Panasonic SA-XR700(HDMI 1.3 switching, DD+/DTHD/dts-HD decoding, due in september) - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 77 Old 03-31-2006, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
KLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,716
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Posted by amillians in another thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=661422

Quote:
Originally Posted by amillians View Post

A bit more on the Panny announcement.

Panasonic has confirmed that the DMP-BD10 will upsample DVD to 1080p via HDMI (that was expected).

The "big" news is the mysterious AVR they hinted at...the Panasonic SA-XR700, which Panny hopes dealers will sell as a package with the DMP-BD10. No details or price yet on the SA-XR700, but since it's being billed as a perfect audio companion to the BD10, I'm guessing this may prove to be our first "affordable" HDMI 1.3 AVR with new codec support (I'm assuming that the delivery timeframe for both products will dovetail with HDMI 1.3).

EDIT: MDP? DMP? Meh.


This will be a very desireable AVR, IMO
KLee is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 77 Old 03-31-2006, 07:45 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,888
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1430 Post(s)
Liked: 1029
Where does it say that the receiver will have "HDMI 1.3 switching, DD+/DTHD/dts-HD"?

Sanjay

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #3 of 77 Old 03-31-2006, 07:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SiriuslyCold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: KL, Malaysia
Posts: 2,745
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
nowhere in the other thread, for sure. or any of the news articles linked there.

this is an assumption that such a receiver would have those functuions IF it came out in September timeframe

Quote:


(I'm assuming that the delivery timeframe for both products will dovetail with HDMI 1.3).

wherever amillians got the model number is anyone's guess

Boo!
SiriuslyCold is offline  
post #4 of 77 Old 04-02-2006, 05:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Raistlin_HT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY area
Posts: 2,503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I believe Panasonic announced it as a 'HD' recevier in a recent press release, and stated that it is designed to be mated with their forthcoming BluRay player (will be released at the same time).

That has led many to assume it will have HDMI 1.3.


If only Panasonic historically supported DSD, this receiver would then take advantage of SACD over HDMI. Unfortunately, that is unlikely to be the case.

If it were, I'd probably be pre-ordering this thing today.
Raistlin_HT is offline  
post #5 of 77 Old 04-02-2006, 05:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Raistlin_HT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY area
Posts: 2,503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 11
BTW - I would guess the model number to be 77.
Raistlin_HT is offline  
post #6 of 77 Old 04-12-2006, 01:37 PM
Member
 
fulminis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Austin
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
It will be interesting to see this receiver (hopefully having at least 2 HDMI ports) with other Panny HDAVI devices, such as the new Comcast/Panasonic DVR due out later this summer. Theoretically you could put together a complete Panasonic system connected solely with HDMI and controlled with a single remote control. Consider this system (pricing estimated):

TH-42PX60U ~$2400
SA-XR700 ~$500
DMR-ES15 ~$175
Comcast DVR ~$10/month

Only 3 HDMI cables required and you get SACD/DVD-Audio, completely digital signal transmission, triple tuner 250GB DVR, one remote, fully automated switching and dual layer DVD recording. That is one hell of a system for less than $3500 and it will probably only be about 10 high. I wonder what will be possible between the DVR and DVD recordercan HDMI be used to send video either way?

Anyways, I just wanted to state the obvious. Panasonic has taken the lead in the race for your living room with their deal with Comcast and HDAVI.
fulminis is offline  
post #7 of 77 Old 04-12-2006, 02:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Raistlin_HT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY area
Posts: 2,503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 11
As I stated earlier, the chances of SACD support are quite unlikely IMO.

Just because the HDMI rev supports DSD, does not imply the rest of the system does.
Raistlin_HT is offline  
post #8 of 77 Old 04-13-2006, 06:44 AM
Member
 
fulminis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Austin
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
You are probably right, but if you are that concerned with high fidelity music, then you probably shouldn't be buying Panasonic with class D amplification anyways. At least both DVD-Audio and SACD will be supported by analog means. Technofiles like you and I can complain about this lack of support, but the average user could care less.

My point is that a company is actually using the control aspect of HDMI. Control has been the problem for home theater for a long time and it finally seems like we are on the verge of solving it, very affordably I might add. Up until now the only way to make control fool proof was spend a ton of money on RS-232 capable devices and Crestron/AMX custom programming. A Crestron 12 touchpanel will run you more than this entire system and you end up with a cumbersome touchpanel that is blinding in the dark and cost thousands to upgrade one component.

HDAVI is a great concept, but it is almost pointless without an integrated Cable box. Motorola and Scientific Atlanta have done nothing but cause issues and have had a monopoly for way too long.

