Best Sounding Pre/Pros in Different Price Ranges (Mini Reviews and Discussion) - Page 153 - AVS Forum
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post #4561 of 4583 Old 05-25-2009, 08:16 PM
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If you do surround music, the issue might get more complicated, but my summary of the wisdom in this thread, then, would be a TADAC for two channel, bypassing the Onkyo completely. Use your Onkyo for movies.

There doesn't seem to be any views yet on the preDAC, so unless one assumes it's "just as good as" (or better than?) the TADAC, you're in the market for a discontinued piece of gear (the TADAC) as opposed to having listener reports about the preDAC.

Of course, the preDAC comes with a return policy/in home listening period, where you lose a re-stocking fee, but do have the option of returning it, if you are not satisfied.


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post #4562 of 4583 Old 05-25-2009, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

If you're suggesting my comments were rude, then I apologize because that's not my intent. I am calling him out on it though (as we've done in our own little love/hate way in the past) because I thought he was a little quick on the trigger, and the topic would have died a natural death anyways....which is exactly what I'm going to let happen....

It seemed like you and b&w700guy were trying to be a little confrontational(he more than you), but if you and Z have a sort of playful back and forth then I'm sorry for being dense and missing it. It just didn't seem that way to me at the time.

Now I'm thinking Z took it really personal because he's deleting his posts. Well Z, we all appreciated your input. I'm kinda wondering how long this thread will keep going now.
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post #4563 of 4583 Old 05-25-2009, 09:43 PM
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Yes, without the key first post, and later ones, we lose the key findings that, along with participation, drive the thread.

We're left with what Z's post looked like in March of this year:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou View Post

After having used 26 processors in the last 15 months I feel "somewhat" qualified to list these as the best sounding. My priority is music first but all do wonders for movies as well.

Class C


NuForce AVP 16 Surround Sound Processor (Used under $690)

Very musical and refined especially for the price. Everyone using any receiver as a pre/pro should audition this to see exactly what effect the receiver is having on your SQ. The difference is not small. This is a very musical and honest sounding piece. Hard to beat at anywhere near it's price.



Audio Refinement PRE-2DSP (Used price under $600)

A minimalist design that performs well above it's price point. Fantastic for music and very enveloping for movies. The analogue bypass is amongst the best available and only a slight high end sharpness and a small truncation in soundstage depth prevents it from scaling even greater heights. Is much better sounding than the Anthem AVM20. Very non intuitive setup.


Class B

Cary Cinema 6 (Used price under $1500)

Starting to get into diminishing returns in terms of ultimate sound quality. For music this performs extremely closely to a very good 2 channel only preamp. Music is dynamic, detailed and very neutral with a large and accurate soundstage. Movies sound superb with low level detail and voices being particularly well done. Has all the basics for a well rounded home theater and one would have to spend big money to top it. Errs slightly on the warm side.

Parasound C2 (Used price $2000)

I am not of one mind on this piece. On the one hand it is good looking with nice connectivity, tweakability and good sound but it lacks that hard to define quality that elevates it from a good unit to a great one. Music lacks that organic and fleshed out quality that helps one suspend disbelief. I find my mind wandering more than it should whilst listening to the C2. Music was slightly on the sterile side and soundstage depth while fairly deep lacked the ability to hear into the last row of players, you knew something was going on back there but couldn't quite make out exactly what it was. Cannot be considered a high end piece.
I hope I haven't come down too hard on the C2 as it is a good sounding pre and with it's auto setup it may be perfect for people who don't like to be hands on or who are upgrading from a receiver.

Krell Showcase (Used price low $2000s)

Testing continues but comfortable enough to give a provisional recommendation. Has flaws but does most things well. Rather the opposite of the Cary. Sound quality errs slightly on the side of brightness but doesn't cross the line where sibilance is increased. Is well fleshed out and sounds of one piece. It puts out the typical big and forward Krell house sound.
It sounds very similar to the HTS, the DACs and DSP are the same, but the HTS has a certain refinement, especially in the analogue inputs, that is slightly lacking in the Showcase.
If you prefer a bold and detailed sound with good soundstaging it may be perfect for you and is a good buy on the used market.

