5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

The below shows that it can't do DPLIIx processing on PCM sources (Dolby Digital and DTS sources only).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic XR57 Manual - Page 24
Dolby Pro Logic IIx
Dolby Pro Logic offers you multi-channel playback of stereo sources.
The technology enables you to play 5.1-channel Dolby Digital and DTS sources on
7.1 channels (when two surround back speakers are connected to the unit) and on
6.1 channels (when only one surround back speaker is connected).
The technology makes surround back channels available for the playback of
Dolby Digital Surround EX sources.




It appears the manual is wrong, then. Generally if a receiver can do one sort of processing on a PCM signal, it can do all, and visa versa - if it can't do one of them, it can't do them all.

I thought the receiver in question was SA-XR700, so why quote from SA-XR57 manual?
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post #362 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

We can't find in the manual where it states something wrong. Do you have a page, paragraph, etc.?

Read my reply, again. I even quoted the paragraph (page 24).

Quote:
Originally Posted by axs View Post

I thought the receiver in question was SA-XR700, so why quote from SA-XR57 manual?

Sorry, I was confused. The XR700 has the same paragraph in it (I remember my frustration in finding it). If you have a link to the XR700 manual, I will give you the page number for the paragraph - though it should be pretty easy to find, now that you have the quote. I can't find the link to the manual at the moment.

EDIT: Found it. It's on page 28. In response to the below, it's not going to be on the same page, it's a different receiver.
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post #363 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

Read my reply, again. I even quoted the paragraph (page 24).



Sorry, I was confused. The XR700 has the same paragraph in it (I remember my frustration in finding it). If you have a link to the XR700 manual, I will give you the page number for the paragraph - though it should be pretty easy to find, now that you have the quote. I can't find the link to the manual at the moment.

I own the receiver, I have the printed manual in front of me and I have a link to download the manual http://www.panasonic.co.uk/customer-...147273&fmt=pdf
Page 24 has to do with "Auto speaker setup using the setup microphone."
Dana

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post #364 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 10:02 AM
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Apparently, the paragraph you refer to is on the top of page 28 of the XR700 Manual describing surround sound effects from 2-channel stereo sources.

Dana

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post #365 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 10:04 AM
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This can be even more complicated - eg some receivers can apply PLIIx processing to 96kHz signals, while some can only apply it to 48kHz signals...
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post #366 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 10:07 AM
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Great. We are literally all on the same page. So, what is in error?

Dana

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post #367 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

Apparently, the paragraph you refer to is on the top of page 28 of the XR700 Manual describing surround sound effects from 2-channel stereo sources.

No, it's describing each of the surround processing features, and for which signals that surround processing feature works. Each bullet point in the quoted section (paragraph) describes a signal that DPLIIx will work on. This includes 2-channel stereo, 5.1 DTS and DD, and DD-EX. It doesn't say PCM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

So, what is in error?

The error is that it doesn't say you can apply DPLIIx on 5.1 PCM signals, and you've personally confirmed it can. This is an error (oversight) in the manual.
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post #368 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus1099 View Post

... Dronbi has confirmed that it will apply IIX to 5.1 PCM. We know it wont do room corrections....

As best I can determine, from reading every page and every post on this thread, the first mention of my having confirmed that the XR700 will apply Dolby Pro Logic IIx to 5.1 PCM is when Shamus said so back in Post 349. I don't know the post of mine to which he refers nor do I recall making the statement.

Sorry.

Dana

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post #369 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

As best I can determine, from reading every page and every post on this thread, the first mention of my having confirmed that the XR700 will apply Dolby Pro Logic IIx to 5.1 PCM is when Shamus said so back in Post 349. I don't know the post of mine to which he refers nor do I recall making the statement.

Ok, I guess I'll have to retract moving the XR57 and XR700 up on the list. As far as we know, they do not do processing on PCM inputs.
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post #370 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

As best I can determine, from reading every page and every post on this thread, the first mention of my having confirmed that the XR700 will apply Dolby Pro Logic IIx to 5.1 PCM is when Shamus said so back in Post 349. I don't know the post of mine to which he refers nor do I recall making the statement.

