Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide - Page 514 - AVS Forum
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post #15391 of 43294 Old 08-12-2008, 06:22 PM
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My servo 15 is in the front right corner right beside the front right Studio 100.
This has worked very well for me but my room is quite diff. than yours. Mlbrand's idea sounds good to me.
John

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post #15392 of 43294 Old 08-12-2008, 06:37 PM
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new sub new results, this is option 3. Looks like I have a sub now
but the other results are worse then I had before.
The good news is the levels are 1-2db up or down and the sub is minus 2 not 8 like before.
I will save the settings and do a reARC with option 2 tomorrow and see which sounds best and looks best. So far though no real listening as its late and baby is in bed.



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post #15393 of 43294 Old 08-12-2008, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Just to get the ball rolling again, here are the charts for my current set of ARC V1.2.5 results -- Calculated at 12KHz. The previous post of these was one of the posts lost due to the AVS database failure:




--Bob

Bob:

Why does ARC produce targets that start to roll off at 10k in some cases and stay flat up to 20 in others? Also, where they remain flat, why does ARC roll off the calculated response curve?

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post #15394 of 43294 Old 08-12-2008, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TREVLAN View Post

new sub new results, this is option 3. Looks like I have a sub now
but the other results are worse then I had before.
The good news is the levels are 1-2db up or down and the sub is minus 2 not 8 like before.
I will save the settings and do a reARC with option 2 tomorrow and see which sounds best and looks best. So far though no real listening as its late and baby is in bed.




Sub looks very good. Will be interesting to see option 2, tomorrow. Let us know how the new servo works.
John

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post #15395 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Cannot recall offhand as I am not much of a videophile. I can check this weekend but the 983 manual is downloadable from the the Oppo US website.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barhoram View Post

Kal,

Does the 983 offer 480i over HDMI to the D2? If not, what are you setting the output at for SD-DVD?



Due to design limitations because they send SACD over HDMI the Oppo 983 does not send 480i over HDMI.
I have compared component 480i and HDMI 1080i and 1080p from the 983 to the D2 and they all look the same.

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post #15396 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Well, since I use the same speaker configuration for movies and music, the measurements and ARC's recommendations for both were the same. Room gain was set at 3.95dB and I kept that for Movies but I am happier with 1 to 1.5dB for Music.

Does it look to you like the Room Gain setting is, in fact, proportional to the "hump" in the Target curve? I.e., that your Music setting is yielding 1/3 to 1/4 of the "hump" of the Movie setting?

In your listening tests, are you noticing any differences that seem to be happening in frequencies away from the "hump" itself?
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post #15397 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by jayray View Post

This is what I got in the email. Don't know what close is. Mine is 15 ft. away, and I know that isn't close
John

Based on the notes for the V1.2.6 test version (now withdrawn) "close" appears to mean the subwoofer is placed significantly closer to the listening position than the Center speaker distance.

Nevertheless, if selecting a user setting for that produces ARC results similar to what V1.2.6 was doing for all of us, I can't really see that working very well for people. I.e., it won't sound as good as coming up with a better positioning for the subwoofer to begin with.
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post #15398 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Does it look to you like the Room Gain setting is, in fact, proportional to the "hump" in the Target curve? I.e., that your Music setting is yielding 1/3 to 1/4 of the "hump" of the Movie setting?

Yes, it seems proportional although I cannot quantitatively evaluate that, given the graphics available.

Quote:


In your listening tests, are you noticing any differences that seem to be happening in frequencies away from the "hump" itself?

Nope. In fact, the difference is very subtle. It lends a little warmth/weight to the sound but, imho, it also lends a bit of unnatural ripeness to acoustical instruments. Using solo guitar as a test, the bigger bump makes all acoustic guitars indiscriminantly bigger and richer. Undoubtedly, I could live with Movies and Music on either setting but we are picky connoisseurs here, ain't we?

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post #15399 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by TREVLAN View Post

new sub new results, this is option 3. Looks like I have a sub now
but the other results are worse then I had before.
The good news is the levels are 1-2db up or down and the sub is minus 2 not 8 like before.
I will save the settings and do a reARC with option 2 tomorrow and see which sounds best and looks best. So far though no real listening as its late and baby is in bed.




These results look fine and should sound quite good! I don't see any point in fiddling with the Max EQ Frequency or anything else.

