My AVR-3806 Audyssey experience! (measurements inside) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 417 Old 06-12-2006, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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My AVR-3806 Audyssey experience (measurements inside)

I acquired a Denon AVR-3806 receiver for demo purposes in order to test out the Audyssey Room EQ functionality this past weekend.

My room, although reasonably well treated with bass traps and first-reflection panels, suffers from some very strong modal peaks at 30Hz, 45Hz, and 90Hz. Parametric equalizers (good quality ones) are expensive, and usually have only balanced connections which introduce thier own problems when trying to connect to a consumer (unbalanced) system. Also, they can (and do) introduce phase errors in the system. (The Audyssey system which uses FIR filters can in theory mitigate this)

So, the idea of upgrading my receiver and getting 5-channels of time-aligned EQ to boot seemed like an idea worth pursuing.

My main speakers are PSB stratus Golds (which can play down to around 26-28Hz by themselves). I also have a Velodyne HGS-12 subwoofer. I tried both running the main speakers as "Large" with no subwoofer, as well as trying to cross the subwoofer over for the lowest regions according to where the Audyssey decided they should be crossed over.

I am attaching my before and after graphs. Some general comments:
- I tried measuring with 1 mic position, 2 mic positions, and 6 mic positions, both with sub and without. Generally speaking, the measured response afterwards was remarkably similar. So I have only included one "after" graph and this is fairly representative of all the results.

- When I added the subwoofer into the mix, the system consistently chose to make the main speakers "Large" anyways. While this may be considered a valid mode to some, its not IMO the typical way a subwoofer would be integrated into the system. If you turn the main speakers to "Small", however, you have basically overridden the Audyssey EQ

- As is clearly shown from the "after" graph, the Audyssey EQ for some reason wants to take *A Lot* of the bass energy out of the system. I saw the same approximate frequency response for every different time I ran the algorithm, and it was also similar between the "Audyssey" and "Flat" settings ("Flat" was a little better). No doubt this is what nearly everyone is experiencing when they say that the Audyssey system sucks the life out of the bass.

- Not only that, but I dont see any significant improvement in the "smoothness" of the bass. Its still just as peaky before and after.

- There is a "Manual EQ" setting in the receiver. It offers an option to "Copy the Base Curve" from the flat setting. I had hoped this would allow you to take the "Flat" Audyssey curve and hand tweak it. However, this mode seems to disable the Audyssey EQ entirely. If I copied the "Flat" curve and made no further changes, the resulting frequency response looked nothing like the response I got when the Audyssey EQ was engaged.

- The system seemed to do a pretty good job from about 100Hz upwards. My room is well treated so the "After" response is actually a little bit worse, but its still +/-3dB - very respectable.


Overall, the system clearly did not seem to offer any improvements for my scenario. For a completely untreated room it might offer more improvement, I cant say. A year or so ago, I experimented with the PC-based software called "DRC" which does a similar thing. My feeling then was my feeling now - I'm not sure these "Auto" systems can be trusted to calculate a true inverse of the room properly, and if theres no means to manually adjust it the tool just is not that valuable.

Comments are welcome. I'd be curious if anyone else has measured the before and after, and what kind of results they acheived.

Thanks,

Andy K.
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post #2 of 417 Old 06-12-2006, 05:23 PM
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You are looking at only the frequency domain while Audyssey says that it is doing most of its work in the time domain. Did you measure the decay or impulse responses?

Also, did you listen to it? ;-)

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post #3 of 417 Old 06-12-2006, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I still have the ETF files, I'll serve that up to you tonight. The time domain should inform the frequency response - it you correct one you mitigate the other. Also, all of Audyssey press materials specifically show the frequency response being corrected.

Listening was basically a bust - with so much bass missing it was obviously inferior. My experience may not be the same as others, though.

Andy K.
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post #4 of 417 Old 06-12-2006, 06:10 PM
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I liked what Audyssey did above the sub and I used it with a Velodyne SMS-1 on the sub.