Sorry.

Dana

It was in another thread-
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2&page=1&pp=30

I asked this:
Quote:


Just found this thread!!! Got a question. I just got this receiver(still waiting for it) and I have the Panny BD player. My question is, when sending 5.1 pcm from a BD disc over HDMI, will the DolbyIIx process it to 7.1 in a 7.1 setup????

Also, what settings are you using on the BD player? Im assuming your sending DTS and DOLBY to the receiver via bitstream???

And your answer was this:
Quote:


Answer to first question: yes!
Answer to second question. I just made sure that HDMI audio was active on the BD10. Then: enjoy!

Dana

You may of missread it... no big deal. Can you test it along with what I posted earlier in #348?
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post #371 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus1099 View Post

It was in another thread-
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2&page=1&pp=30

I asked this:


And your answer was this:


You may of missread it... no big deal. Can you test it along with what I posted earlier in #348?

It must have been late at night. No, it really isn't possible for a variety of reasons for me to check things out at the moment. But. if yours is on the way...

Dana

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post #372 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

It must have been late at night. No, it really isn't possible for a variety of reasons for me to check things out at the moment. But. if yours is on the way...

Dana

It should be early next week.
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post #373 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

Ok, I guess I'll have to retract moving the XR57 and XR700 up on the list. As far as we know, they do not do processing on PCM inputs.

So.... By using a PCM track via HDMI, crossovers, speaker level adjustments etc will be ignored on the receiver and all of that will fall back on the player?
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post #374 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 02:19 PM
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Shamus,
Typically it is better to do it the other way around so that you don't have differences between your different sources playing through the receiver. I.e., you want the RECEIVER to do bass steering, other content steering, speaker time alignment, and speaker volume level balancing.

Now some players will just decode to multiple channels of PCM without regard to any player settings on speaker configuration. For others, it is easy to disable the various speaker related processing features. To do this, tell the player that:

1) You have a full set of surround speakers, center channel, and subwoofer WHETHER OR NOT that is true.

2) All speakers are the same distance from your listening position WHETHER OR NOT that is true.

3) All speakers, other than the subwoofer, are "large" -- full range speakers capable of handling deep base -- again WHETHER OR NOT that is true.

4) All speakers play at the same volume.

Since you have told the player that all speakers exist, are large, play at the same volume, and are at the same distance, the player will have no need to steer content from one speaker to another or to time delay or level adjust any channels.
--Bob

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post #375 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Shamus,
Typically it is better to do it the other way around so that you don't have differences between your different sources playing through the receiver. I.e., you want the RECEIVER to do bass steering, other content steering, speaker time alignment, and speaker volume level balancing.

Now some players will just decode to multiple channels of PCM without regard to any player settings on speaker configuration. For others, it is easy to disable the various speaker related processing features. To do this, tell the player that:

1) You have a full set of surround speakers, center channel, and subwoofer WHETHER OR NOT that is true.

2) All speakers are the same distance from your listening position WHETHER OR NOT that is true.

3) All speakers, other than the subwoofer, are "large" -- full range speakers capable of handling deep base -- again WHETHER OR NOT that is true.

4) All speakers play at the same volume.

Since you have told the player that all speakers exist, are large, play at the same volume, and are at the same distance, the player will have no need to steer content from one speaker to another or to time delay or level adjust any channels.
--Bob

Right.... but Im under the impression that most receivers, when sent a PCM track, will not be able to do any type of processing and will only output it as is.(Hence the reason for this excellent thread) Its not the end of the world for me but it would of been nice. My main concern is the crossover Frq(Panny BD is stuck at 100). I would of liked to of used the crossovers in the receiver, like you said... thats the ideal place. I should know more early next week and post my findings. Dont bother calling Pannasonic customer service... its a joke!
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post #376 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Shamus,
Typically it is better to do it the other way around so that you don't have differences between your different sources playing through the receiver. I.e., you want the RECEIVER to do bass steering, other content steering, speaker time alignment, and speaker volume level balancing.

