5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 3041 Old 11-25-2006, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

Here's a helpful description of how DTS-HD might connect using HDMI or analog connections.

"How do I connect it?

"High Definition Player with DTS-HD Decoder to Current AV Receiver

"You can enjoy DTS-HD Master Audio and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio if you have a new Blu-ray Disc or HD-DVD player with a DTS-HD Audio decoder built into the player. The audio will be decoded inside the player and passed to the receiver in two different ways.

"HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 Connection

"In this scenario, the high definition player would output the audio as an uncompressed 6 to 8 channel linear PCM digital audio stream. You will need a player with a built-in DTS-HD Decoder, and both player and AV Receiver need to include HDMI version 1.1 or 1.2* outputs/inputs. HDMI stands for High Definition Multimedia Interface, and is a single-cable connection designed to accommodate digital multi channel audio and video. Simply connect the HDMI cable from the output of the player to the HDMI input of the AV Receiver. The DTS decoder inside the AV Receiver will "ignore" the Linear PCM stream and pass the audio stream on to your receiver's digital-to-analog converters and then on to the 5.1 or 7.1 amplifier. This way you can enjoy DTS-HD Master Audio that is a bit-for-bit identical to the studio master.
...

"6 to 8 Channel Analog Connection

"In this scenario, the high definition player will output DTS-HD Audio through the analog outputs of the player to your AV Receiver. The DTS-HD Master Audio or DTS-HD High Resolution will be decoded by the player and sent out as analog audio signals to the AV Receiver. You would Simply connect 6, 7, or 8 RCA cables from the analog outputs of the player to the analog inputs on your AV Receiver. The number of analog cables will be determined by the number of analog output/inputs on the player and receiver. The analog signals will go directly to the receiver's amplifier section. In this way you can enjoy DTS-HD Master Audio that is bit-for-bit identical to the studio master."

Link: http://www.dts.com/dts-hd/dtshd-mast...g-receiver.php

Dana

This sound great (again) for the people like me who has 7.1 analog input with ADC on their amplifier. However, there s still not even a rumor that there will be HD-DVD or BR players which supports DTS-HD (master) and TrueHD via the 7.1 analog output........
I m hoping that early 2007 Denon will launch a new line of player with this feature.
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post #272 of 3041 Old 11-25-2006, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

This sound great (again) for the people like me who has 7.1 analog input with ADC on their amplifier. However, there s still not even a rumor that there will be HD-DVD or BR players which supports DTS-HD (master) and TrueHD via the 7.1 analog output........
I m hoping that early 2007 Denon will launch a new line of player with this feature.

The Panasonic DMP-BD10 Blu-ray player has 7.1 analog outputs. Panasonic has announced that there will be free upgrades for DTS-HD and Dolby True HD for this player "when they are available" rumored to be early next year. These audio out terminals already support 7.1 ch LPCM.

Dana

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post #273 of 3041 Old 11-25-2006, 10:39 PM
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As I am looking for a new receiver with HDMI, I am stuck between the Denon 2307 and the Panny XR700. Both have the same retail price. The Denon seems to have a lot more functionality/features for the same price and is more widely available.

1. Is the digital vs. analog a reason? The Panny XR57 is digital and $400 cheaper..
2. do they sound equally good?
3. any big flaws with either model?

any advise/comments would be appreciated...
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post #274 of 3041 Old 11-26-2006, 02:59 AM
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Are the Panasonic XR57 and the JVC RX412b at the same level? Is one better then the other?
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post #275 of 3041 Old 11-26-2006, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cglauner View Post

As I am looking for a new receiver with HDMI, I am stuck between the Denon 2307 and the Panny XR700. Both have the same retail price. The Denon seems to have a lot more functionality/features for the same price and is more widely available.

1. Is the digital vs. analog a reason? The Panny XR57 is digital and $400 cheaper..
2. do they sound equally good?
3. any big flaws with either model?

any advise/comments would be appreciated...

There's a recent review of the Denon 2307 here http://reviews.cnet.com/Denon_AVR_23...-31987324.html

Dana

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post #276 of 3041 Old 11-26-2006, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

The Panasonic DMP-BD10 Blu-ray player has 7.1 analog outputs. Panasonic has announced that there will be free upgrades for DTS-HD and Dolby True HD for this player "when they are available" rumored to be early next year. These audio out terminals already support 7.1 ch LPCM.

