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post #15661 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Keep in mind that the mic positions don't actually have to reflect seating positions. You are sampling the ROOM in the vicinity of the seating positions.

The trickiest thing about your setup is that it appears the far seat in the picture is up against the wall.

Ah....I thought it was ideal to get the seating positions as there was all this talk about ear height and 6" - 1' from the seat back. If actual seating positions don't need to be measured, then I can easily figure something our that will be symmetrical and not be too close to any reflective surfaces.

FYI - The couch is centered in the room, so there is similar space between the wall and the outside seat as there is between the end of the carpet and the outside seat on the opposite side.
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post #15662 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by KCWolfPck View Post

Ah....I thought it was ideal to get the seating positions as there was all this talk about ear height and 6" - 1' from the seat back. If actual seating positions don't need to be measured, then I can easily figure something our that will be symmetrical and not be too close to any reflective surfaces.

FYI - The couch is centered in the room, so there is similar space between the wall and the outside seat as there is between the end of the carpet and the outside seat on the opposite side.

Seated ear height is crucial. Take pains on that. The vertical pattern of treble frequencies from most speakers is usually much more constrained than the horizontal pattern.

The 1 foot thing is to keep the mic from hearing too much in the way of reflection from the surface near it. That's just a Rule of Thumb by the way -- 1 foot seems to be working for people. Or raise the mic a few inches so that the tip of the mic is above the seat back. Or recline the seat back while taking measurements.

Similarly you don't want the mic too close to a wall or other surface. I'm not sure how close is too close, but I'd think you'd want it at least 1 foot out from the wall. The outer mic position near your far seat is going to have to be adjusted so that it is not right up against the wall.

And the #1 mic position needs to be centered, and at the primary listening distance, because that's the one ARC uses to set the basic speaker volume levels. That location has to serve the needs of all your seats, and so a centered position, at the primary listening distance, is your best bet.

Other than that, you want the mic positions to be representative of the portion of the room where you might be sitting. I've had best luck spreading things a bit wider than the sofa length so that the seating positions are inside the area measured by ARC.

Space the mics at least 24" apart (I like 30 inches), and alternate either side of center for each new position. If you don't have enough room width to do this without the outer mic positions being too close to a wall or speaker, my recommendation is that you swing the outer two positions in a bit closer to the screen.
--Bob

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post #15663 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 12:34 PM
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Well, it's been a while since I posted my measurements. Actually, I have not posted any since 1.1. So, now since we are on 1.2.5, I decided it's was time for me to post some of my measurements. As the title indicates, I have measurements. So, here they are. Please take a look and let me know what you think. No punches held.

First Measurement (5khz no sub eq):



Second Measurement (5khz sub eq):



Third Measurement (12khz no sub eq):



Fourth Measurement (12khz sub eq):

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post #15664 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ninja12 View Post

Well, it's been a while since I posted my measurements. Actually, I have not posted any since 1.1. So, now since we are on 1.2.5, I decided it's was time for me to post some of my measurements. As the title indicates, I have measurements. So, here they are. Please take a look and let me know what you think. No punches held.

First off, there's enough improvement in your 12KHz curves -- without problems showing up elsewhere -- that I think they are definitely worth a listen. That's the easy part.

Now two other things jump out and I suspect they result from the same thing -- which is that you've got a pretty thorny room cancellation null between 35Hz and 100Hz, with the worst of it between 35Hz and 50Hz.

I suspect you've applied some room treatment to help with that, and as a result there seems to be no Room Gain at all in your curves (no "hump" near the crossover). Is that how ARC did it, or did you lower the Room Gain value yourself?

Second, ARC is treating the dip at 50Hz as reason to lower the crossover in your non-EQ'd subwoofer. When you EQ the subwoofer, that dip is filled in enough that ARC brings the sub crossover out a bit further. But the impact on the rest of your curves appears to be minor (since you've got decent low frequency response from your other speakers). Which suggests to me that EITHER WAY could work well for you.

For example, the 68dB point (5dB below the basic Target level) is around 35Hz in your LF/RF and around 80Hz in your Center REGARDLESS of whether you've got the subwoofer's internal EQ turned on.

