5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 07:02 PM
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Has it been established whether the STR-DG1000 allows processing of 8 channel PCM? i.e. what level is it?
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post #542 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rieper View Post

THX Select2 is the reason for the premium price. However, I've seen the 804 going for $799 from authorized dealers. So something new is coming real soon, I suspect.

By the way, I spoke too soon with regards to TrueHD on HDMI 1.1 which the Onkyo has. Apparently, you need HDMI 1.3 input on your receiver in order to get TrueHD via HDMI. I just did a double-check and the 1st page on this thread shows this to be the case.

I would get the cheapest HDMI 1.1 receiver which has bass management 10db gain on LFE channel to compensate for LPCM blu-ray titles.

Reiper,
Does the onkyo 674 or 804 have the LFE issue? or does it work the way it should?
How about bass managment and trim adjustments?

Thanks
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post #543 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBlacklow View Post

FWIW, I just ordered the STRDG1000 (very good price at a place that rhymes with "may and car"), so I guess you'll be getting a report on it in a couple of days. I'm not confident on the LFE issue and so was leaning towards the Denon, but my Jewish side (curse you, dad!) couldn't pass up a couple hundred dollar price difference. We'll see how that affects my HT geek cred.

What made you choose this one? Just the price difference? I haven't seen much about that receiver one way or the other.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #544 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBlacklow View Post

Unless there's something really special worth the extra $300.

The 2807 has Audyssey MultEQxt room correction, the 2307CI does not. I'd easily pay $300 for that one feature.

Sanjay

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post #545 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

What made you choose this one? Just the price difference? I haven't seen much about that receiver one way or the other.

The cNet review placed it at roughly the same level as the Denon 2307CI, and it explicitly states that it does 1080p and 8-channel PCM. In addition, spending $1000 or more on a 2807 wasn't really an option for me, and $800 was stretching it.

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post #546 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBlacklow View Post

The cNet review placed it at roughly the same level as the Denon 2307CI, and it explicitly states that it does 1080p and 8-channel PCM. In addition, spending $1000 or more on a 2807 wasn't really an option for me, and $800 was stretching it.

I'll be looking out for your feedback.

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post #547 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 08:20 PM
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Question for Lindahl, KMO, sdurani, or Bob P:

What would happen if one were to connect a PS3 (with it's HDMI 1.3 output) to a receiver with HDMI 1.1 switching, and connect that to a TV with HDMI 1.3 inputs?

Would the signal revert to HDMI 1.1 and lose the 48-bit (deep color) information?
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post #548 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 08:27 PM
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Sorry peeps. I am just one person researching nearly $4K worth of LCD+AVR+SPK.

I am on the 5th page of this wonderful thread but still don't know what the Onk674 doesn't do that I might want. It has the DPLIIx/multi-ch-Audessy-delay-bass, etc. processing of an incoming LPCM 7.1 over HDMI 1.1. I assume that it amp outs the 7.1. But I have read that it doesn't make level 5 because it doesn't out 7.1 over HDMI. But where would that signal be going?

The (likely winning candidate and front runner) Sammy LN-S4695D only has two speakers. The HDMI TV 'sees' the receiver being switched from a video passthru for the SA-300x HD CATV/DVR's 1080i HDMI or component output and the SD-DVD either as 480P or upcon 1080p (either in the player or in the 674 whichever is better or the TV accepts). The HDMI TV only 'hears' in stereo so even 5.1 over HDMI is pointless.

My questions really are:
Can the 674 process 7.1 and output 7.1 discrete channels of amplified sound?
Can the 674 upconvert a 5.1 source and output 7.1 interpolated to the speakers?
If it can do so, I am golden.

