Audyssey stand-alone Equalizer - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 187 Old 04-12-2006, 04:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Bonjour,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man
Audessy's big news at CEDIA was a new product...a stand-alone equalizer. .... It will have much greater ability in the low frequencies, and will have multiple selectable curves among many other improvements and features. He explains there is just not enough room to do all this in a receiver. It will be sold by Audyssey approved installer/calibrators.

Randy
Does anybody have any further news about this particular product?

Some background noise indicates things are at our doorstep, can somebody increase the volume?

Many thks for your help.

Hugo

PS: Hi Randy, makes quite a while since Florida... and what a different World!
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post #2 of 187 Old 04-12-2006, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo S
Bonjour,
Does anybody have any further news about this particular product?
Promised soon. Estimated MSRP $2500~. Nice brochure.

Quote:
Some background noise indicates things are at our doorstep, can somebody increase the volume?
Many thks for your help.
Hugo
PS: Hi Randy, makes quite a while since Florida... and what a different World!
????????

Kal

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post #3 of 187 Old 04-12-2006, 08:12 AM
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Just went through training on Monday. Should be shipping this month or early next. It was amazing. The new system will be wonderful and it is soooo much more powerful than what we have seen in Denon receivers (about 20 times). Those expecting an outboard box that performs like a Denon receiver will be shocked. From what I heard, this unit will be easily worth its asking price.

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post #4 of 187 Old 04-12-2006, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awtryau89
Just went through training on Monday. Should be shipping this month or early next. It was amazing. The new system will be wonderful and it is soooo much more powerful than what we have seen in Denon receivers (about 20 times). Those expecting an outboard box that performs like a Denon receiver will be shocked. From what I heard, this unit will be easily worth its asking price.
How do you become an Audyssey approved installer/dealer? Not for me but for a friend who is an installer.
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post #5 of 187 Old 04-12-2006, 01:30 PM
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Is this going to be a pure EQ or will it also ba a pre-pro? How many channels will it equalize?
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post #6 of 187 Old 04-12-2006, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericgl
Is this going to be a pure EQ or will it also ba a pre-pro? How many channels will it equalize?
It looks to be just a stand alone EQ system that will do eight channels.

This pic is from John Ashman's Audio Design web site. Note: this is two units reversed and stacked. You can try pinging John and see if has more info about the system, which he is supposed to have coming this month.

http://www.adnm.com/images/audyssey2.jpg
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post #7 of 187 Old 04-12-2006, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awtryau89
Just went through training on Monday. Should be shipping this month or early next. It was amazing. The new system will be wonderful and it is soooo much more powerful than what we have seen in Denon receivers (about 20 times). Those expecting an outboard box that performs like a Denon receiver will be shocked. From what I heard, this unit will be easily worth its asking price.
20 TIMES............ :eek:


dc

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post #8 of 187 Old 04-12-2006, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaracsan
It looks to be just a stand alone EQ system that will do eight channels.

This pic is from John Ashman's Audio Design web site. Note: this is two units reversed and stacked. You can try pinging John and see if has more info about the system, which he is supposed to have coming this month.

http://www.adnm.com/images/audyssey2.jpg
It doesn't look like this unit has a video output for any sort of monitoring?

dc

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post #9 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 05:23 AM
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From the picture, it wasn't clear if there were digital input and output. There is something ".... PCM" I think but I am not sure. I wish the picture was clearer.

From a quick look, it looked like there are four pairs of analog stereo inputs and outputs. When I looked at it more, I think each one is labeled with a number from 1 to 8.

Is the brochure available on-line?

Ken
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post #10 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 09:02 AM
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Ken,
Quote:
From the picture, it wasn't clear if there were digital input and output.
Doesn't look like there are any digital audio inputs at all. Which means that all the signals will have to go through additional A/D and D/A steps.
Quote:
There is something ".... PCM" I think but I am not sure.
Looks more like the word "PORT" than PCM. I don't see microphone connections either. I wonder if they are under a hidden panel or something.

Sanjay

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post #11 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 09:48 AM
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This might bring us closer to the amount of processing power neccesary to do it well. I am anxious to play with it.

