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post #30421 of 43014 Old 10-06-2010, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by broker156 View Post

Bob
I did a new measurement & still get about 68 reading. In your last post in telling how to use Radio Shack meter you said 75db is 70 with Radio Shack meter. Does this mean set meter @ 70 & when noise level is at 0 were done. My last reading I set meter @ 70 & when meter said +5 I quit.

With the Radio Shack digital readout SPL meter, set it to the "70dB" range when trying to measure 75dB. Setting it to the 60 or the 80 range will give a less accurate result.

But in your case I suggest you put down the SPL meter and just raise Test Level from the -7.5dB you have it at now back to 0dB (no change needed in the sub volume knob), and then re-Measure for ARC.
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post #30422 of 43014 Old 10-06-2010, 05:53 PM
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Installed "test" firmware V2.10b. No problems, no surprises.

So far I've not detected any differences.
--Bob

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post #30423 of 43014 Old 10-06-2010, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by tngiloy View Post

Bob,
As always, thanks.
You were right, it was pretty intuitive, after reading the release notes for 3.0 and figuring out where to find the 'quick measure' feature.
The only complaint I have (and its minor) is it would be nice to be able to save the prior 'quick measure' graph to compare to the next one so I could see the changes made were for the better. Just a thought- could I use a screen captue to save the different 'quick measure' readings? Maybe I'll try that next time, but I was pretty happy with the new ARC measurements after tweeking my sub position/settings with the 'quick measure' tool.

It would be nice if Anthem had a pdf file for ARC setup that could be downloaded like the manuals, that could be updated when changes are made with new versions of ARC. That way I wouldn't have to bug you for answers.

Anyway, here are my new graphs.
Please look at them and let me know what you think, if you have the time.
Thanks,
Tom

These charts look fine to me.
--Bob

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post #30424 of 43014 Old 10-06-2010, 06:07 PM
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Done "Commander Bob"!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Give Anthem tech support a call. They may have some info on this. I've not seen that problem discussed here. And there's no settings mistake you could make which would cause this, but still let the audio come back when you switch Sources away and back.
--Bob


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post #30425 of 43014 Old 10-06-2010, 07:02 PM
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Hi Guru's

When running ARC, where should the microphone be.

In front of the chair at the measuring location?

Behind the chair at the measuring location?

On top of chair at the measuring location?

I would like to download ARC3 and try the new software out. But first, I would like to make sure that I set up the mike correctly.

Warren
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post #30426 of 43014 Old 10-06-2010, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

With the Radio Shack digital readout SPL meter, set it to the "70dB" range when trying to measure 75dB. Setting it to the 60 or the 80 range will give a less accurate result.

But in your case I suggest you put down the SPL meter and just raise Test Level from the -7.5dB you have it at now back to 0dB (no change needed in the sub volume knob), and then re-Measure for ARC.
--Bob

This is the same issue I had reported a while back with beta ARC 3.0. I did all the stuff Bob describes in setting up my D2, and the ARC level came out 65db. I will mention I have main volume set for +10db in settings, I use balanced connects for L, R and C, and the noise level came out +2.5db when the RS meter with fresh battery read +5 on the 70db scale. I don't think I've seen a good explanation of why that's happening yet, unless there is something weird with the D2 settings that's affecting the final result. I may try just increasing the sweep level and not trusting the RS meter, but I can't go +15db for sure!

Any other ideas anyone?
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post #30427 of 43014 Old 10-07-2010, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren460 View Post

Hi Guru's

When running ARC, where should the microphone be.

In front of the chair at the measuring location?

Behind the chair at the measuring location?

On top of chair at the measuring location?

I would like to download ARC3 and try the new software out. But first, I would like to make sure that I set up the mike correctly.

Warren

Warren,
I couldn't locate the posts where Bob explains the mic positioning, but this is the procedure I use following Bob's advice and the instructions in the Anthem manuals, and a few years worth of experience using ARC.


The mic stand that Anthem provides with ARC makes it difficult to put the mic in an optimal position when doing sweeps, especially if your normal seating position is in a reclinig chair/sofa.
First, at Bob's suggestion, I bought a 'boom' extension for my mic stand. It cost $12 at a local music store (the kind that sells guitars, drums, etc.) and attaches onto the Anthem ARC mic stand. This has allowed me to get much more accurate positioning. The 'boom' is not absolutly required to get good mic positioning, but it sure makes life alot easier. Try it! You'll like it!