Now some players will just decode to multiple channels of PCM without regard to any player settings on speaker configuration. For others, it is easy to disable the various speaker related processing features. To do this, tell the player that:

1) You have a full set of surround speakers, center channel, and subwoofer WHETHER OR NOT that is true.

2) All speakers are the same distance from your listening position WHETHER OR NOT that is true.

3) All speakers, other than the subwoofer, are "large" -- full range speakers capable of handling deep base -- again WHETHER OR NOT that is true.

4) All speakers play at the same volume.

Since you have told the player that all speakers exist, are large, play at the same volume, and are at the same distance, the player will have no need to steer content from one speaker to another or to time delay or level adjust any channels.
--Bob

Bob,
But really we Do want the receiver to process this information, Correct?

(Because if one is using the PS3 as a Blu Ray play, we don't have any Bass or sound management options, even though it passes PCM and Dolby True HD.)

And if the receiver does process, if I read the thread starter correct, this sound managment is what makes an AVR a level 6, correct?

What we really need is an up to date list of the Receivers that Do accept HDMI PCM and allow for sound management etc....
It's getting very confusing sifting through all the various threads trying to figure
out which ones do an don't.

It' appears the Panny's don't.

Thanks.
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post #377 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus1099 View Post

Right.... but Im under the impression that most receivers, when sent a PCM track, will not be able to do any type of processing and will only output it as is.(Hence the reason for this excellent thread) Its not the end of the world for me but it would of been nice. My main concern is the crossover Frq(Panny BD is stuck at 100). I would of liked to of used the crossovers in the receiver, like you said... thats the ideal place. I should know more early next week and post my findings. Dont bother calling Pannasonic customer service... its a joke!

The BD10 sends a decoded 8 ch. LPCM stream to the XR700. (I can't speak for other players but this is the model that Dolby Labs expects with HDMI 1.2a. See my Dolby post on the previous page.) The receiver manages the speakers - distance settings, speaker sizes and the low pass filter which bottoms out at 80. It's all on page 33 of the Manual.

"Lowpass filter frequency for sending the bass range to the subwoofer: 80, 100, 120, 140, 160, 180, 200 (Hz). Factory setting: 80 (Hz)."

Dana

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post #378 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

The BD10 sends a decoded 8 ch. LPCM stream to the XR700. (I can't speak for other players but this is the model that Dolby Labs expects with HDMI 1.2a. See my Dolby post on the previous page.) The receiver manages the speakers - distance settings, speaker sizes and the low pass filter which bottoms out at 80. It's all on page 33 of the Manual.

"Lowpass filter frequency for sending the bass range to the subwoofer: 80, 100, 120, 140, 160, 180, 200 (Hz). Factory setting: 80 (Hz)."

Dana


So the panny does allow processing?
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post #379 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

Bob,
But really we Do want the receiver to process this information, Correct?

(Because if one is using the PS3 as a Blu Ray play, we don't have any Bass or sound management options, even though it passes PCM and Dolby True HD.)

And if the receiver does process, if I read the thread starter correct, this sound managment is what makes an AVR a level 6, correct?

What we really need is an up to date list of the Receivers that Do accept HDMI PCM and allow for sound management etc....
It's getting very confusing sifting through all the various threads trying to figure
out which ones do an don't.

It' appears the Panny's don't.

Thanks.

The XR700 expects the player to decode into LPCM all the audio signal it sends by HDMI just as it decodes all the video. No bitstream. The receiver will accept audio bitstream for decoding via the digital audio inputs - coax or optical.

Dana

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post #380 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

So the panny does allow processing?

In the context I just mentioned - processing of an HDMI LPCM input (or analog line level input) for speaker management and distribution - yes. No signal decoding by the receiver by these transport methods. That's a player function with HDMI 1.2a.