So I would expect the actual listening experience to be very similar between the two different 12KHz setups. In fact the improvement due to getting a little more blending from a little higher subwoofer exposure might be negated by the extra digital processing going on in the EQ. It's tough to know.

I'd try both of the 12KHz setups and pick whichever one feels better to you.

------------------------------------

I'm a little more worried about the lack of Room Gain. Honestly I don't know how important that is going to be. If ARC really is deciding on a 0dB Room Gain, you might try "forcing" something a little higher than that -- say 2dB, and see what it sounds like. You can do this without having to re-Measure. You might want to do it only for Movies.

----------------------------------

ETA: Depending upon what we discover about LFE Bypass related issues, the slightly higher sub crossover of the EQ'd subwoofer may be better for your LFE. That's another consideration. I.e., when trying to choose listen both to movies (and thus LFE content), and music (bass steered to sub from main speakers but no LFE content).
--Bob

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post #15665 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

First off, there's enough improvement in your 12KHz curves -- without problems showing up elsewhere -- that I think they are definitely worth a listen. That's the easy part.

Now two other things jump out and I suspect they result from the same thing -- which is that you've got a pretty thorny room cancellation null between 35Hz and 100Hz, with the worst of it between 35Hz and 50Hz.

I suspect you've applied some room treatment to help with that, and as a result there seems to be no Room Gain at all in your curves (no "hump" near the crossover). Is that how ARC did it, or did you lower the Room Gain value yourself?

Second, ARC is treating the dip at 50Hz as reason to lower the crossover in your non-EQ'd subwoofer. When you EQ the subwoofer, that dip is filled in enough that ARC brings the sub crossover out a bit further. But the impact on the rest of your curves appears to be minor (since you've got decent low frequency response from your other speakers). Which suggests to me that EITHER WAY could work well for you.

For example, the 68dB point (5dB below the basic Target level) is around 35Hz in your LF/RF and around 80Hz in your Center REGARDLESS of whether you've got the subwoofer's internal EQ turned on.

So I would expect the actual listening experience to be very similar between the two different 12KHz setups. In fact the improvement due to getting a little more blending from a little higher subwoofer exposure might be negated by the extra digital processing going on in the EQ. It's tough to know.

I'd try both of the 12KHz setups and pick whichever one feels better to you.

------------------------------------

I'm a little more worried about the lack of Room Gain. Honestly I don't know how important that is going to be. If ARC really is deciding on a 0dB Room Gain, you might try "forcing" something a little higher than that -- say 2dB, and see what it sounds like. You can do this without having to re-Measure. You might want to do it only for Movies.

----------------------------------

ETA: Depending upon what we discover about LFE Bypass related issues, the slightly higher sub crossover of the EQ'd subwoofer may be better for your LFE. That's another consideration. I.e., when trying to choose listen both to movies (and thus LFE content), and music (bass steered to sub from main speakers but no LFE content).
--Bob

Bob, thanks for looking over my results.

I have loaded the 12khz with the sub eq on, and I have been listening to that for a while now. I will try 12khz with no eq probably next week. So far, I am liking what I'm hearing with the 12khz with sub eq.

As for the cancellation, you are correct that I have installed some acoustic treatments to help with the cancellation. At this point, I don't know what else I can try to fix that. I have tried moving speakers around. It might be something that I have to live with. ARC has never applied room gain since the first day I received and ran it. My room gain has always been zero.
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post #15666 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 02:11 PM
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ARC has never applied room gain since the first day I received and ran it. My room gain has always been zero.

What I suspect is going on is that ARC is not coming up with a sensible answer for Room Gain when it looks at the Measurements and thus it is using 0dB as a "safe" default (rather than just guessing what the natural Room Gain for your room ought to be). This is just speculation on my part.

Alternatively, ARC may have decided that the work it needs to do to remove "bad" room response doesn't allow it to retain "good" Room Gain at the same time. I think this answer is less likely.