This system is not for about fidelity. It is about bringing HD, surround sound, DVR and the other functionality to the average person who doesn't understand why he has to change the input on the receiver and on the TV. It is about handing the remote control to your baby sitter and saying, if you want to watch a DVD, press DVD. And if you want to watch Cable, press Cable.' It is about an end to the dreaded tech support phone calls I get from everyone who knows that I am in the AV industry.

Providing intuitive control is the key to America's heart and the cable company is they only way to get it into their homes. Sorry to be so long winded, but I have had a lot of experience with theaters of all budgets and I feel pretty strongly that this is the beginning of acceptance by the late majority, a turning point if you will and I am excited to be able to recommend a product that I believe in.
fulminis is offline  
post #9 of 77 Old 04-13-2006, 07:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
M Code's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Joshua Tree, CA
Posts: 9,967
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 152 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLee View Post

Posted by amillians in another thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=661422




This will be a very desireable AVR, IMO


Switching of HDMI 1.3 is possible today, processing of HDMI 1.3 is not likely as the standards are still in committee. So it will be impossible for an AVR to quote this capability for processing and deliver it...
Until the 1.3 standards are confirmed, and once they are it takes additional time for the IC suppliers and supporting software to be developed/certified.

As been mentioned previously.. AVRs with on-board HDMI processing for decoding the native HD audio streams of HD DTS and Dolby Digital Plus are a minimum of 1 year away..
M Code is offline  
post #10 of 77 Old 04-13-2006, 08:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tlf9999's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriuslyCold View Post

this is an assumption that such a receiver would have those functuions IF it came out in September timeframe

since we are making assumptions, we might as well go all the way and assume that this thing grills good BBQ, cleans the floor, does our laundry, and mow the lawn,
tlf9999 is offline  
post #11 of 77 Old 04-13-2006, 10:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
SiriuslyCold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: KL, Malaysia
Posts: 2,745
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
tlf9999,

thanks! we can always count on you for a positive contribution

Boo!
SiriuslyCold is offline  
post #12 of 77 Old 04-13-2006, 09:15 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
KLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,716
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Panny DMP-BD10 Blu-ray player on top, SA-XR700 on bottom




http://www.i4u.com/article5422.html
KLee is offline  
post #13 of 77 Old 04-13-2006, 10:00 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,888
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1430 Post(s)
Liked: 1029
KLee,

I still don't see where it says that the receiver will have "DD+/DTHD/dts-HD", as you claimed in the topic of this thread. Where are you getting these specs?

Sanjay

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #14 of 77 Old 04-14-2006, 05:01 AM
Member
 
fulminis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Austin
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Actually the logo in the lower right of the 700 looks like it might have the DTS HD logo, but the Dolby one is hard to tell.

The logos on the BR don't look like anything special at all though.
fulminis is offline  
post #15 of 77 Old 04-14-2006, 11:47 AM
Senior Member
 
oddjob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 452
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminis View Post

You are probably right, but if you are that concerned with high fidelity music, then you probably shouldn't be buying Panasonic with class D amplification anyways.


I don't believe any reviewer has listened to a SA-XR700 yet. It's pretty hard to judge how it sounds from just a picture of the faceplate. Maybe it sounds approximately the same as their current SA-XR___ line, and maybe not.
oddjob is offline  
post #16 of 77 Old 04-14-2006, 12:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Raistlin_HT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY area
Posts: 2,503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Does anyone know if the XR700 was preouts so you can use an external amp? If so, as long as the DACs are good ... wouldn't this then be useful for high fidelity music even if the amps aren't very good?
Raistlin_HT is offline  
post #17 of 77 Old 04-14-2006, 03:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SiriuslyCold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: KL, Malaysia
Posts: 2,745
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Raistlin, course no one has seen any pictures of the back... but the current XRs don't have any DACs except for the LFE channel

Boo!
SiriuslyCold is offline  
post #18 of 77 Old 04-26-2006, 12:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kid Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Orlando, Fl
Posts: 3,733
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Any new info on this amp? I may hold off for it. I'm looking for a 2 HDMI switching digital amp and this sounds perfect.
Kid Red is offline  
post #19 of 77 Old 04-27-2006, 01:33 AM
Advanced Member
 
azryan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Az
Posts: 575
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
fulminis wrote "-if you are that concerned with high fidelity music, then you probably shouldn't be buying Panasonic with class D amplification anyways.-"

That's certainly not true for the many many people here who own XRs that have replaced gear costing a LOT more $ and had a LOT more respect with audiofools.

And like others have noted there's nothing that says this'll handle SACD. But more than that... Panny has NEVER supported SACD and I think it's very safe to assume that there's about zero chance this Rec will either.

