5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 100 - AVS Forum
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post #2971 of 3041 Old 06-23-2010, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

The FACT is! You refuse to accept the reality that you may indeed NOT get what you want. No matter how long you hold your breath, and not even if you hold it until your face turns blue.

Fact is I own a Pioneer SC-27. Very nice receiver that will last me for years, just like my Denon 4806CI did. Do I care about 3D? Nope! Would I like Pioneer to offer an upgrade just like H/K? Sure! Am I holding my breath? Nope! Fact: Do you have proof that it can't be done? NOPE!!
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post #2972 of 3041 Old 06-23-2010, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

Okay I'll chime in with absolutely no knowledge on the subject and say that...well...it sounds like possibly you both could be correct. But that it would depend on many different things. Is that a fair compromise?


No need to compromise. Don't really care what his answer, thoughts are. Just waiting for him to show me proof that it can't be done. But he can't :-(
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post #2973 of 3041 Old 06-23-2010, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin. W View Post

Just waiting for him to show me proof that it can't be done. But he can't :-(

As I asked you FIRST, when you first started your rant! Do YOU have proof it can be done? No, you have not proved it, you have no proof at all! What H/K says they are planing to do has no bearing on what any other manufacturer can do or has plans for. So THAT, is not proof of anything other that what H/K has plans for.
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post #2974 of 3041 Old 10-11-2010, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

Current HD-DVD and Blue-Ray Players
- Provides pre-HDMI and post-HDMI formats through analog outputs in lossless uncompressed PCM format.

Old topic, forgive me, I'm still learning. Can't make any sense of "PCM format through analog output" - in the very 1st message of this apparently good topic.

PCM is a digital format (uncompressed and lossless) that you can get from digital connectors such as HDMI, coaxial or optical.

Unless things have changed since 2006, the term "Analog Output" means analog signal or a connector with such a signal. On BD or DVD players it is usually an array of red and white RCA connectors (like those on sound speakers).

There is no PCM signal on designated analog connectors/outputs of DVD or BD
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post #2975 of 3041 Old 10-11-2010, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by almot09 View Post

Old topic, forgive me, I'm still learning. Can't make any sense of "PCM format through analog output" - in the very 1st message of this apparently good topic.

PCM is a digital format (uncompressed and lossless) that you can get from digital connectors such as HDMI, coaxial or optical.

Unless things have changed since 2006, the term "Analog Output" means analog signal or a connector with such a signal. On BD or DVD players it is usually an array of red and white RCA connectors (like those on sound speakers).

There is no PCM signal on designated analog connectors/outputs of DVD or BD


What he means is that you are getting an original lossless PCM signal converted to analog and output via the RCA jacks. Versus these alternatives

1) lossless PCM send digitally to the AVR, where it is converted to analog, and output to speakers
2) lossy bitstream Dolby Digital or DTS decoded to PCM in the player, and output by the player to AVR as analog via RCA jacks
3) lossy bitstream DD or DTS sent digitally to AVR and decoded to PCM, and output as analog to speakers
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post #2976 of 3041 Old 10-12-2010, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

What he means is that you are getting an original lossless PCM signal converted to analog and output via the RCA jacks. Versus these alternatives

1) lossless PCM send digitally to the AVR, where it is converted to analog, and output to speakers
2) ...

Yes. Analog jacks output analog (usually 2.0) sin wave, not PCM signal. More a semantics mater. The source disc could be PCM, but it is processed in the player DAC before being fed to analog output. I've got impression that player's DAC is usually inferior to the receiver's (unless it's really top-end player).
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post #2977 of 3041 Old 10-12-2010, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by almot09 View Post

Yes. Analog jacks output analog (usually 2.0) sin wave, not PCM signal. More a semantics mater.


More a pedantics matter. And a very silly one at that.


Quote:


The source disc could be PCM, but it is processed in the player DAC before being fed to analog output. I've got impression that player's DAC is usually inferior to the receiver's (unless it's really top-end player).

