Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide - Page 462 - AVS Forum
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post #13831 of 43103 Old 05-25-2008, 12:42 AM
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HI to All,

Well some of you may remember me with the problems of the D2 shutting down because I was using a step down transformer. I tried everything from filtering to conditioners but never solved what was causing the unit to behave bizarrely.

I sold it to an American and it worked perfectly right away ??? Something in the electricity that the D2 was sensitive to.... We may never know.

I have to say that this is one of the best support forums I have ever been on and I belong to a few. You get answers and help right away and everyone is very friendly and no ego.

Its too bad the D2 was so sensitive and overall I found it to be unreliable with both audio and video signals. Many of you "accept" the fact that hdmi doesn't work with satellites or there is jitter with a satellite audio signal. For me the "idea" of the D2 is great, but in use it is on very shaky ground.

I have since separated audio and video with the VP50pro and the Meridian 861V4 (with room correction) and there a now no issues. Everything works.

Reading thru the forum many use component when hdmi fails and will switch other cables around what ever problem persists and it is regrettable that you have to do that.

I thank you all for your help, a nicer bunch of people can't be found on any forum and hope that Anthem will fix all the minor glitches as I think it has to do with the fact that they are on the cutting edge of technology and at the cutting edge you have to live with some glitches.
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post #13832 of 43103 Old 05-25-2008, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Aside from Position 1, why would ARC care about the order. If the positions are too close, the calculations may be affected but ARC won't report an error since it does not know where the mic is.

It's a question of fuzzy logic. If you do not require a large sweet spot, better to concentrate and optimise correction within a smaller area. Try it. Shows up on the graph.
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post #13833 of 43103 Old 05-25-2008, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by misterdoggy View Post

HI to All,

Well some of you may remember me with the problems of the D2 shutting down because I was using a step down transformer. I tried everything from filtering to conditioners but never solved what was causing the unit to behave bizarrely.

I sold it to an American and it worked perfectly right away ??? Something in the electricity that the D2 was sensitive to.... We may never know.

I have to say that this is one of the best support forums I have ever been on and I belong to a few. You get answers and help right away and everyone is very friendly and no ego.

Its too bad the D2 was so sensitive and overall I found it to be unreliable with both audio and video signals. Many of you "accept" the fact that hdmi doesn't work with satellites or there is jitter with a satellite audio signal. For me the "idea" of the D2 is great, but in use it is on very shaky ground.

I have since separated audio and video with the VP50pro and the Meridian 861V4 (with room correction) and there a now no issues. Everything works.

Reading thru the forum many use component when hdmi fails and will switch other cables around what ever problem persists and it is regrettable that you have to do that.

I thank you all for your help, a nicer bunch of people can't be found on any forum and hope that Anthem will fix all the minor glitches as I think it has to do with the fact that they are on the cutting edge of technology and at the cutting edge you have to live with some glitches.

Hi!,
I live in the states and do have satellite being viewed thru the D2 and it does not have any problems.I suspect it may have to do with the power conditioner.Anyway it is obviosly to late for you to try but all the same we all share the same goal of having the best home theater experience possible.All the best to you.
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post #13834 of 43103 Old 05-25-2008, 08:07 AM
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I"ve owned my avm 20 for 6 years now and have loved it. I now have a chance to sell it, and purchase a 50 or a D2. Over the years I have learned the avm20 pretty well. and has been a good performer. So my question is which one, 2nd is I"m a little worried about set up. I"m a home theater nut I"ve spent enough to pay for my home, but I love it and I have to say my wife has given total support on my hobbie. I"m not into boats,cars ect.(work for Lexus so I drive different cars all the time) just this. My set up was done by me and consists of 60XBR2, BPS1 or PS3, XA2 ,MCA5 MCA20 XLR connections, montier 11,cc350 pw2200,adp350,ams250, buttkickers all set up by me. So when it comes to letting the 20 go, and trying to make a go at the 50 or D2 its one with apprehension so I value this website to help thru setup of this. You guys know these units well so any feedback is helpful for my decision. Also will there be sound quality difference from 20 to 50.
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post #13835 of 43103 Old 05-25-2008, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T100 View Post

I"ve owned my avm 20 for 6 years now and have loved it. I now have a chance to sell it, and purchase a 50 or a D2. Over the years I have learned the avm20 pretty well. and has been a good performer. So my question is which one, 2nd is I"m a little worried about set up. I"m a home theater nut I"ve spent enough to pay for my home, but I love it and I have to say my wife has given total support on my hobbie. I"m not into boats,cars ect.(work for Lexus so I drive different cars all the time) just this. My set up was done by me and consists of 60XBR2, BPS1 or PS3, XA2 ,MCA5 MCA20 XLR connections, montier 11,cc350 pw2200,adp350,ams250, buttkickers all set up by me. So when it comes to letting the 20 go, and trying to make a go at the 50 or D2 its one with apprehension so I value this website to help thru setup of this. You guys know these units well so any feedback is helpful for my decision. Also will there be sound quality difference from 20 to 50.

Hi,
For what it is worth, I owned an AVM2 went to the AVM20 and then to the D2. What would really tip the scales for me between the 50 and the D2 is the addition of ARC on the D2 - worth every penny!
I would say without hesitation, although I loved the previous 2 models the D2 is the single best audio/home theatre piece of equipment I have ever bought. IT is what makes my system look and sound superior to virtually anything I see out there.
Can't wait for the next model!!!

