My AVR-3806 Audyssey experience! (measurements inside) - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 01:21 PM
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This is copy of a PM I got from Chris a few days ago as I was starting to work my way through the in and outs of the Audyssey setup. It led me to conclude that setting all the speakers to small would not leave any holes, the same as setting speakers to small without Audyssey. I could be completely wrong as I have no verification of this, but if Audyssey hands off bass management to Denon, then are we not ok setting speakers to small?

"Hi Nick,

Regarding your LFE+Main question, this is probably something we should ask Denon as it really is not an Audyssey component. MultEQ passes the information it calculates to the Denon bass management system (one of the better ones out there). I was under the impression that LFE+Main bass manages the Large speakers, but that may not be the case. If not, then the solution would be to set them to Small manually.

It may not actually make much difference if the cutoff frequency of the satellite is close to the crossover frequency because anything that is sent to the sat below cutoff will not really be reproduce by the satellite.

Best,
Chris

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post #32 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure what you are saying Dennis - if you pick the frequency Audyssey picked as optimum (but still set your mains to small), then you have scenario 1 I indicated above.

If the frequency Audyssey picked for the XO happens to be 80Hz, then it would have already set your speakers to small It sets them large if the XO is < 80Hz.

Andy K.
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post #33 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Nick,

I am basing my analysis on what Chris wrote to me above. If its not true, all bets are off

I still think, even if there are no holes, best case you have confused the Audyssey EQ. For example, lets say it calculates the following scenario:

20Hz-40Hz: Driven by the subwoofer and EQed on that channel
40Hz-20kHz: Driven by the mains and EQed on those channels

Now, you want to set the mains to small. I assume what you are really trying to do here is say "Let the subwoofer drive 20Hz-80Hz". The problem is that now you would have the following scenario:

20Hz-80Hz: Driven by the subwoofer, of which only 20Hz-40Hz is EQed
80Hz-20khz: Driven by the mains, and EQed on those channels

So 40Hz-80Hz would not be EQed by Audyssey in this case.

Andy K.
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post #34 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 02:28 PM
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Let me add a few more comments that may help clarify a number of questions being discussed here.

If your speakers were found to be "Large" based on the "80 Hz rule" then it is quite simple to change the setting to "Small" manually in the Speaker setup menu. Doing so, should show the actual crossover frequency found by MultEQ by going in the Crossover Setting menu and reading the values shown next to each speaker.

If, in addition to manually changing the speaker to Small, you also change the crossover value that MultEQ found then you may run into problems as Andy pointed out.

There have been some questions about whether Audyssey rolls-off the bass. It does not. The Audyssey curve is flat from 20 Hz all the way up to the high frequencies where it then applies a roll-off. The Flat curve (also uses MultEQ filters) and does not apply the high frequency roll-off. The "Front" curve uses the measured response of the front L and R speakers (their average) and applies that to all the other filters, also using the MultEQ filter method. The Manual curve has nothing to do with MultEQ, it is a simple parametric and suffers from the problems that all parametric EQ methods suffer from.

Roger is correct in his observations about Large and Small speakers, and of course, we have Tom Holman here at Audyssey who had a "little" to do with setting those rules in the 80s. The real confusion comes, in my opinion, by the choice of names (Large and Small). A better choice would be to simply indicate whether Bass Management is On or Off.

So, to recap: If your "complaint" about MultEQ is that "there is no bass", I can almost guarantee that this is due to a problem with the bass management settings. Hopefully this discussion will help clarify this.

Best regards,
Chris

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post #35 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 02:39 PM
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Quote:


20Hz-80Hz: Driven by the subwoofer, of which only 20Hz-40Hz is EQed
80Hz-20khz: Driven by the mains, and EQed on those channels

So 40Hz-80Hz would not be EQed by Audyssey in this case

Chris can correct me if I'm wrong but that's not my understanding of how it works. The Audyssey FIR EQ filter is independent of the crossover filters which are IIR filters supplied by Denon. All MultEQ does is calculate the best XO frequency and pass that info to the Denon's XO filters. The FIR EQ filters are full-range and wouldn't (couldn't by their nature) stop correcting between 40 and 80 Hz.

