely disect things is just overun with information.

The anecdotal evidence supports this too. Speakers that are pretty boring and lifeless for music sound just fine in a 5.1 HT system.

I'd bet in a controlled blind ABX test the vast majority of people couldn't tell the difference between the DTS or DD side of a DVD-A disc and the MLP side when paying a 5.1 mix.

If these people can't tell the difference between lossy compression and lossless compression on a 5.1 mix, what makes you so sure they can tell the difference between lossy and lossy, but more sophisticated?
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude 10:58 AM 07-24-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla
And just how many in the general population of all the people that have a surround sound setup, also have them setup in a room that is large enough in physical size to actually support 14 channels of surround sound properly?????
I myself, would more than willing to bet that the percentage is very small.
I'm sure you're also correct. Personally, I don't see HD-DVD or Blu-Ray selling very well, unless the studios stop putting out regular DVDs. There's going to be no reason for the average person to buy then instead of regular DVDs.
B&W700guy's Avatar B&W700guy 12:09 PM 07-24-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude
It never ceases to amaze me. There is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence out there that most people can't tell the difference between a well encoded mp3 and the RAW CD. Both AC3 and DTS are more sophisticated than the mp3 codec. They're also compressing more than 2 channels. I don't know about you, but I find it gets harder to compare things the more channels that are playing. Other people I've talked to indicate the same thing. Comparing two speakers in stereo isn't hard. Comparing two different 7 channel speaker setups is much more difficult because you have 3.5 times the information being bombarded at you. Your ability to finely disect things is just overun with information.

The anecdotal evidence supports this too. Speakers that are pretty boring and lifeless for music sound just fine in a 5.1 HT system.

I'd bet in a controlled blind ABX test the vast majority of people couldn't tell the difference between the DTS or DD side of a DVD-A disc and the MLP side when paying a 5.1 mix.

If these people can't tell the difference between lossy compression and lossless compression on a 5.1 mix, what makes you so sure they can tell the difference between lossy and lossy, but more sophisticated?
"There is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence out there that most people can't tell the difference between a well encoded mp3 and the RAW CD."

I agree, most of the people that I have spoken with cant tell the difference. But with technology in hard drives, flash and hardware/Software, I believe, one day, all music will be in an uncompressed format.

"Comparing two different 7 channel speaker setups is much more difficult because you have 3.5 times the information being bombarded at you. Your ability to finely disect things is just overun with information.
The anecdotal evidence supports this too. Speakers that are pretty boring and lifeless for music sound just fine in a 5.1 HT system."

I agree, too a certain extent. With my old 7.1 speaker system, ran all my decoding in 7.1 (stereo, DD/DTS). When I upgraded my speakers, I found that the stereo sounded much better in two channel and I never run a 7 channel matrix for standard DD/DTS. After removing my POS speakers, as you stated, you can tell the difference in all formats, without a change in my hardware. But, looking at the difference in uncompressed, DTS, per original spec used in laser disc. I found the imaging much better with my old speakers playing DTS Laser Disc's then my new speaker system playing DVD's encoded, with a watered down version of DTS. Because of this, I pulled out my old Laser Disc Player and played a few of my old DTS/Laser Disc's. Wow what a difference, sound and imaging was much better then the DVD software we purchase today! Of course the Laser Disc picture looks like crap. I have high confidence that the new HD sound formats will sound much better then today’s. If it sounds as good as my DTS Laser Disc software, I will be very pleased, and that is a 10 year old technology.

On the debate on music (DVD-A, DTS, DD) I am still listening to these formats with my new system. But, have not come up with any definite view on which is better. Need more listening time.
sdurani's Avatar sdurani 12:11 PM 07-24-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude
I'd bet in a controlled blind ABX test the vast majority of people couldn't tell the difference between the DTS or DD side of a DVD-A disc and the MLP side when paying a 5.1 mix.

If these people can't tell the difference between lossy compression and lossless compression on a 5.1 mix, what makes you so sure they can tell the difference between lossy and lossy, but more sophisticated?
If you're going to start with a foregone conclusion that listeners can't tell compressed DD from lossless 96/24 MLP, then I suppose there's no point in ever trying to improve the sound quality of current lossy codecs, is there?

But that's some premise you're starting from.

For the rest of us, there is room for improvement with current audio compression technologies, whether codec efficiency or sound quality. Apparently Dolby and DTS felt the same.