Dana

and will this update also ensure the TrueHD and DTS-HD over the 7.1 analog output or only the HDMI output?
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post #277 of 3041 Old 11-26-2006, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

and will this update also ensure the TrueHD and DTS-HD over the 7.1 analog output or only the HDMI output?

I don't see why not. This update will enable the BD10 to convert the new codecs to 8 ch. LPCM for transport by either HDMI or its 7.1 analog outs. Panasonic has promoted the BD10's incorporation of a 192kHz/24bit D/A converter for each of the eight channels. It would make no sense to bypass them.

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post #278 of 3041 Old 11-26-2006, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cglauner View Post

As I am looking for a new receiver with HDMI...

any advise/comments would be appreciated...

The missing element in your question is what player is involved? As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, increasingly one needs to look at the capabilities of both players and receivers when evaluating future components. At the moment, I'd want to be sure that an AVR accepts 8 ch. LPCM via HDMI as input, not pass through. If the player doesn't upconvert standard DVDs via HDMI, then I'd want an AVR that does so. Which component will decode the new codecs? Will I have more than one component with HDMI and if so, perhaps the receiver will need to do the switching, etc. Analog connections?

It's not easy anticipating the future.

Dana

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post #279 of 3041 Old 11-26-2006, 08:15 AM
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I currently have the HD DVD A1 and I plan to get the PS3 as my BR player...

when you say "to be sure that an AVR accepts 8 ch. LPCM via HDMI as input", I thought both teh 2307 and the XR700 offer that... I am wrong?
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post #280 of 3041 Old 11-26-2006, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cglauner View Post

I currently have the HD DVD A1 and I plan to get the PS3 as my BR player...

when you say "to be sure that an AVR accepts 8 ch. LPCM via HDMI as input", I thought both teh 2307 and the XR700 offer that... I am wrong?

I was making a more general point that it behooves the consumer to know without a doubt - or buy on trial from a source with a liberal return policy - that the player/AVR combo gets the complete job done. I know for a fact that the XR700 accepts 8 ch. LPCM via HDMI; I am less familiar with the Denon.

But, your mention of using the PS 3 as your Blu-ray disc player raises warning flags. We have been discussing this player over on the XR700 thread here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...26#post8993926 not to criticize, but because as the first player with HDMI 1.3, it is a great example of how greater demands are going to be put on future receivers to perform functions that future players may not have.

Dana

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post #281 of 3041 Old 11-26-2006, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

I was making a more general point that it behooves the consumer to know without a doubt - or buy on trial from a source with a liberal return policy - that the player/AVR combo gets the complete job done. I know for a fact that the XR700 accepts 8 ch. LPCM via HDMI; I am less familiar with the Denon.

But, your mention of using the PS 3 as your Blu-ray disc player raises warning flags. We have been discussing this player over on the XR700 thread here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...26#post8993926 not to criticize, but because as the first player with HDMI 1.3, it is a great example of how greater demands are going to be put on future receivers to perform functions that future players may not have.

Dana




Amazing thread!


In my case, I'm using an HK 635 right now and I have a PS3 that will be my primary HD player for the forseeable future.

Clearly I'm going to need to upgrade to an HDMI receiver at some point to be able to enjoy the newer audio codecs.

Based off of reading this thread and chats in several others, I'm getting the idea I can be well off not waiting for an HDMI 1.3 receiver and I can go with an HDMI 1.2a receiver like either the Yammy 1700, 2700, some of the newer Denons if not all...what about HK? I think I read in the first post that the 645 or higher would cover my tracks? I also am keeping an eye on the new Panasonic receivers everyone is talking about.

I'm sticking with 5.1 for the forseeable future but I'd like to have the back door open to 6.1 and 7.1 down the road.

What am I missing?

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post #282 of 3041 Old 11-26-2006, 12:27 PM
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I can confirm Denon 4806CI (A11 XVA in Europe) fully functional with HDMI 1.1 and BR Panasonic.
I can have discrete pcm mch input through HDMI and Denon engages multiple crossovers, bass management, time alignment, DSP (THX & PLIIx) along with Audissey MultiEQ XT.
Wonderful.