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post #5 of 417 Old 06-12-2006, 06:46 PM
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Hi Andy,

Perhaps I can help answer some of your questions as they are representative of "first experiences" with MultEQ.

First, regarding the "Large" vs "Small" issue. This is purely a matter of definition. In the Denon receivers (following the spec set by Tom Holman for THX--note Tom is an Audyssey co-founder) a speaker is called "Large" if it can reproduce frequencies below 80 Hz. You can argue with this, but it happens to a matter of definition. That means, that in the default bass management mode of the receiver, ALL bass below 80 Hz will be lost. Yikes!

The simple solution is to make the bass management mode (under Subwoofer mode in the setup menu) to be "LFE+Main". In retrospect, I believe this should be the default mode for the receiver, but in any case this is a simple thing to check. Putting the system in this mode allows "Large" speakers to be bass managed at the crossover frequency found by MultEQ (you can see what this is in the crossover set up menu once you switch to LFE+Main.

From looking at the plots you attached, it seems that in the "On" case there is not much signal going to the sub. It would be great if you could try my suggestion and see if you get the performance you expect.

You are correct that "Manual" mode disables Audyssey as Manual = Parametric and there are many known issues with parametric EQ and it's effects on the time domain. MultEQ creates filters for "Flat" (recommended when listening in THX mode to allow THX re-eq to work as intended), "Audyssey" (recommended for non-THX mode), and "Front" (no EQ applied to L and R, but only to the other speakers).

Our website shows example graphs of what MultEQ does in both the frequency and time domains in a typical room.

Finally, a note about room measurements. Measuring with a sinusoidal signal with the mic in one position is not likely to give accurate results because of the extreme sensitivity of this method to standing wave problems. A better way would be to take several measurements and then perform *RMS* averaging (note the emphasis on RMS). Also, in the 3806 the 5.1 analog input does not pass through the DSP so you won't see the effects of MultEQ. The 2 channel analog inputs do see MultEQ and are properly bass managed.

I would be curious to hear back from you about the subwoofer bass management mode. I have to say it is the most common question that we have to answer and is something we have to improve in the interface so that people don't get confused.

Best regards,
Chris

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post #6 of 417 Old 06-12-2006, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Chris,

Thanks for jumping in.

To me, "Large" means the speaker is playing all frequencies. "Small" means it is not. Note that this means if the main speaker is crossed over to the subwoofer at 40Hz, then the main speaker is "Small".

"LFE+Main" means, to me, that the main speakers are playing all frequencies *and* the subwoofer is playing some subset of the bass frequencies. IMO this is not optimal - optimally all your bass frequencies are coming from the subwoofer only, allowing you to place the subwoofer in the best spot in the room acoustically to reproduce bass frequencies. Let me know if I am misunderstanding the "LFE+main" setting. It seemed to me there was no crossover frequency stated until I manually set the mains to "Small".

My "After" plots were done both with the subwoofer connected and disconnected (ie. 2-channel mains only) In the latter case, this confusion shouldnt be an issue. Can you confirm the "Audyssey" curve is not supposed to 'roll' the bass off like I am seeing?

Interesting comment on the 5.1 analog input. In my case I was using the V-AuX stereo front input - can you confirm that MultEQ should be engaged for this input?

I will double-check the bass management mode tomorrow night (too late to make loud sine sweeping noises tonight )

Thanks,

Andy K.
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post #7 of 417 Old 06-12-2006, 08:48 PM
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Chris, you are just the person I am looking for. Like Andy I just went through the Audyssey Room EQ on Sunday with the 3806. After I ran the EQ setup, I had a couple of problems that I had worked through with a very minor bit of tweaking. I have three Paradigm Studio 20s as my L C R speakers. These were set to large and crossed at 40Hz. Studio 20s (at least v2) have very boomy bass and sounded bad. Set them all to small and they sounded great! Less bright and smooth as silk. The front sound stage was seamless. Wonderful! Eagles HFO Concert DVD (my reference) was the best I have heard with my system, which I have had for six years. The Hsu VT2 was nicely integrated. Played chapter one of U 571 and plenty of slam and yet the quiet parts were clear as can be.

