Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide - Page 1402 - AVS Forum
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post #42031 of 42944 Old 11-19-2013, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

And again, for multi-channel Music I have no qualms about using my Movie solution (which includes all the speakers including Center of course). That is, I know that the Movie solution is not compromised in any way as regards its "musicality". Again, these two solutions might just as well have been named Fred and Ethel.
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Bob,
I have a few SACD's and DVD-A's that I play using my 'movie' ARC solution and they sound fine. They were made to be played in a 5.1 setup.
I realize (now) that there is no special music solution. Fred and Ethel. A and B. #1 and #2 or whatever. Although I have to admit my results were different enough that I did think there may have been different algorithms.

My post was aimed at bluemark81. I wanted to show my 'target' page to illustrate how the room gain (which would boost sub output) was less in my 2.1 solution. I feel that he should try building different 5.1 and 2.1 solutions to try to tame his 'too obtrusive' subwoofers. And actually do a 5.1 and 2.1 ARC run, and not just a 5.1 run and then subtract the unused speakers in ARC Targets and recalculate, since that does not change 'room gain' or uploaded speaker gains. His speakers, sub and room are of course different than mine, but ARC has consistently reduced my 2.1 room gain and uploaded sub level. I just think its worth a try for him.

Tom

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post #42032 of 42944 Old 11-19-2013, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by vinodk View Post

Talked to customer support regarding my issue with failed uploads on MRX300. They told me to make sure baud rate is set at 19200 which I did but seems like my Keyspan adapter is not retaining those settings. How do I make these settings stick for the adapter? Port is COM1 with FIFO buffer of 16(default) & baud rate of 19200. After I changed the baud rate I still get partial uploads.

A while back I had problems with ARC runs. It would get hung up during speaker sweeps. It was fixed by temporally turning off my firewall. Might not help, but Its a simple enough thing to try.
Just remember to turn it back on after the firmware upload.
Hope this helps.

Tom

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post #42033 of 42944 Old 11-19-2013, 06:37 AM
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Thanks guys for all the help. Finally was able to finish the process after using a different laptop running Windows XP. Maybe my Keyspan adapter is not playing nice with Windows 7 laptop eventhough I have downloaded the correct driver. Also after running ARC had to bump up the sub level as it was 5db too low. Checked with Galaxy CM-140 spl meter & Audio toolkit test disc. Hopefully changing the sub level does not compromise ARC

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post #42034 of 42944 Old 11-19-2013, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

dtich,
Post the Targets window as well so folks can see the details of what you've set.

Your main problem is with the Subwoofer. First, it appears you have changed the low end Target to "FLAT" -- i.e., the High Pass Filter in the Targets > Advanced settings. The raw output of your Sub (red Measured curve) suggests that's a bad idea. Your Sub does not appear to have good output below 30Hz (not unusual for "everyday" home theater subs that aren't really configured to reproduce bass down in the region where bass is more felt than heard). By setting its low end Target to FLAT you are asking ARC to boost the signal to it down there, even though it can't handle it. As you can see, ARC still protects you in that it won't push more than +6dB of boost -- which is why the green Calculated line has residual error below the black dashed Target line at 20Hz. But still, pushing that much boost into a Sub that can't handle it is not good for the Sub. You can bottom the cone for example, or overheat its built in amp.

The weak output in the low bass may simply be due to the design of your Sub (i.e., you need to consider getting a better Sub), or it may be the Sub is physically too small for the volume of air space in your room -- you have to huff a lot of air to "pressurize" a room at 20Hz (consider a bigger Sub or adding a 2nd Sub) -- OR there may be a settings problem on the Sub. Look for any setting related to Boundary Gain Compensation -- i.e., correcting for a Sub too close to a wall -- and disable that. If there are ports you can open to enhance low bass output do that. If the Sub has a settings choice trading off volume vs. accuracy, switch it to accuracy.

If no luck with settings adjustments on the Sub, then you should spend some time with the Quick Measure tool (ARC's Tools menu) which will give you a real time chart of the raw, uncorrected output of the Sub as you try the Sub at different candidate locations. NOTE: After using Quick Measure you need to re-Upload an ARC solution as it disables the existing one in the Anthem -- if you've moved your Sub you should do the whole thing starting with a new Measurement. Basically what you are looking for is a candidate location which gives you better low bass output. For example, some "servo" subs are known to have problems when placed in a corner. Try shifting them up along a side wall. At these frequencies, even inches matter -- even just rotating the Sub in place. After moving the Sub remember to adjust its Distance setting and also recheck its Phase with respect to the main speakers.