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post #283 of 3041 Old 11-26-2006, 02:01 PM
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Dana,
Sorry if we're bugging you but you and Lindahl seem to be the go to guys. Since I use phones exclusively will I hear any benefit from a new HDMI 1.3 receiver that decodes the new lossless audio or will the phones output defeat or cancel it? In other words am I waiting for nothing and would be just as well off buying a yamaha RX-V1700 now? Bear in mind the phones output uses 'silent cinema' the yamaha version of dolby headphone. Hows that for a confusing question? Thanks again,
Belvista
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post #284 of 3041 Old 11-26-2006, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belvista View Post

Dana,
Sorry if we're bugging you but you and Lindahl seem to be the go to guys. Since I use phones exclusively will I hear any benefit from a new HDMI 1.3 receiver that decodes the new lossless audio or will the phones output defeat or cancel it? In other words am I waiting for nothing and would be just as well off buying a yamaha RX-V1700 now? Bear in mind the phones output uses 'silent cinema' the yamaha version of dolby headphone. Hows that for a confusing question? Thanks again,
Belvista

I don't think HDMI 1.3 will have any affect on headphone use. The significance of HDMI 1.3 is the potential to allow transfer of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio codec bitstreams to future AVRs for decoding rather than the high-def player doing it.

Dana

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post #285 of 3041 Old 11-26-2006, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

I don't think HDMI 1.3 will have any affect on headphone use. The significance of HDMI 1.3 is the potential to allow transfer of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio codec bitstreams to future AVRs for decoding rather than the high-def player doing it.

Dana

It might in the sense that Dolby might develop a new way to apply Dolby Headphone to it.

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post #286 of 3041 Old 11-27-2006, 04:38 AM
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My contribution to the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by belvista View Post

Re: using the PS3 as a BD player with a current generation HDMI receiver. Does the PS3 decode any of the new lossless audio formats?

It decodes TrueHD only. It doesn't do DTS HDMA. Maybe SCE will do an update on DTS HDMA.

It decodes DSD (for SACD) but not MLP (for DVD-Audio as it won't read the DVD-Audio section).

Quote:


Because if it doesn't, then I take it you will need an HDMI 1.3 receiver to do the decoding? Or am I missing something?

You only need 1.3 to pass through the DTS HDMA bitstream to a 1.3 receiver capable of decoding DTS HDMA. For other formats, 1.2 is fine. So far though I've not heard any receiver with DSD decoding capability via HDMI 1.2.


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post #287 of 3041 Old 11-27-2006, 05:52 AM
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Thank You very much good sir!! I've been telling my dad about us buying a new HDTV, but i realized we'll need a whole new reciever First things first.

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chances are you won't need a new receiver - your HDTV will work with any current receivers

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post #289 of 3041 Old 11-27-2006, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WriteSimple View Post

My contribution to the thread.

It decodes TrueHD only. It doesn't do DTS HDMA. Maybe SCE will do an update on DTS HDMA.

It decodes DSD (for SACD) but not MLP (for DVD-Audio as it won't read the DVD-Audio section).

You only need 1.3 to pass through the DTS HDMA bitstream to a 1.3 receiver capable of decoding DTS HDMA. For other formats, 1.2 is fine. So far though I've not heard any receiver with DSD decoding capability via HDMI 1.2.


fuad

Gee, I'm interested in knowing more about the PS 3 decoding Dolby TrueHD. I have two references citing Sony that indicate it does not decode it, but passes it along by bitstream thanks to HDMI 1.3 to a future AVR for decoding.

Dana

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post #290 of 3041 Old 11-27-2006, 08:44 AM
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Sticky time...

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post #291 of 3041 Old 11-27-2006, 09:28 AM
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Please correct the spelling in the title while you're at it

(Explanation)

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"HDMI 1.3
- Adds up to 8 (7.1) channels of post-HDMI Dolby and DTS formats (TrueHD, etc.)."

Also adds auto lip sync feature at least according to:
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles...i_versions.php

----------------------------------------------------
Lip Sync Feature of 1.3, how would be implemented?

There was a question recently by one of the Magazine readers interested to know if both pieces of equipment, the source and the receiving device, would need to be 1.3 capable in order for the "Lip Sync" feature to work. I contacted Leslie Chard, President of HDMI Licensing LLC, he had the courtesy to provide details as follows, and I quote:

"The 1.3 lip sync correction functionality is required on the device that creates the lip sync problem (typically a display - which has a latency between audio/video processing because of the more demanding requirements of video processing), and a device that can correct the lip sync delay (the initial implementations of this will be in a receiver, but in the future this functionality will be in DVD players, and most other CE devices.) The reports that we are getting from manufacturers indicate that this function is very popular and will be widely implemented."
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post #293 of 3041 Old 11-27-2006, 01:02 PM
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Oh dear. This is really TOO funny.