Dennis H
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post #36 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

....So, to recap: If your "complaint" about MultEQ is that "there is no bass", I can almost guarantee that this is due to a problem with the bass management settings. Hopefully this discussion will help clarify this.

Best regards,
Chris

Chris I have to disagree with the scope of your answer. Bass management in the receiver is only a part of what I find wrong in the field.

I find numerous setup problems that can cause bass problems. The subwoofer settings are most commonly at fault in the systems I work on, but settings in source devices are also a factor along with subwoofer positioning and wiring problems to just name a few. I believe in checking the entire system thoroughly to guarantee the system is performing properly. I also like to use test signals and actual audio material from a DVD and CD to confirm that everything is flowing through the system as intended. I always try to consider what it is that Murphy could be doing to make things wrong and make sure that I have a test signal to verify that everything is actually correct.
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post #37 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Dennis, that would be much better and you may be right, but Chris seems to indicate in the post above that its not true.

Chris, thanks again for the valuable info, especially regarding the target curve. I do agree my second attempts are not rolled off in the bass, but they are still a little too 'bumpy' for my taste. I'm also confused by the very repeatable peak at 200Hz.....

Andy K.
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post #38 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

Dennis, that would be much better and you may be right, but Chris seems to indicate in the post above that its not true.

Chris, thanks again for the valuable info, especially regarding the target curve. I do agree my second attempts are not rolled off in the bass, but they are still a little too 'bumpy' for my taste. I'm also confused by the very repeatable peak at 200Hz.....

Andy K.

Andy,

I may have missed this in your earlier posts. How many positions are you calibrating? A colleague in Chicago was running into a similar 200 Hz bump issue and then I found out he was only measuring 2-3 positions that were closely spaced around the main seat. That was not giving MultEQ enough information about the low frequency problems in the room. We recommend a minimum of 4 (preferably 6) positions that are not closely spaced. This doesn't mean to "go crazy" and start measuring by the side walls, but to space the measurements so that they spread out about one couch in width and about 2 rows of seats in depth.

Best regards,
Chris

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post #39 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Let me add a few more comments that may help clarify a number of questions being discussed here.

If your speakers were found to be "Large" based on the "80 Hz rule" then it is quite simple to change the setting to "Small" manually in the Speaker setup menu. Doing so, should show the actual crossover frequency found by MultEQ by going in the Crossover Setting menu and reading the values shown next to each speaker.

If, in addition to manually changing the speaker to Small, you also change the crossover value that MultEQ found then you may run into problems as Andy pointed out.

Best regards,
Chris

Chris (and others), let me see if we are in agreement on my specific issue. To recap:

I have main speakers (paradigm studio 20s) that are too boomy when run full range. Audyssey auto EQ set them as large with a crossover of 40Hz. I am happy to leave the crossover at 40Hz but like to set them as small so as to correct the boomy problem by not letting the studio 20s playing below 40Hz.

Near as I can figure from what I have garnered from the discussion so far, there are no untowrd consequences of the above plan other than correcting the boomy issue.

Again, near as I can figure the 80Hz issue has no bearing on the specifics of this particular setup as outlined above. Based in part on what Chris wrote in a previous post. shown below. Additionally that one only runs afoul of the Audyssey auto EQ when you change the speakers to small AND change the crossover value as well. Don't change the crossover Audyssey has calculated as best and you are ok with small and have no "holes" other than ones that may be caused Audyssey making imperfect corrections. Am I assessing the situation accurately or am I missed something?

Regards, Nick

Chris wrote:
If your speakers were found to be "Large" based on the "80 Hz rule" then it is quite simple to change the setting to "Small" manually in the Speaker setup menu. Doing so, should show the actual crossover frequency found by MultEQ by going in the Crossover Setting menu and reading the values shown next to each speaker. If, in addition to manually changing the speaker to Small, you also change the crossover value that MultEQ found then you may run into problems as Andy pointed out
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post #40 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Chris I have to disagree with the scope of your answer. Bass management in the receiver is only a part of what I find wrong in the field.