Do remember to set up the Phase and Polarity for your new sub -- it may be different from what worked best for your old sub. There's no need to re-Measure ARC if you make any Phase or Polarity changes.

However, plan on re-Measuring in a few weeks to capture any changes that might occur due to break in of your new sub.
--Bob

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post #15400 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemark81 View Post

Bob:

Why does ARC produce targets that start to roll off at 10k in some cases and stay flat up to 20 in others? Also, where they remain flat, why does ARC roll off the calculated response curve?

We still don't have a good answer for why the Target curves vary up there. Need to get more details from Nick (when he gets back from vacation).

The Calculated curves up there track the Measured curves because, by default, the Max EQ Frequency Target is set to 5KHz -- i.e., ARC doesn't try to adjust things above 5KHz.
--Bob

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post #15401 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 11:21 AM
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Any D2 owners using it with a Sony VPL-VW60 (Black Pearl SXRD) projector?

If so, what colorspace are you using? I just got one set up, and the blacks are very bad on it. Best case, there is a haze that seems to move over the black parts, worst case, im seeing big moving blue/purple blocks in the black. It seems worse on SD-DVD and Satellite HD. Blu Ray is a bit better. I'm using pioneer 59AVI SD-DVD, Pioneer Elite BDP94 Blu-Ray via HDMI and DirectTV HD-DVR over componenet. One post in the VW60 calibration thread pointed towards using the wrong color space. I'm trying to find out if its an issue like this, or a problem with the projector itself. Currently D2 is set to HDTV 4:4:4 with a 1080p/60 signal. Thoughts??

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post #15402 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Based on the notes for the V1.2.6 test version (now withdrawn) "close" appears to mean the subwoofer is placed significantly closer to the listening position than the Center speaker distance.

Do you think that includes the distance due to processing delays?

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post #15403 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Do you think that includes the distance due to processing delays?

I don't know. I take it the issue is that they are generally running a higher crossover for the center speaker (not unusual given typical center speaker performance), and that, along with the high crossover for the sub (typically applied in ARC V1.2.5), means that some center channel content with bass undertones -- largely dialog -- is going to the sub. The volume for that will be low (since there's not that much bass in it) but if you are sitting close enough to the sub you might hear it as distracting from the stuff still coming out of the center speaker.

So the issue is not audio timing so much as "near field" sensitivity to this minor amount of center channel audio coming from the subwoofer sitting so close to you.

But the solution to that which they tried in V1.2.6 seems odd. Lowering the sub crossover down as far as 45Hz is likely to introduce other problems, such as loss of LFE. And I believe they may have countered that either by arbitrarily boosting LFE a bit or doing the equivalent of the "Bypass LFE crossover" route -- which can be a problem if your sub's natural response really needs that crossover to keep LFE from being too prominent. The result -- guessing here -- is that LFE was out of balance with other bass and low mid-range.

I think they need to give this one some more consideration.
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post #15404 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 12:20 PM
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Well, unless there's a trick up their sleeve, I can't see how ARC could distinguish physical distance from time delay, so the direct answer is really moot. In my case, the sub is my end-table and serves to hold the cognac and cigars, so it is within arm's length (if I lean over a bit) while the center is about 10feet in front of me. ARC says the sub is 7 feet away. All recent versions of ARC have put the center channel crossover at 45Hz (Audyssey puts it at 60Hz) and integration/localization are not problems at all. FWIW.

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post #15405 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barhoram View Post

Any D2 owners using it with a Sony VPL-VW60 (Black Pearl SXRD) projector?

If so, what colorspace are you using? I just got one set up, and the blacks are very bad on it. Best case, there is a haze that seems to move over the black parts, worst case, im seeing big moving blue/purple blocks in the black. It seems worse on SD-DVD and Satellite HD. Blu Ray is a bit better. I'm using pioneer 59AVI SD-DVD, Pioneer Elite BDP94 Blu-Ray via HDMI and DirectTV HD-DVR over componenet. One post in the VW60 calibration thread pointed towards using the wrong color space. I'm trying to find out if its an issue like this, or a problem with the projector itself. Currently D2 is set to HDTV 4:4:4 with a 1080p/60 signal. Thoughts??

We have lots of Pearl users posting here, so I'm sure someone will chime in, but I don't recall any posts of unusual settings needed to make the Peal work well with the D2.