/\\/\\
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post #13836 of 43103 Old 05-25-2008, 10:12 AM
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finally getting around to hooking up the room correction, software loaded, serial cable hooked to the back of the laptop and the other end D2 serial connector when I go to start the measurement I get this message" no calibration files found in appliaction directory that match (code= 0x02) also getting message that says " measurement procedure failed failure to find calibration files for unit serial #) if this has been discussed before my apologies, anyone have any ideas here? at some point it does say that it finds the d2 with serial number so im not sure whats up here?


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post #13837 of 43103 Old 05-25-2008, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T100 View Post

I"ve owned my avm 20 for 6 years now and have loved it. I now have a chance to sell it, and purchase a 50 or a D2. Over the years I have learned the avm20 pretty well. and has been a good performer. So my question is which one, 2nd is I"m a little worried about set up. I"m a home theater nut I"ve spent enough to pay for my home, but I love it and I have to say my wife has given total support on my hobbie. I"m not into boats,cars ect.(work for Lexus so I drive different cars all the time) just this. My set up was done by me and consists of 60XBR2, BPS1 or PS3, XA2 ,MCA5 MCA20 XLR connections, montier 11,cc350 pw2200,adp350,ams250, buttkickers all set up by me. So when it comes to letting the 20 go, and trying to make a go at the 50 or D2 its one with apprehension so I value this website to help thru setup of this. You guys know these units well so any feedback is helpful for my decision. Also will there be sound quality difference from 20 to 50.

I had an AVM50 for a year and recently upgraded to the D2 and love it! The ARC works well to my ears. I think it was worth the extra money for the D2.

I love this stuff!
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post #13838 of 43103 Old 05-25-2008, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funlvr1965 View Post

finally getting around to hooking up the room correction, software loaded, serial cable hooked to the back of the laptop and the other end D2 serial connector when I go to start the measurement I get this message" no calibration files found in appliaction directory that match (code= 0x02) also getting message that says " measurement procedure failed failure to find calibration files for unit serial #) if this has been discussed before my apologies, anyone have any ideas here? at some point it does say that it finds the d2 with serial number so im not sure whats up here?

Did you load the ARC software from the website? If you did, you need the calibration files on the CD and place them in the ARC folder.

I love this stuff!
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post #13839 of 43103 Old 05-25-2008, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bool View Post

Did you load the ARC software from the website? If you did, you need the calibration files on the CD and place them in the ARC folder.

nope, did everything by the book, loaded from the cd not the website, I looked at the calibration files that were created in the room correction folder and if they are supposed to have my serial number included in the naming of the file, then they are indeed wrong, how can this be and how can it be fixed? that would explain why im getting errors saying that there is a serial number mismatch


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post #13840 of 43103 Old 05-25-2008, 01:17 PM
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If you created a program shortcut to your screen, that may be the problem...it happened to me. Also, check that the property info for the program icon is directed to start in the directory that the unit id file is in.

John
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post #13841 of 43103 Old 05-25-2008, 01:37 PM
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I let the install disk create the shortcut so Im sure it wasnt anything I did, I followed the install procedure but yet again seems im screwed, making matters worse even though the calibration never took place, all my settings were lost, even though I saved them to both user and installer settings they didnt get saved, good thing I went through each screen and took pictures just in case something like this would happen


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post #13842 of 43103 Old 05-25-2008, 02:14 PM
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Your best bet is to completely remove ARC from your computer and do a fresh reload. I suggest you remove any directories or files left after the uninstall and, if you feel comfortable, any undeleted registry entries. Then do a complete reload. The two files ARC needs to verify the serial number XXXXX_YYYYYY.cal and XXXXX_YYYYYYanthem.file. (X) is your serial number and Y is a six digit number that may be the mic S/N. If they are not there, check for them on the install CD.

John
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post #13843 of 43103 Old 05-25-2008, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funlvr1965 View Post

nope, did everything by the book, loaded from the cd not the website, I looked at the calibration files that were created in the room correction folder and if they are supposed to have my serial number included in the naming of the file, then they are indeed wrong, how can this be and how can it be fixed? that would explain why im getting errors saying that there is a serial number mismatch

The calibration files must have names that match the serial number of your D2. The serial # is also encoded into the file so you can't just change the file names and have it work.

If the ARC install disc provided to you has the wrong files then something was screwed up in the ordering or order fulfillment process, and only Anthem technical support can help you. The plastic protective package for the ARC install disc should also have a label on it showing your D2's serial #. If the label on that plastic case is correct and the files are wrong, then Anthem put the wrong CD into your delivery -- and probably some other D2 owner got your disc.

If the label on the plastic case matches the file names that are installed, and they are all incorrect, then either the wrong serial # was sent in with your order or Anthem sent you the wrong disc for your order.