With the boom-mic ready,I first put my seats in the reclinig position (the position the seat will be in when in use), then place the mic stand in front or behind of the #1 position. The position of the stand doesn't matter. The position of the mic does!
The #1 position should be centered over the main listening position.
If there is only one person in the audience, place the mic over that seat. If there are two, put the mic between the two seats. If there are multiple rows of seats in a theater, place the mic in the center of the average audience that you would have in attendace.
The mic should be at ear level when seated.
The mic needs to be pointing straight up towards the ceiling.
The mic needs to be at least 1' in front of any surface (chair/wall).
For the #2 position move the mic 18''- 24''to one side of position #1. For position #3 move the mic 18''- 24'' to the other side of position #1.
For a single rows of seats the mic positions would look something like:

#5----#3----#1----#2----#4


For a theater with multiple rows it would look something like this:

#5----------------#4

-------- #1--------

#3-----------------#2

If you you use a different speaker configuration or a different #1 seating position for movies and music, then you should consider doing separate movie and music ARC readings.

Hope this helps.

Tom

"You can have my remote when you pry it from my cold dead fingers" tngiloy
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post #30428 of 43014 Old 10-07-2010, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tngiloy View Post

Warren,
I couldn't locate the posts where Bob explains the mic positioning, but this is the procedure I use following Bob's advice and the instructions in the Anthem manuals, and a few years worth of experience using ARC.


The mic stand that Anthem provides with ARC makes it difficult to put the mic in an optimal position when doing sweeps, especially if your normal seating position is in a reclinig chair/sofa.
First, at Bob's suggestion, I bought a 'boom' extension for my mic stand. It cost $12 at a local music store (the kind that sells guitars, drums, etc.) and attaches onto the Anthem ARC mic stand. This has allowed me to get much more accurate positioning. The 'boom' is not absolutly required to get good mic positioning, but it sure makes life alot easier. Try it! You'll like it!

With the boom-mic ready,I first put my seats in the reclinig position (the position the seat will be in when in use), then place the mic stand in front or behind of the #1 position. The position of the stand doesn't matter. The position of the mic does!
The #1 position should be centered over the main listening position.
If there is only one person in the audience, place the mic over that seat. If there are two, put the mic between the two seats. If there are multiple rows of seats in a theater, place the mic in the center of the average audience that you would have in attendace.
The mic should be at ear level when seated.
The mic needs to be pointing straight up towards the ceiling.
The mic needs to be at least 1' in front of any surface (chair/wall).
For the #2 position move the mic 18''- 24''to one side of position #1. For position #3 move the mic 18''- 24'' to the other side of position #1.
For a single rows of seats the mic positions would look something like:

#5----#3----#1----#2----#4


For a theater with multiple rows it would look something like this:

#5----------------#4

-------- #1--------

#3-----------------#2

If you you use a different speaker configuration or a different #1 seating position for movies and music, then you should consider doing separate movie and music ARC readings.

Hope this helps.

Tom

Hi,

I have also followed these guidelines when I had a D2 and now that I have a D2v. But now, after a few years, I have these new questions about the procedures.
First a description of my setting:

I have a rectangular room L.8m X W.5m
I have 2 sofas. The closest to the screen, a smaller one (S.1) is at floor level. A larger one (S.2) is right behind the small one on a second level about 30cm higher.
I usually ran ARC twice. Once for Movies using a 7.1 system, and then for Music using on a 2.0 system.
So my measurements looked as follows

Movies
S.2-----------#4--------#5---------#6
S.1---------------#3----#1----#2
Floor

Music
S.2
S.1---------------#3----#1----#2
Floor------------------#4--#5

That way I always got around 3.9 of Gain for Movies and 0.7 for Music.
So I usually raised the Music Gain to 3, overriding ARC.

Now, I noticed lately in an earlier post that I could run ARC once, selecting the Music mode as "Same as Movie", and only after deselect all the unneeded speakers in the Music mode to make it a 2.0 profile.
If I do that, which positioning should I chose?
I suppose, logically, the wider one, the Movie positioning.
But then what about Gain?
What about the focus on the main #1 position?
What do you think?