So go back to basics. Remember that you have multiple Video Configurations in the D2, so make sure you have each Setup / Source Setup set to use the Video Configuration you think you are using. It is also possible to change the currently selected Video Configuration from the remote, so double-check that you aren't doing that by mistake -- perhaps via a programmable remote.

The symptom you describe sounds like your black levels are way too high -- i.e, that you are seeing the Blacker than Black content in the source video. A common reason for that is indeed that you've got a Data Format mismatch -- for example that you have the display set to expect Extended RGB when you are sending it Studio RGB. But you can get the same result by any bad setting that has the effect of cranking black levels (Brightness control) up too high.

Remember that the D2 also has picture controls on the input side. Look in the Video Source Adjust menu for each Source (press and hold the "7" key while viewing that source).

For more hints on the basics of getting video set up, check out the "Video Calibration for non-ISF Techs" post in the collection of post links found in the first post of this thread.
--Bob

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post #15406 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barhoram View Post

Any D2 owners using it with a Sony VPL-VW60 (Black Pearl SXRD) projector?

If so, what colorspace are you using? I just got one set up, and the blacks are very bad on it. Best case, there is a haze that seems to move over the black parts, worst case, im seeing big moving blue/purple blocks in the black. It seems worse on SD-DVD and Satellite HD. Blu Ray is a bit better. I'm using pioneer 59AVI SD-DVD, Pioneer Elite BDP94 Blu-Ray via HDMI and DirectTV HD-DVR over componenet. One post in the VW60 calibration thread pointed towards using the wrong color space. I'm trying to find out if its an issue like this, or a problem with the projector itself. Currently D2 is set to HDTV 4:4:4 with a 1080p/60 signal. Thoughts??

Bob says "For HDMI devices your starting point should by YCbCr 4:4:4" See the following post for most info:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...r#post13015652

EDIT: Looks like Bob beat me to the punch!
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post #15407 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Well, unless there's a trick up their sleeve, I can't see how ARC could distinguish physical distance from time delay, so the direct answer is really moot. In my case, the sub is my end-table and serves to hold the cognac and cigars, so it is within arm's length (if I lean over a bit) while the center is about 10feet in front of me. ARC says the sub is 7 feet away. All recent versions of ARC have put the center channel crossover at 45Hz (Audyssey puts it at 60Hz) and integration/localization are not problems at all. FWIW.

In your case your center crossover is low enough that this particular sub problem wouldn't occur (no bass being steered to the sub from the center channel).

I don't think it is a timing thing. It's just that when you are close to any speaker you will pick up things from that speaker that would not otherwise be noticeable. "Near field" perception.

For people who have center speakers requiring a higher crossover, some of that gets steered to the sub and if you are sitting right next to the sub, I guess it can be distracting.
--Bob

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post #15408 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 01:39 PM
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Interesting....just saw that on the input adjust for my satellite input, HDTV and Extended RGB was Chosen. I switched that to Studio..but didn't see any real time improvement on the picture. I also noticed that the D2 is reporting the input from DVD is HDMI RGB. Should it be HDMI YCbCr? If so, I'll have to dig out the manual to remember where to change that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

We have lots of Pearl users posting here, so I'm sure someone will chime in, but I don't recall any posts of unusual settings needed to make the Peal work well with the D2.

So go back to basics. Remember that you have multiple Video Configurations in the D2, so make sure you have each Setup / Source Setup set to use the Video Configuration you think you are using. It is also possible to change the currently selected Video Configuration from the remote, so double-check that you aren't doing that by mistake -- perhaps via a programmable remote.

The symptom you describe sounds like your black levels are way too high -- i.e, that you are seeing the Blacker than Black content in the source video. A common reason for that is indeed that you've got a Data Format mismatch -- for example that you have the display set to expect Extended RGB when you are sending it Studio RGB. But you can get the same result by any bad setting that has the effect of cranking black levels (Brightness control) up too high.

Remember that the D2 also has picture controls on the input side. Look in the Video Source Adjust menu for each Source (press and hold the "7" key while viewing that source).