The Quick Measure tool will also give you the fastest answer whether settings changes on the Sub are helping.

Meanwhile, at the high end it appears your Sub's built-in Crossover may be artificially reducing its high bass output. It might still be enabled at, say 80Hz -- perhaps because a "THX" preset is enabled. Since ARC is going to do your Crossover processing, you don't want anything in the Sub artificially limiting its high bass output. So disable the Crossover built into the Sub, or if that's not possible, then crank it up to the highest frequency to get it out of the way as much as possible.

Ideally, you want the Sub to be able to contribute up to 120Hz, which is the top end of the LFE channel.



As for your Main speakers, I think you've been a bit too aggressive in lowering Crossover for LF/RF. The Calculated curve for LF has residual error (i.e,. it is below the Target curve) throughout the region below the Crossover frequency. It is not a big error, but raising the Crossover a bit will eliminate that. Ideally you are looking for a clean Octave (factor of 2 in frequency) below the Crossover setting. That is, if the Crossover for LF/RF is 80Hz you should be checking the match between Calculated and Target for them down to 1/2 of that -- 40Hz. The Crossover rolls into effect over about an Octave, and so you want them to be able to contribute clean output down to there.



It looks like you've got a Room Cancellation Null near 150Hz -- the dip in the Measured curves -- affecting all but Center for some reason. That may be why ARC is detecting a low Room Gain in the room. It may also be that you've got bass treatments installed or that your room is quite large.

Normally, I'd suggest you increase the Room Gain setting to 2dB -- which gets it into the range sound engineers expect for listening rooms when mixing movies. HOWEVER, doing that will require ARC to provide a bit more boost in that problem region near 150Hz. So you need to see whether raising Room Gain introduces residual error in there and compromise a bit. The specific choice of Crossover you pick (raising it up from the 60Hz you have now as suggested above) will have an impact on how clean things are in there as well, so experiment a bit.
--Bob


thanks for all the insight bob. i did tweak my xover, and set sub to auto, not much room to move it around physically, so i'll live with the results at this point. still having the upload issue, anthem tech is flummoxed, i am trying a fw reinstall tonight, see if that jogs anything loose... thx again.

dt
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post #42035 of 42944 Old 11-19-2013, 10:23 AM
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Are there any issues with forcing a 120 hz cutoff on arc, if it doesn't compromise the other speaker calculated curves?
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post #42036 of 42944 Old 11-19-2013, 10:24 AM
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^^ for the sub, that is.
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post #42037 of 42944 Old 11-19-2013, 11:11 AM
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^ No. If all the curves continue to look good (Calculated closely tracks Target) then you are good to go. Note that the CROSSOVER Uploaded for the Sub may very well be different from the Sub Cutoff value you specify. This is part of matching the Crossover from the main speakers. This is normal and not an indication of any problems.
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post #42038 of 42944 Old 11-19-2013, 11:43 AM
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Thank you, bob
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post #42039 of 42944 Old 11-19-2013, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinodk View Post

after running ARC had to bump up the sub level as it was 5db too low. Checked with Galaxy CM-140 spl meter & Audio toolkit test disc. Hopefully changing the sub level does not compromise ARC

It sure does break ARC. Adjust LFE trims in the Anthem not the sub itself.

There should not be a 5dB discrepancy unless there is something wrong with the test disc or the way you are measuring.

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post #42040 of 42944 Old 11-19-2013, 01:02 PM
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Just upgraded my firmware from 2.07 (eek.gif) to 3.09 for my D2v....easy!

Looks like some fairly decent changes!

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post #42041 of 42944 Old 11-19-2013, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by vinodk View Post

Thanks guys for all the help. Finally was able to finish the process after using a different laptop running Windows XP. Maybe my Keyspan adapter is not playing nice with Windows 7 laptop eventhough I have downloaded the correct driver. Also after running ARC had to bump up the sub level as it was 5db too low. Checked with Galaxy CM-140 spl meter & Audio toolkit test disc. Hopefully changing the sub level does not compromise ARC

I strongly recommend you do NOT alter the levels that ARC has set. ARC is much more accurate than what any SPL meter can do, because the SPL meter is averaging across frequencies.

If you are seeing precisely a 5dB or 10dB error, those are suspicious numbers. Quite a few test discs have problems in how they encode the LFE channel, and quite a few older Blu-ray players have errors in their handling of the LFE channel that can lead to +/- 5 or 10dB errors.

If the test track is a Bitstream track, to see if it is a player issue, compare LPCM vs. Bitstream output from your player.