It is my understanding that all real listening rooms SHOULD show some natural Room Gain, and thus we ought to look at the 0dB result ARC came up with as a problem needing further investigation.
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post #15667 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 02:14 PM
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What I suspect is going on is that ARC is not coming up with a sensible answer for Room Gain when it looks at the Measurements and thus it is using 0dB as a "safe" default. This is just a guess.
--Bob

Is a 0 room gain normal? What is the room gain actually doing?
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post #15668 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 02:30 PM
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Is a 0 room gain normal? What is the room gain actually doing?

Room Gain is the natural room response when playing stuff in a real listening room that is acoustically problem free. It is one factor that leads to the "good" impression that you are listening in a good sounding room, and not in an anechoic chamber or outside. It makes the audio system sound more natural as, among other things, it makes the audio system blend better into what the room sounds like when other noises happen, such as when you talk. Visually it is the "hump" near the crossover region in the Target curves you'll see in other ARC charts posted here.

People who mix audio tracks expect some Room Gain to be present in the listening rooms.

ARC attempts to detect the inherent Room Gain of your room so as to retain that "good" room response even as it is working hard to eliminate all the "bad" room response characteristics of your setup.

Most posters here are reporting ARC Room Gain values in the range of 2 to 4dB.

So it would appear that a 0dB Room Gain result is not normal, and indicates a problem of some sort.
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post #15669 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Room Gain is the natural room response when playing stuff in a real listening room that is acoustically problem free. It is one factor that leads to the "good" impression that you are listening in a good sounding room, and not in an anechoic chamber or outside. It makes the audio system sound more natural as, among other things, it makes the audio system blend better into what the room sounds like when other noises happen, such as when you talk. Visually it is the "hump" near the crossover region in the Target curves you'll see in other ARC charts posted here.

People who mix audio tracks expect some Room Gain to be present in the listening rooms.

ARC attempts to detect the inherent Room Gain of your room so as to retain that "good" room response even as it is working hard to eliminate all the "bad" room response characteristics of your setup.

Most posters here are reporting ARC Room Gain values in the range of 2 to 4dB.

So it would appear that a 0dB Room Gain result is not normal, and indicates a problem of some sort.
--Bob

Ok. Thanks for the explaination. I wonder if the lack of room gain is due to my oddly shape room. Anyway, I will do some more playing around to see if I can improve anything.
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post #15670 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 02:38 PM
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Ok. Thanks for the explaination. I wonder if the lack of room gain is due to my oddly shape room. Anyway, I will do some more playing around to see if I can improve anything.

Yeah, we don't really know enough of what's going on under the hood with ARC.

One thought I had is that ARC might have decided that your room has a NEGATIVE room gain due to the big hole from 35Hz to 100Hz. This doesn't make acoustical sense so ARC uses 0dB instead.

As I mentioned before, you can tell ARC to "force" an unnatural Room Gain upon your room -- i.e., one that differs from what ARC detects itself. Put a value in the Room Gain field (Targets window) and make sure the "force" check box is checked. Accept those changes and re-Calculate. You might try a 2.0 value to start and see what that does to your Target and Calculated curves. The higher the value the bigger the "hump". We are not sure but it appears to be calibrated in dB of the "height" of the "hump".

It's not obvious what the right value should be here. Looking at your Measured curves by eye, I can't figure out what the "real" Room Gain is either. Of course ARC has more info to work with (since those Measured curves are only an average of the different mic positions).
--Bob

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post #15671 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Yeah, we don't really know enough of what's going on under the hood with ARC.

One thought I had is that ARC might have decided that your room has a NEGATIVE room gain due to the big hole from 35Hz to 100Hz. This doesn't make acoustical sense so ARC uses 0dB instead.

As I mentioned before, you can tell ARC to "force" an unnatural Room Gain upon your room -- i.e., one that differs from what ARC detects itself. Put a value in the Room Gain field (Targets window) and make sure the "force" check box is checked. Accept those changes and re-Calculate. You might try a 2.0 value to start and see what that does to your Target and Calculated curves. The higher the value the bigger the "hump". We are not sure but it appears to be calibrated in dB of the "height" of the "hump".
--Bob

Ok. I will give that a try. Thanks Bob.
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post #15672 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 03:01 PM
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Ok. I will give that a try. Thanks Bob.