Quote:
Maybe someday in the future we will be able to quantify perceived Sound Quality .
(But not today....)

Earl Geddes Ph.D.
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post #12 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamCatcher
It doesn't look like this unit has a video output for any sort of monitoring?

dc
Nope. All the monitoring is done on the PC laptop.

Kal

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post #13 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
All the monitoring is done on the PC laptop.
Great for installers and people who "set-and-forget", but maybe a bit more cumbersome for the diy/tweeks(?)

Quote:
Maybe someday in the future we will be able to quantify perceived Sound Quality .
(But not today....)

Earl Geddes Ph.D.
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post #14 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schadenfreude
Great for installers and people who "set-and-forget", but maybe a bit more cumbersome for the diy/tweeks(?)
It will not be sold to "diy/tweeks." The $2500 cost is for the box. All the software and measurement hardware is provided to certified installers.

Kal

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post #15 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 10:08 AM
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The "PCM Port" isn't PCM, it's "USB Port". My guess is that you can run setup/installation from either RS-232 or USB.

The other ports are labelled "Test Port".

The Audyssey unit uses 1024-tap FIR filters. MultEQ XT uses 512-tap FIR filters. More taps = more precision in lower frequencies.

Regards,

Contributing Editor & Surround Music Reviewer Widescreen Review
Opinions are mine, not the publication I write for.
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post #16 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani
Ken, Doesn't look like there are any digital audio inputs at all. Which means that all the signals will have to go through additional A/D and D/A steps. Looks more like the word "PORT" than PCM. I don't see microphone connections either. I wonder if they are under a hidden panel or something.

Sanjay
So will you have the latency of the processing in the preamp AND the latency of the processing in the Audyssey? Don't those a/d d/a add latency time? Of course, I guess if they are all delayed the same amount of time it won't matter except for video delay and lip sync problems.
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post #17 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 10:19 AM
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this is very interesting indeed

I may have to check one of these out :)

-Gary
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post #18 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson
It will not be sold to "diy/tweeks." The $2500 cost is for the box. All the software and measurement hardware is provided to certified installers.Kal
Bummer.

I would have considered buying one, ditching my Pioneer 59TXi for cinema & multi-channel music and migrating to separates for everything. My experiences with "installers" is not too encouraging. The one I hired in 1992 when our house was built was very marginal in completing his work on time and getting it right. More recently, I spent a lot of money for 2 calibrations of my HDTV (one didn't get it right in 2 tries and he is known on this forum, the second one I hired did a great job in correcting the 1st one's mistakes and got it right).

I'll accept being relatively tied to a calibrator for video, but I would ALWAYS want the option to re-tune my room EQ myself if I changed room setup, speakers, amps, acoustic treatments, moved to another house, etc. I would not want to be tied to an installer for minor audio adjustments.

Why would I want to continue to pay someone to come in and run a new setup just because I moved a piece of furniture? I'd bet I'm not in a minority in feeling this way, especially with the type of potential clientele represented on this forum.

Not trying to step on anyone's toes who is going to be an installer for this product, but...unless I'm missing something, and it's a one-time fee, Audyssey's approach strikes me as a pretty arrogant marketing scheme.

Is Audyssey protecting some licensing rights to Denon here or (IMO) making a bad marketing decision? Audyssey may want to look at Velodyne as an example of selling their excellent sub EQ'er as a standalone product for other sub owners.

awtryau89,
If you don't mind me asking since we're both in GA, how are u going to market the product and provide services? Feel free to PM me if u want.

ss9001

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post #19 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 01:32 PM
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Randy,
Quote:
So will you have the latency of the processing in the preamp AND the latency of the processing in the Audyssey?
Sure, it's cumulative. The A/D and D/A steps probably do add latency, though I don't know how much.
Quote:
I guess if they are all delayed the same amount of time it won't matter except for video delay and lip sync problems.
Normally I would expect all the channels to have the same amount of latency, otherwise your time-alignment will be screwed up. However, I think there is an option to use the each pair of inputs for a separate system if you want. In that case, the final delay for each pair might be vary from one another. Won't really know any of this for sure until the product is out.

