Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide - Page 517 - AVS Forum
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post #15481 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 10:59 AM
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Bob:

I have the reversed question to one recently posed. How would you do the ARC measurements if you "only" cared about the person sitting in the sweet spot

Still do 5 measurements? Would you still spread 5 out laterally like you have previously mentioned? Or maybe one in front and behind the sweet spot?
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post #15482 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dweltman View Post

Well, my Oppo 980 arrived this morning. A bit of confusion until I realized that 720 was the only resolution that would allow transmission of 5 channels PCM from an SACD (not 1080).

So I am comparing MC SACD from an Esoteric DV-50 Analog Direct to the D2 vs. Oppo 980 DSD/PCM conversion to 88.2/24 to the D2 with ARC enabled. And my family is out of town until tomorrow afternoon. I think audiophiles live for these weekends

I also own the oppo 980h, and unless I misunderstand, it should pass the sacd signal in any of the 'hi-def' resolutions- 720p,1080i/p. But it will not work in 480i/p, which means I have to remember to switch the resolution back and forth when switching from dvd to sacd and back.
Please look at page 22 of the oppo manual for the set-up to hdmi v 1.1 , which is what the D2 supports, and use the settings highlighted in the oppo manual. Set the oppo 'down mix' to 5.1. Even if you have a 7.1 speaker set-up the D2 only accepts 5.1 in. The D2 will matrix the other rear channels if you are using a DSP like dolby plIIx or dts neo. This is a little confusing, at least it was to me, but trust me,use only 5.1.
Since you have some time to play with your system this week-end you may want to try seeing (hearing) what analog dsp with ARC sounds from your cdp.
I use an ayre cx-7e and found that it sounded better for cd's (it doesn't play sacd or dvd-a) than the oppo, and that the ayre sounded best in my system using analog dsp with ARC on. It allows the ayre to use its dac's and the D2 to use the magic of ARC to control the room and speaker shortcomings.
Have fun tweaking!

"You can have my remote when you pry it from my cold dead fingers" tngiloy
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post #15483 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dweltman View Post

Bob:

I have the reversed question to one recently posed. How would you do the ARC measurements if you "only" cared about the person sitting in the sweet spot

Still do 5 measurements? Would you still spread 5 out laterally like you have previously mentioned? Or maybe one in front and behind the sweet spot?

It is absolutely vital that you spread out the (minimum) 5 ARC mic positions (and alternate either side of center).

It is the variation that ARC hears between those positions that allows it to distinguish between room response and the inherent capabilities of each speaker.

The mic positions need to be separated by at least 24" from each other for ARC to do its job.

We haven't really compared mic layouts enough here to know which work best. Another layout I've considered, but haven't tried, is a box layout:

...#2.................#3...

.............#1..............

...#4.................#5...

But I worry that this one might be biased a bit if #4 and #5 are too far behind the side surround speakers or too close to the rear speakers. Anyway, it's worth a try and would seem to be ideal for securing the best results for the #1 position.

--Bob

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post #15484 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 11:24 AM
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Thanks, you have some helpful info there.

My 980 came with the current firmware. It has no problem playing Roxy Music Avalon (I am presuming a 5.1 SACD), but seems to be reverting to Stereo whenever I put on a classical SACD (presumably 5.0). I wonder if I should try a reload the firmware with the 5.0 patch (even though they did it at the factory). I have my feelers out on the Opp thread...
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post #15485 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dweltman View Post

Bob:

I have the reversed question to one recently posed. How would you do the ARC measurements if you "only" cared about the person sitting in the sweet spot

Still do 5 measurements? Would you still spread 5 out laterally like you have previously mentioned? Or maybe one in front and behind the sweet spot?

When ARC was first released many of the early adopters tried using mic positions close to the main listening position. Logically, since I am the main user of the D2, and I sit in the same seat, the ARC would work best if I cluster the 5 mic positions around my sitting position. It didn't work! The ARC works much better to tame the room and blend the sub with the speakers if you make your mic positions at least 2' apart. Start at your prime listening position, then 2 feet or more to one side, then 2'+ to the other side, then 2'+ outside the second position, then 2'+outside the third. For example:
#5---#3---#1---#2---#4

Or #5--- #1--- #4
----- #3--- #2---
Make sure that the mic is pointing straight towards the cieling, and that the mic height is the same. The mic can be moved forward or back in the room, but the #1 reading needs to be at the main listening position, the mic must be pointed straight up, the mic height should be constant, and the mic needs to be atleast 2 feet apart.
Its tempting to put all 5 positions close to the #1, but ARC works better if you allow atleast 2' between them.