Class A

Proceed AVP2 (Used price under $2500)

Absolutely superb and well built piece with much trickle down technology from the $30,000 Levinson N0. 40. DACs and the 4 DSPs are essentially the same. This piece is a GREAT analogue preamp and close to the very best available, when you know how to set it for passthrough. As a "DAC" with it's differential L/R DACs and FIFO jitter reduction, it is as good as I have ever heard. The detail is amazing, yet it retains it's musicality, mids are free of any discernable colouration and the imaging and soundstage are beyond reproach. For movies, very secondary to me, it's extremely detailed and very enveloping. This is great kit and untouchable for the money or many times it's cost. The best choice for movies and music. Nothing as of March 2009 can come close.

NAD M15 Master Series (Used about $1500)

I got off on the wrong foot with this unit as the first one I had was clearly not performing as it should have. It was dark, lacking detail and uninvolving. It managed to stick in my head as every once in a while I'd wonder how a piece with such good components and sensible circuit design could have sounded so badly. I therefore in the last month picked up 2 more examples and I am happy to report that this is excellent kit and ever, EVER so close to being state of the art and in some areas it is the best I have heard.
As a DAC music is exceptionally neutral with excellent detail, a properly sized soundstage with excellent depth and the ability to hear as far back into the recording as the source and media allow. Bass is well controlled and very extended, the mids, voices in particular, allow subtle inflections through that lesser DACs simply miss which allows a much more emotional connection to be made to the music. Highs are exceptional with proper fundamentals and decay. If the recording allows you will hear the side and rear walls of the venue or studio.
Movies sound fine as near as I can tell with excellent envelopment and no decoding quirks. Again movies are very secondary to me but if it reproduces music properly it will get the most out of movies.

As an analogue preamp it performs well above it's price point. With the truly amazing TADAC, digital sounds about at as good as digital can sound.

I am glad I revisited this piece as in terms of bang for the buck it gets no better than this unit. There's no automatic setup, no room correction just a very simple circuit using absolutely top notch parts everywhere it counts and the sound quality is reflective of this. If you're on a slightly lower budget you really give up nothing to the more expensive pieces with the M15. How they can sell it for $2995 is beyond me. If it had a "higher" end name on the front with the same build quality and parts used it would be triple the retail price.

Classe SSP-600 (Used Price about $4000)

The Classe is a gorgeous looking piece and an example to all other companies for making a nearly perfect unit in terms of ergonomics. Now good looks are a bonus but we are more concerned about sound and fortunately the Classe does not let us down.
It is marvelously detailed and yet very refined in the high end, decay on cymbals is just about perfect, depending on the recording of course. The mids are uncoloured mostly but with a possible SLIGHT nod towards warmth which adds an organic and believable quality to vocals. Bass is taut and well controlled but it doesn't quite plumb the depths like a very few others do. The soundstage is accurate and of the correct size. We can clearly hear into the last row and all wall reverb cues are present, just as we like it. A very low noise floor contributes to all of the above and allows subtle detail to pass through.
If looking in this price range an audition is definitely in order.

Krell HTS 7.1 Pre/Pro (Used price under $3500)

A great sounding pre/pro for those who need onboard processing. Is not up to the same level as the AVP2 or the Bel Canto but still a step up from most units although the Showcase comes very close.

Meridian 861 (Used price $4000- $10000)

Provisional recommendation as testing continues. If you are into endless processing options and can get by the A/D conversion you may have found nirvana with this piece but I suspect for most reading this thread it is not quite what you're looking for.

Arcam AV9 (Used Price $3000-$4000)

An excellent unit that does everything well. Music tends slightly to warmth which is what many people prefer but does slightly deviate from neutrality. Reliability and build quality is superb and there are regular firmware updates. An easy recommendation for people who want a set it and forget it experience with above average sound quality.

If music is a priority avoid all Anthem processors. They are bright, flat sounding and the antithesis of proper reproduction. Bryston are also not a particularly good choice the 1.7 and 2 are not good sounding processors. The analogue sections are flat and grainy sounding and as a DAC they are very much lacking.

Price wise my opinion is the Proceed is by far the best buy as it can be found for under $2500 and sound and build quality are beyond reproach. My feelings right now are leaning me towards lowering the Krell's rating but I am waiting for another unit to come in to be sure.
Other than lack of analogue passthrough the Meridian is rather a wonderful piece. I do not like units that do A/D processing but it's by far the best I have heard in this particular area.

Had a chance over the weekend to re-audition the AR and it simply is a great sounding piece for the money. It's quirky and really hands on but it gets the fundamentals right in a way no other cheap unit does.