For more hints on the basics of getting video set up, check out the "Video Calibration for non-ISF Techs" post in the collection of post links found in the first post of this thread.
--Bob


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post #15409 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barhoram View Post

Interesting....just saw that on the input adjust for my satellite input, HDTV and Extended RGB was Chosen. I switched that to Studio..but didn't see any real time improvement on the picture. I also noticed that the D2 is reporting the input from DVD is HDMI RGB. Should it be HDMI YCbCr? If so, I'll have to dig out the manual to remember where to change that.

That part of the Video Source Adjust menu has two entirely different types of setting in the same place.

If the current input signal is YCbCr, then one setting determines which set of color space math is used to convert it to RGB (for internal processing in the D2). Usually you will set that to Auto which means it uses HDTV math for a 720p or higher input signal and SDTV math otherwise. But it offers the ability to force use of the "wrong" math for source devices that don't put out the correct style of YCbCr signal.

Again, that setting only has effect if the current input from that source happens to by YCbCr.

Meanwhile there is an entirely separate setting in there which only has effect when the current input from that source happens to be RGB. That one tells the D2 whether to expect Studio RGB (Black=16) or Extended RGB (Black=0) from the RGB source device.

Normally you will want that set to Studio RGB. Home theater source devices which send out RGB, generally send Studio RGB by default. If you tell the D2 to expect Extended RGB instead then your image will appear washed out in the dark grays and you will see noise which is actually the Blacker than Black data. This is because the D2 thinks Black is going to come over as 0 but the source is actually sending it over as 16. So you are seeing 16 steps of stuff "below black" that are supposed to be invisible.

If all of your sources are sending RGB like that, and if all of your Video Source Adjust settings are wrong like that, than that alone could be the cause of your problem.

Set the Video Source Adjust menu to expect Studio RGB instead. If the source will send out YCbCr that will be another solution -- and a better one -- but make the Studio RGB change in the D2 menu as well so you don't run into this RGB issue in the future. (YCbCr always sends Black=16, so there is no setting for YCbCr like the one for RGB.)

Remember that the Video Source Adjust menu settings are separately saved for each Source device, so you need to select each Source in turn, bring up its Video Source Adjust menu in the D2, and make the change for each of them.

If you do a Save User and/or Installer Settings, your complete set of Video Source Adjust menu settings will be saved in there as well.
--Bob

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post #15410 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 04:10 PM
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Guys,

Another quick question.

I recall reading in some of the (much) earlier posts that some of the earlier firmware download versions included a "settings editor" which allowed you to save all of your interal D2 settings to a file on your laptop. When I upgraded to 1.21 and then to 1.33 I only see a "video settings editor" which I believe was added so that you could save all the video settings that were added with those new FW releases. I don't see the previous "settings editor" any longer.

Does the new video settings editor save all the normal setup info as well, or was that dropped due to possible problems/issues. I wanted to save all of the setup info when I did the 1.33 upgrade but was anxious to get into the ARC stuff so I did not persue at the time.

Another question on Subwoofer phasing adjust prior to running ARC. You may recall I have two Velodyne SC-12 passive subs running on the Velodyne amplifier in my equipment rack (same signal is sent to both subs from sub out on the D2). I have four phase settings that I can apply, 0 degrees, 90 degrees, 270 degrees, and 360 degrees. My understanding of the need for phase adjustment is to not cancel out the output of one sub by having a second sub out of phase (worst case would be 180 degrees difference from one to the other) and thus cancelling output. Since I can't set these independently (the same setting goes to each sub) the only other area of concern would occurr if my subs were out of phase with my main L/R ( Sig 8s ). But, when trying to do the initial output level setting, as clearly laid out by Bob, I am not able to use the radio shack meter to determine if I am having any phasing issue between the subs and my mains because the test sigmals are sent out to each speaker independently. When the sub level adjust signal is output, I tried switching to different phase positions on the Velodyne amp, but could not detect any difference in output level between any of the settings (which is what I would expect) since each sub would always be in the same phase as the other. The possibility exists though, that my subs could be out of phase with my Sig 8s without my knowing it. I used the 0 degree setting and I don't see any real anomolies in my graphs, other than huge peaks at 30Hz, 70Hz, and 110Hz on my front L/R. I see the high peak at 30Hz in the sub graph, but not at 70Hz or at 110Hz, in fact the sub out put rolls off very quickly past about 60 Hz. I would think I would at least see the 70Hz peak replicated in the raw graph of the sub since the room should effect these frequencies equally. Only other posibility is that my Sub placement has them in a "null" area for this frequency and my front L/R positioning could be catching peak areas for the 70HZ and 110HZ room modes as 2 feet could make a lot of difference. I do recall that we put the front L/R speakers at this poistion due to perceived better base out put.