Sanjay

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post #20 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
It will not be sold to "diy/tweeks." The $2500 cost is for the box. All the software and measurement hardware is provided to certified installers.
Well, we all know that they will end up in the hands of some people here who will want to fool with it.

Quote:
I'd bet I'm not in a minority in feeling this way, especially with the type of potential clientele represented on this forum.
Well, I am sure there are many here that would feel the same, but that likely still puts you in a small minority among the likely owners of such a unit.

Quote:
Maybe someday in the future we will be able to quantify perceived Sound Quality .
(But not today....)

Earl Geddes Ph.D.
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post #21 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 01:56 PM
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All the info on this thread coincides with what I am being told. This unit is not intended for the DIYers. It is a custom installer piece. My best comparision is with an ISF Calibrationist. Anyone can calibrate a PJ if they want to spend the money to get the right equipment. I am sure there will be those out there that will be able to find dealers to sell the EQ and the kit with software, etc. Please bear in mind that each mic will be indivually calibrated and logged at Audyssey's labs. It will then be programmed with the specific software inlcuded in the kit. So you would not be able to use just any mic.

As for the A/D and D/A, I was concerned about that as well. After listening I was a believer. A/D and D/A, is not necessarily a bad thing if done right and something is going on "RIGHT" with this system. Finally, after seeing the charts on the laptop of what was happening for each speaker, especially in the subwoofer, I was definitely sold.

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post #22 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 03:03 PM
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Putting the laptop charts aside...

How did it sound when switched In & Out...
Especially for the low frequencies..
What happens if the listener changes his sitting position..
Does it compensate for this..
Or does the user have to rerun the software..
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post #23 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awtryau89
All the info on this thread coincides with what I am being told. This unit is not intended for the DIYers. It is a custom installer piece. My best comparision is with an ISF Calibrationist. Anyone can calibrate a PJ if they want to spend the money to get the right equipment. I am sure there will be those out there that will be able to find dealers to sell the EQ and the kit with software, etc. Please bear in mind that each mic will be indivually calibrated and logged at Audyssey's labs. It will then be programmed with the specific software inlcuded in the kit. So you would not be able to use just any mic.

As for the A/D and D/A, I was concerned about that as well. After listening I was a believer. A/D and D/A, is not necessarily a bad thing if done right and something is going on "RIGHT" with this system. Finally, after seeing the charts on the laptop of what was happening for each speaker, especially in the subwoofer, I was definitely sold.
Do you know if they are going to put on their web site installers that are certified? How are they going to market it? It seems to be a well gaurded secret which doesn't bode well for selling very many if it is going to be introduced in the next 30 days or so.
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post #24 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code
Putting the laptop charts aside...

How did it sound when switched In & Out...
Especially for the low frequencies..
What happens if the listener changes his sitting position..
Does it compensate for this..
Or does the user have to rerun the software..
M Code,
Thats the amazing thing. You can move around the room and the bass seems very controlled and even. I could not tell any differences in any frequency area from seat to seat. I even stood behind the listening seats and could not tell any differences. The new EQ allows up to 32 position measurement calculations as compared to 6 or 8 in the Denon's Audyssey. I questioned Audyssey about this and they stated they use "Fuzzy Logic" to accomplish this. He stated that if one seat needs a 3db boost in a certain frequency area and the seat 2 chairs away needed a 3db cut, that is exactly what happened with their algorithms. It is based on phsyco-acoustics, time delay/arrival at the ear and their "Fuzzy Logic".

Their demostration included the old "on/off" trick. With the EQ on the scenes in the movies we watched the soundfield had much more of a seemless, wrap around effect. The high frequency detail was very clear and the midrange and midbass was clean and powerful. When switched off, the soundfield colapsed more to the front LCRs. The rain drops that had seemed to be falling all around you now were more in front of you with sound being much more localizable in the rear channels. The high frenquency detail was gone but the most evident area was in the midrange and midbass. It lost its punch and the became a bit on the honky side. The system we were using was an all Triad In Room Gold system all the way with dual In Room Gold Subs. Powered by a Krell prepro and amp. This was top of the line equipment. I have been in the demo room before and it sounds very good without the Audyssey. This is why I was so taken back by the difference with Audyssey in the system.