Please note that music is the priority for me, if it does music well then movies will be that much more detailed and enveloping. We watch 6 or 7 movies a week but I tend to focus on the movie rather than the sound as I find at times that rather than involving me more in the movie SS can sometimes take me OUT of the film as the sound becomes almost too obvious. We are not fans of action movies at all and I don't think I've seen a movie that could be classified as such in 20 years. Music taste tends to run from master tapes that I've recorded, mainly small classical ensembles recorded in churches or halls to folk, classical and light rock. I am very partial to female vocals such as Kate, Joni and Sally Oldfield. Favourite artists include Al Stewart, Gordon Lightfoot and Paul Simon. Luckily the vast majority of the aforementioned tend to have very well recorded catalogues. All pre/pros are extensively auditioned in both our two channel system, which can be considered state of the art, and our surround system which while not quite climbing the lofty heights of the stereo only rig is within percentage points of as good as it gets. Basically if it's well recorded, has a great melody and acoustic guitar I am there.
Initial testing can be done very quickly after a piece has been run in using recordings I have become intimately familiar with over the last 30 years but these initial impressions are just that and can change as a piece lives with us. Funnily enough though initial impressions do tend to be right. I will not comment on a piece unless I've had it in the systems for at least 100 hours as it takes that time or longer to become familiar with the nuances of the gear. There are exceptions such as a Pioneer 84 (bunch of letters) that a friend brought over for my impression. It lasted all of 15 minutes as it was perhaps the ugliest, flattest, most uninvolving piece I had heard in years. If a cello sounds like a cat scratching a pole then we can surmise that it's "probably" not overly good for music.

I love vinyl and much as I thought back in 1982 I think Redbook is inherently flawed but I am amazed at how it's evolved over the years to the point where once in a while it sounds damned good. I never would have believed it could get this far when I first heard it. I still believe that once it's digitized the damage is done but the "damage" can be minimal these days. My master tapes are all extremely high quality analogue but using various noise shaping techniques I can get down to 16/44.1 if I need to with very minimal loss, however I do try to keep digital at 24/96. My take on cabling is that the markup keeps many high end stores in business, NOT a bad thing, but if you are hearing a large difference between good 12 or 14 gauge cable and boutique cables then one of them is acting as a tone control and altering the sound. Minimizing vibration, room treatments and proper speaker setup will give you a vastly improved sound compared to that $3000 speaker cable you had your eye on.

This has been a 6 year mission to see if I could get one rig that does two channel as well as surround to a high enough degree that I would be happy. You may have noticed however that I still have a 2 channel rig as well as the surround setup. The SS rig is very, very VERY close to the stereo setup but you know it's still not quite there so the quest will continue.

In the end only the music matters. Those rare occasions when Janis Ian is "Breaking Silence" in my room, when a shaded dog instantly transfers me back to a concert hall in the 50s, When Paul, with just an acoustic guitar, is moved from Abbey Road Studios into my listening room or when my wife says she just got shivers and damn things sound good. That's the magic we all aspire to and when it happens it's almost a mystical experience.

Happy listening everyone.

and some details about what he didn't like enough to make the top performers list, like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou View Post


The Arcam was a big disappointment after I had been somewhat impressed with the 300. The 700 was veiled and lacking in detail both low level and in the high end. I had high hopes for it but consistently in blind testing it finished bear the bottom of the pack. I am a huge fan of Arcam in general but to me, maybe not to anyone else, it was decidingly lacking for musical reproduction.
It was never offensive, produced a decent sized soundstage although the rear corners were somewhat triangular, but it just didn't have that "they could be performing in my living room factor".

The Anthem has a lot going for it in terms of sheer settings and tweakability and that has assured it a strong place in the market. It is well constructed and very well supported. While in the middle of testing there was a firmware upgrade made available and surprisingly it had a major impact on the sound quality.
With 2.16 of the firmware this was a very neutral and uncoloured pre. I marvelled at the sound quality they were able to get out of what are rather cheap DACs.
The analogue circuit is extremely good and seems to me to be the key to the SQ.
Voices while lacking in warmth and the conveyance that they were coming from a human body was unfailingly clear and very transparent.
Bass was taut and well defined and the highs. while slightly prominent, were well portrayed with no electronic glare or haze. The soundstage was of a decent size and well layered. In short a very decent piece for the going used rate of around $1500.
With version 2.21 of the firmware however all that changed. It crossed the line from neutral/bright into very bright and was virtually unlistenable in our two systems. To confirm my findings I picked up another AVM20 and it was exactly the same. Sibilance became a major problem in both our systems and two others we tried it in. Holly Cole, always a great test for a sibilance factor crossed the line from her natural sibilance, due to her voice and mic technique she uses, into a sea awash with Ssssssssssssssses. Clearly something had gone awry and it was confirmed as I said on two units and three different systems. With 2.16 this is a solid if unspectacular choice and would probably satisfy a lot of users.