Thanks
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post #30429 of 43014 Old 10-07-2010, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xtrips View Post

Hi,

I have also followed these guidelines when I had a D2 and now that I have a D2v. But now, after a few years, I have these new questions about the procedures.
First a description of my setting:

I have a rectangular room L.8m X W.5m
I have 2 sofas. The closest to the screen, a smaller one (S.1) is at floor level. A larger one (S.2) is right behind the small one on a second level about 30cm higher.
I usually ran ARC twice. Once for Movies using a 7.1 system, and then for Music using on a 2.0 system.
So my measurements looked as follows

Movies
S.2-----------#4--------#5---------#6
S.1---------------#3----#1----#2
Floor

Music
S.2
S.1---------------#3----#1----#2
Floor------------------#4--#5

That way I always got around 3.9 of Gain for Movies and 0.7 for Music.
So I usually raised the Music Gain to 3, overriding ARC.

Now, I noticed lately in an earlier post that I could run ARC once, selecting the Music mode as "Same as Movie", and only after deselect all the unneeded speakers in the Music mode to make it a 2.0 profile.
If I do that, which positioning should I chose?
I suppose, logically, the wider one, the Movie positioning.
But then what about Gain?
What about the focus on the main #1 position?
What do you think?

Thanks


We'll see what Bob thinks, but since you are running a different speaker configuration I would run separate movie and music runs.
Even though your #1 seat is the same, the others are different, I assume because that is where the movie and music seating is different.
You also say you are running 2.0 for music, which means you are running your fronts at full range. If you are running your movie with a sub in 5.1 or 7.1 (and not running your fronts at full range) Arc will be treating your fronts differently and you will need to make a separate movie/music ARC runs to get an accurate result.
It really takes just a little more time to do a separate music run, especially if you are only doing your fronts.

Tom

"You can have my remote when you pry it from my cold dead fingers" tngiloy
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post #30430 of 43014 Old 10-07-2010, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by my2cents View Post

This is the same issue I had reported a while back with beta ARC 3.0. I did all the stuff Bob describes in setting up my D2, and the ARC level came out 65db. I will mention I have main volume set for +10db in settings, I use balanced connects for L, R and C, and the noise level came out +2.5db when the RS meter with fresh battery read +5 on the 70db scale. I don't think I've seen a good explanation of why that's happening yet, unless there is something weird with the D2 settings that's affecting the final result. I may try just increasing the sweep level and not trusting the RS meter, but I can't go +15db for sure!

Any other ideas anyone?

As I posted above, this is also what happened with me, once I ran V3. My level was set with a digital sound meter that should be half descently accurate. My level correction was -2.5db, which I believe is right around where my level was previously set with another digital sound meter & graph results were as expected with previous version of ARC (2.4 I believe). I do know my max level is set at +30db (never changed).

Only thing I noticed was that I had a +5db setting in the "on the fly" sub level for my 6 ch analog & the Sat input. Not sure if this made any difference but I need to re-run ARC after room changes, so I'll be sure all on the fly trims are set at 0 this time.
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post #30431 of 43014 Old 10-07-2010, 11:50 AM
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The mic placement rules are simple but important. You need to sample the seating area. That doesn't mean the mic needs to be placed where each person's head will be, but rather that the spacing must span the seating area. If you have a large seating area, add more mic positions.

You need to have distance between the mic placements so that ARC has a better chance to distinguish room response from inherent speaker output.

The mic is omnidirectional so that it can pick up reflected sound as well as direct sound, and so it is calibrated for use pointing straight up.

And you need to place the mic tip at seated ear height. If you recline your seats while viewing, then set them that way and adjust the mic position accordingly.

The #1 position is the one used for setting speaker levels, so it must be at the center of the preferred seating.

Subsequent mic positions must alternate either side of #1. This helps insure adequate mic separation

No two mic positions, whether or not sequential should be closer than 24 inches apart. I like to use 30 inches.

Keep the mic tip away from reflecting/blocking surfaces like seat backs or walls. I like to keep at least 18 inches from a wall when possible, but consider 1 foot a minimum. If your seating is flush to a back wall, it is better to have the mic a little closer to the screen than too close to the wall. For a seat back, it's OK to raise the mic tip a few inches to clear the seat back. If the seat back is tall, move the mic about a foot closer to the screen to get it away from that.