So what do I have to complain about? Making and retaining changes has been very challenging. Today when I again turned on my receiver, the little red light that says "you are in manual mode but using the modified Audyussey EQ" was no longer a choice as it was last night. Go back and make the changes again, red light comes on, all is good. Turn off receive and when I turn it back on, little red light saying I am using modified Audyussey is not a choice any longer.

Chris, here is the crux of the problem. Running Audyussey auto EQ, no problem. It provides terrific results. Tweaking, and making and retaining changes, is daunting. I have poured over the manual to no avail. Poked and probed every menu I could find. It seems I can only make changes to manual setup (that mimics Audussey initially), but these get lost when I turn off the 3806. The actually Audyseey auto EQ results will not let me make changes to it which is what I really want. I am not a newbie to this stuff, but so far I can not get all the pieces to work for me. Any help is much appreciated, be it PDF files, links or your own valuable time.

Regards, Nick
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post #8 of 417 Old 06-13-2006, 05:46 AM
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Hi Andy,

Your notion of what Large and Small should mean is correct, but unfortunately that is not the industry definition (80 Hz is used instead) used in most receivers and pre-pros.

The simplest way to think of it is: Large will not be bass managed and Small will. If you ar lucky to have a true Large speaker that has a -3 dB cutoff of 20 Hz then this is not a problem. If you don't then you have to make sure that the bass below the actual cutoff is sent to the subwoofer. That can only happen if you set the subwoofer mode to LFE+Main.

LFE+Main will send bass to the sub and the mains as you say. This is not as bad as you think because the main speakers are actually crossed over to the sub at the frequency that was determined to be optimal. For example, if that happens to be 60 Hz, then anything below that goes to the sub and anything above it goes to the satellites (even if they were found to be Large).

None of the target curves that we use roll off the bass so I believe you are seeing the effects of incorrect bass management settings.

Let me know how it goes.

Regards,
Chris

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post #9 of 417 Old 06-13-2006, 05:57 AM
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Hi Nick,

Please read my comments about setting the subwoofer mode to LFE+Main that I wrote to Andy. They definitely apply to your case as well. Setting the speakers to Small manually is basically the same thing. The only difference is that it turns on the red MultEQ light to indicate that a change was made from the default settings found by MultEQ.

I want to make sure I understand the problem. When you say "Manual" are you referring to the Manual EQ curve that allows you to change the parametric bands? If so, that has nothing to do with MultEQ room correction. It is the same type of traditional parametric that all receivers have and suffers from the known problems of parametric EQ. I don't know much about how to save those settings.

If you are referring to making manual changes to speaker settings (Small vs Large), the crossover values, the levels, and the delays then these are all available in the settings menu and are not all that hard to find. It's not really possible to manually change the Audyssey EQ filters as these are not the traditional few parametric bands, but special implementations of FIR filters that use 512 coefficients for time and frequency domain correction.

I would be happy to help with any set up issues you may have, but I have not seen a problem of not being able to save the changes to crossover, level, and delay.

Regards,
Chris

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post #10 of 417 Old 06-13-2006, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Kal,

I agree that above 100Hz it seems to do a pretty good job. Unfortunately I had no way to manually EQ the sub to listen to the 'whole'. I have to wonder if the Audyssey algo+another EQ might not be too many things in the signal path, though.

Chris,

Thanks for the clarification, it sounds like "LFE+Main" does precisely what I am looking for then. They need to invent a "Medium" speaker size

Should I manually set the Subwoofer to "LFE+Main" before running the Audyssey algo, or should I set it after?