The Sherwood uses good DACs and a well executed ADC, is well constructed, has some useability quirks and is a fair performing cheaper pre/pro. While it did nothing overtly offensive, which is a GOOD thing in a preamp, neither did it do anything particularly well.
Music wasn't bright, electronic sounding or offensive in any way but it also lacked the ability to pull me into the music. We all want that magic listening session that gets extended into hours as we pull out album after album and CD after CD and the Sherwood never evoked that response in me. I'd find my mind wandering and not feeling the emotion from whetever piece we were auditioning.
In it's price category the Refinement was better for music in every way.
The Sherwood has nice setup options, is a fine looking piece but to us was boring and quickly was sold.

The Sunfires are both very nice pieces. Not being a huge Carver fan I was somewhat surprised. Music was well reproduced and it had no glaring faults. There were some sins of omission but those are very acceptable in a pre. Nice setup options, movies and music sounded good and I probably could have temporarily lived with it had I not purchased the Cary which was better and more organic in every way.
The Cary does pull you into the music, your foot taps, you find yourself listening for the rear most row of musicians and you can easily hear the walls of the venue.
In the mid range of pre/pros nothing we heard came close to the Cinema 6. It does have some very annoying quirks in terms of setup and useability but when it sounds so damned good you quickly forget about that.
The more a processor tries to do the more opportunity there is for things to go wrong. Drop the tuners, drop the video switching and keep things to a minimalist level with short signal paths, good DACs and OPamps and PAY ATTENTION TO THE ANALOGUE section and you should have a very good sounding piece.
All the above pieces were fine with movies and lossy formats like DD and DTS. In my opinion if it does music well then movies will sound just that little bit better.

The amp was always the same for testing, Krell TAS, but all pre/pros were also used with a Sunfire Signature and an EVO6 and the speakers are Magnepan 3.6R, 1.6R and CC3. If you like sound lacking in detail that's fine as we all have different priorities, however it is not accurate. My findings are also correlated by UAV. The AVP700 was tested extensively and it's shortcomings were very obvious. It was most apparent in low level detail where instruments low in the mix simply disappeared. A great example is Al Stewart's "Flying Sorcery" which has some very subtle keyboard sweetening on the second verse and it simply disappeared using the Arcam. Holly Cole's natural sibilance was diminished to the point where it was almost non existent as well. Again not accurate.

UAV said this about the 700 but to be fair I found the dynamics to be only slightly compromised so disagree with Shane on that finding.

To get a fix on how it stacks up in pure sonics I began by shuttling the AVP700 into my system with my reference amps- Theta Citadel monoblocks with a Theta Dreadnaught for center and surrounds. In my system the AVP700 produced sound that was spacious and refined, if a bit lacking in detail in comparison to my memory of the Arcam flagship, the FMJ AV8.

In years past this reticence could have been regarded as a savior for a controller with no simple Re-EQ. But as I explained earlier, I find fewer and fewer bright soundtracks. In this case, I felt like I simply wasn't getting as much detail out of the best soundtracks, like Star Wars Episode III...



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post #4564 of 4583 Old 05-25-2009, 10:10 PM
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Z, I would never have the time, money, or availability of equipment to do what you have done in this thread. Deleting posts over a brief disagreement with a couple of people when maybe dozens or hundreds read and contribute nicely seems, well, a bit over the top. Anyway, thanks for what you have contributed, even if it's gone now. Life carries on.
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post #4565 of 4583 Old 05-25-2009, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmryan821 View Post

Now I'm thinking Z took it really personal because he's deleting his posts.


Wow, Z deleted his post #1.

It'll be interesting to see if he spends several hours deleting the rest of his many posts in this thread.

A good reason to have page counts at 60, and to save *all* of the pages of an interesting thread.

Cheers

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post #4566 of 4583 Old 05-25-2009, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

Yes, without the key first post, we lose the key findings that, along with participation, drive the thread.

