Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide - Page 1405 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #42121 of 44652 Old 12-10-2013, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ManWithAPlan View Post

Porschetech,

Let us know how you made out on things with this. By the way, I understand you want to keep both the XBOX360 and XBOX One active because you have old games for the 360 and all. Why not just use the HDMI input on the One and connect your old 360 directly into the XBox One, and then run ONLY the XBOX One to the D2? If I end up buying a One, this is likely how I'll do it. This way, you can still get the "slide-overs" in the One's GUI, on top of or to the sides of your 360's output. I am NOT convinced in using the XBOX One to route Cable TV or Satellite through directly, but others will likely disagree. But I do think that the use case of using the 360 *through* the One makes perfect sense. Especially for those that are running out of "virtual" inputs on the D2V, like myself :-)

Anyways, let us know what you did there.

Haven't had a chance to do anything yet. Will let you know what I find
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post #42122 of 44652 Old 12-10-2013, 10:03 PM
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Question: And please forgive me if this has already been addressed...If Arc shows me that I have say a 10 db null from 200hz to 80hz & the solution only corrects 5 db of it, theoretically, would raising the bass tone cnrl 5 db do anything to correct that? I realize all of the bass would be added to, not just the null but I'm wondering if a null can even be treated if it is that pronounced (10 db). Anyone? Thanks
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post #42123 of 44652 Old 12-10-2013, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post

One particular culprit is the Apple TV. If the Anthem and display are powered down and the AppleTV is left on and then the display and the Anthem are started back up, we will sometimes get video but no audio for the AppleTV.

Do you have a 3D unit and video output set to THROUGH? There is a no audio bug when powering up the Anthem to a source set to THROUGH if the TV is OFF.

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post #42124 of 44652 Old 12-10-2013, 10:51 PM
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This concerns my use of Analog-Direct and ARC as well the Oppo 105 channel trims....

 

I happen to use Analog DSP for stereo sources and ARC for the rest. Now, I have set the trims in the Oppo 105 according the channel trim levels that ARC produced. Is this valid?


How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #42125 of 44652 Old 12-11-2013, 06:59 AM
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I know that there may not be an answer for this...but has Anthem announced/hinted at any future plans for HDMI 2.0/4K passthrough, etc. upgrades to our units? 4K isn't all that big this year but 2014 should see the introduction of 4K BD, more sources, etc. The displays are getting out there as is HDMI 2.0. Hopefully, Anthem won't be left behind!

John
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post #42126 of 44652 Old 12-11-2013, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

This concerns my use of Analog-Direct and ARC as well the Oppo 105 channel trims....

I happen to use Analog DSP for stereo sources and ARC for the rest. Now, I have set the trims in the Oppo 105 according the channel trim levels that ARC produced. Is this valid?

Not enough information. Have you separately wired the Dedicated Stereo Analog outputs of the 105. Is the 105 set to Stereo Signal DOWN-MIXED STEREO? If so, the Analog output volume trims you've set in the 105 for its multi-channel Analog outputs are not used for that Analog Stereo connection.

In the Anthem, you say you use ANALOG-DSP for stereo analog sources. Did you mean do say ANALOG-DIRECT? If you are using ANALOG-DSP you should also use ARC for those stereo sources, since you are already telling the Anthem to re-digitize the Analog input.

As for "the rest" where you use ARC, do you mean 5.1 Analog input from the 105? Or HDMI? The Analog speaker volume trims in the 105 only affect its multi-channel Analog outputs (and the Dedicated Stereo outputs when Stereo Signal FRONT LEFT/RIGHT is set). If you are using 5.1 Analog input with ANALOG-DSP and ARC then don't do volume trims in the OPPO. ARC does that. If you are doing 5.1 Analog with ANALOG-DIRECT set (and thus no ARC), do all the settings in the OPPO. You can use the values ARC found as a starting point, but then recheck and adjust with a calibration disc, because the ARC volumes are also modified by the Room Correction parameters.
--Bob

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post #42127 of 44652 Old 12-11-2013, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnsteph10 View Post

I know that there may not be an answer for this...but has Anthem announced/hinted at any future plans for HDMI 2.0/4K passthrough, etc. upgrades to our units? 4K isn't all that big this year but 2014 should see the introduction of 4K BD, more sources, etc. The displays are getting out there as is HDMI 2.0. Hopefully, Anthem won't be left behind!