OK kids, lets think this through.

The Very Big Corporation of Japan is making a new display with HDMI V1.3. They know their display can produce severe lip sync problems because of its fancy new, brand name video processing (for which customers pay a premium).

But not to worry! Just pair up the display with the new receiver VBC, Japan, are ALSO producing and the lip sync problem magically goes away!

Uh, unless the display is hooked up to somebody else's receiver that only has HDMI V1.1 output. Or Component output. Man, our display looks really bad compared to the competition when fed that way.

Gee whiz, do we really want to limit sales of our displays to just those people who will ALSO buy one of our fancy new receivers? I mean sure we want both sales but why give up sales to other companies for folks who are only buying a display?

So OK you guys in engineering (say the bosses sternly), fix this dang lip sync problem IN THE DISPLAY ITSELF!

But wait, says marketing, that eliminates one of the reasons for people to toss their old stuff too soon and buy our new stuff featuring HDMI V1.3!

Not to worry, say the bosses. Just tell them they need it ANYWAY even though the problem doesn't really exist. They won't know the difference.
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post #294 of 3041 Old 11-27-2006, 01:31 PM
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As regards the first post int he thread --

Quote:


HDMI 1.1
- Provides up to 8 (7.1) channels of lossless uncompressed PCM audio.
- Provides all pre-HDMI Dolby and DTS formats (5.1/6.1).
- Provides DVD-Audio streaming as PCM.

HDMI 1.2
- Adds SACD streaming as proprietary DSD format.

HDMI 1.1. can also pass SACD that has been converted to 'hi rez' PCM (e.g., 88 khz,24 bit)
which is what the Oppo 960HD uni-player does.

Seems to me a 'future proof' receiver would have to do what some of the Denon's do: namely, be able apply all AVR digital and analog processing to the multichannel analog inputs.

It also has to correctly handle the LFE channel and bass summing of various multichannel format and speaker setups, which especially via digital connections is not always a given (see this thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147 )
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post #295 of 3041 Old 11-27-2006, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

As regards the first post int he thread --

HDMI 1.1. can also pass SACD that has been converted to 'hi rez' PCM (e.g., 88 khz,24 bit)
which is what the Oppo 960HD uni-player does.

...

You mean the Oppo DV-970HD. There is no Oppo 960.

Dana

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post #296 of 3041 Old 11-27-2006, 03:55 PM
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Thanks Lindahl for the info. If I read this correctly, if I want to get 7.1 uncompressed PCM audio, I need at least an HDMI 1.1 compliant receiver. However, as noted, not all HDMI 1.1 receivers accept 7.1 PCM audio through the HDMI port. So I'd need to make sure that the receiver could do that.

On top of that, to my knowledge there isn't any HDMI 1.3 compliant recievers out there right now that would be able to accept the Dolby True HD, or DTS-HD stream directly.

Are these both valid points? Did I miss anything in the post or the discussion that has followed?
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post #297 of 3041 Old 11-27-2006, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
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Sticky time...

Excellent Kyser. This thread is certainly deserving!
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post #298 of 3041 Old 11-27-2006, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eawil View Post

if I want to get 7.1 uncompressed PCM audio, I need at least an HDMI 1.1 compliant receiver. However, as noted, not all HDMI 1.1 receivers accept 7.1 PCM audio through the HDMI port. So I'd need to make sure that the receiver could do that.

Yes. HDMI v1.0 and later versions make it possible to transmit 8 channels of uncompressed PCM audio. Whether a particular manufacturer has implemented that feature on their HDMI-based receiver is an entirely separate issue. You have to check on a case by case basis.
Quote:


to my knowledge there isn't any HDMI 1.3 compliant recievers out there right now that would be able to accept the Dolby True HD, or DTS-HD stream directly.

Correct, there are none currently available. And even if a receiver could somehow be retrofitted or upgraded to HDMI 1.3, it couldn't do anything with a native TrueHD or DTS-HD bitstream because those decoders aren't built into any current receivers.

Sanjay

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post #299 of 3041 Old 11-27-2006, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vold View Post

wow

Indeed.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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