It is a good idea to have some front/back shift as well as left/right. So if you have single row seating, like on a sofa, rather than running a straight line across the sofa back I suggest you swing the outer two positions closer to the screen. For a typical sofa, that will place #1, #2, and #3 along the sofa back (with #1 in the middle), and #4 and #5 just outside the sofa arms and shifted forward about to the front of the sofa cushion.

-------------------------------------------

As important as mic positioning, is to remember to configure your room the way it will be used for critical listening. Doors open/closed. Curtains open/closed. Etc. In my prior viewing room I had a walk in closet and if I left the door to that open all the 50Hz went in there to hide. You don't want to know how long it took me to figure THAT out.

In many cases, problems can be fixed by adjusting speaker positioning and pointing. Speakers generally have worse dispersion of treble in the vertical direction than in the horizontal. So if your speakers are not mounted at seated ear height, consider what you can do to adjust their vertical pointing.

The LF/RF speakers should not be rotated so they are pointing at mic position #1 (called toe-in). A good rule of thumb is to rotate them only 1/3 of the way from perpendicular to the screen towards mic position #1.

Distance between speakers and walls/corners has a big effect on how the speakers couple to the room. In bass frequencies, even inches matter. The new Quick Measure feature in ARC can be useful in experimenting with this. In some rooms dramatic improvement in subwoofer response can be had by a big move -- e.g., from the front wall to a side wall. The bass frequencies produced by the sub are not locatable (the sub works by "pressurizing" the entire listening area so that bass appears to come from everywhere). So you are free to put the sub just about anywhere. However, if you can avoid it, don't put the sub really close to the seating as the "near field" response of the sub will be different for the folks sitting closest to it. I.e., try not to use your subwoofer as an end-table for the sofa. If you move the sub, be sure to recheck its Polarity/Phase match to the main speakers.
--Bob

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post #30432 of 43014 Old 10-07-2010, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daren_p View Post

As I posted above, this is also what happened with me, once I ran V3. My level was set with a digital sound meter that should be half descently accurate. My level correction was -2.5db, which I believe is right around where my level was previously set with another digital sound meter & graph results were as expected with previous version of ARC (2.4 I believe). I do know my max level is set at +30db (never changed).

Only thing I noticed was that I had a +5db setting in the "on the fly" sub level for my 6 ch analog & the Sat input. Not sure if this made any difference but I need to re-run ARC after room changes, so I'll be sure all on the fly trims are set at 0 this time.

Keep in mind that ARC V2.4 still had the 6dB level bug which meant some folks had to lower Test Level an additional 6dB to get proper levels out of ARC. So comparing Test Level in V3.0 to what gave you proper results in V2.4 may be misleading.

Also keep in mind that Test Level and LF volume settings interact. You must have the LF line at 0dB before you set Test Level.

The "temporary" speaker level adjustments should be zeroed out. To be SURE they are all zeroed (for all Sources and all audio types), go into Setup and:

1) Save User Settings
2) Reload Factory Defaults. If you lose video continue via the Front Panel display.
3) Reload Saved User Settings.

The "temporary" settings are not saved so this clears all of them.
--Bob

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post #30433 of 43014 Old 10-07-2010, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by tngiloy View Post

We'll see what Bob thinks, but since you are running a different speaker configuration I would run separate movie and music runs.
Even though your #1 seat is the same, the others are different, I assume because that is where the movie and music seating is different.
You also say you are running 2.0 for music, which means you are running your fronts at full range. If you are running your movie with a sub in 5.1 or 7.1 (and not running your fronts at full range) Arc will be treating your fronts differently and you will need to make a separate movie/music ARC runs to get an accurate result.
It really takes just a little more time to do a separate music run, especially if you are only doing your fronts.

Tom


After reading the last portion above, about doing two seperate measurments if your just listening to 2ch for music, it has me thinking. Does it actually make a difference?