Nothing stated yet.

ASK.AGAIN.LATER -- THE.FUTURE.IS.HAZY

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post #42128 of 44652 Old 12-11-2013, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gcobb22 View Post

Question: And please forgive me if this has already been addressed...If Arc shows me that I have say a 10 db null from 200hz to 80hz & the solution only corrects 5 db of it, theoretically, would raising the bass tone cnrl 5 db do anything to correct that? I realize all of the bass would be added to, not just the null but I'm wondering if a null can even be treated if it is that pronounced (10 db). Anyone? Thanks

The reason ARC won't apply more than +6dB boost is that it is not a good idea to force higher levels of power into a speaker where a room null is just eating it up anyway. You are stressing the amp and speaker to minimal effect -- like trying to fill a bucket with a big hole in the bottom -- faster water in just means faster water leaking out. If you've got a deep dip like that, then start by repositioning the speakers (e.g. further from the wall). Quick Measure tool in ARC can help find a candidate location. Room treatments to cut bass reflections off the walls can also help.
--Bob
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post #42129 of 44652 Old 12-11-2013, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post

One particular culprit is the Apple TV. If the Anthem and display are powered down and the AppleTV is left on and then the display and the Anthem are started back up, we will sometimes get video but no audio for the AppleTV. Apple's tech notes state that this is something that is symptomatic when there are receivers or switchers used between the AppleTV and the display.

I've been looking at products like switchers with EDID editing capabilities and also Dr. HDMI, but I was wondering if there was any such capability within the Anthem itself—the 50v/D2v specifically.

Anyone know the answer to this?

Thanks!

I was under the impression the AppleTV is on all the time. I do not have one but at a friends it appeared to always be on or in standby.
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post #42130 of 44652 Old 12-11-2013, 01:40 PM
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It is. Even if the little white LED on the front isn't on and makes you think it is actually off, the HDMI output is still active. I have a DVDO Quick6 that shows you which inputs are live at any time and the Apple one is always on even when it appears that it is in standby mode.
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post #42131 of 44652 Old 12-11-2013, 01:41 PM
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Correct. But you can also put it into a sleep mode after x hours. I have mine on all the time and still makes no difference. I have a complicated HDMI chain so it's not surprising. Once in a blue moon even my Oppo will not work and I'll need to reboot things

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post #42132 of 44652 Old 12-11-2013, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gcobb22 View Post

Question: And please forgive me if this has already been addressed...If Arc shows me that I have say a 10 db null from 200hz to 80hz & the solution only corrects 5 db of it, theoretically, would raising the bass tone cnrl 5 db do anything to correct that? I realize all of the bass would be added to, not just the null but I'm wondering if a null can even be treated if it is that pronounced (10 db). Anyone? Thanks

Please post your charts so that we can see where the problem may be.

"When all else fails, read the manual."
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post #42133 of 44652 Old 12-11-2013, 09:45 PM
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Feel free to comment on the charts I posted above with any recommendations. Thanks.
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post #42134 of 44652 Old 12-11-2013, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

This concerns my use of Analog-Direct and ARC as well the Oppo 105 channel trims....

I happen to use Analog DSP for stereo sources and ARC for the rest. Now, I have set the trims in the Oppo 105 according the channel trim levels that ARC produced. Is this valid?

 

 

Not enough information. Have you separately wired the Dedicated Stereo Analog outputs of the 105[YES]. Is the 105 set to Stereo Signal DOWN-MIXED STEREO? [YES].  If so, the Analog output volume trims you've set in the 105 for its multi-channel Analog outputs are not used for that Analog Stereo connection [GOOD TO KNOW].