I doubt DD+ and DTS-HD will sound worse than their current counterparts, so there's no reason for manufacturers to not use the newer technology. If you're determined not to upgrade, then that won't be a problem either; next-gen soundtracks will be backwards compatible with current technology.

Sanjay
David Barteaux's Avatar David Barteaux 12:18 PM 07-24-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude
I'm sure you're also correct. Personally, I don't see HD-DVD or Blu-Ray selling very well, unless the studios stop putting out regular DVDs. There's going to be no reason for the average person to buy then instead of regular DVDs.
Disagree. HD picture alone will be superior. Alot of average guys now own HD ready sets. If the picture improvement is not so dramatic, then yes initially it will take longer to sell. Like every new format you will have to go through the early adoptor cycle untill prices drop on the players, then regular DVD will fade as did VHS.
Who knows what initial HD-DVD players will start at.
B&W700guy's Avatar B&W700guy 12:19 PM 07-24-2005
Sanjay,

Do you remember the old Laser Disc's w/DTS encoding?

Thoughts?
noah katz's Avatar noah katz 12:41 PM 07-24-2005
Re additional channels, I think the most bang for the buck would be adding two more side channels to 7.1.

Two would be mounted lowish and two high. Right now side height is a compromise between the height for ground level sounds and flyovers.

High/low fronts and rears would be ideal, which may be where the 14 comes from, but I bet the sides would give the bulk of the improvement.
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude 04:17 PM 07-24-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani
If you're going to start with a foregone conclusion that listeners can't tell compressed DD from lossless 96/24 MLP, then I suppose there's no point in ever trying to improve the sound quality of current lossy codecs, is there?

But that's some premise you're starting from.

For the rest of us, there is room for improvement with current audio compression technologies, whether codec efficiency or sound quality. Apparently Dolby and DTS felt the same.

I doubt DD+ and DTS-HD will sound worse than their current counterparts, so there's no reason for manufacturers to not use the newer technology. If you're determined not to upgrade, then that won't be a problem either; next-gen soundtracks will be backwards compatible with current technology.

Sanjay
The premise I'm starting from is that these companies are going to have a hard time selling the products they're coming out with. There's very little market demand for improved sonics over DTS and DD. Theater owners don't want to install a bunch more speakers and have to buy new equipment, and the average J6P isn't screaming for more than 5.1 (if they even have 5.1), nor are they looking for improved sonics out of the 5.1 signals they're using now.
Stereodude's Avatar Stereodude 04:23 PM 07-24-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Barteaux
Disagree. HD picture alone will be superior. Alot of average guys now own HD ready sets. If the picture improvement is not so dramatic, then yes initially it will take longer to sell. Like every new format you will have to go through the early adoptor cycle untill prices drop on the players, then regular DVD will fade as did VHS.
Who knows what initial HD-DVD players will start at.
Yes, I agree the HD picture quality will be superior, but what percentage of the population do you think has a DVI (with HDCP) or HDMI equipped set? It's not very high.

There are a lot of people out there still feeding their DVD player into their TV with an RF modulator. These people aren't clamoring for better picture quality. Heck, they want to know why they have black bars at the top and bottom of the picture they are getting.

DVD had a lot of selling points over VHS, even for J6P. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray have virtually none against regular DVD. Look at the sucess of DVD-A and SACD. A lot of people will try to point to the "format war" and claim that's the reason for the poor sales. That's nonsense... For J6P a CD sounds good enough and there's no reason to get a new "expensive" player and more expensive discs. Unfortunately, I think the same phenomenon is going to plague HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.
sdurani's Avatar sdurani 05:01 PM 07-24-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude
The premise I'm starting from is that these companies are going to have a hard time selling the products they're coming out with. There's very little market demand for improved sonics over DTS and DD.
In that case the new codecs will be a complete failure because absolutely no one will use them and you will never ever have to worry about them again. There, you've just avoided the expense of another useless upgrade. Don't you feel better already?
Quote:
Theater owners don't want to install a bunch more speakers and have to buy new equipment, and the average J6P isn't screaming for more than 5.1 (if they even have 5.1), nor are they looking for improved sonics out of the 5.1 signals they're using now.
Well, there already are theatre owners, movie studios, electronics manufacturers and consumers that years ago went beyond 5.1 channels. You forgot to inform them that no one wants more than 5.1 channels.

Sanjay
B&W700guy's Avatar B&W700guy 06:00 PM 07-24-2005
Every body relax.... Oh yea, where's my Batamax!
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