I may have answered my own questions on this, which is what I usually end up doing due to stressing my brain so much trying to get my thoughts written down , but I would be interested in further discussion on this or at least hearing you thoughts or difficulties, if any, with sub phasing.

FYI - my subs are currently placed in the front L/R corners of my 12 X 19 X 10 enclosed, dedicated theater room, approximately 2 1/2 feet behind the front L/R speakers with each sub facing to the rear opposite corner. The subs are single driver sealed - no ports.

Cheers

John Dixon

P.S. I am leaving work now, so it will be about an hour before I can get back on.

John Dixon
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post #15411 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

There were some reports a while back that people were having troubles playing some of the SACDs out there that have unusual speaker setups (e.g. 4.0) using an Oppo player and HDMI PCM audio.

At the time, I believe it was thought this was an Oppo problem, but I'm not sure that proved to be true. Oppo was undoubtedly in touch with Anthem on this, and so you might want to send an email to Anthem tech support and see if they have any updates on this, and in particular whether they know it to be a player problem with your player.

I presume you are already on the V1.33 Anthem firmware. If not they will likely suggest you try that as a first step.

ETA: I don't think I own any 5.0 tracks that I can try this way.
--Bob

I contacted Anthem and got a response back quickly, as usual . The Anthem only accepts 5.1 or 2.0 over PCM HDMI. Given this, and that for my purposes, I'll just send bitstream and let the AVM do the decoding instead. It has no problem accepting a 5.0 DD bitstream, just 5.0 PCM over HDMI.

I tested a 5.0 Dolby True HD, HD DVD and the Toshiba sends this as a 5.1 PCM stream with the .1 muted.
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post #15412 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AV-NUT-99 View Post

Guys,

Another quick question.

I recall reading in some of the (much) earlier posts that some of the earlier firmware download versions included a "settings editor" which allowed you to save all of your interal D2 settings to a file on your laptop. When I upgraded to 1.21 and then to 1.33 I only see a "video settings editor" which I believe was added so that you could save all the video settings that were added with those new FW releases. I don't see the previous "settings editor" any longer.

Does the new video settings editor save all the normal setup info as well, or was that dropped due to possible problems/issues. I wanted to save all of the setup info when I did the 1.33 upgrade but was anxious to get into the ARC stuff so I did not persue at the time.

The Live Video Settings Editor only handles the Video Source Adjust menu settings. It does not handle the Setup menu settings.

The Setup Editor -- the program that DOES handle the Setup menu settings -- does not currently exist in a form fully compatible with the V1.3x firmware releases. This is due to a change of format for those settings in the Setup menu.

On the password protected download page, Anthem tech support has placed a copy of an older version of Setup Editor which must be used *ONLY* to do a direct memory copy of the Setup menu data between the Anthem and a file on the PC. There is also a text file with instructions for this. This can be used to make a backup copy of your Setup menu settings to a PC file, but, in general, you must restore that into the same version of firmware that was in place when you made the copy. And you can't open or examine the settings (either loading them from the PC file or the Anthem) because they are stored in a format that this version of Setup Editor does not understand.

Because of the risks of people screwing this up, Anthem hasn't put it on the public download page. But if you send Anthem tech support an email they can give you access to the password page so you can get that program.

I don't know if Anthem has plans to bring Setup Editor back in an updated version.

----------------------------------------------

So far, we haven't had any reports here of folks losing their Setup menu settings when upgrading to V1.33 from any older version. Prior to the install, make sure you have a good copy of Saved User and/or Installer Settings. Reload Factory defaults. Do the V1.33 install. After that I suggest you Reload Factory defaults AGAIN. Then Reload Saved User Settings.

If upgrading from V1.29x or earlier you *WILL* need to use Live Video Settings Editor to save your old Video Source Adjust menu settings to a PC file, and to reload them from that file after the V1.33 firmware install.