I find numerous setup problems that can cause bass problems. The subwoofer settings are most commonly at fault in the systems I work on, but settings in source devices are also a factor along with subwoofer positioning and wiring problems to just name a few. I believe in checking the entire system thoroughly to guarantee the system is performing properly. I also like to use test signals and actual audio material from a DVD and CD to confirm that everything is flowing through the system as intended. I always try to consider what it is that Murphy could be doing to make things wrong and make sure that I have a test signal to verify that everything is actually correct.

Jeff,

You are absolutely right. I didn't mean to imply that this is the *only* problem that could cause subwoofer issues. What I meant was that all other things being equal (and properly checked as you say), we are finding that it is more common than we had originally expected to see incorrect bass management settings.

Best regards,
Chris

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post #41 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick250 View Post


Again, near as I can figure the 80Hz issue has no bearing on the specifics of this particular setup as outlined above. Based in part on what Chris wrote in a previous post. shown below. Additionally that one only runs afoul of the Audyssey auto EQ when you change the speakers to small AND change the crossover value as well. Don't change the crossover Audyssey has calculated as best and you are ok with small and have no "holes" other than ones that may be caused Audyssey making imperfect corrections. Am I assessing the situation accurately or am I missed something?

Regards, Nick

That's a correct assessment.
Best,
Chris

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post #42 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Jeff,

You are absolutely right. I didn't mean to imply that this is the *only* problem that could cause subwoofer issues. What I meant was that all other things being equal (and properly checked as you say), we are finding that it is more common than we had originally expected to see incorrect bass management settings.

Best regards,
Chris

Chris,

I have worked with several of these systems including your competitors. What I find is that people are counting on these systems to do something magical. Your system at least does reasonable things for the most part when confronted with problems unlike many of your competitors who get very heavy handed. The troubling thing to me is that the people who have these more sophisticated receivers also tend to have subwoofers that are equally complex in nature. If this is ever going to work well you need to have some way to guide the owner on speaker placement and subwoofer settings.

I know I spend much of my time adjusting the levels, crossovers, subwoofer settings and speaker placement to get the best blend and least distortion possible before applying any room acoustic modifications at the receiver. It seems to me that this must be considered if these automated techniques are ever going to deliver quality results in the average consumers hands.
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post #43 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Chris, you got it in one. I only have two seats in my room so I was only calculating using the two seating positions. I assumed (incorrectly it seems) that the few positions the better those particular positions would sound.

As an aside, I'm sure you must be aware the Denon manual is miserably inadequate for using this feature You may want to consider hosting a 'step-by-step/troubleshooting' guide on your own website.

Nick,

Quote:


I have main speakers (paradigm studio 20s) that are too boomy when run full range. Audyssey auto EQ set them as large with a crossover of 40Hz. I am happy to leave the crossover at 40Hz but like to set them as small so as to correct the boomy problem by not letting the studio 20s playing below 40Hz.

This is what Chris was mentioning in the first page of the thread - even though the receiver is calling your studio20s 'Large', they are actually only playing from 40Hz up. So they are already doing what you want them to do. If you change them to 'Small', they will only play from 80Hz up. If you leave the crossover at 40Hz and change them to 'Small', neither speaker will be playing from 40Hz-80Hz.

This is Chris quote from the first page:
Quote:


LFE+Main will send bass to the sub and the mains as you say. This is not as bad as you think because the main speakers are actually crossed over to the sub at the frequency that was determined to be optimal. For example, if that happens to be 60 Hz, then anything below that goes to the sub and anything above it goes to the satellites (even if they were found to be Large).

Andy K.
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post #44 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 10:22 PM
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If you leave the crossover at 40Hz and change them to 'Small', neither speaker will be playing from 40Hz-80Hz.

Andy, you really need to stop claiming this without some proof. There's no evidence, and no theory, to back up your claim that this is true other than your assertion that it's so.