Audibly inferior, or on paper?
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post #2978 of 3041 Old 11-22-2010, 01:04 PM
 
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For the best foolproof gear, read the last (sticky) page of the thread "List of Digital Home Theater Receivers"

Forget analog, go inexpensive and superior all-digital!
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post #2979 of 3041 Old 12-28-2010, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post
5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explanation of the Future-Proof Receiver


Introduction:

With the recent introduction of high resolution sound provided from both Blue-Ray and HD-DVD players, a lot of people have been inquiring about buying a future-proof receiver [......] First things first, HDMI 1.3 is unnecessary for a receiver, a future-proof receiver with HDMI 1.1 is all you need.
Is it me, or does this sticky need to be revised?
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post #2980 of 3041 Old 12-28-2010, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooptytank View Post
Is it me, or does this sticky need to be revised?
heh, I think so. Heck, I thought I was future-proofing myself just by having HDMI on my receiver.
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post #2981 of 3041 Old 12-28-2010, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooptytank View Post


Is it me, or does this sticky need to be revised?

Yes. This thread is woefully out of date and should be un-stickied...

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post #2982 of 3041 Old 12-29-2010, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooptytank View Post

Is it me, or does this sticky need to be revised?

Why?
Only if you want to transfer DSD from Super Audio CDs or want to use CEC, you need HDMI 1.2a.
Anything (Edit: except ARC) added by HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 is not related to a "Future-Proof Receiver".

So: Keep your old, good sounding receiver and spend your money elsewhere.
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post #2983 of 3041 Old 02-09-2011, 05:43 AM
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If multichannel PCM was in HDMI 1.1, DSD was in 1.2, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD-Ma are in 1.3, why is it that some of the receivers bearing 1.3 designation don't support DSD? Do they all support PCM? Is there a bitrate limitation? Are these requirements of the spec or are they just prerequisites. Do vendors just choose to implement some of the features?
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post #2984 of 3041 Old 02-09-2011, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post
If multichannel PCM was in HDMI 1.1, DSD was in 1.2, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD-Ma are in 1.3, why is it that some of the receivers bearing 1.3 designation don't support DSD? Do they all support PCM? Is there a bitrate limitation? Are these requirements of the spec or are they just prerequisites. Do vendors just choose to implement some of the features?
I never got a chance to test my current receiver with a new HDMI DSD SACD player (SCD-XA5400ES). I'm unaware of a requirement that all 1.3 HDMI receivers must support DSD.

PCM and DSD are modulation types (source recording types)
Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are codecs (compression schemes; albeit lossless)

The receiver, bearing in mind it was doing the decoding, would needs it's own DSD DAC, I presume. So, a receiver that has 1.3 HDMI from a manufacturing standpoint would have meet the minimum standards of supporting PCM demodulation since that's what most players output.

I'm the only reason my old receiver was able to output the DSD source from my SACD player was because my outs were analog, thus bypassing a "missing" DSD DAC in the receiver.
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post #2985 of 3041 Old 02-09-2011, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post
If multichannel PCM was in HDMI 1.1, ...
Multichannel PCM (8 channel LPCM/192 kHz/24-bit audio) was already in version 1.0!
Quote:
... why is it that some of the receivers bearing 1.3 designation don't support DSD?
HDMI is the transport. If your receiver doesn't have a DSD decoder, it can't handle DSD. I quote from wikipedia:
Quote:
A product listed as having an HDMI version does not necessarily mean that it will have all of the features that are listed for that version, since some HDMI features are optional...
Quote:
Do they all support PCM?
Yes, but it depends on your receiver, how many channels of it.
Quote:
... Are these requirements of the spec or are they just prerequisites.
???
Would there be a difference?
Quote:
Do vendors just choose to implement some of the features?
Yes. See above.
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post #2986 of 3041 Old 02-09-2011, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_View View Post
I never got a chance to test my current receiver with a new HDMI DSD SACD player. I'm unaware of a requirement that all 1.3 HDMI receivers must support DSD.

PCM and DSD are modulation types
Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are (en)codecs (compression schemes; albeit lossless)

FWIW, multichannel (and sometimes 2 channel) DSD is also losslessly compressed on SACDs -- the codec is called DST. (This seems to be less well known than the fact that multichannel PCM is losslessly compressed on DVD-A using the MLP codec.)
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
FWIW, multichannel (and sometimes 2 channel) DSD is also losslessly compressed on SACDs -- the codec is called DST. (This seems to be less well known than the fact that multichannel PCM is losslessly compressed on DVD-A using the MLP codec.)
Yeah, I didn't list PCM and DSD as non-losses since I figured most would already know it was the pure unadulterated source.

