5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 11 - AVS Forum
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post #301 of 3041 Old 11-27-2006, 05:34 PM
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I spoke with Denon today and confirmed that ALL their US AVRs with HDMi can accept 8 channel PCM via the HDMI port.
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post #302 of 3041 Old 11-27-2006, 07:54 PM
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So is it fair to say the Denon 3806 is a viable option for the A1 and PS3?
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post #303 of 3041 Old 11-27-2006, 08:09 PM
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if by viable you mean it can accept 7.1 PCM over the hdmi connection, then yes.
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post #304 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 11:51 AM
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Sony's PlayStation 3 squares off with players from Panasonic and Samsung in a three-way true-Blu showdown.


Good read! One comment out of that I'd like clarified. Bottom of page 2:

Quote:


It may rock for games, but the PS3 is also equipped to deliver the best possible picture and sound from Blu-ray movie discs. Its HDMI 1.3 jack pumps out video at resolutions ranging from 480p to 1080p (with 60-Hz frame rate), while a supplied breakout cable plugs into the multi-out jack to deliver 480i-rez composite-video and stereo audio. You can buy an optional S-video/stereo audio cable or component-video cable, although the copy protection on Blu-ray Discs may limit resolution over the latter (Sony didn't send one so I wasn't able to check).

The PS3 offers built-in decoding for high-rez Dolby TrueHD soundtracks, which it will convert to a multichannel linear PCM signal for output over HDMI. And since we're talking about an HDMI 1.3 connection here, it can also be used to route Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio bitstreams to an outboard receiver or processor equipped with Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio decoding, when those products become available.

The PS3's optical digital output, meanwhile, conveys standard 5.1-channel Dolby Digital and DTS signals to current receivers and surround processors.

See the bolded item? If someone buys a receiver now, even up to HDMI 1.2a, where does that put them with all of this, just audio wise? I want to make sure I'm perfectly clear on this before I make any rash and potentially expensive mistakes. Thanks!

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post #305 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 11:59 AM
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Wow... and it does SACD too!

Yves
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post #306 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yves Smolders View Post

Wow... and it does SACD too!

It's a steal for what it is at $600. That review pretty much confirms what PS3 owners have known since they first turned the machine on.

Giant killer.

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post #307 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

Sony's PlayStation 3 squares off with players from Panasonic and Samsung in a three-way true-Blu showdown.


Good read! One comment out of that I'd like clarified. Bottom of page 2:



See the bolded item? If someone buys a receiver now, even up to HDMI 1.2a, where does that put them with all of this, just audio wise? I want to make sure I'm perfectly clear on this before I make any rash and potentially expensive mistakes. Thanks!

Bottom line: the Blu-ray or HD-DVD player must decode the TrueHD, DTS HD etc within the player itself if the disc is encoded in the enhanced format, which is virtually all discs! So from what I can gather, having a TrueHD or DTS HD decoder in a receiver will accomplish nothing.

Bob Pariseau made a post on this very subject. I will see if I can locate it and post a link here.

edit: found it:

Quote:


Rob,
Get out your magic decoder ring and I'll let you in on the secret the industry doesn't want you to know (in their eagerness to get people to buy new receivers next year):

Most commecial discs for the new formats are authored in the "advanced" mode. That means that the player *HAS TO* decode the high res audio format regardless of whatever the receiver might or might not be capable of doing. This requirement exits because of "advanced" audio overlay in the player (sound effects, comment tracks, etc.). Even if you are not using such features, an advanced mode disc has to be decoded by the player. Period.

If the player is not capable of decoding one or another of the new audio formats on any given "advanced" disc, then that player can not play that format when viewing that disc REGARDLESS of how you cable it up and regardless of what the receiver can do. This is true even if the player comes with the upcoming HDMI V1.3. Advanced discs HAVE TO BE decoded INSIDE the player.

Once the player decodes the high res format there are only three things it can do with it:

1) Convert it to multi-channel analog and send it out on multi-channel analog audio output jacks.

2) Ship it to the receiver as multi-channel PCM on HDMI V1.1 or higher -- protected by HDCP.

3) Down-res it to traditional multi-channel audio bandwidth, re-encode it as a traditional format -- typically old, standard DTS -- and ship it out the traditional optical or coax digital audio output. This is for compatability with receivers older than HDMI V1.1.

That's it.

All of this hype about upcoming HDMI V1.3 being able to transmit the undecoded form of the new formats to upcoming receivers that will do the decode themselves (as is already done with the standard format, normal res, Dolby Digital or DTS tracks) is just that. Hype.