Here are my results after forcing 2.0 room gain for 12khz:


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post #15673 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 03:18 PM
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Here are my results after forcing 2.0 room gain for 12khz:

Those all look better to me except for the Right Front near 80Hz. Your black hole of a room null is just too deep there and ARC couldn't counter it. You are up another 1 dB there from the prior 12KHz run, but still 4dB below the new Target curve.

One thing to check would be to do the same Room Gain calculation using the 5KHz (with EQ) run you have. That would check the possibility that the problem is that you have pushed Max EQ Frequency up too far (at 12KHz) not leaving ARC with enough resources to fill in that "hump" for the RF speaker. If it looks better at 5KHz, you could then try in between values like 8 or 10KHz to see if you can find the point where that Right Front at 80Hz becomes a problem. Of course if even the 5KHz looks bad there, there's nothing for it but to live with it or find some other way to tackle that hole in your room.

However, even WITH this 80Hz problem in the RF speaker, I think these Calculated curves look better to me than your prior 12KHz (with EQ) result. So if you can't find a lower EQ frequency that helps both ends, I'd be tempted to give this most recent one (12KHz with EQ and with forced 2dB Room Gain) an Upload and a listen.
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post #15674 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Those all look better to me except for the Right Front near 80Hz. Your black hole of a room null is just too deep there and ARC couldn't counter it. You are up another 1 dB there from the prior 12KHz run, but still 4dB below the new Target curve.

One thing to check would be to do the same Room Gain calculation using the 5KHz (with EQ) run you have. That would check the possibility that the problem is that you have pushed Max EQ Frequency up too far (at 12KHz) not leaving ARC with enough resources to fill in that "hump" for the RF speaker. If it looks better at 5KHz, you could then try in between values like 8 or 10KHz to see if you can find the point where that Right Front at 80Hz becomes a problem. Of course if even the 5KHz looks bad there, there's nothing for it but to live with it or find some other way to tackle that hole in your room.

However, even WITH this 80Hz problem in the RF speaker, I think these Calculated curves look better to me than your prior 12KHz (with EQ) result. So if you can't find a lower EQ frequency that helps both ends, I'd be tempted to give this most recent one (12KHz with EQ and with forced 2dB Room Gain) an Upload and a listen.
--Bob

It seems to me that the 2.0 room gain has caused the higher frequencies to drop off a little.
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post #15675 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 03:55 PM
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It seems to me that the 2.0 room gain has caused the higher frequencies to drop off a little.

Yes it has, but only a couple dB. ARC is scrambling to do all that's being asked of it.

You've got a tough one!
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post #15676 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Yes it has, but only a couple dB. ARC is scrambling to do all that's being asked of it.

You've got a tough one!
--Bob

I did the 5khz with the 2.0 room gain, and it looks better to me.

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post #15677 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 04:42 PM
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Well here's a new one... I think.

Just installed two new subwoofers. I now have two 15" MFWs from AV123 and my original SVS PB12plus2. An insane about of subwoofage for my 23x14 HT. I spent a lot of time last night getting the levels and phase dialed in and played around with some LFE demos that sounded insane.

So today I go and run a new set of ARC measurement and the subwoofer drops off dramatically starting at 50hz...what the heck? My previous measurements with just the SVS was going strong right off the chart at 20hz. Anybody have any ideas?

I checked all three subs and they all kick in and have their crossovers disabled. I don't believe it is phase cancellation as it is a steep 25db roll off right at 50hz. This one has me baffled but I guess I'll have to do some more measurements with just one sub and see if I get flat down to 20hz again.
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post #15678 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 07:02 PM
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I did the 5khz with the 2.0 room gain, and it looks better to me.

I agree. So it's pretty clear its a resource issue. You might try inching up a bit to, say 8KHz or 9KHz to see how far you can go before that 80Hz hole in the RF speaker goes bad.