Also, when upgrading from V1.29x or earlier, after you've loaded up your Saved User Settings and also restored your Video Source Adjust settings, power down the Anthem, power it up, wait 30 seconds, and power it down again. Although we don't have details, it appears this is necessary to make sure your older settings (now reloaded) are properly recognized by the new firmware. This is not necessary when moving between V1.3x releases.
--Bob

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post #15413 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 04:51 PM
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I contacted Anthem and got a response back quickly, as usual . The Anthem only accepts 5.1 or 2.0 over PCM HDMI. Given this, and that for my purposes, I'll just send bitstream and let the AVM do the decoding instead. It has no problem accepting a 5.0 DD bitstream, just 5.0 PCM over HDMI.

I tested a 5.0 Dolby True HD, HD DVD and the Toshiba sends this as a 5.1 PCM stream with the .1 muted.

Thanks for the update on that. I must say I'm surprised by this restriction in the Anthem. Presumably this means that Oppo fixed their problem by having the player output 5.1 PCM with some channels muted.
--Bob

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post #15414 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 05:00 PM
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Bob,

OK, I understand what you are saying on the older settings editor. I don't really need it now as I had no problem saving my settings to user and installer, then bringing them back in as you described. Just more curious and I was thinking about it since I had pulled all the plugs on my stuff when we had the tropical storm here in Houston a few weeks back and due to work and travel, have not had an opportunity to plug everything back in - hope to tonight.

Thanks,

John Dixon
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post #15415 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Thanks for the update on that. I must say I'm surprised by this restriction in the Anthem. Presumably this means that Oppo fixed their problem by having the player output 5.1 PCM with some channels muted.
--Bob

I came to the same conclusion, as I couldn't find the final outcome on the Oppo in this thread.

Given that the Toshiba HD DVD players are discontinued, a new firmware is very unlikely. Since I'm using the Toshiba HD-A30 for my DVD playback (480i over HDMI) exclusively I'm not concerned with this restriction ATM. My 5.0 HD DVDs that require player decoding is sent Anthem friendly (5.1 with a channel muted) so no issues.

Since I don't have a blu ray player yet (still waiting on a player that meets my requirements, although the soon to be release in Canada Pioneer BDP-51FD is looking very good), I am curious how blu ray will handle 5.0 PCM over HDMI.

I was told by Anthem support that he will try to get an answer from their engineers if this is part of the HDMI spec or unique to the design of Anthem.
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post #15416 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 05:05 PM
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Bob,

In looking at your raw sub graph, you have 75 DB output at 100 Hz where I am somewhere below the lower limit of the graph at 100 Hz. Makes me think I am defiitely sitting in a "null" for that frequency in my room. I will try moving them out to maybe match my front L/R placement and redo the measurements.

Where is you DD 18 located in your room?

John Dixon
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post #15417 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 05:32 PM
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Another question on Subwoofer phasing adjust prior to running ARC. You may recall I have two Velodyne SC-12 passive subs running on the Velodyne amplifier in my equipment rack (same signal is sent to both subs from sub out on the D2). I have four phase settings that I can apply, 0 degrees, 90 degrees, 270 degrees, and 360 degrees. My understanding of the need for phase adjustment is to not cancel out the output of one sub by having a second sub out of phase (worst case would be 180 degrees difference from one to the other) and thus cancelling output. Since I can't set these independently (the same setting goes to each sub) the only other area of concern would occurr if my subs were out of phase with my main L/R ( Sig 8s ). But, when trying to do the initial output level setting, as clearly laid out by Bob, I am not able to use the radio shack meter to determine if I am having any phasing issue between the subs and my mains because the test sigmals are sent out to each speaker independently. When the sub level adjust signal is output, I tried switching to different phase positions on the Velodyne amp, but could not detect any difference in output level between any of the settings (which is what I would expect) since each sub would always be in the same phase as the other. The possibility exists though, that my subs could be out of phase with my Sig 8s without my knowing it. I used the 0 degree setting and I don't see any real anomolies in my graphs, other than huge peaks at 30Hz, 70Hz, and 110Hz on my front L/R. I see the high peak at 30Hz in the sub graph, but not at 70Hz or at 110Hz, in fact the sub out put rolls off very quickly past about 60 Hz. I would think I would at least see the 70Hz peak replicated in the raw graph of the sub since the room should effect these frequencies equally. Only other posibility is that my Sub placement has them in a "null" area for this frequency and my front L/R positioning could be catching peak areas for the 70HZ and 110HZ room modes as 2 feet could make a lot of difference. I do recall that we put the front L/R speakers at this poistion due to perceived better base out put.

