My AVR-3806 Audyssey experience! (measurements inside) - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 417 Old 12-12-2006, 08:04 AM
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yeah...I too think that all these EQ systems have some ways to go before they get all the kinks out. Looks like the Auddyssey Pro version is headed in the right direction....

I didn't know the 5805 MKII CI had the pro already in it....that's sweet. I was planning on upgrading to an Anthem AVM-50, but I may have to hold off on that and see what Denon says at CES
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post #362 of 417 Old 12-12-2006, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

SMS-1 handles all the duties of good equalization of the LFE channel....

You keep repeating that without explaining how, other than your opinion that "it works".
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one comment I find interesting is that you continue to bring the "decay times" into the equation, and this is just comical to me.......what subwoofer have you dealt with that has such horrendous decay times and group delay charactersistics that an electronic equipment (ie, an EQ system, etc) can make a major impact on?

Long decay times are a problem with the room, when certain frequencies continue to bounce back and forth while most other have stopped. Which is why the better "room" correction systems do more than simply attempt to flatten the subwoofer's frequency response for a single listening location. They address multiple seating locations as well as multiple low frequency problems (which are in all speakers, not just the sub). The idea of dealing with resonating low frequencies would be less comical to you if you understood the difference between room correction vs a subwoofer EQ.
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I shared your comment on how great auddyssey helps with decay times with Deon, and just like the others, he basically laughed.

How does his laughing change the fact that Audyssey address low frequency problems that the SMS-1 doesn't?
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Just dont try to give me a bogus explanation and use big words to try to intimidate me to make your point because it just not happening!

I'm writing at a 5th grade reading level. No big words nor intimidation. If you feel my explanation of how Audyssey works is bogus, then point out where I'm factually incorrect.
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Yes, I am talking about the subwoofer output...isn't this clear?

No, because you keep referring to it as the "LFE channel".
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and I have no idea why YOU continue to make the distinction, given that the average user will have his front channels set as small and all LFE output going thru a sub.....

That's why I make the distinction: because the average user has more than just the LFE channel being routed to his subwoofer. LFE is the discrete .1 channel in source material. I don't use that same word to describe a low frequency speaker.
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Forgive me sanjay, but this is ludicrous!
"differences in subwoofer capability have nothing to do with the LFE channel per se, since all the other channels can go just as low"????

What is ridiculous about it? You keep making pronouncement without explaining. Will changing subwoofers in your system somehow change the LFE channel content of a movie soundtrack?
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If you have not heard the differences of what a Rocket ULW-10 sounds like, and an SVS PB12 ultra/2, or Velodyne DD-18, or Fathom F113, or DIY subs such as an AV15 large EBS alignment, or quad Tumult 15"s with BASSIS, or an Avalanche 18" Large EBS sonotube, then I guess I can see how you can say such things.......

You're confusing what I own with what I've heard. Is all of your experience with subwoofers limited only to what you currently own? Just because I don't own a Whise Profunder doesn't mean I don't have experience with one.
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No other "channel" will ever reproduce the frequencies in question here, NONE! If you can find me a pair of Main (L/R) speakers that the average user can use that can reproduce sub 25hz content like the aforementioned subs, please share it with us all because you have found the holy trail.

You're confusing channels with speakers. Every channel is capable of going as low in frequency as the LFE channel.
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I dont want you to show me anything

Then why all the venom. You seem personally upset with me because I (and someone named Nick) have had good results with Audyssey and you haven't. And that's somehow my fault?
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I invite you to move forward and try to figure if there is a way to either setup Auddyssey to not rolloff so quickly below 25hz, or to disengage it from the LFE channel, etc.

Since I don't own an Audyssey based product, I'm not able to tinker with it much. I helped set-up a friend's system based around a 3806 and DD-12, so I'll try to spend some time measuring the low frequency response with and without room correction.

And finally:
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Sanjay....you seem to love arguing

YOU started this exchange between us, not me. I was posting how room correction systems (Audyssey, Lexicon, Meridian, H/K) reduce peaks and ringing in the low frequencies, thereby lessening bass energy in the room. You took exception to that and started this back-and-forth.

There's nothing to "love" about arguing, and not all discussions are arguments. The alternative is for me to deliberately ignore posts you've written and addressed specifically to me. But that would just be rude.