I'd love to see what ARC would do with your room if you REMOVED the room treatments you have now. That would make it pretty clear just how bad the problem is.

I mean I'm thinking "cone of silence" here -- like someone leaning on one of your speakers could belch in that room and nobody else in the room would hear it....


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post #15679 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by obie_fl View Post

Well here's a new one... I think.

Just installed two new subwoofers. I now have two 15" MFWs from AV123 and my original SVS PB12plus2. An insane about of subwoofage for my 23x14 HT. I spent a lot of time last night getting the levels and phase dialed in and played around with some LFE demos that sounded insane.

So today I go and run a new set of ARC measurement and the subwoofer drops off dramatically starting at 50hz...what the heck? My previous measurements with just the SVS was going strong right off the chart at 20hz. Anybody have any ideas?

I checked all three subs and they all kick in and have their crossovers disabled. I don't believe it is phase cancellation as it is a steep 25db roll off right at 50hz. This one has me baffled but I guess I'll have to do some more measurements with just one sub and see if I get flat down to 20hz again.

Sounds to me like you've got a subsonic filter turned on in these subs. 50Hz is pretty high for that to kick in, but maybe you used the wrong control to turn off their internal crossover and instead raised their subsonic filter to its highest frequency.
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post #15680 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

I agree. So it's pretty clear its a resource issue. You might try inching up a bit to, say 8KHz or 9KHz to see how far you can go before that 80Hz hole in the RF speaker goes bad.

I'd love to see what ARC would do with your room if you REMOVED the room treatments you have now. That would make it pretty clear just how bad the problem is.

I mean I'm thinking "cone of silence" here -- like someone leaning on one of your speakers could belch in that room and nobody else in the room would hear it....


--Bob

I went up to 10khz, and it started getting strange. I also noticed that the Center Channel was not as smooth. However, 8khz seems to be pretty good. Actually, it looked better than the 5khz. So, I guess I will stick with 8khz.
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post #15681 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 08:53 PM
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Any thought on what might be the cause for these horrible blacks on my new Sony Black Pearl?

This is the beginning of the Diva scene from the Fifth Element. The Curtains (shown here) and back of the Diva should be black extremely black. Instead, I see blue/purple blotches instead of black.



I calibrated the projector first with the D2's internal patters, the my 59AVI in the video setup menu. I only changed brightness and contrast slightly from 50. I've done nothing to the more advanced settings (gamma, etc in either the projector or D2). Double checked Colorspace, and RGB's match between the two. Anythign else outside the projector??

I posted this over in the VW60 thread as well...appears someone had a similar issue and is having the projector swapped for a new one.

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post #15682 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Sounds to me like you've got a subsonic filter turned on in these subs. 50Hz is pretty high for that to kick in, but maybe you used the wrong control to turn off their internal crossover and instead raised their subsonic filter to its highest frequency.
--Bob

Nope no subsonic filters on. I played around some more as long as I just use the SVS or the MFW stack by itself things are fine. I guess it is cancellation but I'm talking a 25db drop from 50 to 40hz. Turn one or the other off and I'm flat to 20hz. I played with the phase briefly on the SVS but it is such a pain being forced to do five positions just to get a graph. Please Anthem if you are reading this give us a quick look of any speaker at one position.
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post #15683 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by obie_fl View Post

Nope no subsonic filters on. I played around some more as long as I just use the SVS or the MFW stack by itself things are fine. I guess it is cancellation but I'm talking a 25db drop from 50 to 40hz. Turn one or the other off and I'm flat to 20hz. I played with the phase briefly on the SVS but it is such a pain being forced to do five positions just to get a graph. Please Anthem if you are reading this give us a quick look of any speaker at one position.

You are right. No subsonic filter. OK, moving right along:

Try reversing the polarity on either the SVS or the MFW stack (just one of them). If you don't have a polarity switch, try reversing the polarity of the wires feeding one or the other (but not both). You will likely have to swing phase around 180 degrees on that one as well to get it matched back up with your LF speaker. It may be that you've got the polarity wrong on one of them and you are compensating by running the phase 180 degrees around on that one so that it still matches the LF speaker in the vicinity of the crossover. That would explain the severe cancellation you are seeing below the crossover region when driving both the SVS and the stack together. Reversing Polarity reverses the wave form at all frequencies, whereas Phase operates only up near the crossover.