Also, can you explain why I am seeing a similar bass rolloff when in pure 2-channel (no subwoofer) configuration?

Finally, can you tell me if your MultiEQ-Pro standalone box offers the installer the ability to customize a "house curve" that the algorithm would work towards? This would allow some manual flexibility to compensate for issues like these.

Thanks!

Andy K.
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post #11 of 417 Old 06-13-2006, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Nick,

Depending on where you live I could come to your home to fix this.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4&#post7690864

Thanks for the offer Jeff. A long drive from TX to MA.

Nick
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post #12 of 417 Old 06-13-2006, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

I agree that above 100Hz it seems to do a pretty good job. Unfortunately I had no way to manually EQ the sub to listen to the 'whole'. I have to wonder if the Audyssey algo+another EQ might not be too many things in the signal path, though.

Well, the SMS-1 is only in the subwoofer signal path and not in any other. I simply EQ the sub with the SMS-1 and then let the Audyssey do its thing. Both with Audyssey and with the Meridian DRC, the SMS was a valuable addition.

I understand that the AudysseyPro will have much greater processing/filtering power in the bass than the AVR applications and, because it inserts additional A/D and D/A in the signal path, may change that balance Nonetheless, at present, I can see no real downside to a careful amplitude and integration correction for the sub to give the auto EQ functions a more level playing field.

Kal

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post #13 of 417 Old 06-13-2006, 08:07 AM
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While it's a bit hard to tell everything that's going on with the 1/3 octave smoothing, the results do appear to be quite disappointing. Even the midrange is smoother in the before pic. I did a quickie paste of the after pic on top of the before pic to make them easier to compare. If it were me, I'd stick with no EQ and just shelve the bass down a touch with the bass control.
LL

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post #14 of 417 Old 06-13-2006, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post


Should I manually set the Subwoofer to "LFE+Main" before running the Audyssey algo, or should I set it after?


Set it manually before running Audyssey and it should remember the setting. Did on my A1XV (5805).
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post #15 of 417 Old 06-13-2006, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Dennis, I want to stress that my room is fairly well treated, so I didnt expect Audyssey to do much there. That being said, the frequency response difference between the two is probably not noticable by ear (they are both ~+/- 3dB) , and the Audyssey EQ may well be doing some beneficial correction in the time domain, as well as smoothing out other seats with poorer response.

I have the bass-only graphs and I will post them tonight also.

Andy K.
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post #16 of 417 Old 06-14-2006, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I have better news to report this time around. I must have done something funny with the "LFE" vs. "LFE+Main" setting before, because I'm getting better results now.

Now there is clearly no roll off in the bass. However, I still wouldnt say the bass is particularly 'flat'. One good piece of news is that, although you cant manually tweak the EQ and keep Audyssey processing on, you can adjust the level of the subwoofer without disabling Audyssey processing. This could be used to increase the bass level back somewhat.

The rest of the frequency response, this time, is significantly worse. This time I found quite a bit more variance each time I ran the algorithm, moreso that the other night. I cant quite explain it. I think overall it might not be a bad idea to double-check what the EQ is doing, in case you got a bad run for some reason.


I am attaching full range, LF-only, and LF waterfall plots of the before and after. (Please ignore the resonances at 60Hz and 120Hz in the waterfall plots. When I do measurements using ETF, my PC introduces a slight ground loop on the analog input which results in these tails). Also note the 'before' graph includes my existing Parametric EQs on the mains this time, which are tuned to reduce peaks at 90Hz and 60Hz. I disabled these EQs for the Audyssey processing.

This time the after sound was good enough to do listening tests. Overall, I would say the effects of the Audyssey EQ helped bring out more detail, but the sound was a little more lifeless and and a little less musical. I personally prefered the sound without the EQ.

You can see, for some reason, the Audyssey EQ continues to want to emphasize the 200Hz region. I wonder if this is part of the Audyssey target curve?