SiriuslyCold wrote -"-Raistlin, course no one has seen any pictures of the back... but the current XRs don't have any DACs except for the LFE channel-"

Actually all the XR's have are DACs. They don't have any amps. A pure digital class D 'amp' isn't really an amp so much as it's more a 'powerDAC'.

A DAC with a speaker leve output instead of a line level one.

As to the HMDI 1.3 'to have or not to have' deal....

As long as the Rec's HDMI input is 1.1 and can be sent a lossles multichan PCM feed from the BR player you don't need 1.3 or the Rec to have the decoder chips inside it (which would make the combo have a set of redundant chips).

Looking at the HD-DVD into from Tosh, it seems like there are extra sounds that can be overlayed on top whatever the movie s'track is so you'd need to decode all that in the player to combine it all.

And if all that is always lossless PCM out the HDMI.... you're golden without those Dolby TruHD or DTS-HD chips in the Rec.

And these Panny directly taking in 24bit digital audio and keeping it that way till just before it hits speaker wire ought to be something really special and VERY rare.
azryan is offline  
post #20 of 77 Old 04-27-2006, 03:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
SiriuslyCold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: KL, Malaysia
Posts: 2,745
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by azryan View Post

Actually all the XR's have are DACs. They don't have any amps. A pure digital class D 'amp' isn't really an amp so much as it's more a 'powerDAC'.

true, thats another way of looking at it - a powerDAC; not many people are ready to deal with a powerDAC though and TI (basically everyone) still refers to the PWM module as an "amplifier"

Boo!
SiriuslyCold is offline  
post #21 of 77 Old 04-27-2006, 12:32 PM
Advanced Member
 
azryan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Az
Posts: 575
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
"-not many people are ready to deal with a powerDAC though-"

Very true and like you said even Panny prints 'Digital amp' on their XR's.

But saying powerDAC instead of amps I think points people in the direction to understand how very diff what's going on inside these Pannys than almost any other 'amps' on the market. Including most other class D 'analog' amps.

And explains why a 'preamp'section really doesn't matter in these things 'cuz there's no 'amp' section a preamp goes to.

And points to why 'if' you could send a multi-chan lossless Hi-Rez PCM HDMI signal into these suckers they could do what no other gear could do with that.
And that's pretty much just spit it right out as speaker level otuput with almost no analog steps in the path or even other digital steps where you convert the signal -like Sony or Sharp's powerDAC systems which are 1-Bit DSD like not PCM.

Confusing? Yes. heh
azryan is offline  
post #22 of 77 Old 04-27-2006, 01:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Raistlin_HT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY area
Posts: 2,503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by azryan View Post

And explains why a 'preamp'section really doesn't matter in these things 'cuz there's no 'amp' section a preamp goes to.

A lot of people kind of jumble the preamp and processor sections of audio gear as being one 'thing'.

In the case of the XR's, whatever section still handles the analog input section is still very important.
Raistlin_HT is offline  
post #23 of 77 Old 04-27-2006, 07:48 PM
Member
 
futurepannyowner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 95
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
This new Panasonic will have HDMI 1.3 and the Dolby and DTS HD decoders to take advantage of the audio tracks on upcoming Blu-ray and HD-DVD movies. But what is the advantage to this if the players will have the decoders and as long as your current receiver has HDMI 1.1 input you can listen to the lossless track?
futurepannyowner is offline  
post #24 of 77 Old 04-28-2006, 06:24 AM
Advanced Member
 
shadow 8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 784
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Who at Panasonic says the new receivers will have HDMI 1.3 as previously asked by Sanjay????
shadow 8 is offline  
post #25 of 77 Old 04-28-2006, 07:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
obie_fl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: SpaceCoast, FL
Posts: 1,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Let's assume for the moment the Pany is HDMI1.3 for the sake of argument. (If it is coming out in the next few months I highly doubt it is 1.3) I second the question what advantage is 1.3 over 1.1? Other then moving the decoding to the processor what makes it so desirable over 1.1? It seems to me there are even some advantages to leaving the decoders in the players. I keep seeing multiple threads saying we should wait for 1.3 but haven't heard a good argument as to why. Is it just because everyone has grown accustom to decoding in their processors and receivers? For that matter why bother with decoding at all and just master the new HD discs with High resolution PCM?
obie_fl is offline  
post #26 of 77 Old 04-28-2006, 10:13 AM
Advanced Member
 
azryan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Az
Posts: 575
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

In the case of the XR's, whatever section still handles the analog input section is still very important.

This begs the question 'Who is buying this pure digtial path rec. to plug ANALOG inputs into it that the owner feels are very important??'

I mean I plug my VCR into the analog ins on my XR45 but it's my only option and I use my VCR about twice a year. Hardly important to me.