"You can have my remote when you pry it from my cold dead fingers" tngiloy
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post #15486 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 11:36 AM
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This may be silly, but how have people created jpgs of their graphs? Normally one can right click and "save as", but I don't seem to have that option with the ARC page.

thanks, dave
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post #15487 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tngiloy View Post

When ARC was first released many of the early adopters tried using mic positions close to the main listening position. Logically, since I am the main user of the D2, and I sit in the same seat, the ARC would work best if I cluster the 5 mic positions around my sitting position. It didn't work! The ARC works much better to tame the room and blend the sub with the speakers if you make your mic positions at least 2' apart. Start at your prime listening position, then 2 feet or more to one side, then 2'+ to the other side, then 2'+ outside the second position, then 2'+outside the third. For example:
#5---#3---#1---#2---#4

Or #5--- #1--- #5
#3--- #2---
Make sure that the mic is pointing straight towards the cieling, and that the mic height is the same. The mic can be moved forward or back in the room, but the #1 reading needs to be at the main listening position, the mic must be pointed straight up, the mic height should be constant, and the mic needs to be atleast 2 feet apart.
Its tempting to put all 5 positions close to the #1, but ARC works better if you allow atleast 2' between them.


Thanks for your advice (and Bob always) on the 980 and the ARC. I am currently running on the first mike setup you show, which is what Bob has advocated in the past. I was curious about:


------------5-------------

-3----------1-----------2-

------------4-------------

and also the "box" setup Bob just described
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post #15488 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemark81 View Post

John:

With regards to write protect, all I've done is saved my initial room measurements as a seperate file. I then use it to try tweaking the calculations. ie., I open up the file, try playing with the various targets by pressing the "targets" tab, and then press the "calculate" tab. If the results look good, I'll do a "save as" to not overwrite the initial default calculated file. If you want to try one of the files containing the resulting curves you've obtained, plug in your pre/pro and press the "upload" tab while you are in the file you want to load. Read only or write protect can be done by right clicking on the file and it will be under "properties", so you don't mistakenly overwrite your initial setting or any other ones you wish to protect.

Hope this helps.

Thank you!
It was not clear to me because I saved the ARC Measurements to my desktop and was trying to right click on the "File" tab within the program to no avail. After being unsuccessful I just used the calculated results and uploaded to the D2. Afterward I tried just right clicking the desktop shortcut without opening it and Lo and Behold the options were available to me! Guess I will follow the write protect advice next time I do a new set of measurements.
Thank you again, All, for your help, John.
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post #15489 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 02:16 PM
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Hello Bob,
Here are my ARC graphs. What do you think?
My ARC Crossovers are; Room Gain 2.199834(Movie) 2.123138(Music)
L/R Front...40 L/R Surround...65 Center..50 Sub...105,(Movie)
Same crossovers for music minus the center channel which I did not use.

 

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post #15490 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dweltman View Post

------------5-------------

-3----------1-----------2-

------------4-------------

The problem with this one is that #4 and #5 don't alternate either side of center. Now I've no idea how crucial that is to the assumptions built into ARC's calculations, but it's something to keep in mind.
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post #15491 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. FRICANO View Post

Hello Bob,
Here are my ARC graphs. What do you think?
My ARC Crossovers are; Room Gain 2.199834(Movie) 2.123138(Music)
L/R Front...40 L/R Surround...65 Center..50 Sub...105,(Movie)
Same crossovers for music minus the center channel which I did not use.

Those curves look fine and the resulting sound should be quite good!

Do you have an acoustically treated room? It looks like ARC found somewhat less inherent Room Gain in your room than many of the charts we have seen here (the "hump" in the Target and Calculated curves near the crossover). This is not a problem -- I'm just curious about what might be the cause.