Again, this is not something you can fix yourself. You need to get the matching calibration files for your D2's serial # *AND* for the particular microphone that Anthem sent you. Only Anthem can fix this for you.
--Bob


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post #13844 of 43103 Old 05-25-2008, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by T100 View Post

I"ve owned my avm 20 for 6 years now and have loved it. I now have a chance to sell it, and purchase a 50 or a D2. Over the years I have learned the avm20 pretty well. and has been a good performer. So my question is which one, 2nd is I"m a little worried about set up. I"m a home theater nut I"ve spent enough to pay for my home, but I love it and I have to say my wife has given total support on my hobbie. I"m not into boats,cars ect.(work for Lexus so I drive different cars all the time) just this. My set up was done by me and consists of 60XBR2, BPS1 or PS3, XA2 ,MCA5 MCA20 XLR connections, montier 11,cc350 pw2200,adp350,ams250, buttkickers all set up by me. So when it comes to letting the 20 go, and trying to make a go at the 50 or D2 its one with apprehension so I value this website to help thru setup of this. You guys know these units well so any feedback is helpful for my decision. Also will there be sound quality difference from 20 to 50.

The audio portion of the AVM-50 is an AVM-30. And yes there is a sound difference between the 20 and the 30 (or 50).

The audio portion of the Statement D2 is a Statement D1. And there is an even bigger sound difference comparing that to the 20.

If you can afford it, the D2 (which is now shipped bundled with ARC), is, in my opinion, well worth the extra money over the AVM-50.

The video portion of the AVM-50 and D2 are identical.

The D2 also has a better power supply and a scant handful of additional features over the AVM-50 (such as internal audio upsampling to 192KHz).
--Bob


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post #13845 of 43103 Old 05-25-2008, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by benleeys View Post

Peter,
Am using a Denon 5910 to feed CD into the D2. Best I've owned so far, including a Krell. Have tried both analog and digital connections and found it difficult to pin down any major difference. On the whole though, I prefer the digital connection and have the D2 do the decoding.

The Ayre is a superb unit and there shouldn't be any reason why it cannot mate well with the D2. You're welcomed to try it on my D2 and see if the problem is still there.

Ben

Thanks for the offer Ben, I'll PM you to make arrangements. Just to clarify, in Analog Direct the Ayre mates perfectly with the D2, the sound is phenominal. It's only when I switch over to digitial (either Analog DSP or directly via Digital AES/EBU cable) that I hear a *less pleasing* result.

At any rate, as Bob suggested maybe there's an issue with the DAC's in my unit. It would be great to hook-up my Ayre to your D2 for a comparison, especially since we essentially have the same speakers, with the added advantage at your end
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post #13846 of 43103 Old 05-26-2008, 12:04 AM
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Thanks for the offer Ben, I'll PM you to make arrangements. Just to clarify, in Analog Direct the Ayre mates perfectly with the D2, the sound is phenominal. It's only when I switch over to digitial (either Analog DSP or directly via Digital AES/EBU cable) that I hear a *less pleasing* result.

At any rate, as Bob suggested maybe there's an issue with the DAC's in my unit. It would be great to hook-up my Ayre to your D2 for a comparison, especially since we essentially have the same speakers, with the added advantage at your end

Peter,
Your analog direct connection should sound great since the D2 is just acting as a passthru with volume control added along the way. Looks more and more like a DAC problem then, but bring your Ayre over and we'll see whether you need to bother Kevin.
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post #13847 of 43103 Old 05-26-2008, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uppacreek View Post

Thanks for the offer Ben, I'll PM you to make arrangements. Just to clarify, in Analog Direct the Ayre mates perfectly with the D2, the sound is phenominal. It's only when I switch over to digitial (either Analog DSP or directly via Digital AES/EBU cable) that I hear a *less pleasing* result.

At any rate, as Bob suggested maybe there's an issue with the DAC's in my unit. It would be great to hook-up my Ayre to your D2 for a comparison, especially since we essentially have the same speakers, with the added advantage at your end

Please post your results on the thread. I've ordered a Bryston bcd-1, and although its not in the same class as the Ayre I do plan to hook it up via the balanced 2 channel input. I will be interested if the sound on your freind's D2 is the same or not.
I'm sure you probably thought of this, but the D2 defaults to 'anthem logic music' in the analog dsp inputs. You need to set it to 'stereo' in the 'mode presets' for the '2 ch' input.
If it were in 'anthem logic music' it would definitely have a different sound since it would be matrixed to the surround speakers. I only mention this because its something I might overlook. The D2 in analog dsp/stereo mode should just send low frequencies to the sub at whatever crossover point you or your ARC has set.
BTW did you try both balaced and unbalaced connections from your Ayre to the D2? Did you have the same results?
I look forward to your results.
Tom

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post #13848 of 43103 Old 05-26-2008, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by tngiloy View Post

Please post your results on the thread. I've ordered a Bryston bcd-1, and although its not in the same class as the Ayre I do plan to hook it up via the balanced 2 channel input. I will be interested if the sound on your freind's D2 is the same or not.
I'm sure you probably thought of this, but the D2 defaults to 'anthem logic music' in the analog dsp inputs. You need to set it to 'stereo' in the 'mode presets' for the '2 ch' input.
If it were in 'anthem logic music' it would definitely have a different sound since it would be matrixed to the surround speakers. I only mention this because its something I might overlook. The D2 in analog dsp/stereo mode should just send low frequencies to the sub at whatever crossover point you or your ARC has set.
BTW did you try both balaced and unbalaced connections from your Ayre to the D2? Did you have the same results?
I look forward to your results.
Tom

Tom, for sure I'm just as interested as you to find out so I will post results when I have them (thanks to Ben).