Almost any disc you stick in the player will be "advanced" and if the player can't do the decode itself then you just can't listen to that particular audio track.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&page=75&pp=30
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post #308 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Bottom line: the Blu-ray or HD-DVD player must decode the TrueHD, DTS HD etc within the player itself if the disc is encoded in the enhanced format, which is virtually all discs! So from what I can gather, having a TrueHD or DTS HD decoder in a receiver will accomplish nothing.

Bob Pariseau made a post on this very subject. I will see if I can locate it and post a link here.

edit: found it:



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&page=75&pp=30


Ok, I thought that's how I understood it but I wanted to be sure.

So Mr. Bob got confirmed, basically.


This question has come up in several times. Look at the sidebar on page 4 as it pertains to the PS3:


Quote:
The Short Form
Price $599 / sonystyle.com / 877-865-7669
Snapshot
With its superb picture and sound quality, future-proof features, and attractive price, Sony's PS3 manages to live up to the hype.
Plus
Excellent picture and sound
Bargain price compared to other players
Loaded with cool, useful features
Has future-ready HDMI 1.3 connection
Fast disc loading and response time


Minus
Real remote control costs extra
Loud fan noise
No high-def upscaling for DVDs
May get shot at waiting in line to buy one
Key Features
60-GB hard disk
802.11 b/g wireless networking


Onboard Dolby TrueHD decoding


Plays PlayStation games, Blu-ray Discs, DVDs, CDs, and Super Audio CDs
Ethernet jack
Four USB inputs
Compact Flash, Memory Stick, and SD card slots
Rips CDs to hard drive and automatically collects song metadata
Displays digital photos
Outputs: HDMI, optical digital audio, multijack with composite-video and stereo analog audio adapter (optional component- and S-video adapter)
12.8 x 10.8 x 4 in; 11 lb


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post #309 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 12:18 PM
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With the rate HT is going there is no such thing as a FUTURE PROOF AVR. If the future is a couple of years go for a denon or yamaha.

tony4k
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post #310 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

If someone buys a receiver now, even up to HDMI 1.2a, where does that put them with all of this, just audio wise?

The PS3 has a built in decoder for TrueHD but apparently not for DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA. For those latter two codecs, the native bitstream will have to be sent to a receiver that has the new DTS decoding built in, "when those products become available".

If the decoding occurs in the player (like with TrueHD), then any version of HDMI can be used to transmit the hi-rez multi-channel PCM signal. But in order to transmit the codecs in their native bitstream (like with DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA), you need HDMI 1.3.

However, getting a receiver with HDMI 1.3 connectivity won't be enough. You'll also have to make sure that it has the new DTS decoders built in. Otherwise you'll send those bitstreams into the receiver and it will only recognize the DTS core data (not the -HD or -HD MA extension packets).

Sanjay

Sanjay
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post #311 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 01:25 PM
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Well, that still means PS3 is extreme value for money when you're a HDMI 1.1 amp owner that does multi-channel (read Denon owner

Seems like most releases are using PCM anyway, maybe the lossless dolby and DTS formats will be dead in the water, with the big disc capacity Blu-Ray offers?

Yves
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post #312 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 03:31 PM
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One thing I am confused about is that I watched the Ice Age Meltdown Blu-ray movie through the PS3 today to pansonic 57 and it gave 5.1 PCM over the hdmi. That disc said it was encoded in DTS-HD in the menus and said nothing about uncompressed PCM or Dolby TrueHD.
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post #313 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 03:46 PM
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:blackdot:

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post #314 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 04:06 PM
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So all denon's can accept mulit=channel PCM input, 5.1 or better through HDMI.

What about other companies? Do the panny's and Onkyo's? HK?

Has anyone made a list of which AVR's do and don't?
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post #315 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The PS3 has a built in decoder for TrueHD but apparently not for DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA. For those latter two codecs, the native bitstream will have to be sent to a receiver that has the new DTS decoding built in, "when those products become available".

If the decoding occurs in the player (like with TrueHD), then any version of HDMI can be used to transmit the hi-rez multi-channel PCM signal. But in order to transmit the codecs in their native bitstream (like with DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA), you need HDMI 1.3.

However, getting a receiver with HDMI 1.3 connectivity won't be enough. You'll also have to make sure that it has the new DTS decoders built in. Otherwise you'll send those bitstreams into the receiver and it will only recognize the DTS core data (not the -HD or -HD MA extension packets).

