Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide - Page 1450 - AVS Forum
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post #43471 of 43496 Old 12-15-2014, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicoff View Post
I finally had a chance to run the tests suggested by Bob.

I set up the Oppo to output DSD audio on SACD sources. Then I listened to an SACD as follows: D2 fed via HDMI with ARC (anthem-music, this is Bob's choice #1 ); D2 fed via Analog with ARC (anthem-music, this is choice #3 in Bob's post and includes re-digitation); D2 fed analog-direct with no ARC (a 2 channel set up).

The best sound came from the Analog-Direct, 2-channel with no processing. The second best was the re-digitized analog set up (Bob's choice #3 ). Last came the mode using HDMI in which the music felt shallow compared to the deeper sound of the other two analog-fed modes.

So my conclusion is that it is best to listen to the DSD analog outputs of the Oppo when listening to SACDs even if I plan to use ARC (which requires re-digitizing).
A suggestion: For the best comparison of the processed, Stereo Analog (and HDMI) choices here you should set the Audio Surround mode in the D2 to STEREO, not to Anthem Logic - Music. That will produce sound on the Left Front / Right Front and Subwoofer only. Press Mode and use the Arrow keys to cycle through the choices -- or set Stereo as the default choice for 2 channel input in Setup > Mode Presets for that Source line.

I.e., engage ARC processing but do NOT also engage Anthem Logic - Music surround sound processing (which converts Stereo input to more speakers output).

For the processed Analog case (Stereo Analog input re-digitized so as to allow ARC processing), also be sure to check your setting for how the D2 does that re-digitizing. See Section 3.9 of the Manual. By default, the D2 re-digitizes Stereo Analog input at 44.1KHz. Raise that to 96KHz. This is particularly important when the Source material is recorded at a higher sample rate to begin with -- as with SACD. (The Multi-channel Analog input already re-digitizes at 96KHz by default.)
--Bob

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post #43472 of 43496 Old 12-15-2014, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicoff View Post
I finally had a chance to run the tests suggested by Bob.

I set up the Oppo to output DSD audio on SACD sources. Then I listened to an SACD as follows: D2 fed via HDMI with ARC (anthem-music, this is Bob's choice #1 ); D2 fed via Analog with ARC (anthem-music, this is choice #3 in Bob's post and includes re-digitation); D2 fed analog-direct with no ARC (a 2 channel set up).

The best sound came from the Analog-Direct, 2-channel with no processing. The second best was the re-digitized analog set up (Bob's choice #3 ). Last came the mode using HDMI in which the music felt shallow compared to the deeper sound of the other two analog-fed modes.

So my conclusion is that it is best to listen to the DSD analog outputs of the Oppo when listening to SACDs even if I plan to use ARC (which requires re-digitizing).
Thank you for reporting your testing. I have been espousing this for a long time and now another forum member has confirmed what I hear. Though this does not hold true for videos played on a home theater.In that case HDMI to the Anthem with multichannel DTS HD Master or Dolby True HD lossless formats using ARC are the best formats.
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post #43473 of 43496 Old 12-15-2014, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
A suggestion: For the best comparison of the processed, Stereo Analog (and HDMI) choices here you should set the Audio Surround mode in the D2 to STEREO, not to Anthem Logic - Music. That will produce sound on the Left Front / Right Front and Subwoofer only. Press Mode and use the Arrow keys to cycle through the choices -- or set Stereo as the default choice for 2 channel input in Setup > Mode Presets for that Source line.

I.e., engage ARC processing but do NOT also engage Anthem Logic - Music surround sound processing (which converts Stereo input to more speakers output).

For the processed Analog case (Stereo Analog input re-digitized so as to allow ARC processing), also be sure to check your setting for how the D2 does that re-digitizing. See Section 3.9 of the Manual. By default, the D2 re-digitizes Stereo Analog input at 44.1KHz. Raise that to 96KHz. This is particularly important when the Source material is recorded at a higher sample rate to begin with -- as with SACD. (The Multi-channel Analog input already re-digitizes at 96KHz by default.)
--Bob
Thanks Bob! Following up on your suggestions, I have confirmed that the D2 was already set to process all 2.0 signals at 96 kHz.

I listened to an SACD (DSD) orchestral recording using the following four settings:

A) PCM Stereo (HDMI input, Stereo 2.1 channels output)

B) 2-channel Analog Direct (Analog-Direct input, Stereo 2.0 channels output, no ARC)

C) 2.1 channel from Analog source (AnlDSP input, Stereo 2.1 channels output, ARC Processing of analog 2-channel signal coming from Oppo 105D), and, just to relate to my previous listening test,

D) 4.1 channel derived from analog source (AnlDSP input, 4.1 channels output, AnthemLogic-Music mode, ARC Processing of analog 2-channel signal coming from Oppo 105D).