In the Anthem, you say you use ANALOG-DSP for stereo analog sources. Did you mean do say ANALOG-DIRECT[
YES MY MISTAKE]? If you are using ANALOG-DSP you should also use ARC for those stereo sources, since you are already telling the Anthem to re-digitize the Analog input.

As for "the rest" where you use ARC, do you mean 5.1 Analog input from the 105[
NO]? Or HDMI [YES]? The Analog speaker volume trims in the 105 only affect its multi-channel Analog outputs (and the Dedicated Stereo outputs when Stereo Signal FRONT LEFT/RIGHT is set [OK]). If you are using 5.1 Analog input with ANALOG-DSP and ARC then don't do volume trims in the OPPO. ARC does that. If you are doing 5.1 Analog with ANALOG-DIRECT set (and thus no ARC), do all the settings in the OPPO [OK]. You can use the values ARC found as a starting point, but then recheck and adjust with a calibration disc, because the ARC volumes are also modified by the Room Correction parameters [WILL DO].
--Bob

 

 

Also, wouldn't I loose the sub frequencies if I set stereo signal to FRONT LEFT/RIGHT since I have the xover set to 100Hz?


How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #42135 of 44652 Old 12-14-2013, 04:26 AM
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Hi guys a quick question. I have been able to get a 2nd hand SVS AS-EQ unit (I used to own one before purchasing the D2v) and just read the manual that I downloaded. My concern is this part in the manual:

Take the Calibration Microphone from your AVR or Pre/Pro (NOT the Calibration Microphone from the
AS-EQ1) and plug it into the Pass-through Mic In jack located on the front of the AS-EQ1.

3. Locate the calibration microphone “patch cable” that came with your AS-EQ1 (1/8” mono male connectors
on each end). Plug one end into the AS-EQ1’s Passthrough Mic Out jack, and the other end into the
Calibration Microphone input jack on your AVR or Pre/Pro.

The Mic that comes with Anthem is USB not a 1/8 Jack cable end so how do I connect the Anthems mic to the AS-EQ and does the D2v have a Microphone input jack for connecting the "Patch Cable"?
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post #42136 of 44652 Old 12-14-2013, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonNo10 View Post

Hi guys a quick question. I have been able to get a 2nd hand SVS AS-EQ unit (I used to own one before purchasing the D2v) and just read the manual that I downloaded. My concern is this part in the manual:

Take the Calibration Microphone from your AVR or Pre/Pro (NOT the Calibration Microphone from the
AS-EQ1) and plug it into the Pass-through Mic In jack located on the front of the AS-EQ1.

3. Locate the calibration microphone “patch cable” that came with your AS-EQ1 (1/8” mono male connectors
on each end). Plug one end into the AS-EQ1’s Passthrough Mic Out jack, and the other end into the
Calibration Microphone input jack on your AVR or Pre/Pro.

The Mic that comes with Anthem is USB not a 1/8 Jack cable end so how do I connect the Anthems mic to the AS-EQ and does the D2v have a Microphone input jack for connecting the "Patch Cable"?

The SVS AS-EQ1 was a unit made jointly by SVS an Audyssey. The instructions you quote are for Audyssey equipped units with Audyssey mics (or Audyssey Pro-Kits/mics).

Ignore these instructions and use the Mic that came with the AS-EQ1 and set up your subs. Its been a while since I had an AS-EQ1, but you will connect the sub1 and 2 out from the Anthem into the sub in on the AS-EQ1, and then out from the AS-EQ1 to your subs. Ignore any intructions about hooking up any other speakers.
When running the AS-EQ1's calibration it will generate its own test tones to equalize the subs. The Anthem doesn't need to be on or involved in any way during the AS-EQ1 equalization run.
If I remember correctly during the AS-EQ1 run it will go from sub1 to sub2 and then try to go to LF speaker and it will say it can't find the speaker. You will need to skip this step. I think you just hit the 'next' button, and it will then complete the sub sweeps and calibration.

After running and uploading the AS-EQ1 file into the AS-EQ1 , your subs are then ready for you to run ARC. Since ARC treats your subs as one just leave the AS-EQ1 turned on and run ARC as usual.