Your subwoofer looks like it is probably rated down to 30Hz or 26Hz, which is also fine, but not quite as deep as some of the servo-assisted subs people have been reporting here. Again, I wouldn't worry about that, you are only down a little at 20Hz. You won't make the floor bounce like DRHANKZ does with his "low rider" style floor thumpers, but you ALSO won't have to deal with problems in some movies that have excess sub-sonic energy in the LFE that they simply forgot to filter out!

Your room (or speakers) look like they might be a little "bright" around 10KHz, so if you want to experiment with a 12KHz target that could be fun. Unlike most of the curves we've seen here your Measurements are actually a little hot out there in the front speakers. It will be interesting to see if you hear a difference though since your residuals out there are not large.

You've got a pretty sizable room mode at 40Hz that ARC is pulling back into line. The result may be that your initial impression is that explosions sound a little thin at first since they tend to run between 30 and 50Hz (see your sub and LF/RF Measured curves). But your bass should sound quite a bit tighter across the board -- and much more natural. I suggest you take some time to get used to these results and I think you will like them a lot.
--Bob

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post #15492 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 03:57 PM
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If I reposition my sub would I need to rerun ARC?

I am going to try my 2nd option with the sub slipped in between the front left and center.
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post #15493 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by TREVLAN View Post

If I reposition my sub would I need to rerun ARC?

I am going to try my 2nd option with the sub slipped in between the front left and center.

ABSOLUTELY. Even if you just turn it in place or only move it a few inches.

The way the sub couples to the room is very sensitive to placement.
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post #15494 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 04:13 PM
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As I read reviews of various HD movies and assessments of the sound quality,
I am now thinking that without ARC, many of these reviews are irrelevant. Not in a snobby way, but what they hear may be quite diff from what, we who have ARC, hear. For instance, prior to ARC, I thought some movies had very deep bass and now with ARC, some of these loud scenes have settled down but others that were anemic are now very good. A review from me 4 weeks ago would not be accurate and so it may be for many reviewer. Just a thought as I read reviews of Transformers in Blu-ray with TrueHD vs. HD DVD with DD+.
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post #15495 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 04:18 PM
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red curve be ugly...

 

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post #15496 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dweltman View Post

red curve be ugly...

Nah, it's not that bad!

Actually you've only got a max Measured swing of 8dB in everything except the Center speaker -- where you've got a 14dB swing below 100Hz. It looks like ARC has all of that well in hand.

I take it you don't have a subwoofer yet.

Now ARC is Targeting your calibrated setup at around 63dB which is a little low. Did you go through the exercise to set Noise Level to 75dB prior to taking the ARC Measurements? It's no big deal since obviously you can just turn the Main Volume up when playing stuff, but raising ARC's test sweep tones a bit may give you Measurements that pick up a bit more of what your room is doing.
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post #15497 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayray View Post

As I read reviews of various HD movies and assessments of the sound quality,
I am now thinking that without ARC, many of these reviews are irrelevant. Not in a snobby way, but what they hear may be quite diff from what, we who have ARC, hear. For instance, prior to ARC, I thought some movies had very deep bass and now with ARC, some of these loud scenes have settled down but others that were anemic are now very good. A review from me 4 weeks ago would not be accurate and so it may be for many reviewer. Just a thought as I read reviews of Transformers in Blu-ray with TrueHD vs. HD DVD with DD+.
John

This is quite true.

Although there are objective ways to reveal the quality of someone's video setup (what resolution display, what display technology, what calibration tools were used?) there's nothing near as good a way to judge the quality of a reviewer's audio setup. Most audio setups, in my opinion, involve a lot more subjective compromises than happen with good video setups.

There are, of course, other ways people can get an audio result as good as what ARC seems to be giving us. But the really cool thing about ARC is that it is very inexpensive, and that you don't have to be an acoustical engineer to make it yield great results. You just have to have the patience to take the Measurements and experiment with speaker positioning, etc., if you find some problems. In fact, a user can get great audio results with ARC even if he doesn't have the experience to get great video results using common video calibration tools. That's a breakthrough technology in my opinion.
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post #15498 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 05:20 PM
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Anthem has cleaned up the download links for the V1.3x Operating Manuals for the D2, AVM-40, and AVM-50.