Andy K.
LL
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post #17 of 417 Old 06-14-2006, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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After results:
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post #18 of 417 Old 06-14-2006, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

Well, I have better news to report this time around. I must have done something funny with the "LFE" vs. "LFE+Main" setting before, because I'm getting better results now.

Now there is clearly no roll off in the bass. However, I still wouldnt say the bass is particularly 'flat'. One good piece of news is that, although you cant manually tweak the EQ and keep Audyssey processing on, you can adjust the level of the subwoofer without disabling Audyssey processing. This could be used to increase the bass level back somewhat.

The rest of the frequency response, this time, is significantly worse. This time I found quite a bit more variance each time I ran the algorithm, moreso that the other night. I cant quite explain it. I think overall it might not be a bad idea to double-check what the EQ is doing, in case you got a bad run for some reason.


I am attaching full range, LF-only, and LF waterfall plots of the before and after. (Please ignore the resonances at 60Hz and 120Hz in the waterfall plots. When I do measurements using ETF, my PC introduces a slight ground loop on the analog input which results in these tails). Also note the 'before' graph includes my existing Parametric EQs on the mains this time, which are tuned to reduce peaks at 90Hz and 60Hz. I disabled these EQs for the Audyssey processing.

This time the after sound was good enough to do listening tests. Overall, I would say the effects of the Audyssey EQ helped bring out more detail, but the sound was a little more lifeless and and a little less musical. I personally prefered the sound without the EQ.

You can see, for some reason, the Audyssey EQ continues to want to emphasize the 200Hz region. I wonder if this is part of the Audyssey target curve?

Andy K.

Your listening impressions are pretty much the same as mine, EQ off sounds better. In my case Audyssey wants to roll off not only the low frequencies but the high frequencies as well. Just sucks the life out of the sound
But I think this may be speaker dependent. I've heard Audyssey on other speaker systems and it sounded terrific. Same room, same electronics.... go figure.

dc

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post #19 of 417 Old 06-14-2006, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

First, regarding the "Large" vs "Small" issue. This is purely a matter of definition. In the Denon receivers (following the spec set by Tom Holman for THX--note Tom is an Audyssey co-founder) a speaker is called "Large" if it can reproduce frequencies below 80 Hz. You can argue with this, but it happens to a matter of definition.

-------------------------------

Hi Andy,

Your notion of what Large and Small should mean is correct, but unfortunately that is not the industry definition (80 Hz is used instead) used in most receivers and pre-pros.

The simplest way to think of it is: Large will not be bass managed and Small will.

I 100% agree with the last definition. It's the one Dolby and THX have been using since the days of Pro Logic. So the question is not at what frequency the bass management occurs, as that has always been a matter of choice in most AVRs, while indeed THX confined it to 80 Hz. When Grimani and I set up the bass management parameters for AV decoders (he was at THX at the time, I was at Dolby--and still am), we made sure that Dolby and THX shared at least the 80 Hz frequency so we would not have any conflict in design specs.

The question is only whether or not bass management is being applied. Bass management cannot happen at any frequency unless the speaker is set for small, just as Chris stated in his last definition.

I've never heard anyone define Large as a speaker that goes below 80 Hz. That is a necessasry, but insufficient criterion. In order to justify Large for any main speaker, it needs to reach down roughly as deep as the sub's rolloff point, or say 25 Hz, whichever is higher. A speaker that poops out at 60 Hz, being set to Large, would throw away a whole octave of useful bass. Now that's a Yikes!

Now, to bore y'all with my own first-time experience. I found the same size problem with my new Denon 2807. I set the sub to LFE+Main, set all the speakers to small (I assure you, they are), enjoyed the system for a few days with no EQ, just to get a feel for all the new gear in the new room, then decided it was time for Audissey. First it insisted I had polarity problems--so it would not complete the sweeps. But of course I don't have polarity problems, and then it dropped that issue after restarting the test several times (did it get tired, or did I just get lucky?) and finished the sweeps. I averaged three positions, and it reported all speakers as large. Final sound quality was not good--too bright. I copied the curve to Manual, made various EQ tweaks myself including setting all to Small, and now I'm tolerably satisfied. But in retrospect I might have been happier with a Yamaha AVR, since it lets you tweak the same parametrics it uses for YPAO tuning. The Denon graphics are only marginally useful, unfortunately, and Audissey isn't close enought to accurate to use it without further tweaks--in my system, of course.