Yes, I've cycled through the various setup options for 2-channel in Analog DSP. I set the D2 to Stereo and turn off/on Room EQ. The D2 is converting my Ayre's balanced analog input signal to digital, upsampling and adding processing for Room EQ (or not if it's off), then converting back to analog, the sound either way is simply is not as full as with analog direct. The low frequencies take on a slightly different image due to the mains high pass crossover now directing low frequencies to my sub (compared to analog direct with no sub in my case), but the biggest difference is in the midrange and upper frequencies.

A great CD to compare is The Best of Dire Straits - Private Investigations 2nd Edition. When I play track 2 Sultans of Swing, in analog direct the clarity and accuracy of Knopfler's guitar is astonishing, but when I switch to Analog DSP his guitar becomes slightly truncated and disjointed, like it's clipping. Believe me, it still sounds *ok*, but it's simply not as high quality a signal as with analog direct and the difference is very clear to my ears.

When I completely change over to digital AES/EBU into the D2, I get very similar results as with Analog DSP....but now it's pure digital in...this is why I'm thinking something could be haywire with my D2's DAC's.

Now I haven't tried straight RCA from the Ayre into the D2 because I don't have any quality unbalanced cables, but this at best will be Analog DSP. Perhaps I can try this with Ben, but I don't think it will make much of a difference.

Sure, once I get more information on this, I'll post again.

Peter
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post #13849 of 43103 Old 05-26-2008, 08:57 AM
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Peter,
Try analog into the 6-ch input (just use the LF and RF connectors of the 6-ch input set). Use whatever RCA connectors you have for this test. If that sounds better then the problem may be on the digitizing side. By default the 6-ch input digitizes at 96KHz and the 2 channel input at 44KHz.

If that appears promising, then try raising the sampling rate for digitizing the 2 channel input in Setup / ADC & Audio Output.

----------------------------------------

Using the AES digital input (to eliminate the digitizing issue), try playing calibration sweep tones and see if you can hear any frequencies where the D2's DACs appear to be glitching. Leave ARC turned off for this and use Stereo audio mode to minimize processing. Given what you are hearing, concentrate on the mid-range frequencies.

Obviously this would be better done with an oscilloscope and a signal generator, but if the DACs have a serious problem you might be able to hear it by ear.

--------------------------------------------

Make sure that you have Auto-Dig turned off in Setup / Source Setup for this input so that you aren't accidentally picking up a digital audio input instead of the analog audio input you think you are testing.

--------------------------------------------

Setup a Music speaker configuration with NO SUBWOOFER and with "Large" LF and RF speakers. Select the Music speaker configuration for this input. Use either digital or analog stereo input and play music using the Stereo audio mode. The idea is to eliminate cross over processing to see if that might be where the fault lies (as opposed to digitizing the input or the conversion to analog for output).

---------------------------------------------

Double check your Setup / Listener Position settings. If the speaker distances are incorrect you may be hearing the effects of cancellation between speakers when using Anlg-DSP or digital inputs (i.e., portions of the audio that are going out equally to both speakers may be getting time shifted for one speaker so that cancellation occurs). This would also screw up "imaging" of the sound stage as it would bias the sound to one side or the other. For the very critical listening you are doing now, you might hear this effect whereas you might not hear it for less critical listening such as with movies.
--Bob


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post #13850 of 43103 Old 05-26-2008, 09:22 AM
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I've been trying to figure out what Comcast is doing to my HDTV channels that produces the image degradation I am seeing in critical viewing. It's annoying me because my SD-DVD imaging is pretty darned close to PERFECT with the V1.31c software and my current calibration setup.

I *THINK* what is going on is that Comcast has expanded the digital luminance range from the correct 16-235 range to 0-255 (which necessarily discards Blacker than Black and Peak White data since there is no place to put values less than 0 or higher than 255) and then reduced it back to 16-235.

The result is that Blacker than Black and Peak White data is clipped (or possibly crushed -- e.g., BTB rounded UP to "black" instead of merely being discarded) *AND* banding is introduced due to the rounding errors during these two range changes. In addition, I suspect there has been a YCbCr to RGB and back to YCbCr conversion involved and that the wrong color math was used for Studio vs. Extended RGB as part of that (which is distinct from the HDTV vs SDTV color space math issue). This would show up as color decoder style errors.

This is the simplest "mistake" I can think of that would explain what I am seeing.

The alternative is that it is not a "mistake". That instead they are deliberately recompressing these channels to reduce the bandwidth they take up on the cable (bit starving and resolution reduction -- the infamous "HD-lite") and are just doing it in a particularly heavy handed fashion. The reason I favor the "mistake" is that I'm not seeing the posterization that would normally accompany bit starving.

What's really weird is that my SDTV channels have never looked better! There is still the usual range of bad SDTV content to good (and the bad will ALWAYS look bad), but the channels delivering good quality imaging look better than before. It's always tough to make such comparisons because cable and satellite companies can change their transmission configuration on the fly -- hour by hour in some cases.