Dennis H
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post #45 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

Nick,


This is what Chris was mentioning in the first page of the thread - even though the receiver is calling your studio20s 'Large', they are actually only playing from 40Hz up. So they are already doing what you want them to do. If you change them to 'Small', they will only play from 80Hz up. If you leave the crossover at 40Hz and change them to 'Small', neither speaker will be playing from 40Hz-80Hz.

This is Chris quote from the first page:


Andy K.

Hi Andy, based on what I have learned from the past few days of exchanging posts with Chris I have some disagreement with your explanation of how Denon bass management interacts with audyssey. This is my understanding:

When the speakers are set to large they always receive the full signal range regardless of any Audyssey settings. Just like any other generic bass management system. When the speakers are set to small the speakers play from the crossover point on up and the sub plays from the crossover point on down, just like any other bass management system.

The potential pitfall is altering the crossover points, not the large or small issue. As long as one leaves the crossover points set the same as the Audyssey auto EQ set them you are on firm ground IMO.

As far as the bass management part of auto EQ it's easy to over complicate it. At least thats how it was for me. Part of this is because the manual is so poor. With Chris's help I think I have put all the pieces of the puzzle together on bass management and Audyssey and I think I have a reasonable overview of how Denon and Audyssey interact with each other.

Regards,

Nick
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post #46 of 417 Old 06-16-2006, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult View Post

Andy, you really need to stop claiming this without some proof. There's no evidence, and no theory, to back up your claim that this is true other than your assertion that it's so.

I think I understand the reason for the confusion here. There are two things that relate to 80 Hz.

1) When MultEQ runs through the calibration process it uses 80 Hz as the criterion to designate a speaker as "Large" or "Small". That means that any speaker that shows a -3 dB cutoff below 80 Hz will be called Large and above will be called Small.

2) This does NOT mean that the crossover will be set to 80 Hz for Small speakers. It will be set to whatever value MultEQ found to be the cutoff. If the cutoff frequency is below 80 Hz, then in order to engage it and start bass managing that speaker you must designate it as Small manually. You can see what the crossover value is under Speaker Setup-->Crossover Frequency once you change the speaker to Small under Speaker Setup-->Speaker Config.

So, there is no "loss" of any frequency range unless the bass management is not set correctly. Unfortunately in the current interface the default setting of bass management is not always the one that will give the best results. It is, however, a simple thing to change.

Best regards,
Chris

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post #47 of 417 Old 06-16-2006, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Ah, okay I see. My apologies for spreading any confusion! However your statement from earlier:
Quote:


For example, if that happens to be 60 Hz, then anything below that goes to the sub and anything above it goes to the satellites (even if they were found to be Large).

Reads to me as if the "Large" setting ALSO gets crossed over. If this is true, then I dont see any difference between the "Large" and "Small" settings. They both seem to get crossed over at the cross over frequency. Can you tell me what the difference is, or was this earlier statement a typo?

Thanks,

Andy K.
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post #48 of 417 Old 06-16-2006, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Nick, thats precisely how I would have expected it to behave, but Chris *explicitly* corrected me on the first page. So now I need a final ruling on this from Chris

If you are correct, then I would say the default settings are just plain broken. Either below-the-crossover is sent to *both* the Large mains and the sub (wrong) or the sub is only playing the LFE channel (also wrong unless specifically configured that way).

EDIT: Now that I think about this some more, its possible that having the mains and the sub play the low bass frequencies could be beneficial if they were specifically EQed to play together (kind of like having 3 subs in your room). Since the measurement algorithm plays each channel one at a time, it would have to be pretty fancy to calculate the superposition of all 3 channels and EQ them together....

Andy K.
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post #49 of 417 Old 06-16-2006, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

Nick, thats precisely how I would have expected it to behave, but Chris *explicitly* corrected me on the first page. So now I need a final ruling on this from Chris

If you are correct, then I would say the default settings are just plain broken. Either below-the-crossover is sent to *both* the Large mains and the sub (wrong) or the sub is only playing the LFE channel (also wrong unless specifically configured that way).

Andy K.