I may have answered my own questions on this, which is what I usually end up doing due to stressing my brain so much trying to get my thoughts written down , but I would be interested in further discussion on this or at least hearing you thoughts or difficulties, if any, with sub phasing.

FYI - my subs are currently placed in the front L/R corners of my 12 X 19 X 10 enclosed, dedicated theater room, approximately 2 1/2 feet behind the front L/R speakers with each sub facing to the rear opposite corner. The subs are single driver sealed - no ports.

With multiple subwoofers you have two problems to address:

You want to make sure all the subwoofers are in phase with each other -- so that there is no cancellation of the output of one sub by any other sub.

In addition, you want to make sure your combination of subwoofers is in phase with the main speakers so that the output of the subwoofers does not cancel out any of the output from the main speakers in the vicinity of the crossover where they are both active.

The typical procedure is to use the Left Front speaker as the surrogate for all the main speakers and to adjust each subwoofer independently to be in phase with the Left Front speaker. When all subs are in phase with the same main speaker then they are, as a result, also in phase with each other.

But to do this you need two things:

1) A way to send pink noise (noise that's all in the low frequency range) through both the Left Front speaker and each individual subwoofer (all by itself) at the same time, and

2) A way to separately adjust the phase and polarity of each subwoofer separately from the other subwoofers.

You can accomplish (1) by powering down all but one subwoofer at a time and then playing the pink noise test (usually labeled as a subwoofer phase test) from any of the common video calibration DVD discs, such as Avia, or Digital Video Essentials. If you are getting 5.1 input from the player then leave the Anthem in "NONE" audio mode. If you are getting stereo from the player then leave the Anthem in Stereo audio mode. The Movie or Music bass manager will steer bass to the subwoofer as well. [Note that you can not use the Anthem's own internal test tones to do this test.] Once you have adjusted for one subwoofer, power it down and repeat for every other subwoofer.

Accomplishing (2) depends on your subwoofer equipment. If I understand you correctly, the subwoofer amp you are using does not give you the ability to alter the phase of one subwoofer with respect to the other, and there's no way to get around that in the subwoofer amp (i.e., there's no separate output which bypasses that phase control). And that your subwoofers themselves do not have their own phase controls because they are passive (have no internal amp).

If that's the case then you are stuck. There is no way for you to alter the phase of one subwoofer with respect to the other.

So until you change subwoofers, what you should do is ignore the potential issue of the subs being out of phase with each other and just get the pair of them in phase with your mains.

To do that, set the phase control on the subwoofer amp to any fixed value -- 0 degrees would be my choice. Then run the pink noise from the calibration DVD (so that BOTH subs and your Left Front speaker are playing simultaneously), and use the Polarity and Phase controls in the Anthem itself -- Setup / Speaker Calibration / Move and Music -- to adjust the Polarity and Phase of your pair of subs (together) against the Left Front speaker.

--------------------------------------------

By the way, with both subs powered by the same amp, and with the two subs symmetrically positioned either side of, and equidistant from, the main listening position, and with both subs being of the same construction, the odds are they will be in phase with each other without you having to do anything.

The worst that can happen is that you have one sub's wires physically reversed compared to the other sub -- meaning they will be 180 degrees out of phase.

So make sure you haven't done that and then concentrate on getting the pair of them properly in phase with the Left Front speaker and you should be in good shape.

------------------------------------------------

It is also the case that the phasing difference between a pair of subs like this and the Left Front speaker -- even when the phase is 180 degrees wrong -- can be harder to detect because the slight variations in positioning (one sub is closer to that Left Front speaker) will naturally tend to smooth out the cancellation from either sub.

That is, it may be hard for you to determine the right setting of the Anthem's Polarity and Phase control because you can't hear the difference between "best" and "worst" setting when playing the 2 subs against the LF speaker. This is not a bad thing. One of the advantages of having multiple subs is that phasing issues naturally blend away.

But if so, you might want to try this:

Power up only one sub and adjust it against the LF speaker using the Anthem's controls. Note the setting you end up with.

Now power up just the other sub and do the same thing. If the result is different, try splitting the difference in setting in the Anthem, and use that as your candidate "best" setting.