I have just been taking one set of measurments & then selecting that Movie & Music are different, set Music to fronts only, full range & then allow ARC to calculate the corrected curves. Would taking a second set of measurments (would do in the same position as Movie measurments) make any difference? I didn't think this was needed as after you modify the targets, ARC re-draws new "calculated" curves for both setups & trys to adjust to the calculated. So I'm wondering how (or if) just measuring the 2 ch would make any difference? (when using the same measuring positions)
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post #30434 of 43014 Old 10-07-2010, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Keep in mind that ARC V2.4 still had the 6dB level bug which meant some folks had to lower Test Level an additional 6dB to get proper levels out of ARC. So comparing Test Level in V3.0 to what gave you proper results in V2.4 may be misleading.

Also keep in mind that Test Level and LF volume settings interact. You must have the LF line at 0dB before you set Test Level.


Thanks Bob, actually I wasn't 100% correct with what I said, now that I think about it. When I initially ran ARC 2.4, I didn't know you had to adjust levels, so I just ran it with the settings I had in there. When I ran V3, as far as I know, I did things properly, all levels zereo'd out, then set the test level & finally adjust sub gain (on the sub) to get 75db (but I did forget to zero the on the fly settings, maybe this is part of the problem?). Next time I run ARC, I will be sure all on the fly settings are zero'd out.

Before running ARC my setting to get the test level around 75db was around the same -2.5 I used before I ran V3 (so I would think this helps to rule out a sound meter error). Measurements done with two different digital db meters that should be half descent. We sell sound meters at work so I just bring different new ones home, when needed. I try to not bring home the real cheepie meters, so their usually the $200-300 ones.
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post #30435 of 43014 Old 10-07-2010, 12:59 PM
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I don't really know where the root error is here, or even if there is some "good reason" why ARC had to use a lower level in the solution.

One thing that might help while trying to figure this out is that I believe you can use the Quick Measure feature to see how the ARC mic is hearing the output of one of your speakers (e.g., Left Front) faster than doing a complete ARC setup.

So you can experiment with things like different Test Level settings, or whether the "temporary" level adjustments are the culprit, quite a bit faster.

Just remember you need to restore your setup after using Quick Measure. Either do a new ARC setup, or re-Upload your most recent ARC results, or Reload Saved User Settings if you remembered to save those after your prior ARC Upload.
--Bob

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post #30436 of 43014 Old 10-07-2010, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daren_p View Post

After reading the last portion above, about doing two seperate measurments if your just listening to 2ch for music, it has me thinking. Does it actually make a difference?

I have just been taking one set of measurments & then selecting that Movie & Music are different, set Music to fronts only, full range & then allow ARC to calculate the corrected curves. Would taking a second set of measurments (would do in the same position as Movie measurments) make any difference? I didn't think this was needed as after you modify the targets, ARC re-draws new "calculated" curves for both setups & trys to adjust to the calculated. So I'm wondering how (or if) just measuring the 2 ch would make any difference? (when using the same measuring positions)

You are probably OK doing it that way. I know with ARC 3.0 after running a 'same as' set of sweeps you can type an 'n' by the speakers you want to eliminate, and do a new calculation. I wasn't aware you could do that with the prior ARC versions.

With me , its so easy to run a second set for a 2.1 music set-up that I have always done it. I may be doing more work than I need to , but its so quick and easy that I just do it.

Bob,
am I wasting time?

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post #30437 of 43014 Old 10-07-2010, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by tngiloy View Post


You are probably OK doing it that way. I know with ARC 3.0 after running a 'same as' set of sweeps you can type an 'n' by the speakers you want to eliminate, and do a new calculation. I wasn't aware you could do that with the prior ARC versions.

With me , its so easy to run a second set for a 2.1 music set-up that I have always done it. I may be doing more work than I need to , but its so quick and easy that I just do it.

Bob,
am I wasting time?

Assuming the only thing that's changing is the included speakers, then the only downside to reusing the Movie data and eliminating speakers afterwards is that ARC might have a different idea on how to set the cutoffs if you had taken a separate Measurement pass for Music.

Consider dropping the sub for example. ARC will use the LF/RF pair "full range" of course, but their low end cutoff will still be in effect unless you change that yourself.