Sanjay

Sanjay-

Your comments seem to be contradictory to the post by Bob Pariseau that I quoted previously:

Quote:


Most commecial discs for the new formats are authored in the "advanced" mode. That means that the player *HAS TO* decode the high res audio format regardless of whatever the receiver might or might not be capable of doing. This requirement exits because of "advanced" audio overlay in the player (sound effects, comment tracks, etc.). Even if you are not using such features, an advanced mode disc has to be decoded by the player. Period.

If the player is not capable of decoding one or another of the new audio formats on any given "advanced" disc, then that player can not play that format when viewing that disc REGARDLESS of how you cable it up and regardless of what the receiver can do. This is true even if the player comes with the upcoming HDMI V1.3. Advanced discs HAVE TO BE decoded INSIDE the player.

Once the player decodes the high res format there are only three things it can do with it:

1) Convert it to multi-channel analog and send it out on multi-channel analog audio output jacks.

2) Ship it to the receiver as multi-channel PCM on HDMI V1.1 or higher -- protected by HDCP.

3) Down-res it to traditional multi-channel audio bandwidth, re-encode it as a traditional format -- typically old, standard DTS -- and ship it out the traditional optical or coax digital audio output. This is for compatability with receivers older than HDMI V1.1.

That's it.

All of this hype about upcoming HDMI V1.3 being able to transmit the undecoded form of the new formats to upcoming receivers that will do the decode themselves (as is already done with the standard format, normal res, Dolby Digital or DTS tracks) is just that. Hype.

Almost any disc you stick in the player will be "advanced" and if the player can't do the decode itself then you just can't listen to that particular audio track.

Do you disagree with the above?

Thanks!
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post #316 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 05:59 PM
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I think I'd better wait until at least the next CES before making a move.

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post #317 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Your comments seem to be contradictory to the post by Bob Pariseau that I quoted previously:

I don't see the contradiction. Bob is talking about software content, I'm talking about hardware limitations: as in, a soundtrack cannot be decoded in the player if the player doesn't have the appropriate decoder (e.g., PS3 and DTS-HD).

Sanjay

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post #318 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 06:49 PM
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I agree there's no contradiction. It is the practical import for purchasers that needs to be stressed here.

If your intent is to play new format commercial discs and to get the full value of the new format, extra high quality audio (of various flavors) available on those discs, then you need to be sure you buy a player that can decode -- all by itself -- each of the new high res audio formats of interest to you. Either today, or by software upgrade coming soon enough to satisfy you.

The reason is that virtually all of the commercial discs you are likely to watch will have been authored in the "advanced content" mode. And each and every one of the new audio formats *MUST* be decoded inside the player for such "advanced" discs. You will not have the option of passing the undecoded audio to a receiver to be decoded there, regardless of HDMI V1.3 or the capabilities of any given receiver.

The practical import is clear. You need to concentrate on what THE PLAYER can decode, and whether an HDMI V1.1 or higher link can be made to the receiver to take it from there without loss of quality.

The practical import when playing games from game devices will likely be different.
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post #319 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 07:08 PM
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Bob and Sanjay, thanks for the follow up (2 people who really know their audio)!

I guess my confusion is this: if the player MUST decode the hi res formats, why would anyone need a receiver/processor to have this capability?

Sanjay said "The PS3 has a built in decoder for TrueHD but apparently not for DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA. For those latter two codecs, the native bitstream will have to be sent to a receiver that has the new DTS decoding built in, "when those products become available".

If I am reading this correctly, this means that even though the PS3 wont internally decode DTS-HD, since it has hdmi 1.3, it can send the native bitstream to a processor that has a DTS-HD decoder in it, and WILL get DTS-HD sound. Correct?

But this seems to contradict the statement that all discs encoded in the advanced mode MUST BE decoded IN THE PLAYER.



Hope I am not looking to dense here!
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post #320 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 07:14 PM
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I agree with the last two comments of Bob and Sanjay. From the reading I have done, the focus belongs on the player. Dolby Labs notes the parallel to what we expect from the player on the video side:

"The most practical way that the next-generation disc players achieve these new interactive features is by processing all of the related audio elements in the player. This is the same model that has been used for video on DVDs...

"In HD disc players, the audio will be handled in the same fashion. Soundtracks decoded from the disc, as well as audio elements streamed or downloaded from an Internet connection or generated internally in the player, will be decoded in the player as digital PCM signals. PCM is the format players use to perform all internal audio processing operations, including mixing. In the mixing stage, streaming commentary, button sounds, and other non-disc-audio will be mixed with the native 5.1 or 7.1 soundtrack from the disc. The result will be the complete audio presentation as intended by the content maker."