The latest download links on the public download pages yield a version dated Aug 13, 2008. Based on byte count these appear to be identical to the Aug 8, versions that were previously found on the password protected download page.

In addition, Anthem has removed the outdated links to the prior, separate versions of the AVM-40 and AVM-50 manuals. All of their AVM manual download links now yield the new, combo AVM40/50 manual which was previously only found included as part of the ARC download kit.

The D2 manual: http://www.sonicfrontiers.com/HTML/P...ual/D2_OM.html

The AVM40/50 combo manual: http://www.anthemAV.com/NewSitev2.0/...OwnersMan.html

ARC users should refer to Section 3.15 in these manuals for information on setup and use of ARC.
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post #15499 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

You won't make the floor bounce like DRHANKZ does with his "low rider" style floor thumpers,
--Bob

I can't wait to see what ARC does with my down to 1Hz Sub Woofers
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post #15500 of 43386 Old 08-16-2008, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by drhankz View Post

I can't wait to see what ARC does with my down to 1Hz Sub Woofers

Finally caught the ARC upgrade bug, have you?


--Bob

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dweltman View Post

This may be silly, but how have people created jpgs of their graphs? Normally one can right click and "save as", but I don't seem to have that option with the ARC page.

thanks, dave

Look in Windows Help for the keyboard combo that does a Screen Capture Active Window. It'll be something like Shift-Alt-PrintScreen or the like. That key combo captures the visible portion of the current active window into the clipboard.

You can then paste it into something like Windows Paint (bundled with Windows) and then Save As to get a file. I suggest you pick JPEG as the format in the Save As to make the file smaller.
--Bob

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post #15502 of 43386 Old 08-17-2008, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thestewman View Post

Due to design limitations because they send SACD over HDMI the Oppo 983 does not send 480i over HDMI.
I have compared component 480i and HDMI 1080i and 1080p from the 983 to the D2 and they all look the same.

Stew

I have used various Oppos as well and I have found that sending 480i looks a lot nicer than anything else.
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post #15503 of 43386 Old 08-17-2008, 05:43 AM
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Here are my ARC charts from my first measurement session on June 27th, with v 1.2.2. I am still using this measurement, but will be getting new subs in a week, and will upgrade ARC and re-measure then.

I have to say that I am very pleased with how ARC sounds in my system. Sound quality definitely improved, most noticeably with tighter bass, and a more articulate and more defined sound to all audio. A very worthwhile upgrade!

Any comments on my measurements?
LL
LL
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post #15504 of 43386 Old 08-17-2008, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Finally caught the ARC upgrade bug, have you?


--Bob

I have had the bug since the beginning - but I don't
have one yet. I'll let you professional debuggers get
it all fixed up

I'm sure how ARC will deal with my (6) LFE channels
will still be a MYSTERY. It certainly does not expect
that.
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post #15505 of 43386 Old 08-17-2008, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drhankz View Post

I have had the bug since the beginning - but I don't
have one yet. I'll let you professional debuggers get
it all fixed up

I'm sure how ARC will deal with my (6) LFE channels
will still be a MYSTERY. It certainly does not expect
that.

It does a pretty good job with my 4 LFE channels so I'm sure it'll be fine with your 6.

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post #15506 of 43386 Old 08-17-2008, 07:39 AM
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Sorry for the OT post, but I thought some of you guys might be interested. I, and a few others with projector-screen combos, have been looking for a small, relatively cheap monitor to use when making adjustments on the D2 instead of firing up the projector each time. Levesque uses a small car video screen, some other people use other solutions. Best Buy just put out a 15" 16:9 lcd tv by Insignia which just fits into the space I had. It takes hdmi, component, and most importantly for me - svideo. It only cost $180 Canadian.

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post #15507 of 43386 Old 08-17-2008, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlbrand View Post

Here are my ARC charts from my first measurement session on June 27th, with v 1.2.2. I am still using this measurement, but will be getting new subs in a week, and will upgrade ARC and re-measure then.

I have to say that I am very pleased with how ARC sounds in my system. Sound quality definitely improved, most noticeably with tighter bass, and a more articulate and more defined sound to all audio. A very worthwhile upgrade!