If that doesn't do it, then the only other thing I can think of is that the combo of subs is putting the wrong load on the subwoofer output of the Anthem. But that shouldn't be possible for the line level connection you are using.

You can speed up ARC runs by telling it to only include the LF/RF and subwoofer for the test run. You'll still have to take 5 positions, but you don't have to be so precise about getting the mic height correct as all you care about is the subwoofer curve. Heck you can be pretty loose about the mic positions themselves. In fact, while diagnosing this, you might be able to just leave the mic at position #1 and take all 5 measurements right there.
--Bob

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post #15684 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by barhoram View Post

Any thought on what might be the cause for these horrible blacks on my new Sony Black Pearl?

This is the beginning of the Diva scene from the Fifth Element. The Curtains (shown here) and back of the Diva should be black extremely black. Instead, I see blue/purple blotches instead of black.

I calibrated the projector first with the D2's internal patters, the my 59AVI in the video setup menu. I only changed brightness and contrast slightly from 50. I've done nothing to the more advanced settings (gamma, etc in either the projector or D2). Double checked Colorspace, and RGB's match between the two. Anythign else outside the projector??

I posted this over in the VW60 thread as well...appears someone had a similar issue and is having the projector swapped for a new one.

You say you are using a Pioneer Elite DV-59avi standard DVD player? Do you happen to be using it at HDMI 480i? If so, be aware that there's a problem with the HDMI 480i output from the 59avi when using Pioneer's factory default settings. You need to make some changes to the default settings to get blacks and whites correct.

To see if this is your problem, try HDMI 480p from the player to the Anthem. Pioneer's factory defaults (Direct mode I believe they call it) work fine for HDMI 480p from it. If that works better, then check out the 59avi thread in the standard DVD forum here for details of what needs to be adjusted in the 59avi's settings to get proper HDMI 480i out of it. The changes are not tough to make, but they are by no means intuitive.

-----------------------------------------

It looks to me like you are seeing Blacker than Black detail improperly raised up into visibility. The most common reason for this is that you are sending Studio RGB (Black = 16) to a device that thinks it will be receiving Extended RGB (Black = 0). When setting up Black/White levels, you can fool yourself into thinking you have fixed this by lowering Brightness enough to hide those 16 steps of below black, but odds are it won't really work that well.

Note that you do NOT have to have RGB out from the Anthem if you have RGB in or YCbCr out if you have YCbCr in. Try using YCbCr if you have been using RGB.
--Bob

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post #15685 of 43030 Old 08-21-2008, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ninja12 View Post

I went up to 10khz, and it started getting strange. I also noticed that the Center Channel was not as smooth. However, 8khz seems to be pretty good. Actually, it looked better than the 5khz. So, I guess I will stick with 8khz.

That could be a good compromise for you.

--------------------------------------

Is there anything "custom" about your speakers? Is it even possible that whoever built the internal crossover in them might have screwed it up so that the bass and low-midrange elements in the speaker itself are being driven out of phase?

Do you bi-wire to those speakers? Is it possible that you've got the polarity reversed between the wires driving the bass element and the wires driving the low-midrange?

Have you tried any other speakers in that room to see if they exhibit the same problem? It's not all that likely, but if your speakers are screwed up internally that may explain why you've had no luck battling this as a room correction issue.
--Bob

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post #15686 of 43030 Old 08-22-2008, 08:10 AM
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Bob,

I just wanted to give you a quick update. After, working with this more and more and talking with Piero at Anthem--I'm fairly confident that it is a hardware issue and have thus sent it in for repair. I will let you know what I find out.
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post #15687 of 43030 Old 08-22-2008, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by jlwine View Post

Bob,

I just wanted to give you a quick update. After, working with this more and more and talking with Piero at Anthem--I'm fairly confident that it is a hardware issue and have thus sent it in for repair. I will let you know what I find out.

