5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 102 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #3031 of 3041 Old 03-05-2014, 11:42 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
batpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 24,316
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 578 Post(s)
Liked: 1223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farley1 View Post

As a new member trying to figure things out I will say that I was disappointed to find this thread as the sticky. Future-proofing...and the OP is so old. So I jumped to the last page to see what was currently being discussed, maybe see if there was a more recent informative post to go to instead of the OP...it seems not.

So is there such a thing as worrying about future-proofing an AVR today? If so, where do I go to read about that? 

Exactly the problem. The content in the first post is at least 5 years out of date at this point.

Pretty much EVERY receiver on the market now is "future proof" in the sense described in the first post, they can all handle any type of lossless audio format over HDMI including DTS-Master, Dolby TrueHD, multich PCM etc. Even if they don't support some exotic formats like DSD direct from SACD the player can always convert to Multich PCM; although multich analog inputs are somewhat of a rarity now, they are being obsoleted in current units by the multich PCM support (might as well send the hi rez muttich audio digitally and pretty much any player can do it where needed).

The only "future proof" concerns have to do with HDMI 2.0 and the support for newer video formats like 3D and now 4k.

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
Setup Guide and FAQ

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
batpig is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #3032 of 3041 Old 03-05-2014, 11:46 AM
Senior Member
 
Farley1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Georgia, United States
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 160

I think I figured out what I needed to by reading the various 'official' this/that/the other manufacturer threads, some of which are very very well done. 

 

I now have a Denon X1000 at the top of my list, at least for the moment.


Samsung PN60F5300, Sony PS3

Denon AVR-X1000

SVS PB-2000

Front-Center-Surround, Pioneer: FS52-C22-FS51

Farley1 is offline  
post #3033 of 3041 Old 03-14-2014, 04:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
blazar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 2,267
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 243
There is no future proof, particularly even room correction is getting better and better every few years. They keep jacking around with HDMI. Object oriented surround is the future obviously. 4k video is a big change coming. These are just the obvious new things... There are many others that we aren't even predicting.

Blazar!
blazar is online now  
post #3034 of 3041 Old 03-14-2014, 06:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mtbdudex's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 4,341
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 211
Lindahl - do you want to maintain this thread?
IMO It's time has come to de-sticky it and let it sunset....I was asked to ask you...so doing so openly and transparently.

>>I also sent him a PM after posting this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explanation of the Future-Proof Receiver


Introduction:


With the recent introduction of high resolution sound provided from both Blue-Ray and HD-DVD players, a lot of people have been inquiring about buying a future-proof receiver - one that can handle the lossless and higher resolution lossy formats (TrueHD, etc.) even though HDMI 1.3 is not here yet. There seems to be a lot of confusion here surrounding these topics so I've taken a moment to sit down and write a little bit about it all. First things first, HDMI 1.3 is unnecessary for a receiver, a future-proof receiver with HDMI 1.1 is all you need.

Words of caution:

1) Only some receivers with HDMI currently on the market output audio over HDMI, others simply ignore the audio signal and act as a switcher (i.e. Pioneer 1016tx).

2) Movie soundtracks are recorded with the .1 (LFE) channel 10db quieter than the rest of the channels. It is a receiver's job to increase the .1 channel by 10 db, when fed a Dolby or DTS signal. Some receivers do NOT apply this 10 db increase to PCM signals over HDMI, reproducing the bass much quieter than the rest of the soundtrack. See here for more information (including which receivers do what).

3) Some PS3 games (Ridge Racer 7) will only output 7.1 and 2.0 PCM, and thus, will only output 2.0 PCM when settings indicate a 5.1 channel setup. For such games, setting the output to DD will allow 5.1 channel setups to experience properly downmixed 5.1 channels of audio.

4) My examples of receivers with various support is only a small sampling and may not be entirely accurate. As new information emerges, I will try to keep them updated as much as possible. If you have any corrections or additions to the list, please post them in this thread. Use the examples list as a guideline, but be sure to double check support in the receiver's specific thread.

Defintions:


These aren't rigorous, so cut me some slack.