Here is how I ranked them:

1st. 2-Channel Analog Direct, no processing. The sound was much more engaging and musical than any of the other settings.

2nd 4.1 Channel Analog (AnthemLogic-Music, AnlDSP coming from Oppo 105D’s 2-channel analog). This setting was closer to the 2-channel set up than any of the others.

3rd 2.1 channel Analog (Stereo 2.1 channels, AnlDSP, coming from Oppo 105D’s 2-channel analog).

4th PCM Stereo (Stereo 2.1 channels, HDMI input). This setting lacked bass, not a deep or wide soundstage, in fact, the music was not very engaging.

My conclusions from this test are the following:
· The analog output from DSD sources provides better sound than digital PCM even though the analog DSD requires reconverting to digital (i.e., double processing).
· The quality of the DACs in the Oppo is superior to those in the D2. That should be expected though, because the DACs in the D2 are already aging technology, meanwhile, the Oppo uses some of the best DAC technology of today.
· ARC is doing its job, but it cannot make up for the aging DAC technology inside the D2. The 4.1 AnthemLogic-Music mode sounded better and fuller than the 2.1 Stereo when using the same analog source. With 2 extra speakers to work with, ARC is able to do a better job.

I love my D2, but it is obvious that it has not kept up with the times. The D2V is also an old by A/V processor by the standards of the times. I am still hoping that Anthem has a strong replacement of their flagship unit coming VERY soon (hint: a good showing at CES this January for example). Hope is the last thing that dies…
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post #43474 of 43496 Old 12-16-2014, 12:28 AM
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Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide

I don't think the DACs are entirely to blame. The D2v and 50v have better digital input clocking circuits, and they sound quite a bit better. I believe final DAC stage is the same as their earlier versions (50v lacks up-sampling).

With your 2nd favourite choice, the DACs are in use but not the digital input.

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post #43475 of 43496 Old 12-16-2014, 06:22 PM
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Is there a pre-pro out there that would be an excellent or even superior alternative to the D2v in sound and video?

How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #43476 of 43496 Old 12-16-2014, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post
Is there a pre-pro out there that would be an excellent or even superior alternative to the D2v in sound and video?
Almost a dead area for manufacturers I believe.
The closet thing out there would be an OPPO 105D except it does not have multi port HDMI switching or 4K.
There are some really high end pre pros but they lack also 4k and 3D such as Datasat and McIntosh
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post #43477 of 43496 Old 12-16-2014, 08:46 PM
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^ "Two" is still, technically, "multi".

The main disadvantage of the OPPO 105D as a pre-pro is that neither of those two HDMI inputs can accept 3D (or 4K), or Bitstreams for Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA, or DSD. Of course you can play shiny discs or play media files on an attached drive -- or over your house network.

So you have to deprecate HDMI input as the fundamental -- must do "everything" -- input.

Wait, maybe that's a GOOD THING!
--Bob

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post #43478 of 43496 Old 12-16-2014, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post
Is there a pre-pro out there that would be an excellent or even superior alternative to the D2v in sound and video?

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/proce...or-review.html

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post #43479 of 43496 Old 12-17-2014, 07:49 AM
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digital or analog tone control

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Originally Posted by p.las View Post
When using the tonecontrol on the Remote . Is there a a/d converting in the chain then?
My unit is a avm50v
anybody?

its the kontrol on the remote or/and the front panel digital or analog ?

Peter
Denmark
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post #43480 of 43496 Old 12-17-2014, 08:37 AM
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^ All audio processing other than Volume is done in the digital domain. So yes, no Tone control if you are using Analog-Direct to avoid re-digitizing an Analog input.
--Bob

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post #43481 of 43496 Old 12-17-2014, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AVfile View Post
Truly excellent sound but no room EQ and the reasons used to justify its absence are really hokey. The truth is they do not know how to do it...

How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #43482 of 43496 Old 12-18-2014, 07:28 AM
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Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide

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Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post
Truly excellent sound but no room EQ and the reasons used to justify its absence are really hokey. The truth is they do not know how to do it...

Right, I'm not about to jump ship, but it could be an option for some with well behaved rooms. As you can see from the review (Secrets Best of 2014) and reader comments there are different schools of thought on the merits of RC / room EQ.

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post #43483 of 43496 Old 12-18-2014, 06:50 PM
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Excellent Anthem D2v 3D review at secrets http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/proce...or-review.html


It was bench tested like crazy and here is part of the technical summary...




1. Anthem Direct is the cleanest lowest possible distortion path, especially using XLR inputs and outputs with distortions much less than 0.001% .