Thanks for the update. Please do report back what happens.
--Bob

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post #15688 of 43030 Old 08-22-2008, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Try reversing the polarity on either the SVS or the MFW stack (just one of them). If you don't have a polarity switch, try reversing the polarity of the wires feeding one or the other (but not both). You will likely have to swing phase around 180 degrees on that one as well to get it matched back up with your LF speaker. It may be that you've got the polarity wrong on one of them and you are compensating by running the phase 180 degrees around on that one so that it still matches the LF speaker in the vicinity of the crossover. That would explain the severe cancellation you are seeing below the crossover region when driving both the SVS and the stack together. Reversing Polarity reverses the wave form at all frequencies, whereas Phase operates only up near the crossover.

Hmm... I have to chew on this a bit. No polarity switch on any of the amps. so I would have to somehow rig up a temporary RCA connector to reverse the polarity. Since the crossovers are bypassed in all three subs how would this affect the phase adjustments on the amps? I have been adjusting the phase of each sub to my mains. I guess I need to try adjusting between the subs themselves and then use the D2 phase to match with the mains. I wasn't really planning on keeping the SVS but I'm curious enough that I want to figure this out.

Quote:


You can speed up ARC runs by telling it to only include the LF/RF and subwoofer for the test run. You'll still have to take 5 positions, but you don't have to be so precise about getting the mic height correct as all you care about is the subwoofer curve. Heck you can be pretty loose about the mic positions themselves. In fact, while diagnosing this, you might be able to just leave the mic at position #1 and take all 5 measurements right there.
--Bob

Yep already doing just the three speakers, I guess I'll try just one position and see if that works too. I really wish Anthem would add a bit of diagnostic tools to the software...heck I'd even pay for a separate analysis program to use with the mic. AFAIK none of the popular programs such as REW, TrueRTA or ETF use USB mics.
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post #15689 of 43030 Old 08-22-2008, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by obie_fl View Post

Hmm... I have to chew on this a bit. No polarity switch on any of the amps. so I would have to somehow rig up a temporary RCA connector to reverse the polarity. Since the crossovers are bypassed in all three subs how would this affect the phase adjustments on the amps? I have been adjusting the phase of each sub to my mains. I guess I need to try adjusting between the subs themselves and then use the D2 phase to match with the mains. I wasn't really planning on keeping the SVS but I'm curious enough that I want to figure this out.

Just keep in mind that the typical phase control for a subwoofer doesn't act uniformly across all the bass frequencies. Its action is limited to the region up near the typical crossover. This is likely true regardless of where you are doing the phase control. [A phase control that would allow fine adjustment all the way down into the subsonic frequencies would be too expensive.]

A polarity setting, as in the D2's sub output and as found on some subs, is the equivalent of reversing the wires to the sub -- so it acts on the entire range of frequencies reproduced by the sub. It's cheap to do this since you aren't trying to implement fine control -- there are just 2 polarity choices.

Since you are getting strong cancellation at lower frequencies (below 50Hz), and since you already know it is not a subsonic filter (since either sub component works fine all by itself), and since you know each of the two components separately is in phase with the Left Front speaker based on your previous adjustments, then the conclusion is that the two components are being driven with opposite Polarity (thus the cancellation happening at all) but you have compensated in the higher bass frequencies for one of them by swinging the phase 180 degrees around (thus the LACK of cancellation between the two sub components in the vicinity of the crossover frequencies which interact with the LF speaker).

If this is what's going on, then you need to take one of these guys and reverse its polarity while also swinging the phase 180 degrees back for it so as to get it back in phase with the Left Front speaker. [The actual phase adjustment here may not be precisely 180 degrees around -- again due to compromises in the way the phase control is implemented -- but it should be close.]
--Bob

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post #15690 of 43030 Old 08-22-2008, 10:03 AM
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Thanks Bob I'm just trying to think of an easy way to reverse the polarity. It is not easy working on 130lb beasts behind a very narrow screen wall. I have some Canare RCAs I guess I could try wiring one backwards as it really isn't feasible going inside the actual subs.
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