------------------------------

I think I may also try swapping out my Comcast box just to make sure it is not a hardware failure in the box itself. But I think that's unlikely because typical hardware failures should look a lot worse.
--Bob


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post #13851 of 43103 Old 05-26-2008, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by uppacreek View Post

Tom, for sure I'm just as interested as you to find out so I will post results when I have them (thanks to Ben).

Yes, I've cycled through the various setup options for 2-channel in Analog DSP. I set the D2 to Stereo and turn off/on Room EQ. The D2 is converting my Ayre's balanced analog input signal to digital, upsampling and adding processing for Room EQ (or not if it's off), then converting back to analog, the sound either way is simply is not as full as with analog direct. The low frequencies take on a slightly different image due to the mains high pass crossover now directing low frequencies to my sub (compared to analog direct with no sub in my case), but the biggest difference is in the midrange and upper frequencies.

A great CD to compare is The Best of Dire Straits - Private Investigations 2nd Edition. When I play track 2 Sultans of Swing, in analog direct the clarity and accuracy of Knopfler's guitar is astonishing, but when I switch to Analog DSP his guitar becomes slightly truncated and disjointed, like it's clipping. Believe me, it still sounds *ok*, but it's simply not as high quality a signal as with analog direct and the difference is very clear to my ears.

When I completely change over to digital AES/EBU into the D2, I get very similar results as with Analog DSP....but now it's pure digital in...this is why I'm thinking something could be haywire with my D2's DAC's.

Now I haven't tried straight RCA from the Ayre into the D2 because I don't have any quality unbalanced cables, but this at best will be Analog DSP. Perhaps I can try this with Ben, but I don't think it will make much of a difference.

Sure, once I get more information on this, I'll post again.

Peter

It could be that the Ayre's DAC's are superior to the D2's. The Stereophile reviews of the Ayre cdp's, both the 5xe and 7xe, were glowing.They rated them at A orA+ if I remember right. Both reviews commented on the superior sound using the balanced xlr analog connections from the Ayre players.
If you find that the Ayre sounds better to you on analog, then play it on analog.
The only other suggestion I would have is to re-do your ARC in 'advanced' and turn all the speakers off except the fronts, including the sub, in the 'music' side. That would allow you to get the benefits of ARC and get the lowest frequencies, theoretically, that your fronts can handle. I assume that if you bought such a fine cdp that your speakers are equally good.
I'm not sure if you have to re-run ARC completely, with the mic and sweeps, or if you can use the info in ARC and recalibrate for the 2.0 speaker set-up. I bet Bob P. would know. I might try it myself.
Tom

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post #13852 of 43103 Old 05-26-2008, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by uppacreek View Post

I'd like to check with those of you who have connected a high quality CD player to your Anthem and the results you're getting.

My CD player is the Ayre C-5xe connected to the D2 via MIT Shotgun MA balanced interconnets. When connected via analog and set in the D2 as Analog Direct, the music is wonderful....clean, transparent, accurate with an amazing soundstage. The D2 in this instance is only working as a preamp to set gain and speaker levels, but previously my prepro was a Denon 3806 which basically sucked in comparison to the detailed sound produced by the D2.

However, when I set the 2-Channel source in the D2 to Analog DSP so I can use my sub and ARC settings for music, the sound is awful....really lacks depth and clarity, seems like a fair amount of digital *noise* is introduced into the signal. I've noticed this with many discs including SACD, DVD-A and red book CD.

So last night I disconnected the cables from the Ayre analog connections and hooked up the Ayre's balanced digital out into the AES/EBU input on the D2. First I tried to setup a new source as "CD" with Audio-In as Digital AES/EBU, but I couldn't get any sound. This baffled me since I know the D2 can accept multiple input settings for a single source. So then I changed the 2-channel source from Analog Direct Audio-In to Digital AES/EBU. This worked, but the sound was just as bad as using Analog DSP. With Room EQ = On the sound was a bit better, but overall using the DAC's in the D2 was very disappointing.

Using my Oppo 980 as a CD player via HDMI to the D2 just can't compete with the Ayre. The Ayre is still the better source even with the limitations in using it's digital out into the D2.

Shouldn't a high quality digital connection via an excellent transport produce superb sound via the D2 when compared to straight thru analog? I'm beginning to think the DAC's in the D2 are not all that great, unless there's somthing I'm missing in setup, but I've cycled through the setup menus many times looking for a way to improve digital source music.

Peter,

Perhaps I can put in my $.02 based on email exchanges I had with Nick (Anthem) and a client in which the client tried to do an A/B comparison using the 6 channel outputs of his Denon 5900 to his D2.

Rather than paraphrase, I'll just cut and paste the email exchanges and then you can be the judge as to whether or not it makes sense or even applies to your situation.

CLIENT:

"Nick -- good morning.

As an experiment, I set my D2 "6-channel" input to "analog direct" and used normal RCA cables from my DVD player (Denon 5900), which is also my CD player; and set my "CD" input to "analog-dsp" in stereo mode -- also normal RCA cables from same DVD player to Anthem. Wanted to compare analog direct with a digitally processed audio signal.

Switching back and forth between 6-channel analog and CD-analog to digital, the 6 channel analog direct input is very good -- and noticeably superior to the analog-dsp-stereo, especially in regards to imaging, but also in other respects. The digital image lost focus, some but not all of which was restored if a moved a bit to the right. I tried re-adjusting the setup levels of my left/right front speakers, but the need to move to the right really didn't change.