But I'm less familiar with the codec DST. Does that mean we can stream the pure DSD, with proper source player and destination receiver, without DST being used (a choice)? Or are all DSD sources automatically use the DST codec implemented as a standard (to save bandwidth).

I know it wont sound any different. Just wondering since I wanted to make sure that DST wasn't hard-coded into the DSD standard format.

From what you said, it seems like the moment that all DSD sources are recorded they automatically get DST codec in order to "fit" it on the SACD disc.
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post #2988 of 3041 Old 02-09-2011, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post
FWIW, multichannel (and sometimes 2 channel) DSD is also losslessly compressed on SACDs -- the codec is called DST. (This seems to be less well known than the fact that multichannel PCM is losslessly compressed on DVD-A using the MLP codec.)
The reason I also asked is because in theory, a studio could record a movie in DSD (compress via DST), then release the movie on Blu-ray further compressed (also lossless) with Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA!

Of course, unless they wanted to release a DSD/DST only recording on Blu-ray (like some 5.1-7.1 PCM uncompressed Blu-rays currently on the market).
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post #2989 of 3041 Old 02-09-2011, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_View View Post
But I'm less familiar with the codec DST. Does that mean we can stream the pure DSD, with proper source player and destination receiver, without DST being used (a choice)? Or are all DSD sources automatically use the DST codec implemented as a standard (to save bandwidth).
Whether an SACD uses compression or not, it wll never be exposed to the consumer in compressed form, so no need for an AV processor to be aware of it.
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post #2990 of 3041 Old 02-09-2011, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Whether an SACD uses compression or not, it wll never be exposed to the consumer in compressed form, so no need for an AV processor to be aware of it.
Ok, thanks. It's transparent and only used on the back-end of source production. Good to know.
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post #2991 of 3041 Old 02-09-2011, 10:24 AM
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One of the reasons I posted my first question about HDMI versions and features implemented on the receivers, is this. I have a HK AVR 745. It is HDMI 1.1 but it only supports 1080i pass through. Even though it is a 7.2 channel receiver, it can do 5.1 PCM all the way to 24-bit/192kHz (even though I think the eDID only says 96kHz). So, when I hook up a gen 1 PS3 to it through HDMI and do a HDMI audio autosetup on PS3, the PS3 selects PCM 5.1 upto 96khz and none of the 7.1. I have enjoyed using the 745 and it is a solid receiver.

Last week, on a whim, I bought a NAD T747. It is supposed to be delivered today. This is a HDMI 1.3 receiver and they advertise that it does Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD-Ma. However, I am more interested in PCM capability since my gen1 PS3 internally decodes all lossless audio (including SACDs) to multi channel PCM. When I talked to NAD support they told me they do only 48kHz PCM. I hope that was incorrect and when I do a HDMI audio setup on PS3, it checks off higher sample rate options. It would be a bummer to lose higher sample rate PCM on a newer receiver when the 745 could do it. For example, my multichannel SACD tracks were output as 24-bit, 176.4kHz 5.1 PCM from my PS3 to the HK 745 and they sounded amazing. Well, I will know tonight how the T747 does.
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post #2992 of 3041 Old 02-09-2011, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_View View Post

Yeah, I didn't list PCM and DSD as non-losses since I figured most would already know it was the pure unadulterated source.

But I'm less familiar with the codec DST. Does that mean we can stream the pure DSD, with proper source player and destination receiver, without DST being used (a choice)? Or are all DSD sources automatically use the DST codec implemented as a standard (to save bandwidth).

I know it wont sound any different. Just wondering since I wanted to make sure that DST wasn't hard-coded into the DSD standard format.

From what you said, it seems like the moment that all DSD sources are recorded they automatically get DST codec in order to "fit" it on the SACD disc.


I said multichannel DSD is compressed, and 2channel may or may not be. That's the same situation as with PCM on DVD-A. It's due to space considerations.

I was never sure if DST-DSD (or MLP-PCM for that matter) streamed out of a transport to a compatible outboard DAC was decompressed first, but Roger Dressler's reply makes me think it always is.
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post #2993 of 3041 Old 03-02-2011, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Yes. This thread is woefully out of date and should be un-stickied...