Dana

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post #381 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

In the context I just mentioned - processing of an HDMI LPCM input (or analog line level input) for speaker management and distribution - yes. No signal decoding by the receiver by these transport methods. That's a player function with HDMI 1.2a.

Dana


I think I got it now. So it does allow for speaker management PCM. Thats a key feature I'm looking for.
Thanks.
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post #382 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

I think I got it now. So it does allow for speaker management PCM. Thats a key feature I'm looking for.
Thanks.

Something like the Yamaha 1700/2700 with HDMI 1.2a also meets this criteria, yes?

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #383 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

Something like the Yamaha 1700/2700 with HDMI 1.2a also meets this criteria, yes?

Back when I was younger and knew a lot more - on Post 226 - I said the 1700 did because I read in a spec that it was capable of multi-channel audio via HDMI 1.2a. I may have assumed too much.

Now that I am older and wiser, I like Sanjay's answer better. Let's see it in writing that "The unit is compatible with linear PCM 8-channel surround signals decoded by the BD player and other equipment (up to 96 kHz/24 bit)" or equivalent statement. (That's what the XR700 Manual says.)

A search of the Yamaha web site using "linear PCM" didn't turn up anything on either receiver. So, I have to say I don't know. Ask Yamaha and let us know.

Dana

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post #384 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

A search of the Yamaha web site using "linear PCM" didn't turn up anything on either receiver. So, I have to say I don't know. Ask Yamaha and let us know.

Dana

What do you think is the best way to word the question and I'll be happy to fire it off.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #385 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 06:08 PM
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"Are your (insert receiver IDs) receivers with HDMI compatible with linear PCM 8-channel surround signals decoded by the new high-def optical players?" should do it.

Dana

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post #386 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

"Are your (insert receiver IDs) receivers with HDMI compatible with linear PCM 8-channel surround signals decoded by the new high-def optical players?" should do it.

Dana

Sent.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #387 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 06:38 PM
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This is from Panasonic SA-XR700 owner's manual. It is kind of vague, but does it make it a level 6 AVR?

Quote:
Bottom of page# 26, Panasonic SA-XR700 owner's manual

The unit is compatible with linear PCM 8-channel surround signals decoded by the BD player and other equipment (up to 96 kHz/24 bit). See the operating instructions for equipment used for playback.

SFC (Sound Field Control) --- Page# 28

You can add presence and spread to surround sound according to your choice when you use SFC with Dolby Digital, DTS, PCM or analog sources.

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post #388 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

The BD10 sends a decoded 8 ch. LPCM stream to the XR700. (I can't speak for other players but this is the model that Dolby Labs expects with HDMI 1.2a. See my Dolby post on the previous page.) The receiver manages the speakers - distance settings, speaker sizes and the low pass filter which bottoms out at 80. It's all on page 33 of the Manual.

Just because it does these features, doesn't mean it does it on PCM signals. Page 33 says nothing about applying these features on 5.1 PCM signals. In fact, it appears it only applies these features to stereo PCM (as well as DD and DTS signals) - see page 35, the second 'hand' notation, under step 3, under setting speakers and their sizes.
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post #389 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

The XR700 expects the player to decode into LPCM all the audio signal it sends by HDMI just as it decodes all the video. No bitstream. The receiver will accept audio bitstream for decoding via the digital audio inputs - coax or optical.

Dana

Im not sure if thats 100% true. If that were the case then what about a standard DVD playing DTS 6.1??? The Panny player only decodes standard DVD's up to 5.1.
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post #390 of 3041 Old 11-30-2006, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

Just because it does these features, doesn't mean it does it on PCM signals. Page 33 says nothing about applying these features on 5.1 PCM signals. In fact, it appears it only applies these features to stereo PCM (as well as DD and DTS signals) - see page 35, the second 'hand' notation, under step 3, under setting speakers and their sizes.

That second "bullet" subparagraph to which you refer on page 35 applies to "When you set the front speakers (LR) as 'Large.'"

Dana

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