Andy,

Let's just say that the default bass management settings are being discussed at the "highest level". This thread has served a very valuable purpose and I am confident that some change will come as a result of the discussions here by well-informed and well-intentioned people.

My earlier statement is not a typo. There are two ways that we have been discussing to address this issue. One is to change the speakers to Small manually and the other is to leave them as Large, but change the Subwoofer setting to "LFE+Main". In this last one, speakers set to Large also get bass managed at the frequency that MultEQ found to be the optimum crossover.

The two methods are nearly equivalent, although one could argue that the LFE+Main is not optimal because the satellites receive low frequencies along with the sub. I don't see this as a big issue since the speaker is rolling off below the cutoff frequency anyway. In my own setup I use the LFE+Main because I like to see the Audyssey light remain green :-)

Best regards,
Chris

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post #50 of 417 Old 06-16-2006, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Green is good

So, to paraphrase what you are saying:

Small setting: Mains receive > XO Freq, Sub receives < XO Freq & LFE
Large setting + "LFE+Main" subwoofer setting : Mains receive all freq, Sub receives < XO Freq & LFE.

IMO the first setting would be a more correct default position, although I do see your point about the speaker rolling off anyways.

Thanks Chris!

Andy K.
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post #51 of 417 Old 06-16-2006, 08:46 AM
 
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Great read. One question. Is it being suggested that if one manually changes the speakers to small that you do NOT set the sub to LFE+Main? You would only do that if the speakers setting were left as large?
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post #52 of 417 Old 06-16-2006, 09:01 AM
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I think that it would be very interesting to compare the auto setup routines and best practices of the different manufactures (i.e. Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer Elite etc...) with both listening impressions and measuring equipment. This thread has been very informative and lead me to using the auto setup routine on my current receiver, when in the past I've resisted on the theory that setup-by-hand is better.
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post #53 of 417 Old 06-16-2006, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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atdamico, if you set the mains to 'Small' I guess there is no choice in the matter - the subwoofer *must* be 'LFE+Main'. 'LFE+Main' means the subwoofer plays the LFE channel plus some amount of the bass from the Main channels.

sage, on paper at least the Audyssey system is far superior to most other mid-range solutions. It is both a time and frequency domain system where the others are essentially auto-set Parametric EQs. At the higher end TacT, Lexicon and Meridian have room EQ systems that are along the same lines as the Audyssey system, but possibly better (for example the Tact system calculates a flat response for different volume levels and dynamically adjusts it in realtime)

Andy K.
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post #54 of 417 Old 06-16-2006, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

Green is good

Small setting: Mains receive > XO Freq, Sub receives < XO Freq & LFE
Large setting + "LFE+Main" subwoofer setting : Mains receive all freq, Sub receives < XO Freq & LFE.

Andy K.

Bingo!

Nick
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post #55 of 417 Old 06-16-2006, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atdamico View Post

Great read. One question. Is it being suggested that if one manually changes the speakers to small that you do NOT set the sub to LFE+Main? You would only do that if the speakers setting were left as large?

Edit: I see Kromkamp beat me to the punch on this, but here is my reply anyway since I already wrote it.

Correct. And to take it another step, when the speakers are set to small it does not matter how the bass management is set. The LFE+Main setting only enters the picture when the speakers are set to large.

Nick
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post #56 of 417 Old 06-16-2006, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

That's a correct assessment.
Best,
Chris

Hi Chris, thanks for taking the time to help me work through my understanding of Audyssey and how it interacts with the Denon 3806. I think I have a decent handle on it now. You know, the "ah-ha now I get it" experience.

For anyone who may be interested here are the results my first listening test after running Audyssey auto EQ on my 5.1 system, read on.

Main Speakers: Three Paradigm Studio 20s v2 as left front and center.
Sub: HSU VTF2
Surrounds: Boston Acoustics VR940s
Room: Mostly open first floor of a townhouse. Guess on area ~750 sq. ft.

After runing auto EQ my only tweak is setting all speakers to small. Audyssey had set them all to large. Audyssey set the crossover to 40Hz on mains and 60Hz for surrounds. Crossover was left untouched. Hell Freezes Over was used for the music test and the first scene of U571 for the movie test. Those are my personal bench marks.