Similarly, dropping Surrounds won't automatically change ARC's choice of how high up it needs to correct the sub.
--Bob

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post #30438 of 43014 Old 10-07-2010, 05:47 PM
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Bob,
I gave up with Radio Shack meter & used Quick Measure. I first went to speaker calibration & changed number in noise level to a number that showed in quick measure with a reading above 70 db. Of couse I zeroed out rest of speaker calibration each time. This ended up with noise level -2.0 [LF +0.0 FL -0.5 center -0.5 sur R -0.5 sur L =3.5 sub -3.5.
Here are my graphs. Any suggestions?
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post #30439 of 43014 Old 10-07-2010, 06:07 PM
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Bob,
I'm the one that could not get the Radio Shack meter to give a reading above 68db. I used Quick measure and in Speaker Calibration I put numbers in until it showed a line above 70db in LF speaker. Of couse I zeroed out each line on each try. I ended up with noise level -2.0 LF +0.0 RF -0.5 center -0.5 sur R -0.5 surr L +0.5 sub -3.5. Here are my graphs. Any suggestions?
Attachment 187823

Attachment 187824

Attachment 187825

 

arc 10-8-10 A.doc 149k . file

 

arc 10-8-10 B.doc 85.5k . file

 

arc 10-8-10 targets.doc 100.5k . file
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File Type: doc arc 10-8-10 targets.doc (100.5 KB, 3 views)
File Type: doc arc 10-8-10 B.doc (85.5 KB, 4 views)
File Type: doc arc 10-8-10 A.doc (149.0 KB, 3 views)
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post #30440 of 43014 Old 10-07-2010, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broker156 View Post

Bob,
I'm the one that could not get the Radio Shack meter to give a reading above 68db. I used Quick measure and in Speaker Calibration I put numbers in until it showed a line above 70db in LF speaker. Of couse I zeroed out each line on each try. I ended up with noise level -2.0 LF +0.0 RF -0.5 center -0.5 sur R -0.5 surr L +0.5 sub -3.5. Here are my graphs. Any suggestions?
Attachment 187823

Attachment 187824

Attachment 187825

These look fine. That little residual wobble in the sub would likely respond well to some repositioning, but ARC has corrected enough of it, that I wouldn't bother. Enjoy!
--Bob

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post #30441 of 43014 Old 10-08-2010, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

I've completed the initial listening assessment of my new ARC V3.0 setup (described a few posts further up). It's the bee's knees! A keeper.
--Bob

+1!! All I can say is OMG! My system has never sounded better..after I finally got everything figured out. Thanks Bob! My family has developed a tradition that October is Scary Movie Month. It's been pretty fun because we watch movies that we would never consider otherwise. Anyway, we watched Drag Me to Hell on Blu-Ray the other night and the sound blew everyone away! It was incredible. It sounded so good that my sixteen year old wanted to hear Mass Effect II (I think) on his Xbox and now I can't get him back in his room.....

Steve
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post #30442 of 43014 Old 10-08-2010, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
Post the charts. You can select the Music charts in the View menu of the ARC application.

But keep in mind that with no subwoofer to support the low end of each speaker it is normal for ARC to try to use the speakers further down -- thus a lower cutoff for them.

----------------------------

Check that you have Room EQ turned ON for each Source using the Music configuration. And if the audio input is Analog, remember that you must use ANALOG-DSP for the Source so that the audio can be digitized and processed via ARC.
--Bob
I have attached my results. Comments welcomed.

Lou

 

ARC2.4Results.pdf 234.1474609375k . file
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post #30443 of 43014 Old 10-08-2010, 11:50 AM
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For folks who have "combo" speakers with powered woofers or attached satellite subs, keep in mind that you can also use the new Quick Measure feature of ARC to get a live view of what's happening to a given speaker's output as you make adjustments in the volume control for that powered woofer, and even the internal phase and crossover adjustments between the powered woofer and the rest of the drivers in that speaker if it offers such adjustments.

This will let you optimize the "uncorrected" output of each combo speaker in turn. Then do an ARC Measurement of your new, improved, set of speakers.
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post #30444 of 43014 Old 10-08-2010, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnerlk View Post

I have attached my results. Comments welcomed.

Lou

Please remember to include the Targets window when you post charts.

There are lots of problems in these charts, but nothing that should produce your original report of Music without the subwoofer being "muffled, quiet, lacked detail."

Did you check the other things I suggested? E.g., make sure Room EQ is ON for your Music Sources, and that analog audio Music Sources are set to ANALOG-DSP?

How did you disable the sub for ARC? Did you do a separate pass of Music Measurement with the subwoofer out of the configuration or did you disable the sub in ARC after taking only Movie Measurements. And if the latter, how did you do that?