Any comments on my measurements?

How come your sub's response drops off at 40 hertz? Is your subwoofer crossover set at a low level?
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post #15508 of 43386 Old 08-17-2008, 08:42 AM
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Anyone useing ARC witha Buttkicker setup?? I'm feeding my Velodyne sub via the XLR output and have RCA sub output #1 and #2 feeding 2 Buttkicker Amps and 7 Buttkickers. After ARC, I've had to crank up the volume on both amps to almost 100% (they were at 50% before). With the output matching now, it's hard to put my finger on it, but the sensation isn't quite as good as it was before ARC....seems to be more easy to locate in the chair and slightly delayed. Any thoughgts?? I wonder if there would be a way to get an non-ARC'd sub output from one of the two sub outputs??

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post #15509 of 43386 Old 08-17-2008, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barhoram View Post

Anyone useing ARC witha Buttkicker setup?? I'm feeding my Velodyne sub via the XLR output and have RCA sub output #1 and #2 feeding 2 Buttkicker Amps and 7 Buttkickers. After ARC, I've had to crank up the volume on both amps to almost 100% (they were at 50% before). With the output matching now, it's hard to put my finger on it, but the sensation isn't quite as good as it was before ARC....seems to be more easy to locate in the chair and slightly delayed. Any thoughgts?? I wonder if there would be a way to get an non-ARC'd sub output from one of the two sub outputs??

I use Buttkickers with my Sunfine Subs.

I take the single LFE output from the D2 and feed it into
an external box which has adjustable cross overs and gains.

I split the single LFE channel into (6) Separate Channels to
feed the (6) separate AMPS for Sunfires Subs and Buttkickers.

I have NOT UPGRADED to ARC yet - so I have no idea how
ARC will deal with the LFE Channels. I don't know if ARC
should analyze one at a time or if ARC should look a the
entire LFE Spectrum.
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post #15510 of 43386 Old 08-17-2008, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Those curves look fine and the resulting sound should be quite good!

Do you have an acoustically treated room? It looks like ARC found somewhat less inherent Room Gain in your room than many of the charts we have seen here (the "hump" in the Target and Calculated curves near the crossover). This is not a problem -- I'm just curious about what might be the cause.

Your subwoofer looks like it is probably rated down to 30Hz or 26Hz, which is also fine, but not quite as deep as some of the servo-assisted subs people have been reporting here. Again, I wouldn't worry about that, you are only down a little at 20Hz. You won't make the floor bounce like DRHANKZ does with his "low rider" style floor thumpers, but you ALSO won't have to deal with problems in some movies that have excess sub-sonic energy in the LFE that they simply forgot to filter out!

Your room (or speakers) look like they might be a little "bright" around 10KHz, so if you want to experiment with a 12KHz target that could be fun. Unlike most of the curves we've seen here your Measurements are actually a little hot out there in the front speakers. It will be interesting to see if you hear a difference though since your residuals out there are not large.

You've got a pretty sizable room mode at 40Hz that ARC is pulling back into line. The result may be that your initial impression is that explosions sound a little thin at first since they tend to run between 30 and 50Hz (see your sub and LF/RF Measured curves). But your bass should sound quite a bit tighter across the board -- and much more natural. I suggest you take some time to get used to these results and I think you will like them a lot.
--Bob

Thank you Bob, for your thorough response and suggestions. I will try using the 12KHz target soon.Will I need to re-measure or just enter the new target value and re-calculate? Regarding the room gain value, I have a smallish, 13' x 15' living room that has a large "TV Window" on the backwall leading into the kitchen. The back wall is about 1' behind the listening position. The room also has an entertainment center 7'H x 8'L on the sidewall and a 60" widescreen TV on the front wall. There is also a love seat on the opposite sidewall and 2 "Ekornes Stressless Recliners" on the listening plane across from the TV. I have 2 "Corner Traps", 1 near the Rel Stadium III Sub on the front wall and 1 on the back wall in the same place. The window on the front wall, behind the TV has vertical blinds as well as heavy drapes to reduce light infiltration. The room also has wall to wall carpeting, John.
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