Happily I realized more of a difference than I thought I might. Specifically in two areas.

1. While I love the Paradigm Studio 20s (had them for six years, no major upgradeitis) they are a tad bright for my taste. Audyssey seems to have taken the edge off the brightness and I am very pleased about this.

2. I am starting with three identical speakers as left, right and center so it's always been pretty smooth up front. That being said the sound stage is now truly seamless. I have never heard a better sound stage anywhere, ever. A hugh, unexpected "wow" factor. Truly wonderful to my ears.

I have not detected any loss of impact or dynamic range so far as others have mentioned in other threads. I have only limited listening time so far, so all I can say is so far, so good.

That's the quick update. Thanks again for the help from Chris.

Regards,

Nick
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post #57 of 417 Old 06-17-2006, 12:53 AM
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What I am about to mention may be irrelevant to what happens when Audissey is activated, but in the standard bass management operation of (at least) the 2807, I figured out the distinction between LFE and LFE+Main.

"LFE" mode is the standard, required, and recommended mode for bass management operation per Dolby and THX. It means that the subwoofer receives LFE, plus the bass from any main channel that was set to small, below the crossover point. Any channels set to large will not reach the subwoofer. Net result, the full response of every channel is reproduced. That's good.

"LFE+Main" is there for the stated purpose of ensuring the subwoofer has some signals even when the speakers are all set to large and when there is no LFE channel in the source. If the crossover is set to 80 Hz, then the bass from all "Large" channels below 80 Hz is summed and played from the sub (but not removed from the mains). The manual does not say so, but I believe that LFE+Main treats the bass from Small speakers the same was the LFE mode does--it's sent to the sub. So, one could look at it this way--LFE+Sub means the bass from every channel in the soundtrack is sent to the sub, regardless of the main speaker crossover settings.

If any of the main speakers actually reach deeper than 80 Hz, you have a duplication in the overlap region which can result in excessive and lumpy bass. The manual doesn't tell you that, either. The degree of overlap will depend on the individual response of each main Large speaker, as they are driven full range.

If you are lucky enough for your mains to roll off at one of the crossover frequencies, or if your sub has a variable lowpass filter, then you can blend the sub with the mains, presumably. But if you set your sub's LPF to, say, 40 Hz, then when it comes time to play 5.1 with an LFE track, the LFE signal above 40 Hz is thrown away by the sub. I really doubt that the AVR would be blending the LFE into the "large" mains when the sub is active. It should do that when the sub is set for off, though.

I think the chances of getting material benefit out of the LFE+Main mode is therefore highly remote. If you want the sub to be busy all the time, that will happen in the LFE mode as long as you set the main L/R to small. Even in this case, setting the crossover lower than 80 Hz may limit the LFE channel's contribution, since most bass management circuits mix all the bass first, then pass through a single crossover LPF to drive the sub. Now maybe the Denons route the LFE around this filter, and send it thru a separate 120 Hz LPF before driving the sub. I just don't have that info, and cannot perform that test for a few weeks.

Assuming it is a typical AVR and does not do any fancing handling of LFE, then there is really no practical way to preserve the impact of LFE unless the LPF crossover in the sub path is 80 Hz or higher. So even if you think your mains can do 60 Hz, set the crossovers to 80 anyway.

Can you use full range mains that rolls off naturally around 40 Hz with a sub that splices in at 40 Hz? Absolutely. Set the L/R mains to Large, (C and Surrounds all the Small). Set the Sub to Off. Connect the sub to the L/R line or speaker outpus--not the sub output, and set the sub's crossover for best response blend with the mains.
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post #58 of 417 Old 06-17-2006, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

I think I understand the reason for the confusion here. There are two things that relate to 80 Hz.

...If the cutoff frequency is below 80 Hz, then in order to engage it and start bass managing that speaker you must designate it as Small manually. You can see what the crossover value is under Speaker Setup-->Crossover Frequency once you change the speaker to Small under Speaker Setup-->Speaker Config.