After running ARC I would suggest you follow the link on dmusoke's signature to tweak the phase for the subs. This isn't necessary, but highly encouraged to get everything just right.

SVS has an amazing customer service department, so if you have any problems don't hesitate to email them. I seem to remember getting help on the weekend from them. Hope this helps.
Tom

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post #42137 of 44652 Old 12-14-2013, 11:11 AM
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post #42138 of 44652 Old 12-14-2013, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tngiloy View Post

The SVS AS-EQ1 was a unit made jointly by SVS an Audyssey. The instructions you quote are for Audyssey equipped units with Audyssey mics (or Audyssey Pro-Kits/mics).

Ignore these instructions and use the Mic that came with the AS-EQ1 and set up your subs. Its been a while since I had an AS-EQ1, but you will connect the sub1 and 2 out from the Anthem into the sub in on the AS-EQ1, and then out from the AS-EQ1 to your subs. Ignore any intructions about hooking up any other speakers.
When running the AS-EQ1's calibration it will generate its own test tones to equalize the subs. The Anthem doesn't need to be on or involved in any way during the AS-EQ1 equalization run.
If I remember correctly during the AS-EQ1 run it will go from sub1 to sub2 and then try to go to LF speaker and it will say it can't find the speaker. You will need to skip this step. I think you just hit the 'next' button, and it will then complete the sub sweeps and calibration.

After running and uploading the AS-EQ1 file into the AS-EQ1 , your subs are then ready for you to run ARC. Since ARC treats your subs as one just leave the AS-EQ1 turned on and run ARC as usual.

After running ARC I would suggest you follow the link on dmusoke's signature to tweak the phase for the subs. This isn't necessary, but highly encouraged to get everything just right.

SVS has an amazing customer service department, so if you have any problems don't hesitate to email them. I seem to remember getting help on the weekend from them. Hope this helps.
Tom

Many thanks for the reply and assist. My concern is that it says this:

The AS-EQ1 is designed to integrate with any Auto EQ system that may be part of your AVR or Pre/Pro.

If you use the Auto EQ feature of your AVR or Pre/Pro (unless it is an Audyssey-equipped
device) to EQ your listening environment, you MUST perform this step first. If you do not, your AVR or Pre/
Pro and the AS-EQ1 will both apply EQ correction files to the subwoofer, which will result in poor subwoofer
sound/performance.


So if I don't connect the Anthem's Mic and perform the task wont the D2v apply it's sub eq (ARC) over the ASEQ's? The last time I did this I owned a NAD T-175HD pre-pro with a Pro Audyssey Kit which was over 3 years ago. I'm a bit rusty with the SVS EQ unit which I take delivery of later today, it's being dropped off to my work as I'm working today (Sunday).

On a side note i decided to play around with Quick Measure and moved the front Submersive around and rotated the rear one to see if i could improve things but was very small changes. So after listening to the test tones I thought the rear Submersive was too low so I turned it up one notch and then turned the front submersive down one notch and ran Quick Measure. To my surprise the graph was much improved and brought up a dip making the in room response curve more flat than before (not perfect). This is the best result I've had thus far so I'm leaving it as is until the ASEQ arrives. I'm sure when I test using my Analogue SPL meter one of the subs is going to read over 75db and one will be below by 2-3db approx but ARC will adjust as necessary.
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post #42139 of 44652 Old 12-14-2013, 01:42 PM
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^
I understand your concern, but having used the AS-EQ1 with my D2 (before it died) without doing the 'auto eq' step with great success I know this is the way to go.
It will apply both correction files, but that's OK. More than OK. ARC will be correcting things that the AS-EQ1 didn't have the power to correct. In my case it sounded great. YMMV, ofcourse, but I bet you'll be very happy. If you're not happy please pm me and I'll be happy to take the AS-EQ1 off your hands (for the right price of course).