Sanjay

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post #363 of 417 Old 12-12-2006, 09:39 AM
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Comical! All I heard was a buncha , and nothing of value to address this issue.

good day Sanjay....enjoy your low frequency "benefits" from Auddyssey

Back to the rest of the population that is having issues with sub 25hz frequencies and auddyssey
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post #364 of 417 Old 12-12-2006, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

enjoy your low frequency "benefits" from Auddyssey

I wish you would actually read the posts you reply to. As I mentioned (for the third time now), I don't have Audyssey in my system. I use Lexicon's room correction.

Sanjay

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post #365 of 417 Old 12-12-2006, 10:05 AM
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Perhaps we could just terminate this "discussion" since this thread is entitled My AVR-3806 Audyssey experience.

While I find it all facinating reading, and I appreciate Sanjay's viewpoint on his success with this "type" of correction, the reality is that he is not using Ausyssey so the whole Audyssey below 25hz thing really doesn't apply to him.

Let it die, and get the thread back on track, eh?

2 cents

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post #366 of 417 Old 12-12-2006, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I wish you would actually read the posts you reply to. As I mentioned (for the third time now), I don't have Audyssey in my system. I use Lexicon's room correction.

Sanjay

so wait....all this arguing about how auddyssey actually works in real life on sub 25hz content and you dont even have it?

LOL

for the sake of keeping courtesy on this board, I'll leave it alone. I'm sure you are a cool individual usually.

cheers.
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post #367 of 417 Old 12-12-2006, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

so wait....all this arguing about how auddyssey actually works in real life on sub 25hz content and you dont even have it?

Correct; I had to repeat that three times before you picked up on it. However I'm not completely unfamilliar with Audyssey since I have configured a 3806 as well as tried out the standalone Audyssey Pro model (you should try it).

I originally posted to explain why several room correction systems remove bass energy from the room. The whole discussion specifically about sub 25Hz signals is something you brought up in reply to my post, not anything I ever mentioned to begin with.

The only exception I took was with your claim that the SMS-1 and BFD handle the LFE channel correctly when neither measure nor correct time domain problems. There's more to addressing low frequency problems than a flat frequency response. Everything else was a discussion you were having with yourself.

Sanjay

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post #368 of 417 Old 12-12-2006, 12:57 PM
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good lord Sanjay... you still continue with your pompous and childish insults?! let it go already Christ!

so basically you posted a buncha mumbo jumbo that had nothing with the theme at hand: how can one make Auddyssey work correctly on infrasonic frequencies.
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post #369 of 417 Old 12-12-2006, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverlim View Post

I measured 3 areas that was covered in my actual Pro EQ measurements. And in all 3 cases, there was a across the board improvement from 20hz to 20khz for all 3 position with audyssey on. I am still trying to figure out how that could be possible.

EQs can improve the sound for more than one seating location, depending on the specific problem you're addressing.

Anyone who has moved a SPL meter from seat to seat knows that frequency response can vary. A frequency that is peaking at the sweet spot might be at a normal level at the adjacent seat. Bringing down that peak so it's normal at the sweet spot will result in it being too low in the adjacent seat. If Audyssey were limited to measuring and correcting only amplitude related problems, then you wouldn't see (and measure) improvements in all three locations.

However, suppose your left and right walls are just the right distance apart so that a particular frequency bounces back and forth for a much longer time than other frequencies. Any seat between those two walls will hear that frequency linger for an extended period of time, though the loudness will vary from seat to seat.

On amplitude measurements, this ringing often shows up as peaks (though not always). However, if you measure in the time domain and look at the waterfall charts, you'll actually see the long decay time. Since the problem can be heard across all seats, dialing down the resonant frequency will yield a benefit in all those same seats.

That's why it's possible for you to measure an improvement in three locations with Audyssey turned on.

Sanjay

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post #370 of 417 Old 12-12-2006, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

good lord Sanjay... you still continue with your pompous and childish insults?!

What pompous and childish insults? I simply stated facts. If you find my posts offensive report them to a moderator and/or put me on your ignore list.

Sanjay

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post #371 of 417 Old 12-13-2006, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

good lord Sanjay... you still continue with your pompous and childish insults?! let it go already Christ!

Is that how you interpret calm, reasoned, and intelligent responses to your endless ranting? It's not childish; it's making you look silly.
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post #372 of 417 Old 12-15-2006, 09:54 PM
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Well this Audessey deal has really confused me. It just does not seem to work soomthly in my Denon 3806. I just bought this 3806 for my bedroom system and am running a full Klipsch Ref system with 2-25" sub's. My old Pioneer Elite with MAACS worked much more easy. The Audessy has no bass responce, no air to the highs and a ton of midrange. I feel like I've wasted my money because the whole Audessey set up sounds horrible and thin!