Simple Processing

- Level trimming (volume balancing)

- Distance adjustment

- Bass management

Surround Processing

- Dolby Pro-Logic IIx provides surround upmixing from 5.1 pre-HDMI Dolby formats and two channel formats to 6.1 and 7.1 channels.

- DTS EX provides surround upmixing from specially encoded 5.1 pre-HDMI DTS formats into 6.1 channels (7.1 too?).

- Some receivers also have THX Select2 provides advanced THX processing that attempts to improve sound quality for small rooms from sound formats that were originally mixed for theaters. Also provides surround upmixing from 5.1 channels to 7.1 channels.

EQ Processing

- Some receivers provide advanced equalization, or adjustment of the volume of specific frequency bands, to help correct room acoustical problems (some even in the time-domain, i.e. Audessy).

Analog

- Provides one analog channel of lossless uncompressed PCM audio.

- Most receivers have 5.1 analog inputs, some have 7.1.

SPDIF (Coaxial, Optical)

- Provides two channel lossless uncompressed PCM audio.

- Provides all pre-HDMI Dolby and DTS formats (5.1/6.1).

HDMI 1.1

- Provides up to 8 (7.1) channels of lossless uncompressed PCM audio.

- Provides all pre-HDMI Dolby and DTS formats (5.1/6.1).

- Provides DVD-Audio streaming as PCM.

HDMI 1.2

- Adds SACD streaming as proprietary DSD format.

HDMI 1.3

- Adds up to 8 (7.1) channels of post-HDMI Dolby and DTS formats (TrueHD, etc.).

Current HD-DVD and Blue-Ray Players

- Provides pre-HDMI and post-HDMI formats through analog outputs in lossless uncompressed PCM format.

- Provides pre-HDMI and post-HDMI formats through HDMI output in lossless uncompressed PCM format.

- Provides pre-HDMI formats through HDMI output in bitstream compressed format (Dolby/DTS).

- Limited to 5.1 channels (7.1 channels will come with later players).

PS3

- Provides 7.1 channels.

- 7.1 titles include: Resistance of Man (7.1 discrete video game), Descent (6.1 matrixed to 7.1), and Crank (6.1 matrixed to 7.1).


Levels of Receivers:

Level 1

5.1 receivers that provide SPDIF, 5.1 analog input channels and provide all three processing stages on digital sources.

Examples: Virtually all 5.1 receivers.

Level 2

7.1 receivers that provide SPDIF, 5.1 analog inputs, and provide all three processing stages on digital sources.

Level 3

7.1 receivers that provide SPDIF, 5.1 analog inputs, and 5.1 HDMI PCM but can't perform surround processing on PCM digital sources.

Examples: Panasonic XR57 (no processing at all).

Level 3.5 (added late in the game)

7.1 receivers that provide SPDIF, 7.1 analog inputs, and 5.1 HDMI PCM but can't perform surround processing on PCM digital sources.

Examples: Onkyo x04 series.

Level 4

7.1 receivers that provide SPDIF, 5.1/7.1 analog inputs, and 7.1 HDMI PCM but can't perform surround processing on PCM digital sources.

Examples: Panasonic XR700 (no processing at all). Onkyo 605. Sony STR-DG810 and higher.

Level 5

7.1 recievers that provide SPDIF, 5.1/7.1 analog inputs, 5.1 HDMI PCM, and allow all three processing types on all digital signals.

Examples: HK 645 and higher. Marantz SR6001 and higher (only with latest firmware?).

Level 6

7.1 receivers that provide SPDIF, 5.1/7.1 analog inputs, 7.1 HDMI PCM, and allow all three processing types on all digital signals.

Examples: All HDMI Denons. Yamaha RX-V661/HTR-6060 and higher. Pioneer Elite 81TXV and higher. Onkyo 705 and higher. Integra *.8 series.


Future-proof decisions:


If you don't care about 7.1 surround sound, then all receivers are future proof.


If you don't care about 7.1 surround sound for post-HDMI Dolby and DTS formats, or using generally inferior DACs in your player for post-HDMI Dolby and DTS formats, then receivers Level 2 and higher are future proof.


If you don't care about 7.1 audio for post-HDMI Dolby and DTS formats, then receivers Level 3 and higher are future proof.