For what it's worth, I just looked at the list Sunday and I'm almost certain his list went like this:

Class A
1) Proceed AVP2
2) NAD M15
3) Classe SSP-600
4) Krell HTS 7.1
5) Meridian 861
6) Arcam AV9

Class B
1) Cary Cinema 6
2) Parasound C2
3) Krell Showcase

Class C
1) Nuforce AVP-16
2) Audio Refinement PRE-2DSP

I may have the two Krell units mixed up but the rest of the list I'd bet money is correct, but I have no clue what his comments were about each.
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post #4567 of 4583 Old 05-25-2009, 10:27 PM
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Z

Please come back. Ignore the anklebiters.

Thanks

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post #4568 of 4583 Old 05-25-2009, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmryan821 View Post

For what it's worth, I just looked at the list Sunday and I'm almost certain his list went like this:

Class A
1) Proceed AVP2
2) NAD M15
3) Classe SSP-600
4) Krell HTS 7.1
5) Meridian 861
6) Arcam AV9

Class B
1) Cary Cinema 6
2) Parasound C2
3) Krell Showcase

Class C
1) Nuforce AVP-16
2) Audio Refinement PRE-2DSP

I may have the two Krell units mixed up but the rest of the list I'd bet money is correct, but I have no clue what his comments were about each.


Good memory. I realized I had a copy from a couple months ago, when I was talking with a friend about the TADAC, so I've added that as an example.


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post #4569 of 4583 Old 05-25-2009, 10:54 PM
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I only wonder what pushed Z to abandon, and excise this remarkable thread. I also, fervently hope that whoever is responsible realizes what an unforgiveable thing they have done here.


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post #4570 of 4583 Old 05-25-2009, 11:37 PM
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Calling into question some anonymous person who pompously, condescendingly pontificates on subjectively miniscule differences that are not repeatable outside of his reference system (or his own mind) is certainly "unforgivable."

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That's not a very accurate statement. This thread has inspired a great many readers to think outside the "box" filled with too many circuits and processing options, and find high quality used items that perform exceedingly well for two channel music.

If you read this thread, you would see how many have benefitted from his approach, without necessarily buying into all his opinions.

Thanks a lot to all you who ruined it. You know who you are.

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post #4572 of 4583 Old 05-26-2009, 02:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonhawk View Post

If you read this thread, you would see how many have benefitted from his approach, without necessarily buying into all his opinions.

Thanks a lot to all you who ruined it. You know who you are.

I don't think there is any reason why the thread can't continue. The main thing Z offered is that he is one of those rare people in this hobby that has the time and inclination to try out so many different pieces of equipment. I remember how highly he spoke of his Andra 2's and then a few months later I saw his set on agon because he wanted to try something new. Even though he won't be sharing his opinion there are lots of guys that have used/are using some great equipment including Z's reference list. So I'm quite confident we can continue the discussion and I hope that no feels the need to leave because Z will no longer be sharing his opinion.

As an aside, I really don't understand the desire of Z to remove his reference list. I can't decide if it's an attempt to punish everyone else or to completely remove himself in every way from the discussion.
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post #4573 of 4583 Old 05-26-2009, 04:03 AM
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I regret that a fine person was run off from yet another thread and hope that he'll rethink his decision and return things to how they were a few days ago.

Its time for the silent majority to be heard. If you agree, speak up!!!

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post #4574 of 4583 Old 05-26-2009, 05:38 AM
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Many Thanks Zissou for all the hard work you've done. Sorry to see it end like this. Your reasons are your own but I respect your decision and apply no ulterior motives to it other than a desire to remove yourself from this discussion. The topic may well have run its course anyway.

Aside from a few chowderhead postings, I thought this was the single best thread topic on this board.




My life is an open book...wish I could read it and have it make sense.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Wow, Z deleted his post #1.

It'll be interesting to see if he spends several hours deleting the rest of his many posts in this thread.

A good reason to have page counts at 60, and to save *all* of the pages of an interesting thread.

Cheers

I guess I see Z's point of view but deleting the first post is a bit odd..
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post #4576 of 4583 Old 05-26-2009, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou View Post

It's simple, if you don't like the rules then post elsewhere where you can let your inner child run free. People have tried to derail this thread before and it won't be tolerated so if you feel unjustly treated there are lots of other threads you can play in.