I suggest that anyone looking for a receiver to stay away from these Denon's with Audessey. Mine just might be going back to my HT guy.

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post #373 of 417 Old 12-15-2006, 10:15 PM
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You can always adjust the equalization manually if needed. My 3806 sounds full and has deep bass. I've had the result you had before but I just repeated the Audyssey setup and had much better results the second time. I am also using the microphone I bought for my 3805. It seems to be much better than the on ethat comes with the receievrs now. The weight is 2 or 3 times more since it;'s mostly metal instead of plastic. My results have been consistently better with it.

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post #374 of 417 Old 12-16-2006, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

You can always adjust the equalization manually if needed. My 3806 sounds full and has deep bass. I've had the result you had before but I just repeated the Audyssey setup and had much better results the second time. I am also using the microphone I bought for my 3805. It seems to be much better than the on ethat comes with the receievrs now. The weight is 2 or 3 times more since it;'s mostly metal instead of plastic. My results have been consistently better with it.

I noticed that the Denon mic seemed cheap compared to the mic that came with my Pioneer Elite. I will try the Pioneer Mic. As soon as my wife gets up and out of the bedroom I will shut off the phones and air conditioner and re-do the Audessey set up.
Get this....my center channel Klipsch has 2 6.5's and a horn and it set the crossover at 40hz! That speaker will not go that low! It also rolled off all of 16hz too. WEIRD!

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post #375 of 417 Old 12-16-2006, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrums View Post

I noticed that the Denon mic seemed cheap compared to the mic that came with my Pioneer Elite. I will try the Pioneer Mic. As soon as my wife gets up and out of the bedroom I will shut off the phones and air conditioner and re-do the Audessey set up.

Don't bother.... The Audyssey in the Denon is specally calibrated to the supplied microphone.
Using a different microphone will only produce wildly inaccurate results.

Adri.
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post #376 of 417 Old 12-16-2006, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrums View Post

Well this Audessey deal has really confused me. It just does not seem to work soomthly in my Denon 3806. I just bought this 3806 for my bedroom system and am running a full Klipsch Ref system with 2-25" sub's. My old Pioneer Elite with MAACS worked much more easy. The Audessy has no bass responce, no air to the highs and a ton of midrange. I feel like I've wasted my money because the whole Audessey set up sounds horrible and thin!

I suggest that anyone looking for a receiver to stay away from these Denon's with Audessey. Mine just might be going back to my HT guy.

Might I suggest that you use the Flat curve rather than the straight audyssey curve? The only difference in the two is the high end rolloff. Flat doesn't roll off the high end.

I am also fairly sure that you will no be satisfied with Audyssey in the extreme low end. It is going to roll off very low frequencies and given that you are using 2 25" subs I am going to guess that you like some low end rumble. You MAY be able to pick that back up by manually boosting your subs to taste after you run Audyssey.

Bottom line is that if you don't like the results, dont use is. If you have a room with good accoustics, and you have a tap measure and SPL meter handy, I am sure you can achieve the sound you desire by manually EQing, setting distances, adjusting channels with the SPL meter and setting the crossovers that you feel work optimally for your system.

Not liking Audyssey results doesn't invalidate the rest of the things you are getting with a good Denon AVR.

Ruin

P.S. when it comes to the crossovers I too was suprised by the Audyssey choices, but when I actually tested with tones I found that my speakers performed a but outside their specs. For instance I found that a speaker rated with a -3db at 53Hz had no real drop off until 38Hz, so the Audyssey setting of 40Hz as the crossover actually works quite well, which I would not have beleived simply from reading specs.

R
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post #377 of 417 Old 12-17-2006, 07:01 PM
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Thanks for the reply's! I re-did Audessy 3 times between yesterday and today. I turned off the air conditioning and pool pump and told my wife to be quiet! haha! The last 2 times I did 6 sperate mic positions. Still the Audessy rolls off all the low's and highs and boosts 2-4khz...like crazy...I've got Klipsch Ref series horn loaded speakers that have PLENTY of 2-4khz. My wife and I both think that Audessy makes the system sound harsh and nasal.
So I copied to Audessy setting to the flat/manual mode and made my setting from there.

There is NO WAY Audessey can be accurate. I took measurments and they were even off. My 2 sub's are the same distance as my mains and Audessey put the mains at 12.6ft and the subs at 19.2 ft! at one test run and then 14.8ft the 3rd time! WOW! the speakers NEVER moved!