Although I've read great things about the Anthem digital circuitry, I probably shouldn't be surprised by this. I assume that you would also expect the digitally processed signal to be somewhat degraded. Correct?

What doesn't sound normal is a little crackling in the analog-dsp-stereo mode - almost like having a little dust in the grooves of a vinyl LP; and a little increase in background noise in analog-dsp-stereo. I only listened to 1 CD and it was not an "audiophile" CD, but I didn't hear that distortion or noise in analog-direct. Is it possible that whatever distortion is present on the CD is magnified as a result of the digital processing?

Please give me your thoughts.



NICK:


"When the D1 was under development (it has the same audio circuit as the D2) this is what we did to compare direct to DSP:

listening test setup:

- connect 2-channel source to preamp
- disable all processing (all speakers large, all distances same, no PLII, THX etc)
- play appropriate source material (can't judge naturalness with unnatural recording - pop CDs are mostly out)

blind listening result:

- no one could tell direct apart from DSP (all you have to do is toggle it in the setup menu, no need to connect to a different source

measured difference between direct and DSP:

- artifacts began at -120 dB, which is inaudible and the goal. We wanted a transparent digital stage, and in teh end the A to D to A stage was transparent, with direct mode as the baseline.

So why the differences that you heard?

a. If you're comparing the analog output of the player vs the digital output, you are inserting the player's DACs and analog signal path. This not an A/B comparison. In addition, levels have to be matched to within 0.1 dB in a proper test or the louder one usually wins. We can hear a 0.3 dB increase and "more dynamic" is a frequent comment even though nothing but the volume changes. It's hard to find a stepped volume control with steps lower than 0.5 dB.

b. The 6-Ch analog inputs on the Statement series use a differential circuit to allow louder sources (the sub channel usually is) and to lower distortion.

c. If the crackling on anlg-DSP was during musical peaks and it was on a stereo input, it's possible that the analog output voltage of the player was higher than standard. This is a common trick among hi-end players (see a.) with some outputting three times the standard voltage, which is 2V. The ADCs can't take much more than that though lowering analog input levels in the setup menu may help. Direct mode can take about twice the voltage that DSPs can.

d. The output voltage of the two channels may not be identical. The center image (the mono components such as a vocal) in a stereo recording is very unstable unless you have your head in a vise. A slight variation in the arrival times between the two speakers and two ears also sounds like a change in balance. Recordings containing a center channel dispose of this effect.

All said, I wouldn't use the player's analog outputs when its digital output can be used - use it with the D2's DAC stage, a 24/192 upsampler feeding hi-end 128X oversampling DACs running at 24.576 MHz running through a reconstruction filter that couldn't be gentler. And since the upsamplers run their own clocks jitter from the player is a non-issue.

In case crackling is heard while playing a recording of a sax, note that the clicking on the valves opening/closing can sound like a clicking in the electronics. For things like this, rewind the CD to see if the clicking appears in the same spot, but with c. above in mind.

Nick"

CLIENT:

"Nick --- many thanks for this. I didn't think about speaker size/distance/etc settings that would cut in in DSP mode. I know I can set the subwoofer separately for audio and cinema (I don't like to use it for audio). But can I also set speaker size/etc separately by input, or separately for music and movies?

How were you toggling between analog direct and analog DSP? Do I have to leave the D2 in setup mode and flip back and forth? If I'm in analog direct, there doesn't seem to be any way to toggle out of it to any DSP settings without going back into setup.

By the D2's DAC stage, are your referring to the balanced AES 2 channel digital input? I don't have anything that outputs to that input - no digital outputs other than for compressed multichannel.

My DVD player does have both a 6 channel analog out, and a 2 channel analog out that are simultaneously active -- so whatever harm the player's DAC is doing to the CD, it's doing it for both sets of its analog output - so there would be no difference on this -correct?

Thanks again for your thoughtful and helpful response!!"

NICK:

"Hi,

Yes, switch between direct and DSP in the menu. A more convenient method might be to y-split the source into two inputs, one assigned direct and the other DSP.

If your player has a coax or optical output, this is the one you should be using for CD playback, not analog. CD data is 2-channel PCM, not compressed.

You're assuming that all the analog outputs on the player are created equal but there's no guarantee of that from anyone. I have looked inside one top-line DVD-A player and found that only two of its analog channels on its multichannel output had esoteric parts in it, and this practice is not unusual. We don't play tricks like this, however. In the Anthem's case, the only difference from one channel to another is that the 6-channel input on the Statement models is differential (and these six channels are equal with one another except for a THX-required filter on the sub channel).

Nothing I've mentioned has anything to do with the AES/EBU connection. It is nothing more than a variation of coax/optical designed for long cables as encountered in studios.

So in summary:

a. For a level playing field EVERYTHING has to be equal other than the direct vs DSP setting.

b. The result of such a comparison would be moot if you can use a digital output from the player (when playing CD, DD, or DTS whereas multichannel PCM, which comes from hi-def formats DVD-A, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS Master Audio, requires an HDMI connection).

Nick"

I realize you are now using the AES output digitally but out of curiosity, what are the settings on the back of your Ayre?