In the Anthem all you need to do is set the levels in section 3.5 for the 'test level' (using the controls in the D2v menu) and your subwoofers (using the gain controls on your subs) to 75db with an SPL measurement meter set to C-weight/ slow. Don't worry too much if the sub level in the Anthem setup is a little off of 75db, since ARC will correct for that. If its more than what ARC can correct for ( think it can correct up to 10db) or if you want your subs to read at exactly 75 db, then adjust each sub the same amount. It seems to me that the AS-EQ1 set my subs off by @4db, but ARC easily compensated for that.
You will do this after using the AS-EQ1 sub equalization. This will do what the 'auto eq' step does, which is only to level match the subs to your speakers. The AS-EQ1 only applies correction to your subs. The 'auto eq' does not do any room eq to your speakers. There is no way to connect for ARC and the AS-EQ1 together. They are apples and oranges in how their systems work. They can not be run together. But like apples and oranges, they taste really good when combined correctly.

But really, if you're concerned (and I can understand why you are) contact SVS support.They are excellent. Explain your situation. See what they say. They are pro's and this isn't their first rodeo for helping set up the AS-EQ1 with an Anthem ARC equipped unit.

Tom

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post #42140 of 44652 Old 12-15-2013, 01:05 AM
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Ok i hooked it up and got the connection correct and ran the ASEQ calibration for each sub. I just finished running ARC and here is the result:

ARCwithASEQ.jpg 634k .jpg file

To say that it's the best I've ever seen my sub curve is an understatement. I'm yet to test the system as I've just now finished and posted here. Will need to fine tune ARC by adding some room gain and change the sub setting to flat and reload.

Update. Added graghs to show how it effected the rest of the speakers.

Gragh1.jpg 634k .jpg file

Targets.jpg 109k .jpg file

SVS ASEQ Before and after:

svssubeqresult.JPG 85k .JPG file

I've since added 3.0 room gain and changed the sub setting to Flat. I will test the system soon and see/hear the result.
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post #42141 of 44652 Old 12-15-2013, 07:19 AM
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Looks much better, congrats.
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post #42142 of 44652 Old 12-15-2013, 08:19 AM
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SimonNo10,

So I guess you won't be looking to sell the AS-EQ1 anytime soon. Were you able to get help from SVS ? I know they responded to me over a weekend when I was having concerns.

Your subwoofer graphs look much better. You still have a dip in your fronts around 250hz. Have you tried using QM and repositioning your fronts to smooth that out ?? It looks like ARC is taking care of most of the dip, but the less ARC needs to correct the better.

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post #42143 of 44652 Old 12-15-2013, 11:09 AM
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Simon;

 

I wouldn't randomly add ANY room gain until the 250Hz dip in the mains has been resolved by speaker positioning. Once resolved, then ARC will calculate a satisfactory in for you.

 

Secondly, it would hurt to increase your target frequency correction to 10kHz. Your speakers can handle it just fine.

 

Thirdly, it seems you used the dual discrete in - dual discrete out channel configuration mode for the AS-EQ1. Note that the Anthem see's both sub inputs as 1 input. Same for the outputs. They are identical outputs split into 2 signals.

 

Though physically wired in Dual discrete mode, I believe you should have used the One IN to two OUT mode as the Anthem doesn't output stereo bass signals. Both sub outputs of the anthem are exactly identical...but I'm curious about the Dual IN-Dual out mode you are using.


How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #42144 of 44652 Old 12-15-2013, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tngiloy View Post

SimonNo10,

So I guess you won't be looking to sell the AS-EQ1 anytime soon. Were you able to get help from SVS ? I know they responded to me over a weekend when I was having concerns.

Your subwoofer graphs look much better. You still have a dip in your fronts around 250hz. Have you tried using QM and repositioning your fronts to smooth that out ?? It looks like ARC is taking care of most of the dip, but the less ARC needs to correct the better.

Tom

I didn't contact them I got home from work and like an excited kid I hooked up the unit and proceeded with the calibration (8 positions). As it's been so long since I owned one of these I now remember something about the ASEQ setting subs low and after running ARC afterwards it set the trim to +8. I personally wasn't happy with that so pulled out the SPL meter and after adjusting each sub I ran ARC again and got it to -1.5. It's safe to say I'm keeping the ASEQ as I've been regretting selling mine when I owned one sub (SVS B4+ at the time). Thank you for for input and assist.
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post #42145 of 44652 Old 12-15-2013, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

Simon;

I wouldn't randomly add ANY room gain until the 250Hz dip in the mains has been resolved by speaker positioning. Once resolved, then ARC will calculate a satisfactory in for you.