If you don't care about 7.1 audio for 5.1 post-HDMI Dolby and DTS formats, then receivers Level 4 and higher are future proof.


If you don't care about being at the mercy of the generally inferior DACs in your player (vs the DACs in your receiver) for 7.1 audio and switching between HDMI and Analog output for 5.1 and 7.1 sources, then receivers Level 5 and higher are future proof.


If you want a true future proof receiver with full processing on post-HDMI Dolby and DTS formats, and true digital 7.1 channel support, then Level 6 receivers are future proof (see annotation).


Annotation:


The only current 7.1 PCM HDMI source is the PS3. Receiver manuals are notoriously vague on HDMI audio support. Therefore, there are very few confirmed Level 6 receivers. Some Level 5 receivers may be Level 6 receivers. Contacting the manufacturer is the best way to confirm Level 6 receivers until people begin testing with the PS3
.


Lindahl - do you want to maintain this thread?
IMO It's time has come to de-sticky it and let it sunset....I was asked to ask you...so doing so openly and transparently.

Mike R,P.E. clickable DIY hot links:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mtbdudex is online now  
post #3035 of 3041 Old 03-14-2014, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Lindahl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,745
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 18
I don't have the time or knowledge to maintain this thread. Go ahead and let it die.
Lindahl is offline  
post #3036 of 3041 Old 03-14-2014, 08:32 PM
Senior Member
 
Farley1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Georgia, United States
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

I don't have the time or knowledge to maintain this thread. Go ahead and let it die.

Action needs to be taken for that to happen. Stickies, by  nature/definition, don't die unless they are un-stuck. It's ALWAYS prominently displayed at the top, and any/every good forum goer knows that the first thing you do when you join a forum, or navigate to a forum and look through it for info or even consider joining....is read the stickies. 


Samsung PN60F5300, Sony PS3

Denon AVR-X1000

SVS PB-2000

Front-Center-Surround, Pioneer: FS52-C22-FS51

Farley1 is offline  
post #3037 of 3041 Old 03-15-2014, 05:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mtbdudex's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 4,341
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post

I'm assuming someone has already PM'd the OP, who's still very much active. If not, I suggest you do so. If he doesn't want to fool with it, but gives permission for an update, one of you can copy the original post, edit it and PM it to me. I can replace the original post with the edited version. But since it's the OP's thread, let's start there.

Also, since stickies don't really "stick" anymore, we tend to leave them so long as they're active and still contain useful information.

Mod - I've pm'd OP and he has no desire to re boot this thread. It's served it's purpose, consensus is time to desticky and let it sunset.

Mike R,P.E. clickable DIY hot links:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mtbdudex is online now  
post #3038 of 3041 Old 03-15-2014, 05:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gary J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: 4000' or sea level
Posts: 7,607
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 89
Skipping by this resource seems to be a hardship to some for some reason.

Gary J
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Gary J is online now  
post #3039 of 3041 Old 03-15-2014, 08:01 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
batpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 24,316
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 578 Post(s)
Liked: 1223
It's not a "resource" when the information is over 5 years out of date and thus creates more confusion due to the implied legitimacy of a "sticky". Why have this be one of the first things people see?

And why defend it? Just to be a contrarian? Such a strange cause to champion.

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
Setup Guide and FAQ

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
batpig is offline  
post #3040 of 3041 Old 03-15-2014, 09:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mtbdudex's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 4,341
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 211
looks like DrDon just de-sticked the thread...

Mike R,P.E. clickable DIY hot links:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
..
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mtbdudex is online now  
post #3041 of 3041 Old 03-15-2014, 11:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gary J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: 4000' or sea level
Posts: 7,607
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

It's not a "resource" when the information is over 5 years out of date and thus creates more confusion due to the implied legitimacy of a "sticky". Why have this be one of the first things people see?

And why defend it? Just to be a contrarian? Such a strange cause to champion.
There is info particular to make/models found either nowhere else or in addition to elsewhere. I see that as a more common sense notion than contrarian and cause to champion a bit drama queen-ish. But a few have found the entry on page one burdensome. So be it.

Gary J
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Gary J is online now  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off