Dolby Labs also notes that when we get to see HDMI 1.3 equipped receivers, it will be with restrictions as Bob notes above.

"To decode these bitstreams, the A/V decoder will need to support the updated data protocols, as well as incorporate these new decoding algorithms. In addition, it will be necessary to select HD discs in which the content maker has permitted the core 5.1 or 7.1 audio bitstreams to bypass the player's mixing process and be sent directly to the digital outputs of the player. We expect that certain HD discs will permit this, but they may represent a minority of titles. In the end, the sound quality will be essentially the same as that of audio decoded within the player as PCM signals and transported through a current-generation HDMI connection to the A/V receiver." (My emphasis.)

It looks to me that HDMI 1.3 will be a wild card, introducing more variables with no apparent audio quality upside.

Link: http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...HD_avrs_1.html "Ensuring Compatibility Between Next-Generation High-Definition Disc Players and Your A/V System"

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post #321 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 07:21 PM
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Rob,
The PS-3 can:

1) Be software upgraded to add the missing codecs for internal decoding, or

2) Transmit the bitstream for those missing codecs to a sufficiently smart receiver (via HDMI V1.3 or above), or

3) Not play those missing codecs -- i.e., you have to select a different audio track

However, option (2) will only work for those few commecial discs that happen to have audio tracks featuring those missing codecs *AND WHICH ALSO* are not "advanced content" discs -- *OR POSSIBLY* for other sources of such audio tracks such as future games.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Now some might ponder that Sony wants to put TrueHD in a privileged position without actually hindering sales of the PS-3. How do you do that? Well you don't include the other codecs, because you know full well that nobody can complain until new receivers come out. You use the fluff and hype around HDMI V1.3 to deflect any questions.

And then when the new receivers finally do come out and people discover that they *STILL* can't play the new codecs because their discs are "advanced" then you either blame it on the discs (i.e., if they want to be "advanced" they really should have been smart enough to choose TrueHD, right?), or you finally release the software upgrade implementing the missing codecs.
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post #322 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Bob and Sanjay, thanks for the follow up (2 people who really know their audio)!

I guess my confusion is this: if the player MUST decode the hi res formats, why would anyone need a receiver/processor to have this capability?

Sanjay said "The PS3 has a built in decoder for TrueHD but apparently not for DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA. For those latter two codecs, the native bitstream will have to be sent to a receiver that has the new DTS decoding built in, "when those products become available".

If I am reading this correctly, this means that even though the PS3 wont internally decode DTS-HD, since it has hdmi 1.3, it can send the native bitstream to a processor that has a DTS-HD decoder in it, and WILL get DTS-HD sound. Correct?

But this seems to contradict the statement that all discs encoded in the advanced mode MUST BE decoded IN THE PLAYER.



Hope I am not looking to dense here!

Let me suggest what's happening here. And this is opinion, not fact. If you are producing a $600. device that will play Blu-ray discs and you are also producing a $1,000. device that will play Blu-ray discs, you offload some functionality from the $600. player to be handled by a future AVR. And to do it, you must have HDMI 1.3 on the $600. player.

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post #323 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 07:49 PM
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I wonder what happens when HDMI 2.0 starts surfacing in roughly 18-24 months, or at least serious talk of it?

Actually, someone that I consider rock solid on these kinds of matters mentioned that in VERY quick passing a couple of months ago in the video processors forum.

When I saw him write it, I just groaned.

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post #324 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q View Post

I wonder what happens when HDMI 2.0 starts surfacing in roughly 18-24 months

duck, and buy a nice stereo integrated amp.

Boo!
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post #325 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Rob,
The PS-3 can:

1) Be software upgraded to add the missing codecs for internal decoding, or

2) Transmit the bitstream for those missing codecs to a sufficiently smart receiver (via HDMI V1.3 or above), or

3) Not play those missing codecs -- i.e., you have to select a different audio track

However, option (2) will only work for those few commecial discs that happen to have audio tracks featuring those missing codecs *AND WHICH ALSO* are not "advanced content" discs -- *OR POSSIBLY* for other sources of such audio tracks such as future games.

Thanks Bob, the part highlighted in red is exactly where my confusion was. This explains it fully. I have now been enlightened!
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post #326 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 08:29 PM
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Rob,
Quote:


Sanjay said "The PS3 has a built in decoder for TrueHD but apparently not for DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA. For those latter two codecs, the native bitstream will have to be sent to a receiver that has the new DTS decoding built in, "when those products become available".