The best thing Audissey did for me was tell me the sub was acoustically further away than the physical location of the box, and in so doing, really helped integrate it better with the mains.

I'm not throwing in the towel on Audissey yet. I'll try doing some additional runs with different mic locations, as maybe the angle was not optimal, thus forcing more HF boost than ought to have been needed.

[[Edited out erroneous thoughts on "LFE+Mains" and added more about it in a later post.--Roger]]

Great thread!

Roger

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post #20 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Roger,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I copied the curve to Manual, made various EQ tweaks myself including setting all to Small, and now I'm tolerably satisfied.

Keep in mind you have disabled the Audyssey processing in this case (confirmed by Chris above).

I'm not sure what the "copy the Flat base curve" command really means - does the receiver try to approximate the Audyssey curve with the graphic equalizer?

Andy K.
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post #21 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

Hi Roger,

Keep in mind you have disabled the Audyssey processing in this case (confirmed by Chris above).

I'm not sure what the "copy the Flat base curve" command really means - does the receiver try to approximate the Audyssey curve with the graphic equalizer?

Andy K.

Yes, exactly.

And I did the same thing as Roger did with his 2807, as my 3806 bass was cut down to very low level. It's obviously not as good as Audyssey FIR processing for mid/treble, but starting from the copied setting, I could get a enjoyable result.

Well I should note that I still miss the smooth and natural mid/high with MultEQ XT on. I wish I could add manual EQ correction on top of MultEQ.

In my room, having 2 fronts with a 10" professional woofer in each, no subwoofer in 11' x 12' room caused wildly bumpy response, which Audyssey EQ probably couldn't resolve and correct enough. Audyssey EQ lifted a little bit of the extreme low-end, and cut out quite a bit of bass around 40 ~ 100Hz. I am hoping that the bass response of the bigger room is less fluctuating, and I can get much better result when I am able to move my system to a bigger room.
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post #22 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 09:30 AM
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I think I have finally figured out how Audyssey is implemented on the 3806, I would like to post my "new" understanding below, and let me know if I am on the money finally.

After running auto setup/room EQ one can check the results of the auto setup using the menu shown below (pg 12 of the manual):

Speaker Config
Distance
Channel Level
Crossover Freq

While viewing the results one can make no changes. When prompted one stores the results of the auto setup (yes /no". (pg 13). In this case I choose to store them.

Step two:

Audyssey has set all my speakers to large and I want to change them to small.

So now I "back out" of auto setup/room EQ to the main System Setup Menu. I then choose Speaker Setup (pg 75). The Speaker Setup menu provides the following choices:

Speaker Config
Subwoofer setup
Distance
Channel Level
Crossover
Surround sp setup

Using the above choices the user makes any changes he/she desires (in my case setting my speakers to small) and these changes will override those made during the Audyssey auto setup.

The thing I got a little hung up on is if one were to go back to the auto setup/room EQ menu and check the results of the auto setup, the results will be the same as before and not reflect the manual changes. The manual modifications made during Speaker Setup however, will override Audyssey on those specific changes regardless, correct?

At this point the user may select the Audyssey room EQ,(pg 30 "Room EQ function") the room eq light goes red to indicate using a modified Audyssey setup and life is beautiful.

Have I got an accurate understanding finally?

Regards, Nick
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post #23 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 10:59 AM
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That's as I understand it as well Nick.
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post #24 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Nick, the problem is if you change the speakers from "Large" to "Small", this will cause the receiver to roll the speakers off at 80Hz, *regardless* of what the crossover point is for the subwoofer. Chris has stated this is the definition of Large vs. Small in the receiver.