Cheers,
Jim
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post #13853 of 43103 Old 05-26-2008, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by T100 View Post

I"ve owned my avm 20 for 6 years now and have loved it. I now have a chance to sell it, and purchase a 50 or a D2. Over the years I have learned the avm20 pretty well. and has been a good performer. So my question is which one, 2nd is I"m a little worried about set up. I"m a home theater nut I"ve spent enough to pay for my home, but I love it and I have to say my wife has given total support on my hobbie. I"m not into boats,cars ect.(work for Lexus so I drive different cars all the time) just this. My set up was done by me and consists of 60XBR2, BPS1 or PS3, XA2 ,MCA5 MCA20 XLR connections, montier 11,cc350 pw2200,adp350,ams250, buttkickers all set up by me. So when it comes to letting the 20 go, and trying to make a go at the 50 or D2 its one with apprehension so I value this website to help thru setup of this. You guys know these units well so any feedback is helpful for my decision. Also will there be sound quality difference from 20 to 50.

T100, I have a D2, depending on your budget and A\\V needs the D2 will be a significant step up.
While it slightly pains me to say this, you should also consider the new Denon Pre/Pro. I believe the D2 and the Denon are close in price and features.
I'm not intimately familiar with the Denon but it has a dedicated thread in this forum.
One thing you will give up in going with the Denon would be the "immediate" level of tech support that Anthem offers but from reading the Denon thread, there have been firmware updates.
While I love my D2 and other Statement gear, I always believe you owe it to yourself to investigate the alternatives.

 

It ain't ignorance causes so much trouble; it's folks knowing so much that ain't so

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post #13854 of 43103 Old 05-26-2008, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

The calibration files must have names that match the serial number of your D2. The serial # is also encoded into the file so you can't just change the file names and have it work.

If the ARC install disc provided to you has the wrong files then something was screwed up in the ordering or order fulfillment process, and only Anthem technical support can help you. The plastic protective package for the ARC install disc should also have a label on it showing your D2's serial #. If the label on that plastic case is correct and the files are wrong, then Anthem put the wrong CD into your delivery -- and probably some other D2 owner got your disc.

If the label on the plastic case matches the file names that are installed, and they are all incorrect, then either the wrong serial # was sent in with your order or Anthem sent you the wrong disc for your order.

Again, this is not something you can fix yourself. You need to get the matching calibration files for your D2's serial # *AND* for the particular microphone that Anthem sent you. Only Anthem can fix this for you.
--Bob



I just checked and this is exactly what has happened, the serial number on the disk does NOT match the serial number of my unit, im not sure how this happened which means that there is a possibility that there is someone else out there who is having the same issue because he has my disk, I'll try and put a call int Anthem, thanks for your help


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post #13855 of 43103 Old 05-26-2008, 11:07 AM
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Jim E.,

The yellow font needs to go buddy...not even visible on a white background, so I got my secret decoder ring out to read this :-)

That aside, the content of that dialog with Nick is extremely useful for folks here. I see many posts from folks that would benefit from a thorough reading of Nick's statements. Good stuff indeed...thanks for posting that.

FWIW, I watched the new BluRay of Gone Baby Gone last night, and wow, how great is simple Uncompressed 5.1 PCM over HDMI. The gunshots in the next to final scene literally had me flinching to the point I almost fell off the couch...and this is a movie I've seen twice before! As more and more titles come out on BluRay, it is really an exciting time for sure. I'm still hopeful we'll start to see more concert BluRay discs, more music-related stuff, etc. Right now, the Chris Botti live BR, and the Legends of Jazz (Dolby TrueHD) are gonna get worn out over here from excessive playing :-)

Cheers guys. Have a peaceful Memorial Day everyone,
Brian
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post #13856 of 43103 Old 05-26-2008, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWithAPlan View Post

Jim E.,

The yellow font needs to go buddy...not even visible on a white background, so I got my secret decoder ring out to read this :-)

That aside, the content of that dialog with Nick is extremely useful for folks here. I see many posts from folks that would benefit from a thorough reading of Nick's statements. Good stuff indeed...thanks for posting that.


Cheers guys. Have a peaceful Memorial Day everyone,
Brian

Doh! Sorry about the yellow text. I use the black background so I didn't even realize it.

I take a shot at fixing it.

Cheers,
Jim
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post #13857 of 43103 Old 05-26-2008, 02:11 PM
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I've been trying to figure out what Comcast is doing to my HDTV channels that produces the image degradation I am seeing in critical viewing. It's annoying me because my SD-DVD imaging is pretty darned close to PERFECT with the V1.31c software and my current calibration setup.

I *THINK* what is going on is that Comcast has expanded the digital luminance range from the correct 16-235 range to 0-255 (which necessarily discards Blacker than Black and Peak White data since there is no place to put values less than 0 or higher than 255) and then reduced it back to 16-235.

The result is that Blacker than Black and Peak White data is clipped (or possibly crushed -- e.g., BTB rounded UP to "black" instead of merely being discarded) *AND* banding is introduced due to the rounding errors during these two range changes. In addition, I suspect there has been a YCbCr to RGB and back to YCbCr conversion involved and that the wrong color math was used for Studio vs. Extended RGB as part of that (which is distinct from the HDTV vs SDTV color space math issue). This would show up as color decoder style errors.