Eric Awtry
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post #25 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randybes
Do you know if they are going to put on their web site installers that are certified? How are they going to market it? It seems to be a well gaurded secret which doesn't bode well for selling very many if it is going to be introduced in the next 30 days or so.
I am not sure. I am sure they will as they sign on dealers.

Eric Awtry
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post #26 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 05:50 PM
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Not that it matters a whit to Audyssey, but I'm dissapointed, and loosing interest. Hopefully someone will incorporate the technology in a pre-pro.
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post #27 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awtryau89
M Code,
Thats the amazing thing. You can move around the room and the bass seems very controlled and even. I could not tell any differences in any frequency area from seat to seat. I even stood behind the listening seats and could not tell any differences. The new EQ allows up to 32 position measurement calculations as compared to 6 or 8 in the Denon's Audyssey. I questioned Audyssey about this and they stated they use "Fuzzy Logic" to accomplish this. He stated that if one seat needs a 3db boost in a certain frequency area and the seat 2 chairs away needed a 3db cut, that is exactly what happened with their algorithms. It is based on phsyco-acoustics, time delay/arrival at the ear and their "Fuzzy Logic".

Their demostration included the old "on/off" trick. With the EQ on the scenes in the movies we watched the soundfield had much more of a seemless, wrap around effect. The high frequency detail was very clear and the midrange and midbass was clean and powerful. When switched off, the soundfield colapsed more to the front LCRs. The rain drops that had seemed to be falling all around you now were more in front of you with sound being much more localizable in the rear channels. The high frenquency detail was gone but the most evident area was in the midrange and midbass. It lost its punch and the became a bit on the honky side. The system we were using was an all Triad In Room Gold system all the way with dual In Room Gold Subs. Powered by a Krell prepro and amp. This was top of the line equipment. I have been in the demo room before and it sounds very good without the Audyssey. This is why I was so taken back by the difference with Audyssey in the system.
ERIC:
Very interesting...
Last year we attended a demo done by Chris and Tom and was favorably impressed by its performance. But I was not familiar with the demo room and other components so I reserved judgement about its sonic contribution...

Though no longer directly in the biz as I used to be..
I would be very interested in hearing this sometime in the future..
Thanks for the update...
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post #28 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
He stated that if one seat needs a 3db boost in a certain frequency area and the seat 2 chairs away needed a 3db cut, that is exactly what happened with their algorithms.
Sounds more like fuzzy marketing than fuzzy logic to me. ;) Sorry but, when it's all said and done, the thing is just an EQ. It can't both boost and cut the same frequency. However, smart software and multiple measurement positions can help it decide whether to boost, cut or do nothing at a certain frequency -- choose one and only one.

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post #29 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 07:32 PM
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Catapult, I'm not sure because they don't like explaining it, but I think it can use a form of cancellation signal coming from one or more speakers to cancel out peaks and dips and fix issues. It's more than an EQ. I tried to pin them down on how it works *exactly*, but the more I pushed, the fuzzier the explanation became. But that's how I would do it.

The demo I heard worked wonders and was far more involving and spacious. Of course, that was with Klipsch speakers that could use the help, so it remains to be seen what effect it would have on an ideal setup in a well done room with really superb speakers. But it sure will be a huge help to imperfect speakers set up imperfectly in imperfect rooms.

John
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post #30 of 187 Old 04-13-2006, 09:19 PM
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The TacT guys did the same kind of fuzzy marketing (obfuscation) with their "time domain" buzzwords. It's not an EQ it's a (fill in the buzzword).... yeah right. How the EQ works is pretty simple DSP stuff, FIR filters, blah blah. The proprietary thing is all on the measurement and calculation end -- deciding what to adjust and what not to adjust and trying to do it all without human intervention. That's no small feat but let's not ascribe supernatural powers to the thing. It either boosts or cuts a certain frequency, period.

Dennis H
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