My typical recommendation if you want to double-check ARC is to use the LPCM test tracks found on AIX Audio Calibration, Blu-ray.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
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post #42042 of 42944 Old 11-20-2013, 07:00 AM
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Which is better for adjusting the sub level so that ARC is not compromised, adjusting the level in speaker setup menu or adjusting the gain on the sub itself? The test disc I am using is made by Goldline. They make professional acoustic equipment therefore I am assuming that their test disc is lot more accurate than the consumer grade test discs.

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post #42043 of 42944 Old 11-20-2013, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinodk View Post

Which is better for adjusting the sub level so that ARC is not compromised, adjusting the level in speaker setup menu or adjusting the gain on the sub itself?

Neither, ARC sets the gains based on the measured response and the EQ it applies to each speaker, it's a lot more accurate than a pink noise measurement with an SPL meter.
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The test disc I am using is made by Goldline. They make professional acoustic equipment therefore I am assuming that their test disc is lot more accurate than the consumer grade test discs.

But it's still less accurate to measure pink noise than what ARC is doing.

Are you actually noticing something wrong with the sound and trying to find the cause, or simply double checking ARC and finding a discrepancy?

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #42044 of 42944 Old 11-20-2013, 07:53 AM
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After setting ARC I have found that the sub performance is quite lacking with the program material, both music & movies & I do understand that the ARC is lot more accurate than test tones from a disc. Is there a way to adjust LFE level with MRX without effecting ARC calculations? I am using two SI HT-18D4 subs wired for 2 ohms powered by Crown XLS1000 amp in a 2600cuft room so its not an issue of not having enough subwoofage.

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post #42045 of 42944 Old 11-20-2013, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinodk View Post

After setting ARC I have found that the sub performance is quite lacking with the program material, both music & movies & I do understand that the ARC is lot more accurate than test tones from a disc. Is there a way to adjust LFE level with MRX without effecting ARC calculations? I am using two SI HT-18D4 subs wired for 2 ohms powered by Crown XLS1000 amp in a 2600cuft room so its not an issue of not having enough subwoofage.

Could be a phase issue between subs or between teh sub and the other speakers. double sub systems are more times than not set up incorrectly.
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post #42046 of 42944 Old 11-20-2013, 11:01 AM
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I do not believe its a phase issue as I have checked graphs with SMS-1 & I have not noticed any cancellation issues either in listening sessions or when using test disc with spl meter. Both subs are located in front in tandem with front speakers & all the wiring is appropriate. Even the quick measure of ARC or the ARC graphs do not show any obvious response anomolies which I would expect to see with phase anomolies. Eventhough it may not be 100% accurate, when I did manual speaker level check & setup with test tones without ARC from MRX as well as test disc all speakers including sub were within 2db of each other which I am assuming would not be the case with subs that are out of phase with mains especially if they are in the same plane. Please educate me if I am wrong.

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post #42047 of 42944 Old 11-20-2013, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by vinodk View Post

Is there a way to adjust LFE level with MRX without effecting ARC calculations?

Yes, I was the first to reply but perhaps I am invisible. I said use the LFE trims - they are available on the remote and get applied per INPUT signal format (Dolby, DTS, PCM) on the AVM/D. If you have an MRX it may work slightly different.

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post #42048 of 42944 Old 11-20-2013, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by vinodk View Post

I do not believe its a phase issue as I have checked graphs with SMS-1 & I have not noticed any cancellation issues either in listening sessions or when using test disc with spl meter. Both subs are located in front in tandem with front speakers & all the wiring is appropriate. Even the quick measure of ARC or the ARC graphs do not show any obvious response anomolies which I would expect to see with phase anomolies. Eventhough it may not be 100% accurate, when I did manual speaker level check & setup with test tones without ARC from MRX as well as test disc all speakers including sub were within 2db of each other which I am assuming would not be the case with subs that are out of phase with mains especially if they are in the same plane. Please educate me if I am wrong.

I don't know about SMS-1 but ARC and SPL with test tones do not show inter-channel phase issues, as they only measure one channel at a time. You would have to play the tone in all channels with all speakers unplugged and gradually plug them in and verify you get +3dB for each speaker you add. Anyway I'm not saying you are having phase issues, just correcting your logic.

Sometimes the user's expectations for amount of bass needs "adjustment" but you say everything was balanced nicely before ARC and you thought it was just right then. It is more likely some measurement in the room is throwing off ARC. What is it coming up with for room gain?