Now that you have an idea where the "best" setting most likely happens to be, power up BOTH subs again and try again. Start with the "best" setting you just determined and then compare that to the setting 180 degrees away from that to see if you can hear any difference. If you can, then see if you can refine your "best" setting at all. If that's too tough to hear, just go with that "best" setting you've already determined.

---------------------------------------------------

It is a good idea to get the volume levels for your main speakers and subs set at least ballpark close before adjusting Polarity and Phase. Cancellation can be a subtle effect and it is easier to hear if the two speakers are putting out about the same volume. When running the pink noise test from the calibration DVD, set the Anthem's Main Volume control to a level that yields about 75dB SPL reading. That's loud enough for you to hear what you need to hear without being so loud that it becomes too painful to listen long enough to hone in on the "best" setting. Trust your ears and adjust Main Volume up or down from that as necessary so that you can complete this task. It takes a while to do a careful listen.

Again what you are looking for is the Polarity and Phase setting that produces the "fullest" sounding bass -- the least cancellation. In particular when comparing a subwoofer against the Left Front speaker, choose the setting that seems to produce the maximum amount of volume in the higher frequencies of the pink noise test as that's the area near the crossover where cancellation will occur.
--Bob

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post #15418 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 05:39 PM
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Bob,

In looking at your raw sub graph, you have 75 DB output at 100 Hz where I am somewhere below the lower limit of the graph at 100 Hz. Makes me think I am defiitely sitting in a "null" for that frequency in my room. I will try moving them out to maybe match my front L/R placement and redo the measurements.

Where is you DD 18 located in your room?

I have a DD-15 and it is located in the room corner at the front left of the room -- outwards of the Left Front speaker.

But the most common reason for a dropoff up there would be the crossover settings. In my case ARC has set the DD-15 crossover to 120Hz so there's no extra attenuation at 100Hz. ARC may have set yours lower.

It is also absolutely essential to make sure the internal crossover has been disabled inside the subwoofer. For the DD-18, go to the crossover frequency setting in the upper left of the Velodyne's settings page. Hit Select to open that setting for changes, and then hit Reset on the remote. All of the crossover related settings should now change to NA, meaning the internal crossover in the DD-18 is disabled. Don't forget to Save your changes when you Exit. You will, of course, have to redo your ARC Measurements.

If you have the sub's internal crossover turned on, ARC will have no choice but to live with that -- meaning your sub response will drop faster as you go up in frequency.
--Bob

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post #15419 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 06:13 PM
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I would like to experiment a bit with ARC, but where my initial results appeared to be quite good, I am apprehensive about tinkering with things too much. If I were to experiment a bit and decide I don't like the settings, is it possible to reload my current results? How is that done?

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post #15420 of 43294 Old 08-13-2008, 06:23 PM
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I would like to experiment a bit with ARC, but where my initial results appeared to be quite good, I am apprehensive about tinkering with things too much. If I were to experiment a bit and decide I don't like the settings, is it possible to reload my current results? How is that done?

Simple. Just do each of your experiments in a separate file.

I recommend you exit ARC after taking the Measurements and write protect that file -- a file with just your Measurements in it; no Calculated results yet. Then make as many copies of it as you want. When you are ready to do an experiment, write enable one of those copies, run ARC in Advanced mode, Open your copied file, setup and run your Calculation, and Upload it. Then exit ARC and write protect that file -- a file that now contains both your Measurements and the Calculation results you just produced.

Over time you will build up several results files like this and you can Open any of them (careful choice of file names will help here) in ARC Advanced mode and Upload it again -- replacing whatever's in the Anthem's ARC stuff prior to that.

Remember to Save User and/or Installer Settings after doing an Upload to capture the Setup menu changes made by the latest Upload.

CAUTION: We've had a handful of reports of ARC Uploads causing all the Setup menu settings to revert to Factory Default values. Typically this will be obvious (your video goes away and you have to use the Front Panel display). In any event, take a look at what's in the Setup menu after the Upload and before you do the Save User Settings just to make sure you are about to save a good set of settings. If you are unlucky enough to have this happen to you (and it is apparently quite rare), it is easy to recover so long as you still have a good set of your prior Saved User or Installer Settings. Power cycle the Anthem to get it into a fresh state, Reload Saved User Settings (using the Front Panel display if necessary), and do the Upload of ARC stuff again. We've not had any reports of this happening twice.
--Bob

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