Audessey seems like a gimick and a waste.

The Denon 3806 does sound good though and compared to my 3 year old Pioneer Elite VSX-49TX (very warm and liquad $4k receiver) The denon is every bit as smooth but with a more realistic midrange sound.

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post #378 of 417 Old 12-17-2006, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrums View Post

...My wife and I both think that Audessy makes the system sound harsh and nasal.

Same here. It's very unpleasant. I'm curious to hear how the Pioneer MCACC sounds.
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post #379 of 417 Old 12-17-2006, 10:14 PM
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Any idear if the 3807 will have improvements in this area? I've got a 3802 (old school '01, haha) and have never messed with this Aud EQ stuff (doesn't have it). Anyway I'm anxious to upgrade to the 3807 when it comes out. I've got all new Klipsch Reference stuff and am worried about this EQ stuff hosing the sound up. These things already rip my eyeballs and eardrums out at 2KHz-4KHz (OK, not hat bad , let's just say they don't need any "help" in this area). I guess I don't have to use the EQ function, but would like to take advantage of it.

Pardon my ignorance. Is there a way to let the newer DENON AVR's auto-adjust JUST time delay and not EQ the sound? I have never used a newer DENON AVR.

Thanks.
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post #380 of 417 Old 12-17-2006, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrums View Post

There is NO WAY Audessey can be accurate. I took measurments and they were even off. My 2 sub's are the same distance as my mains and Audessey put the mains at 12.6ft and the subs at 19.2 ft! at one test run and then 14.8ft the 3rd time! WOW! the speakers NEVER moved!

I had the same with my 4306, every measurment gave different distances and different corrections from Audyssey.

I have done and saved lot of measurments to find the one that I finally like. In my case it was achieved with only one measurment in the (almost) center position, all multi-measurments (from 2 to 6 positions) results were really bad. I had to move a little bit around the center position to have not too much of corrections in the mid-range made by Audyssey, and I had to correct manually the level of the sub channel (was set too low). Everything else was fine and I'm now listening most of the time with the flat correction, which makes my 6.1 installation sounds very nice.

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post #381 of 417 Old 12-17-2006, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brahmzy View Post

Is there a way to let the newer DENON AVR's auto-adjust JUST time delay and not EQ the sound? I have never used a newer DENON AVR.

Yes you can turn off the EQ part, then just having the level and time delay corrected.

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post #382 of 417 Old 12-18-2006, 07:38 AM
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I had my first encounter with Audessey over the weekend (different AVR), and I had similar results / impressions to the OP.

I just shut off the Audyssey EQ craziness. But with my setup even the levels had some suspect settings. So I set out to run EQRoom wizard with my RS DB meter, the darn thing set my fronts and my left front way way hot and unbalance, I mean unbalanced to the ear even between the two. My levels indicated no reason for this whatsoever. MY frequency curves showed no reasons for the way it boosted the highs either.

The rest of my levels and distances seemed right on though with the meter and room EQ wizard. I think the EQ made over adjustments for small peaks and valley's inm the curve that are acceptable to me is all. When I started checkin them, I found it over compensated, like a 3db valley that I would leave alone became a 3db peak after the audessey's shot at it.

It sucked the sub out of my system too, and I never really got it back. I now have to have my subs way way hot for acceptable performance making me wish I had not ever even run the darn thing in all honesty. I though of doing a factory reset, but man.. I have like 10 devices programmed into this thing, it would be beyond a pain to re-do that.
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post #383 of 417 Old 12-18-2006, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

I had my first encounter with Audessey over the weekend (different AVR), and I had similar results / impressions to the OP.

First, the auto-EQ in the Denons uses a routine separate from Audyssey for distances and levels and should give accurate measurements. The dozen times I've done that with a 4806, the measurements were all spot-on except for the sub measurements which must account for signal processing and crossover delays in addition to physical distance. If these are wrong, it ain't the fault of Audyssey.

Second, if those are wrong, then Audyssey's work is already corrupted before it starts.

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post #384 of 417 Old 12-18-2006, 08:43 AM
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Well my distances were correct, but the levels were off on my front L/R......

The sub thing is crazy though, afterwards, I could not even tell if my subs were working or not. it was so bad.

I am certainly not sold old this technology and will remain old school in regaurds to it.
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post #385 of 417 Old 12-19-2006, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

It sucked the sub out of my system too, and I never really got it back. I now have to have my subs way way hot for acceptable performance making me wish I had not ever even run the darn thing in all honesty. I though of doing a factory reset, but man.. I have like 10 devices programmed into this thing, it would be beyond a pain to re-do that.