2. HDMI inputs to XLR outputs had distortions of 0.002% or so regardless of sampling rate (44.1kHz to 192kHz)


3. The audio platform is 10 years old(same as Anthem D1 that came out in 2004) yet still kicking and producing excellent sound and technical specs.


4. Frequency response in Analog Direct is about 90kHz. With Analog-DSP, with ARC engaged, the frequency response is 48kHz and it crazy drops like a stone after that value.


5. Frequency response in HDMI (ARC or no ARC) was not measured, unfortunately.


Review summary... "The sound is reference quality with excellent detail and a wonderfully silent noise floor."






David.

How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630

Last edited by dmusoke; 12-18-2014 at 08:48 PM.
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post #43484 of 43496 Old 12-19-2014, 12:28 PM
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Any word on when Anthem will be able to address the desire for Atmos capability?

You have to hand it to Venus de Milo..., otherwise she would starve.

Computers have abundant memory, but no imagination.
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post #43485 of 43496 Old 12-19-2014, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiGuy1 View Post
Any word on when Anthem will be able to address the desire for Atmos capability?
I am playing an Atoms Movie on my D2 - The Movie is
Expendables 3 - my Sony S790 is converting the Atoms
to LPCM for my D2.

It is the BEST SOUND I HAVE EVER HEARD for a Movie.
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post #43486 of 43496 Old 12-19-2014, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicoff View Post
Thanks Bob! Following up on your suggestions, I have confirmed that the D2 was already set to process all 2.0 signals at 96 kHz.

I listened to an SACD (DSD) orchestral recording using the following four settings:

A) PCM Stereo (HDMI input, Stereo 2.1 channels output)

B) 2-channel Analog Direct (Analog-Direct input, Stereo 2.0 channels output, no ARC)

C) 2.1 channel from Analog source (AnlDSP input, Stereo 2.1 channels output, ARC Processing of analog 2-channel signal coming from Oppo 105D), and, just to relate to my previous listening test,

D) 4.1 channel derived from analog source (AnlDSP input, 4.1 channels output, AnthemLogic-Music mode, ARC Processing of analog 2-channel signal coming from Oppo 105D).

Here is how I ranked them:

1st. 2-Channel Analog Direct, no processing. The sound was much more engaging and musical than any of the other settings.

2nd 4.1 Channel Analog (AnthemLogic-Music, AnlDSP coming from Oppo 105D’s 2-channel analog). This setting was closer to the 2-channel set up than any of the others.

3rd 2.1 channel Analog (Stereo 2.1 channels, AnlDSP, coming from Oppo 105D’s 2-channel analog).

4th PCM Stereo (Stereo 2.1 channels, HDMI input). This setting lacked bass, not a deep or wide soundstage, in fact, the music was not very engaging.

My conclusions from this test are the following:
· The analog output from DSD sources provides better sound than digital PCM even though the analog DSD requires reconverting to digital (i.e., double processing).
· The quality of the DACs in the Oppo is superior to those in the D2. That should be expected though, because the DACs in the D2 are already aging technology, meanwhile, the Oppo uses some of the best DAC technology of today.
· ARC is doing its job, but it cannot make up for the aging DAC technology inside the D2. The 4.1 AnthemLogic-Music mode sounded better and fuller than the 2.1 Stereo when using the same analog source. With 2 extra speakers to work with, ARC is able to do a better job.

I love my D2, but it is obvious that it has not kept up with the times. The D2V is also an old by A/V processor by the standards of the times. I am still hoping that Anthem has a strong replacement of their flagship unit coming VERY soon (hint: a good showing at CES this January for example). Hope is the last thing that dies…
For many years with my D2, I used your #3 (2-ch analog with ARC) with paradigm Ref sub and my system sounded really good. In the past 8 months when I got my S8V3, I decided to compare #1 (analog direct, no sub, no ARC) with #3 , and never went back to #3 . My CD player is a Marantz SA11S2. Like you said, sound was much more musical and engaging. Now, I only use ARC for movies which seamlessly integrates my Ref sub to my speakers.
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post #43487 of 43496 Old 12-19-2014, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiGuy1 View Post
Any word on when Anthem will be able to address the desire for Atmos capability?

You'll have to wait for a new processor...D3v and above.

How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #43488 of 43496 Old Today, 05:26 AM
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Hi,

I am setting up a 5 speaker system with no subwoofer. I'm not sure what is the best way to set
the response cutoff for the front speakers. Would this setting mean that every information below 60hz is lost?