So, there is no "loss" of any frequency range unless the bass management is not set correctly. Unfortunately in the current interface the default setting of bass management is not always the one that will give the best results. It is, however, a simple thing to change.

Best regards,
Chris

Chris, thanks for clarifying this. It helps my undersatanding. Some followup questions, if I may.

Does Audissey select a crossover point from the choices Denon offers, 40, 60, 80, 90, etc, or does it create it's own crossovers right where it wants it? I think you said elsewhere that the Denon bass management is used, and it's one of the better ones.

When the system is using more than one HPF frequency for the crossover in the main channels (like 80 Hz in the surrounds, 60 Hz in the fronts), what happens to the signals feeding the sub? In this example, will there be both a 60 Hz LPF and an 80 Hz LPF, with all the outputs summed before going to the sub? Or is there just one LPF present? If there are two (or more) LPFs, one can avoid gaps or overlaps in the crossover region. Cirrus chips and the ICBM were notable for this capability, so it's plausible Denon may have it, too. That lame manual says nothing about it--and I know that's not your problem. Just thought you might know.

Does the LFE pass through any of these LPFs, or does it go around and head to the sub more directly? If it does not go around, then the LFE impact may be restricted whe using the 40 or 60 Hz crossover settings.
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post #59 of 417 Old 06-17-2006, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

But if you set your sub's LPF to, say, 40 Hz, then when it comes time to play 5.1 with an LFE track, the LFE signal above 40 Hz is thrown away by the sub. I really doubt that the AVR would be blending the LFE into the "large" mains when the sub is active. It should do that when the sub is set for off, though.

That is a very good question Roger, but it seems to me there is a very good chance it must mix the > XO portion of the LFE back into the mains. I say this because (as I'm sure you know ) even at an 80Hz crossover there is still the 80-120Hz region of the LFE channel for a DD/DTS stream. In fact, even if your speakers are set to "Small" some of the LFE channel should be mixed back in to them!

As an aside, I've wondered in the past if the true ideal situation to have a subwoofer that is flat from 20Hz - 120Hz dedicated to the LFE channel? And if so, since the upper range of that spectrum is directional, where would that subwoofer ideally need to be placed in the room?

Thanks!

Andy K.
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post #60 of 417 Old 06-17-2006, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Does Audissey select a crossover point from the choices Denon offers, 40, 60, 80, 90, etc, or does it create it's own crossovers right where it wants it? I think you said elsewhere that the Denon bass management is used, and it's one of the better ones.

Hi Roger. When I ran auto EQ, Audyssey selected from the available crossovers. In my case it choose 40Hz for the fronts (Paradigm Studio 20s) and 60Hz for the backs(Boston Acoustic VR940s). You can view the results of auto setup and see the crossovers Audyssey has picked. Audyssey also set them all as large. I have since set them all to small, without touching the crossover. The Studio 20s are too boomy for my taste when runing full range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

When the system is using more than one HPF frequency for the crossover in the main channels (like 80 Hz in the surrounds, 60 Hz in the fronts), what happens to the signals feeding the sub? In this example, will there be both a 60 Hz LPF and an 80 Hz LPF, with all the outputs summed before going to the sub? Or is there just one LPF present? If there are two (or more) LPFs, one can avoid gaps or overlaps in the crossover region. Cirrus chips and the ICBM were notable for this capability, so it's plausible Denon may have it, too. That lame manual says nothing about it--and I know that's not your problem. Just thought you might know.

Overlaps may only occur on speakers set to large and that overlap being those frequencies below the crossover point of those individual speaker(s).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Does the LFE pass through any of these LPFs, or does it go around and head to the sub more directly? If it does not go around, then the LFE impact may be restricted whe using the 40 or 60 Hz crossover settings.

I could be wrong, but I am reasonably certin that full range LFE goes to the sub always. If not, I think that would be a flaw so drastic as to render Audyssey as seriously hobbled when speakers are set to large (which auto EQ picks most of the time) and you are playing media with LFE encoded content. I could be wrong, but that is my take on it.

Regards,

Nick
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