This is the simplest "mistake" I can think of that would explain what I am seeing.

The alternative is that it is not a "mistake". That instead they are deliberately recompressing these channels to reduce the bandwidth they take up on the cable (bit starving and resolution reduction -- the infamous "HD-lite") and are just doing it in a particularly heavy handed fashion. The reason I favor the "mistake" is that I'm not seeing the posterization that would normally accompany bit starving.

What's really weird is that my SDTV channels have never looked better! There is still the usual range of bad SDTV content to good (and the bad will ALWAYS look bad), but the channels delivering good quality imaging look better than before. It's always tough to make such comparisons because cable and satellite companies can change their transmission configuration on the fly -- hour by hour in some cases.

------------------------------

I think I may also try swapping out my Comcast box just to make sure it is not a hardware failure in the box itself. But I think that's unlikely because typical hardware failures should look a lot worse.
--Bob



Bob, Comcast (in Denver) just added several new HD Channels and as a result are bit crushing... I think they are trying to keep up with DR TV and in turn we the consumer are suffering. I was reading in the comcast forums that this is happening nationaly. I have stuck with Comcast all these years because I enjoyed the quality of their HD signal....looks like that might be a thing of the past.
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post #13858 of 43103 Old 05-26-2008, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

The calibration files must have names that match the serial number of your D2. The serial # is also encoded into the file so you can't just change the file names and have it work.

If the ARC install disc provided to you has the wrong files then something was screwed up in the ordering or order fulfillment process, and only Anthem technical support can help you. The plastic protective package for the ARC install disc should also have a label on it showing your D2's serial #. If the label on that plastic case is correct and the files are wrong, then Anthem put the wrong CD into your delivery -- and probably some other D2 owner got your disc.

If the label on the plastic case matches the file names that are installed, and they are all incorrect, then either the wrong serial # was sent in with your order or Anthem sent you the wrong disc for your order.

Again, this is not something you can fix yourself. You need to get the matching calibration files for your D2's serial # *AND* for the particular microphone that Anthem sent you. Only Anthem can fix this for you.
--Bob


Bob I spoke with Piero from the Anthem tech support team and he emailed me files that should correspond with my unit, hopefully I will get a chance later this week to try the calibration again. Does anyone know if you lose youre original settings once you try to apply the calibration? Piero said that you dont all you do is bypass the ARC1 settings and you go back to your original settings, anyone have any experience with this? I lost my original settings when I tried to apply ARC1, Piero said that shouldnt have happened and maybe it did because I didnt have the right files to begin with. Although I did save them in user and installer files before attempting the calibration I tried to load back my saved settings after the failed calibration but I received an error when I tried to reload and my settings all went back to default. whats the best way to save the settings or do I need to worry about that now that I have the correct files?


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post #13859 of 43103 Old 05-26-2008, 07:57 PM
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I am new to this thread and I have just installed an Anthem D2 with the ARC. I am quite pleased with the results of the ARC but have some questions. I realise I maybe rehashing questions that already have been answered. If this is so, please point me to the relevant portions of the thread.

1. It has been mentioned many times that the height of Microphone is very important. Given a choice, do you set the height of the MIC at ear height or at the front main speaker's tweeter height.

2. What is the room gain setting and what does it affect. The only complaint that I have with the "after" effects of the ARC is a residual tubbiness in the sound. The main speakers are Paradigm S6s and the center is a C3.

Using a RTA I see that there is a broad 4 db or so hump in the range from 80Hz - 200Hz. I am wondering if reducing the room gain manually would get rid of this, or would it introduce other errors by the ARC.

3. Like a lot of people on the thread the results of the ARC seem to place the crossovers at a very high frequency. In my case the crossovers are placed by the ARC as follows:

S6- 55HZ
C3 - 70 Hz
ADP 590 (Surround and Rears) - 110Hz
Definitive Trinity Subwoofer - 110Hz

Again, is there some benefit to reducing this (esp in the main speakers, which in my room are flat to about 35Hz) and in reducing the subwoofer crossover to 80Hz or below.

If there is a thread on this already could a kind soul point me to it.

Overall though, I must admit that the ARC has been a revelation. It certainly is as good as the TACT that I have been using in the past on my music system. I now have an option of combining my music and cinema system which I did not have before.

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post #13860 of 43103 Old 05-26-2008, 08:32 PM
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Bob, Tom & Jim, thanks for your comments...looks like I've got some further work to do! Bob's suggestions and Nick's email exchange are quite informative...I realize that I'll need to have another look at my settings (i.e. speaker config, etc) to ensure a level playing field for comparison purposes. You guys have covered all the bases, I'll check it out and post back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim E. View Post

I realize you are now using the AES output digitally but out of curiosity, what are the settings on the back of your Ayre?

Jim, the back of the C-5xe has both balanced and unbalanced outputs for analog direct, plus the AES/EBU digital output. There's a switch to turn off/on the digital output plus select the digital sample rate (I leave this at 44/48 kHz for regular CD's).

There's also a "digital filter" at the back which, despite the name, only affects the analog outputs. The filter has two user-selectable algorithms. According to Ayre, one algorithm produces greater accuracy in the time domain and the other produces greater accuracy in the frequency domain. After experimenting with this switch, I prefer the former setting over the latter.

Peter
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