If you have an awesome CDP or DAC, etc... then you probably don't want these Pannys -otherwise Cable/Sat, DVD/CD,Game Systems, etc... people should all be using the digital outs on all these things.
azryan is offline  
post #27 of 77 Old 04-28-2006, 10:35 AM
Advanced Member
 
azryan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Az
Posts: 575
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by obie_fl View Post

I second the question what advantage is 1.3 over 1.1?

Well you answered your own question very well.

I think people always inherently think 'more', 'newer' 'revised' means better. And it usually does but not always of course.

So they think '1.3 trumps 1.1'... and technically it does, but like you said it really might actually be useless audio-wise.

If these players are able to overlay commentary or other audio over the movie s'track (but GOD why would people want this???) this needs to be mixed in the player and the best output would then be lossless multichan PCM out HDMI.

And version 1.1 HDMI can do that.

Even if you don't overlay any audio on top of the original s'track, it should be 100% perfectly fine to have a player decode whatever the soundtrack is into DIGITAL PCM and pass that on.

The thing people will REALLY need to look out for is that Recs or pre/pros can handle that multichan uncompressed signal.

They might NOT be able to even if it has HDMI ins and they're 1.1 or 1.2 or 1.3 (or whatever they call the latest version).
And that means hopefully doing distance delay, and bass managment on the signal, and process 5.1 into 7.1 w/ DPLIIx too ('cuz 7.1 s'tracks are probably going to be rare or non-existant).

I totally agree with you too about people just being 'used to' a Rec being the 'hub' of sorts and doing all the decoding of everything.

If any Sat box or DVD player, etc. could decode DD/DTS and pass it as 6 chan uncompressed PCM into a Rec Pre/Pro on Coax/Optical that'd be fine for us too but those couldn't handle such a fat signal like HDMI now can.

This will be diff now with these hi-rez formats and 'the word' should get passed along here as much as possible IMO so we don't keep this confusion going for people.
azryan is offline  
post #28 of 77 Old 04-28-2006, 07:14 PM
Member
 
futurepannyowner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 95
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow 8 View Post

Who at Panasonic says the new receivers will have HDMI 1.3 as previously asked by Sanjay????

Well, the XR57 coming out in June certainly won't have HDMI 1.3. But what is the only reason to release a new A/V receiver? I say the XR700 will have HDMI 1.3 because it will have Dolby and DTS HD decoders built-in judging by the photo. It wouldn't make sense to have the decoders and not have HDMI 1.3.
futurepannyowner is offline  
post #29 of 77 Old 04-30-2006, 11:06 AM
Advanced Member
 
azryan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Az
Posts: 575
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
"-But what is the only reason to release a new A/V receiver?-"

You mean there has to be only one reason? WHY? You don't make sense man.

Why might they release a diff Rec? Maybe 'cuz it has the same looks as their new BR player and looks can be a big selling point for the mass market.

"-I say the XR700 will have HDMI 1.3 because it will have Dolby and DTS HD decoders built-in judging by the photo.-"

The photo does not tell you this. Again... you don't make sense.

"-It wouldn't make sense to have the decoders and not have HDMI 1.3.-"

That's true in an obvious kind of way.

The reverse, i.e. having 1.3 HDMI so the rec must have the decoders -which is what you're really claiming... doesn't have to be true though.

And how does it make sense then that this Panny combo would have these new decoders in BOTH the player and the Rec?? That would be a waste.

Have you not read what people (like say me in the post 'just before yours') wrote about the problem/flaw in decoding these formats in a rec rather than the player?

Let me ask you...

If you had decoders in the Rec and in the Player what would you even care which one decoded the signal??

As long as the Rec could take in the decoded lossless PCM through HDMI it would be THE SAME THING.

Maybe you want the decoders in the Rec for all the products you will own that will have DD/DTS lossless soundtracks??
That'll only be HD-DVD and BR players -which will decode those formats internally and spit them out on HDMI.
azryan is offline  
post #30 of 77 Old 04-30-2006, 09:21 PM
Member
 
futurepannyowner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 95
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
You are right, it doesn't make sense. Just after I posted, I thought, "maybe the XR700 will have more power?" And Tim Allen and Home Improvement popped into my head. It looks to me like both the player and rec have the HD audio logos on them. But maybe thats just me. Sony is waiting for HDMI 1.3 to finalize so they can ship PS3 with it, so there must some advantage to it but I don't see it.

It would be real nice if one you guys from Panasonic could straighten us out. I know you are monitoring this thread. The 700 is getting less appealing as we get closer to the day the 57 ships. My cable box probably wouldn't work through a second HDMI input on the rec any way. Give up the info, you're shipping a Blu-Ray player in June aren't you. answer me...
futurepannyowner is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off