I second the motion. I am forking 2 grand for the second time in 2 years because my 1.3 hdmi receiver will not transmit 3d and it is not firmware fixable. I bought the receiver first because I figured they were the most future proof component. How wrong I was. Now that 3d has arrived I have decided to get the rest of the theater and have discovered that there is no such thing as a future proof receiver.

Kill the sticky.

IMO the only future proof components are speakers.
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post #2994 of 3041 Old 03-03-2011, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Psolar View Post

IMO the only future proof components are speakers.

Strike that too.

Think about it like this. Class D amps being perfected and going down the cost curve. At the same time, "AV receivers" are basically preamps with cursory and ever-decreasing quality of amplification.

How long before the class D amps are being widely packaged an a single package with the full range loudspeaker and the "AV receiver" turned into a pure processor with just analog preamp outputs and no speaker jacks?
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post #2995 of 3041 Old 03-03-2011, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamede View Post

Strike that too.

Think about it like this. Class D amps being perfected and going down the cost curve. At the same time, "AV receivers" are basically preamps with cursory and ever-decreasing quality of amplification.

How long before the class D amps are being widely packaged an a single package with the full range loudspeaker and the "AV receiver" turned into a pure processor with just analog preamp outputs and no speaker jacks?

If you are using digital amps, why do you want analog outputs?

Take a look at what Meridian is doing (and has been doing for years) with their processors and DSP speakers. At the other end of the spectrum, see the new Aperion Intimus systems: http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/...57,84,788.aspx

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post #2996 of 3041 Old 03-08-2011, 03:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
If you are using digital amps, why do you want analog outputs?

Take a look at what Meridian is doing (and has been doing for years) with their processors and DSP speakers. At the other end of the spectrum, see the new Aperion Intimus systems: http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/...57,84,788.aspx
As and advertiser supported reviewer I can see your point of view.
However the gentle reader is advised that Meridian is extremely expensive - up to $250,000 per component.
The Aperion system is interesting, but the site is highly biased in not presenting the drawbacks. Each speaker requires an A/C power cord, which defeats most of the wireless philosophy. The 5GHz spectrum is subject to even shorter distances than 2GHz. Interference causing dropouts has to be an issue.
Consumers appear to be locked-in to this companies proprietary products.
The quality of the amplifiers in the speakers are not discussed. I'd guess they use the same Pulsus all-digital technology available in the $300 7.1 Samsung 700 all-digital receiver, which I strongly recommend.
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post #2997 of 3041 Old 03-08-2011, 04:10 PM
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First off, I offered them as examples in principle. It was not a specific recommendation.

Second, as for the remark about being an "advertiser supported reviewer," piss off. I have no concern about advertisements and choose what I want to review independently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

As and advertiser supported reviewer I can see your point of view.
However the gentle reader is advised that Meridian is extremely expensive - up to $250,000 per component.

Acknowledged.

Quote:


The Aperion system is interesting, but the site is highly biased in not presenting the drawbacks. Each speaker requires an A/C power cord, which defeats most of the wireless philosophy. The 5GHz spectrum is subject to even shorter distances than 2GHz. Interference causing dropouts has to be an issue. Consumers appear to be locked-in to this companies proprietary products. The quality of the amplifiers in the speakers are not discussed. I'd guess they use the same Pulsus all-digital technology available in the $300 7.1 Samsung 700 all-digital receiver, which I strongly recommend.

In fact, the Aperion system is based on the Summit Wireless technology which is being adopted by other manufacturers. Finally, all so-called wireless speakers require either batteries or an AC connection and purchasers should be aware of that.