For example, if Audyssey determines your speakers are Large and the sub is crossed over at 40Hz, if you change the speakers to Small you will get very little output between 40Hz and 80Hz.

If you then decide to change the crossover point to 80Hz, either this will a)completely disable the Audyssey algorithm, or b)maintain the algorithm but its not being properly EQed between 40Hz and 80Hz. I suspect it would simply disable the algorithm - you can prove this by seeing if the red/green "EQ-enabled" light is lit up or not. Either way is not correct though. It certainly wont take the eq from 40Hz-80Hz that was on the mains(which were outputting these frequencies) and apply it now to the subwoofer.

Andy K.
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post #25 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 11:29 AM
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Hello All,

I've been following this thread and conclude that the Audessey is confusing to setup correctly.

What is the final conclusion on what the setup should be if the auto room correction is not to your liking? Modified the audessey setup and lose the audessey eq or do manually?

I'm like Nick, I would like to change my speakers from large to small and when I go back and verify the audessey settings, it didn't show the changed.
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post #26 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 11:44 AM
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I have yet to have a satellite or in-wall speaker setup show up as small on the Audyssey setups. Every now and then the center does. These satellite speakers can produce 80 hz, but they are rolling off so quickly below that. I brought this up to a Denon rep and the only real response I received was that the Audyssey was taking care of it in the best way and to let it handle it.
It would be great to have a reference in how Audyssey works and the absolute best ways to implement it w/ these Denon units, b/c small satellites set to large and a full range sub does not mesh with prior experience.
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post #27 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 12:01 PM
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"if you change the speakers from "Large" to "Small", this will cause the receiver to roll the speakers off at 80Hz, *regardless* of what the crossover point is for the subwoofer."

If they're set to small, can't you pick any of several XO freq?

Noah
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post #28 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 12:12 PM
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Thanks for the report, Roger. Since you have access to test gear (big grin, huge understatement ) maybe you could confirm what the bass management is doing when you select LFE+Main with Audyssey engaged.

Chris says it will apply a highpass filter to mains set to large and redirect the lows to the sub. The frequency of the mains' highpass and the sub's lowpass will be whatever Audyssey determined to be optimum and not (necessarily) 80Hz. So, in effect, it treats the mains as small speakers even though they are set to large. As you say, this is a strange way to do things if it's true. It would be nice to know for sure.

Dennis H
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post #29 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"if you change the speakers from "Large" to "Small", this will cause the receiver to roll the speakers off at 80Hz, *regardless* of what the crossover point is for the subwoofer."

If they're set to small, can't you pick any of several XO freq?

Noah,

if I am interpretting things correctly, I see only three outcomes:

1)you can set them to small and keep the Audyssey XO. If this XO is not 80Hz, you will have a hole between that XO freq and 80Hz.

2)you can set them to small, and change the XO frequency, and the Audyssey EQ is now disabled.

3)you can set them to small, and change the XO frequency, and the Audyssey EQ is still enabled but it is confused because it is not applying Audyssey EQ to the subwoofer between the original XO frequency and 80Hz.

None of which is optimal. Best to leave it as it detected. I suppose one thing you could do is buy cheap Xmod high-pass filters and put them on your mains before running the algorithm!

Andy K.
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post #30 of 417 Old 06-15-2006, 12:58 PM
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3)you can set them to small, and change the XO frequency, and the Audyssey EQ is still enabled but it is confused because it is not applying Audyssey EQ to the subwoofer between the original XO frequency and 80Hz.

As I recall, (it's been a long time) Chris said you can do that and it works just fine. The catch is finding out what frequency Audyssey picked as optimum (if you care, I wouldn't.) I think you have to do the Large LFE+Main thing for that to show up in the menus.

Dennis H
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