Or you could just click the button and turn it off...?
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post #386 of 417 Old 12-20-2006, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

First, the auto-EQ in the Denons uses a routine separate from Audyssey for distances and levels and should give accurate measurements. The dozen times I've done that with a 4806, the measurements were all spot-on except for the sub measurements which must account for signal processing and crossover delays in addition to physical distance. If these are wrong, it ain't the fault of Audyssey.

Second, if those are wrong, then Audyssey's work is already corrupted before it starts.

Kal, so what are all of us doing wrong with setting up with Audessey?

I follow the manual and do all 6 mic placments. I have a 3806 for my bedroom system. Almost a rectangle room, tray ceiling, sitting room off to one side and long hallway with 2 closets and then bathroom off to the other side. the bedroom is fairly treated well with window treatments and bedding and all carpeted. 42" plasma centered in front of the bed on the wall, Klipsch Ref center speaker below it sitting on top of the dresser and matching Klipsch Ref speakers with built in 15" sub's flanking it. Surrounds are placed very well to the side rear and are also matching Klipsch Ref speakers. My bedroom system is a professional set up but Audessey takes out all the subs, crosses all the speakers over at weird and different crossovers, distance is wacked out and the eq is rolled off at 16khz minus 6-12 all different for each speaker plus mid bass 125hz is rolled out and 500 1k and 2k are boosted like crazy. This gives my system a very hollow, harsh and nasal sound.

What the heck is going wrong here?

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post #387 of 417 Old 12-20-2006, 10:26 AM
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Not saying that it is or is not working correctly, but something that few people seem to take into account is that Audyssey can not/does not take into account individual tastes, and individual differences in hearing.

If you use the flat curve, and Audyssey is tyring to achieve a flat frequency response, but you happen to like a non-flat curve, then you won't like the sound. Also, some of the "wacked out" stuff that Audyssey is doing is for room correction. If you read u p on Audyssey you will note that they even SAY that distance measurements may not reflect actual measured distances because they are artificially increasing or decreasing distances as part of the correciton for room accoustics. Throwing a tape measure down and comparing against Audyssey is a waste of time. If all Audyssey did was simulate a tape measure and an SPL meter it would not be worth it.

personally, being in the over 40 crowd, I expect that I have some personal roll off of the high end, so I don't want the Audyssey curve, nor do I care for what THX processing does to the high end, so I use the audyssey flat curve (which has audyssey fully engaged except for NOT rolling off the high end), and I don't use THX processing.

Folks that have "grown up" with the music mixes put out in the last 20 years are used to overblown. over-subed, bass. "true to life" music is going to sound strange to you.

Anyway, enough rambling. All I am trying to say is that if you don't like the results, don't use it. Also, beware of preconcieved notions of what you thing Audyssey should be doing.

Good luck, and good listening!

Ruin
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post #388 of 417 Old 12-20-2006, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk L. A. View Post

I had the same with my 4306, every measurment gave different distances and different corrections from Audyssey.

I have done and saved lot of measurments to find the one that I finally like. In my case it was achieved with only one measurment in the (almost) center position, all multi-measurments (from 2 to 6 positions) results were really bad. I had to move a little bit around the center position to have not too much of corrections in the mid-range made by Audyssey, and I had to correct manually the level of the sub channel (was set too low). Everything else was fine and I'm now listening most of the time with the flat correction, which makes my 6.1 installation sounds very nice.

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-- Dirk

I've found that if I read the instructions carefully and set the bass on my sub crossover to 100 instead of bypass or any other setting, it sounds good.
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post #389 of 417 Old 12-20-2006, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Well my distances were correct, but the levels were off on my front L/R......

Compared to? I have run Audyssey in the Denon and the stand-alone Audyssey many times and the levels/distances (except for the sub distance) are quite consistent across measurements and with what I can measure independantly or with the NHT setup measurements. How and how much do they differ?

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #390 of 417 Old 12-20-2006, 05:34 PM
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Audyssey is mostly crap. I've given up on it a long while ago, and I love my music ever since. If a software ask you to sacrifice one thing for another, you know it's called cheating. On top of that, bad documentation or no documentation, intentional ambiguity kills the rest of its potential use. I do not understand those who spend so much time on a bad piece of software while they can easily correct their sound problems by investing in new speakers (rather than crapy, overly bright speakers), or correcting room acoustics.

The law of mass conservation says "you don't gain an once by stretching a curve into a straight line."
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