Thank you!
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post #43489 of 43496 Old Today, 08:02 AM
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Hi,

I am setting up a 5 speaker system with no subwoofer. I'm not sure what is the best way to set
the response cutoff for the front speakers. Would this setting mean that every information below 60hz is lost?



Thank you!
Are the Targets you displayed the actual ARC run or just the setup before ?
Cutoffs of 60hz might be appropriate for small bookshelf speakers

Read carefully the explanation in the center of the Target window that starts
"Response cutoffs are not crossover frequencies ......."
No cutoff or crossover suddenly cuts off the audio sharply it is a declining slope across a frequency range

Run the entire ARC setup or if you have already finished an ARC run post your curves and the Target window so forum members can make recommendations

After an ARC run You can go into the Anthem Basic setup. Under the Speaker Configuration, Bass management Movie/Music screens and see the exact crossover points ARC has set for your speakers not the ARC cutoffs.
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Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildZero View Post
Hi,

I am setting up a 5 speaker system with no subwoofer. I'm not sure what is the best way to set
the response cutoff for the front speakers. Would this setting mean that every information below 60hz is lost?

No, the X-over is set to "full range" because you have no sub. So the speaker will do its best to reproduce everything it can below 60Hz.

What the cutoff means is ARC should not perform any bass correction below this point.

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Last edited by AVfile; Today at 08:11 AM.
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post #43491 of 43496 Old Today, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post
No, the X-over is set to "full range" because you have no sub. So the speaker will do its best to reproduce everything it can below 60Hz.

What the cutoff means is ARC should not perform any bass correction below this point.
^

You need to look at the crossovers set in Setup by ARC and post your charts to see exactly what ARC is doing.
As AVFILE stated " cutoff means is ARC should not perform any bass correction below this point " but that does not mean ARC has not set the crossovers or other equalization. They only display the "cutoffs" in the Target window and to give you an idea of where they stopping additional modification to prevent stress to your speakers.
You need to see the crossover settings in the bass manager to see exactly what ARC has done
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post #43492 of 43496 Old Today, 10:30 AM
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When you set the Subwoofer to OFF, ARC (and the Anthem hardware) forces Left Font and Right Front to Full Range. The numeric value is ignored. It is not grayed out because you can still put special choices in there such as F for Flat (a dangerous choice for most people) which will eliminate the safety roll off at the very lowest bass frequencies.

Bass crossover processing still happens for the other speakers, with the steered bass going to LF/RF.
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Thank you for you help everybody! The new room is small and just terrible, but for now I'm stuck here

So ARC will use full range for the fronts, but what does the response cutoff for the fronts influence?
Nothing (except for the flat setting) or the the range that ARC tries to correct?
If it is the range then wouldn't it be best to set a lower value of for example 30?

As suggested I checked in the D2v setup menu and crossover for the fronts was set to "off",
center to "60" and rears to "65".

Sorry for my English, I hope you understand what I am trying to ask



Calculation 60


Calculation 30


Thanks again
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post #43494 of 43496 Old Today, 04:49 PM
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I don't know that those Calculated curves are "real" given that you've also got Full Range forced (due to no Sub), but beginning the roll off at 60Hz certainly makes sense. Your Fronts fall off a cliff below 30Hz. And since the roll off takes about an octave (factor of 2 in frequency) to fully engage, that means the roll off should start at twice 30 - 60Hz.

When you changed it to 30, you can see that even with ARC applying boost your Fronts can't handle the octave below 30 (i.e., to 15Hz).

It looks like ARC is applying the protective roll off starting at the higher frequency to protect your Fronts from bass (below 30 Hz) they simply can't handle.
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post #43495 of 43496 Old Today, 05:20 PM
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There also is a suck out at 150hz that ARC cannot fully correct in the left front speaker.
Maybe there is a doorway or wall offset or an object on the left side. You should try to eliminate the suckout. You can use Quick Measure to real time test each incremental change you make to eliminate it.
Also it may be dangerous for your speaker drivers to force them lower by changing the cutoff to 30. Look up your speaker manufacturers frequency response and then set it accordingly so you do not overdrive the low frequency drivers into breakup and distortion. The chart at 30 shows the driver breaking up at 50hz already

Your English is fine by the way
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post #43496 of 43496 Old Today, 05:43 PM
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Thanks Bob & thestewman

Speaker are listed as:
Low frequency point: (-6dB) 25Hz
Frequency response: (+/- 3dB) 30Hz - 40kHz on reference axis
But I do not trust those "under perfect conditions" specifications too much

Maybe I will experiment with going down a bit more but it seems that 60 makes sense.

I also noted the nasty dip at 150, the speaker is located somewhat in a corner and a window is close by,
not possible to move it a lot but I will try by moving it around a little + Quick Measure

Thank you guys!
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