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post #42049 of 42944 Old 11-20-2013, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinodk View Post

After setting ARC I have found that the sub performance is quite lacking with the program material, both music & movies & I do understand that the ARC is lot more accurate than test tones from a disc. Is there a way to adjust LFE level with MRX without effecting ARC calculations? I am using two SI HT-18D4 subs wired for 2 ohms powered by Crown XLS1000 amp in a 2600cuft room so its not an issue of not having enough subwoofage.

Please post your charts and targets.

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post #42050 of 42944 Old 11-20-2013, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinodk View Post

After setting ARC I have found that the sub performance is quite lacking with the program material, both music & movies & I do understand that the ARC is lot more accurate than test tones from a disc. Is there a way to adjust LFE level with MRX without effecting ARC calculations? I am using two SI HT-18D4 subs wired for 2 ohms powered by Crown XLS1000 amp in a 2600cuft room so its not an issue of not having enough subwoofage.
If you run a test disc, what are the SPL readings of the L and LFE channels? (Please specify which disc you use.)

If you can make the measurements with ARC and without (if that represents the per-ARC condition), all the better.

BTW, it is not unusual to need to change the sub level. In my case, the Music present needs 6 dB more sub drive than the Movie preset. YMMV.
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post #42051 of 42944 Old 11-20-2013, 03:11 PM
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Hi Roger, I am using Audio tool kit 5.1 disc from Goldline. The sub channel test tone says LFE channel & I believe the frequency sweep is specified from 40hz-80hz. I will double check.

Vinod
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post #42052 of 42944 Old 11-20-2013, 04:26 PM
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Hi Roger, I am using Audio tool kit 5.1 disc from Goldline. The sub channel test tone says LFE channel & I believe the frequency sweep is specified from 40hz-80hz. I will double check.
Good. I have the Goldline disc, so no need to check anything but you readings. The main channels will read ~ 71 dB SPL from a calibrated system (not 75 dB) because the tones were recorded at -30 dBFS with Dialnorm offset of -4 dB.

So if you read 70-ish dB in the L channel, just curious to see what it reads for LFE. cool.gif
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post #42053 of 42944 Old 11-20-2013, 05:07 PM
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LFE is always reading around 5-7db lower than lt main. This is after ARC. I even tried manually zeroing out & setting the speaker levels prior to running ARC using the test disc but still ended up with 5-7db lower on LFE channel after ARC.

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post #42054 of 42944 Old 11-20-2013, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

Yes, I was the first to reply but perhaps I am invisible. I said use the LFE trims - they are available on the remote and get applied per INPUT signal format (Dolby, DTS, PCM) on the AVM/D. If you have an MRX it may work slightly different.

+1
Exactly what I would recommend. Raise or lower the sub db output without changing ARC or your settings
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post #42055 of 42944 Old 11-20-2013, 06:22 PM
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I will check the MRX remote to change the sub LFE level but as far as I can tell in the speaker or source setup menu I do not recall provision for adjusting LFE level. Only thing I see under source setup menu is tone controls for bass & treble. My concern is if I change the sub level using remote its probably no different than changing sub level from speaker setup menu & the changes made with remote will revert back to original settings once the unit is powered off.

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post #42056 of 42944 Old 11-20-2013, 08:14 PM
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Checked the channel trims using the remote & LFE is already at 0db. Do I need to recheck when the source is playing to change LFE for each format?

Vinod
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post #42057 of 42944 Old 11-21-2013, 01:02 AM
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LFE is always reading around 5-7db lower than lt main. This is after ARC. I even tried manually zeroing out & setting the speaker levels prior to running ARC using the test disc but still ended up with 5-7db lower on LFE channel after ARC.

What player are you using to play this test disc. -5dB error in LFE sounds suspiciously like a player problem -- not so common these days, but use to be more common.

Is the test track in question a Bitstream or an LPCM track? If a Bitstream, test both ways -- i.e., both Bitstream output and LPCM output from the player. A player error will only be possible when using LPCM output.
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post #42058 of 42944 Old 11-21-2013, 01:17 AM
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I am using Sony BDP-5000ES in bitstream. I also have Oppo BPD83 that I can try to see it works better. Not sure if Oppo has the same LFE error.

Vinod
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post #42059 of 42944 Old 11-21-2013, 01:46 AM
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^ I know the OPPO does not have the type of error I'm talking about. It's unlikely the Sony does either, but I'm not familiar with what settings the Sony has that might screw this up.

--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
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post #42060 of 42944 Old 11-21-2013, 06:32 AM
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Hello guys, can anyone upload older firmware for Anthem AVM50 (not V), i look for 1.31 version. i try to upgrade to 1.33, but become "cannot connect to oki bootloader" , maybe, then i upgrade down to 1.31 and next to 1.33 would be all ok.
Tkanks
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