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post #2998 of 3041 Old 03-12-2011, 05:57 PM
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ok please help me here

i just got yamaha advanteage 800 receiver to go along with 50 inch samsung
plasma i got a few months ago. ive had the blu ray player for about 6 months now.


do i need either 1.3 or 1.4 hdmi cables to get the lossless true dolby digital
and/or true dts sound when playing blu ray movies that have it? or are my
regular hdmi cables good enough for it to work? my new yam 800 rec is 7.1
or 7.2 with all the bells and whistles so i need to find this out for sure.


what else do i need to know about these new 1.3 and/or 1.4 hdmi cables?
i know 1.4 is 3d ready but i dont ever think i will go 3d.

please email me at ROSSINFL@HOTMAIL.COM if you can b/c i dont check here
much or forgot which thread i posted on lol

or pm me here or post a reply here and i should find it

i just love how blu ray looks on my 1080p samsung plasma 50 inch. i used to have
real old panasonic 47 inch proj hdtv that only did 1080i. it had no hdmi

thanks again
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post #2999 of 3041 Old 03-13-2011, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROSSINFLORIDA View Post

ok please help me here

i just got yamaha advanteage 800 receiver to go along with 50 inch samsung
plasma i got a few months ago. ive had the blu ray player for about 6 months now.


do i need either 1.3 or 1.4 hdmi cables to get the lossless true dolby digital
and/or true dts sound when playing blu ray movies that have it? or are my
regular hdmi cables good enough for it to work? my new yam 800 rec is 7.1
or 7.2 with all the bells and whistles so i need to find this out for sure.

what else do i need to know about these new 1.3 and/or 1.4 hdmi cables?
i know 1.4 is 3d ready but i dont ever think i will go 3d.

If you already have HDMI cables, try them. They should work.


Quote:
please email me at ROSSINFL@HOTMAIL.COM if you can b/c i dont check here
much or forgot which thread i posted on lol

or pm me here or post a reply here and i should find it

Here.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #3000 of 3041 Old 03-14-2011, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

One of the reasons I posted my first question about HDMI versions and features implemented on the receivers, is this. I have a HK AVR 745. It is HDMI 1.1 but it only supports 1080i pass through. Even though it is a 7.2 channel receiver, it can do 5.1 PCM all the way to 24-bit/192kHz (even though I think the eDID only says 96kHz). So, when I hook up a gen 1 PS3 to it through HDMI and do a HDMI audio autosetup on PS3, the PS3 selects PCM 5.1 upto 96khz and none of the 7.1. I have enjoyed using the 745 and it is a solid receiver.

Last week, on a whim, I bought a NAD T747. It is supposed to be delivered today. This is a HDMI 1.3 receiver and they advertise that it does Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD-Ma. However, I am more interested in PCM capability since my gen1 PS3 internally decodes all lossless audio (including SACDs) to multi channel PCM. When I talked to NAD support they told me they do only 48kHz PCM. I hope that was incorrect and when I do a HDMI audio setup on PS3, it checks off higher sample rate options. It would be a bummer to lose higher sample rate PCM on a newer receiver when the 745 could do it. For example, my multichannel SACD tracks were output as 24-bit, 176.4kHz 5.1 PCM from my PS3 to the HK 745 and they sounded amazing. Well, I will know tonight how the T747 does.

Bommai:
I have that exact same receiver (HK745 AVR) and it is awesome. Here is how I dealt with the 1080p and 1.3 conundrum. I have a 65" RPHDTV. So I routed all 4 HD sources into a Monoprice HDMI Matrix Switcher/Splitter (model HDX-402E). This is a great switch from Monoprice with tremendous reviews for $50-$70. What's neat is it has dual outputs A & B that work simuiltaneously and switches automatically. So I send the Panny Blu-Ray player, XBox 360, FIOS HD Box, and Toshiba A135 HD-DVD player directly into it. I send the HDMI HD signal directly to the HDTV via 1080P from output "A" on the switcher. I simultaneously send the same signal out to the HK 745 AVR via Output "B". I then loop an output signal back into a second HDMI input on the HDTV from the HK 745 in 1080i. The purpose of the HK 745 output is simply to send upconverted 1080i content to the HDTV from other video formats like Laser discs, SD-DVD, old XBox and the HK 745's setup/adjustment diagnostics. It works perfectly! There is zero audio sync lag from output A on the screen to output B in the AVR. The picture is in Full 1080p HD or any format I want. The sound from the HK is in its full 7.2 and glory. And the young'uns can listen to the whole thing through the HDTV without engaging the HK 745. Go on the Monoprice website and check it out. It is a highly recommended accessory that is also compatible with Harmony Remotes. That 745 is a great receiver. And there is no need to change it out because it doesn't do 1080p. It does everything else right. And the Mono switch solves the 1080p issue for 50 bucks.
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