Secondly, it would hurt to increase your target frequency correction to 10kHz. Your speakers can handle it just fine.

Thirdly, it seems you used the dual discrete in - dual discrete out channel configuration mode for the AS-EQ1. Note that the Anthem see's both sub inputs as 1 input. Same for the outputs. They are identical outputs split into 2 signals.

Though physically wired in Dual discrete mode, I believe you should have used the One IN to two OUT mode as the Anthem doesn't output stereo bass signals. Both sub outputs of the anthem are exactly identical...but I'm curious about the Dual IN-Dual out mode you are using.

Thanks for the reply. I didn't think too much when I chose to select that option as it was how I had connected it but didn't give it any further thought on how the D2v handled it. Unfortunately I can't move the fronts anywhere due to the nature of the room so the 250hz dip is there to stay. So your curiosity is that in a negative way or positive and should I start again and select One IN to Two OUT. Will it make any difference at all when running ARC?

New charts after changing Target to 10kHZ and no room gain added but sub changed to Flat.

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post #42146 of 44652 Old 12-15-2013, 03:10 PM
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Simon ...my curiosity was in a positive way definitely and the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me.

 

So you can't move your fronts but that null at 250hz or so is a room resonance null (all frequency anomalies under 300Hz are due to speaker-room interactions). ARC was forced to add so much gain in that region that no more resources were available to add any more gain.

 

Do you have bass/mid-bass room treatments that can help reduce (sometimes eliminate) this mid-bass dip? Since you are down-under, I can't recommend audio companies who'd sell you bass treatments but I'm sure you have plenty down there... and these things can look very pretty:).

 

 

David


How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #42147 of 44652 Old 12-15-2013, 03:28 PM
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When using the AS-EQ1 I would only use a single sub out from the Anthem and select one sub in - two out in the AS-EQ setup when using Audyssey. YOU NEED TO RUN THE SAT CHANNEL OUT OF THE AS-EQ despite what you've been told in this thread already. Especially since you have dual subs in different parts of the room. ARC is limited in that it can't do any phase adjustments to speakers. The AS-EQ will not only properly phase your subs to the mains (and take into account its own processing delay) but also the subs to each other. This is imperative to giving you the best performance for your system. Make sure you enter in the distance it says for your sub when you're done running the calibration with the EQ before you run ARC in the D2V. Use actual distance measurements for the other channels in your system.

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post #42148 of 44652 Old 12-15-2013, 04:44 PM
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^

 

I have mine setup as you've described and though the Anthems produces identical signals on its dual sub outputs, I am curious about the discrete dual-in and dual output mode of the EQ1 for my 2 subs. I'd think it would be the best sub configuration?


How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #42149 of 44652 Old 12-15-2013, 04:51 PM
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For those who have the Oppo 105, have you passed the video output of your cable/satellite box into the HDMI-IN of the Oppo and have the Oppo process it instead of the cable/sat boxes or having the Anthem process the video? Which mode looks best?


How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #42150 of 44652 Old 12-15-2013, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

When using the AS-EQ1 I would only use a single sub out from the Anthem and select one sub in - two out in the AS-EQ setup when using Audyssey. YOU NEED TO RUN THE SAT CHANNEL OUT OF THE AS-EQ despite what you've been told in this thread already. Especially since you have dual subs in different parts of the room. ARC is limited in that it can't do any phase adjustments to speakers. The AS-EQ will not only properly phase your subs to the mains (and take into account its own processing delay) but also the subs to each other. This is imperative to giving you the best performance for your system. Make sure you enter in the distance it says for your sub when you're done running the calibration with the EQ before you run ARC in the D2V. Use actual distance measurements for the other channels in your system.

Ah bugger really frown.gif Oh well it looks like I'm starting from scratch. Thanks for the heads up.
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