Please look at your Music configuration in Setup and post the settings that ARC put in there when you did this Upload.

------------------------------------

As to the problems in the charts, your LF/RF both have a pretty big hole in their response between 50 and 300Hz. ARC is correcting that, but the fact that they Measure this way suggests a problem in the speakers or their setup.

If LF/RF have blown or disconnected woofers, they may Measure as still having some bass due to the low frequency response of their midrange drivers, but still not be able to produce bass at volume. Thus you could get red Measured curves like this but still not have good bass due to the inability of the speakers to produce bass at volume. With the subwoofer still in the mix the sub is handling those frequencies.

If LF/RF are "combo" speakers (with powered woofers or attached satellite subs) then their powered woofers are likely not set up correctly.

Your Center speaker also Measures oddly in bass. That may be an installation issue.

Your Rear surrounds have no bass at all.

In the V2.4 charts, your sub's Measured curve looks like it still has its internal crossover enabled (at around 80Hz).
--Bob

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post #30445 of 43014 Old 10-08-2010, 12:35 PM
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Looking at everyones uncorrected ARC measurements. It is coincidence that nearly everyone has huge dips in the 50 - 500 Hz range?
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post #30446 of 43014 Old 10-08-2010, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Alcasid View Post

Looking at everyones uncorrected ARC measurements. It is coincidence that nearly everyone has huge dips in the 50 - 500 Hz range?

Absolutely not. Look at my charts for example. These dips indicate problems -- often room problems (reflection cancellation nulls), but sometimes physical speaker problems.
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post #30447 of 43014 Old 10-08-2010, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Absolutely not. Look at my charts for example. These dips indicate problems -- often room problems (reflection cancellation nulls), but sometimes physical speaker problems.
--Bob

I just find it uncanny that nearly everyone have similar issue in that frequency range. It would indicate there is some common acoustic trait shared by our rooms or everyone is making the same placement mistakes.
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post #30448 of 43014 Old 10-08-2010, 01:18 PM
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I've just uploaded my ARC V3.0 setup's "default" 5KHz solution for comparison. This is the result as chosen by ARC, with no changes whatsoever. The charts are below. For comparison, my "tweaked" result charts can be found in this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19294530

Comparing the two sets of charts, you'll see that my speakers don't Measure as needing a lot of correction between 5KHz and 15KHz, so I wouldn't expect to hear much change up there, but we'll see. Again, part of the problem is figuring out whether the Measured results up that high are "real" in the first place.

Meanwhile the default solution reduces sub output above 80Hz compared to the tweaked solution. This won't alter steered bass since the crossovers from the main speakers are all below that, but it should reduce the upper end of LFE (which can go up to 120Hz). Now there's not much important LFE content up there -- not nearly so critical as what happens BELOW 80Hz -- but we'll see what it sounds like.

Partially countering that is that the default's choice for Room Gain is higher than what I used in my tweaked solution. This is only a 1/2 dB increase for Movie, but 1 1/2 dB for Music. It may be hard to separate these two changes in listening tests.

In addition, the default solution leaves a residual wobble in Center in the range 150-300Hz. It's not huge, but it's more than I would normally leave when manually tweaking things. It may effect male dialog clarity. We'll see. Since I exclude the Center from my Music configuration (used exclusively for stereo music content), the difference here won't alter Music.
--Bob
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL

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post #30449 of 43014 Old 10-08-2010, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnerlk View Post

I have attached my results. Comments welcomed.

Lou

I have never seen ARC correct such a huge dip as this. This is nearly a 10 dB fix. Does this seem odd to you Bob?
John

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post #30450 of 43014 Old 10-08-2010, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Alcasid View Post

I just find it uncanny that nearly everyone have similar issue in that frequency range. It would indicate there is some common acoustic trait shared by our rooms or everyone is making the same placement mistakes.

Well one fairly common mistake that can do this is having LF/RF too close to the wall/corner behind them. The specific room geometry and design of the speakers will determine whether this produces cancellation. But often moving the speakers further out is a good start in tackling this.

In addition, some folks also have room treatments that may be overdone. Absorbing too much in that frequency range.

And some folks have "combo" speakers where the transition between the powered woofers and the rest of the drivers in the speaker is not set up correctly.
--Bob

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