C'mon Z, don't backout because of one idiot with an argumentative agenda. If you kill it because you're just tired of everyone asking for your opinion, who knows what kind of PM's you get, that would be understandable. My hope is that you pulled down page one for a major update, new rankings, rules in bold red lettering, etc. Still looking forward to yours and other reviews of the PreDac. Either way, thanks for sharing your experiences.
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Originally Posted by rweeb View Post

C'mon Z, don't backout because of one idiot with an argumentative agenda. If you kill it because you’re just tired of everyone asking for your opinion, who knows what kind of PM's you get, that would be understandable. My hope is that you pulled down page one for a major update, new rankings, rules in bold red lettering, etc. Still looking forward to yours and other reviews of the PreDac. Either way, thanks for sharing your experiences.

That would certainly be my hope as well. Z doesn't strike me as a 'take my ball and go home' kind of guy. But he could just be getting tired of it, who knows?




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post #4578 of 4583 Old 05-26-2009, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by cmryan821 View Post

It seemed like you and b&w700guy were trying to be a little confrontational(he more than you), but if you and Z have a sort of playful back and forth then I'm sorry for being dense and missing it. It just didn't seem that way to me at the time......

Please don't lump me and B&W700 into the same category. If he hadn't jumped in on top of my original post it would have been over at that. Z would have given me a one line sharp retort and we would have moved on.

The reality though is that in a public forum one has to have a thicker skin, it's just the way it is. The price for freedom of speech so to speak.

I've always had a tough time with that aspect of these forums. It's far too easy to get caught up in flame wars that serve no useful purpose, sometimes you just need to let things slide despite wanting to get involved, or be controlling. With the wisdom that Z professes to have, one would think he of all people would understand that.

If he is indeed "taking the ball and going home" then it is a sad occurrence. Hopefully he's just having a bad day.
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post #4579 of 4583 Old 05-26-2009, 08:33 AM
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Z, I am sorry to read about what has transpired over the last few days. I have always enjoyed both your posts and the many PM's we have shared. I just want to wish you a public THANK YOU for all of your efforts and opinions.
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post #4580 of 4583 Old 05-26-2009, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Please don't lump me and B&W700 into the same category. If he hadn't jumped in on top of my original post it would have been over at that. Z would have given me a one line sharp retort and we would have moved on.

Fair enough.

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The reality though is that in a public forum one has to have a thicker skin, it's just the way it is.

Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

If he is indeed "taking the ball and going home" then it is a sad occurrence. Hopefully he's just having a bad day.

Must have been a very bad day. Maybe he did just want to withdraw because of incessant questions about this or that like someone else suggested.
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post #4581 of 4583 Old 05-26-2009, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

If he is indeed "taking the ball and going home" then it is a sad occurrence.


Generally agreed.

Quote:


Hopefully he's just having a bad day.


I don't think so.

Z has been openly against any mention/discussion of digital room correction in this thread.

Given what's happened, I think that Z will lose respect if he returns to this thread. But I'm more than a little sorry that he was so thoughtless to delete his post#1, and I strongly suggest that he return that post.

Cheers

The best is the enemy of the good. Voltaire (1694-1778)

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post #4582 of 4583 Old 05-26-2009, 10:37 AM
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But I'm more than a little sorry that he was so thoughtless to delete his post#1, and I strongly suggest that he return that post.

It is too bad that this thread has taken the course it has but some members have made good points both ways. Thanks to Z the TADAC was talked about here and I am enjoying mine very much.

But to strongly suggest that Z return post #1 is a little over the top IMO. Some have said that no one owns a thread here on AVS as this is an open forum and I totally agree. But I feel the posts you make are yours and are yours to do with what you wish IMO. So if Z wants to delete the #1 post or all of his posts for whatever his reasons are is his right to do so.

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post #4583 of 4583 Old 05-26-2009, 10:43 AM
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lmao, what a joke...I guy creates a thread to post his subjective opinion on equipment.

Has disagreements in the past in the thread but goes bonkers on two respected members for posting something about Audyssey (It was ON TOPIC).

Deletes his post....cry baby!!!

Control freak indeed......the only child here is the guy running home with his toys. Seems all his flock is all worried about him leaving, can men have the balls to do more on their own? Can we just have some thicker skin if we are going to post online. If someone is going to be extremely subjective for 100s of pages then maybe they should be a little less emotional and controlling over it all.

For those who throw insults at B&W, I say say it to my or his face He called a spade a spade and I applaud that. NO one owns any thread, Z has no more right to this place than anyone of us.

I couldnt care about this miself...Im not one to follow anyone that isnt man enough to battle,the strongest will survive

Im going to stand with B&W on this!!

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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