I was explaining the bolded portion of the quote that Q posted, even quoting from that passage.
Quote:


If I am reading this correctly, this means that even though the PS3 wont internally decode DTS-HD, since it has hdmi 1.3, it can send the native bitstream to a processor that has a DTS-HD decoder in it, and WILL get DTS-HD sound. Correct?

Correct, as long as the content is allowed to be transmitted in its native bitstream. Otherwise, to quote Bob: "if the player can't do the decode itself then you just can't listen to that particular audio track."

So, if the PS3 cannot decode a particular soundtrack AND that soundtrack is not allowed to be sent to a future receiver that can decode it, then you simply cannot listen to that soundtrack.

There's a couple of things we should clarify and, unfortunately, I don't have the answers. Does the Advanced/Basic authoring apply to Dolby codecs only or to DTS codecs too? Also, is this an interactive feature of HD DVD only or will it also be a feature of Blu-ray (once they get their interactive BD Java going).

What if it turns out that DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA soundtracks on Blu-ray Discs have no problem being transmitted by current BD players with HDMI 1.3 output (like the PS3)?
Quote:


Hope I am not looking to dense here!

Are you kidding? Rube Goldberg himself couldn't have come up with implementations this complex. I feel like I'm treading water just to keep up with the new information I pick up every day.

Sanjay

Sanjay
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post #327 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 09:25 PM
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Thanks Sanjay.

You raise some good questions. I am glad this thread was made a sticky, as I think it will make it more likely that we may get answers to these questions:

Quote:


There's a couple of things we should clarify and, unfortunately, I don't have the answers. Does the Advanced/Basic authoring apply to Dolby codecs only or to DTS codecs too? Also, is this an interactive feature of HD DVD only or will it also be a feature of Blu-ray (once they get their interactive BD Java going).

What if it turns out that DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA soundtracks on Blu-ray Discs have no problem being transmitted by current BD players with HDMI 1.3 output (like the PS3)?

Would it be fair to guess that eventually all of these players (HD-DVD and Blu-ray) will eventually get to the point where they all have the advanced audio decoders in them, which would make having the decoder in the receiver moot anyway? Don't almost all SD DVD players have DD and DTS decoders in them, for example?
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post #328 of 3041 Old 11-28-2006, 09:30 PM
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I just purchased a 1080P projector. Was settling on a suitable receiver, either the Pioneer VSX-81TVX or the Pioneer VSX-82TVX. The 81 has the Sharc EX+48 bit Freescale DSP, the 82 has the same, plus a Faroujda HD video scaler. Earlier today I was told that neither will support the new version of HDMI 1.3 (apparently to be released early 2007) and that new Blu Ray players will not be compatible with recievers not equipped with HDMI 1.3. Should I hold off on purchasing AV reciever at this time? Thanks.
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post #329 of 3041 Old 11-29-2006, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruschi View Post

I just purchased a 1080P projector. Was settling on a suitable receiver, either the Pioneer VSX-81TVX or the Pioneer VSX-82TVX. The 81 has the Sharc EX+48 bit Freescale DSP, the 82 has the same, plus a Faroujda HD video scaler. Earlier today I was told that neither will support the new version of HDMI 1.3 (apparently to be released early 2007) and that new Blu Ray players will not be compatible with recievers not equipped with HDMI 1.3. Should I hold off on purchasing AV reciever at this time? Thanks.

Just take some time to look at the first post of this thread and maybe skim the last couple of pages or so.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #330 of 3041 Old 11-29-2006, 08:56 AM
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It strikes me that this thread should be combined with info from my LFE interconnect thread. It's all very well a receiver supporting 7.1 PCM input, but if it can't get the LFE level right, you're not going to be a happy bunny if you ever want to hook it up to a BD or HD player. And it seems that the majority of receivers can't currently get the LFE level right.

The functionality you want is for a receiver to apply +10dB in-band gain to LFE signals coming in as PCM over HDMI. There may be an option to disable this, but it should be the default.

At the minute, the only receivers I know of offering this are Denon 3806, 4306, 4806CI (not 4806), and presumably later models, as well as current Onkyos. Pioneer Elites and Yamaha RX models don't. I don't know about Marantz.

So many of your "level 6" receivers are, in my view, inherently unsuitable for use with HDMI PCM audio.

On the positive side, any fix should just be firmware. It's pretty trivial, given that they can get it right for internal DD and DTS decode.
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