BTW, my old Onk TX-36 is sitting beside me as the amp for Sirius over the internet. It's over 20 years old and drove into clipping my (brother's) Ohm Studio Reference Monitors (4 ohm) until the current limiting lamps in the monitors glowed. It is also the phono preamp for xfer of my precious analog LP collection into my PC. Sure, by today's standards its measly 36W (into 8 ohm, measured to 82W in 2 ohms) and 0.01 THD (can ANYONE hear 0.01?) and 96dB s/n (only heard if the volume is WAY up and the source is close to null) pale in comparison to any of a number of options. It's kinda like a Datsun B210 pickup truck. It ain't pretty, and it ain't too fast, and it sure ain't got no options, but it keeps on running. Someone would have to prove that another mfgr's product is worth paying almost double for nominally better. Now, if I had $20K...

Dollar for dollar, does anyone have a strong argument why I shouldn't buy the TX-SR674?

TY

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Me, I wait to jump when I see previous-state-of-the-art pricing
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post #549 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

Reiper,
Does the onkyo 674 or 804 have the LFE issue? or does it work the way it should?
How about bass managment and trim adjustments?

Thanks

I would check out what AVS Forum member Lindahl wrote here about the Onkyo 674: link
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post #550 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rieper View Post

Would the signal revert to HDMI 1.1 and lose the 48-bit (deep color) information?

Yes
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post #551 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rieper View Post

I would check out what AVS Forum member Lindahl wrote here about the Onkyo 674: link


Thanks,
That thread post linked confirms that the Onkyo 674 is a level 5 with no 7.1 or speaker managment. A deal breaker for me.

Now I wonder about the 804?
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post #552 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

Thanks,
That thread post linked confirms that the Onkyo 674 is a level 5 with no 7.1 or speaker managment. A deal breaker for me.

Now I wonder about the 804?

If you read further down the thread (which is almost 2 months old now), check what Lindahl is debating between getting:

Yamaha RX-V1700, and the Pioneer Elite VSX-81TXV.

Both offer LPCM 7.1 HDMI processing inputs, and the Yammy even has 1.2a for those wanting additional SACD compliance via HDMI.

By the way, Lindahl, which did you finally end up getting, the Pio or the Yammy?
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post #553 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rieper View Post

If you read further down the thread (which is almost 2 months old now), check what Lindahl is debating between getting:

Yamaha RX-V1700, and the Pioneer Elite VSX-81TXV.

Both offer LPCM 7.1 HDMI processing inputs, and the Yammy even has 1.2a for those wanting additional SACD compliance via HDMI.

By the way, Lindahl, which did you finally end up getting, the Pio or the Yammy?


Both the yammy and the pionners have the LFE boost issue. In which it isn't applied
correctly to LFE output.

The pionneer is supposed to have a firmware update in december to remedy this.
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post #554 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rieper View Post

Yamaha RX-V1700, and the Pioneer Elite VSX-81TXV.

Both offer LPCM 7.1 HDMI processing inputs, and the Yammy even has 1.2a for those wanting additional SACD compliance via HDMI.

The Pioneer Elites also have HDMI 1.2a. I'm not sure though if either of these receivers actually accept DSD via HDMI. There is currently nothing to test this.
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post #555 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 09:29 PM
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Rieper,
With HDMI V1.1 in the path, the HDMI V1.3 devices will revert to "standard" color instead of "deep color".

However, odds are you won't notice any difference for, oh, 3 or 4 years from now -- quite possibly more. Why? Becuse (1) the content doesn't contain that color depth to begin with -- you can't invent information that isn't there in the first place; (2) the physical display technologies can't reproduce color that finely; and (3) the key engines in the color processing path -- scalers and such -- typically ALREADY use higher bit depth in their math so that the most important ways to limit imaging artifacts by adding color depth ALREADY EXIST even though the transmission of results between devices is limited to only "standard" color.

Now make no bones about it, "Deep" color is a real advance. It is an enabling technology. But as with most such enabling technologies it doesn't make a hill of beans of difference until EVERYBODY gets their act together to take advantage of it.

EXAMPLE: HDTV enables 1920x1080i resolution for movies on home TV screens. But oops! Film production techniques (multiple transfers of film to new film) limit the resolution of film masters, and film digitizing equipment can't actually resolve that finely even from the best masters. So HDTV masters derived from film are not as resolution rich as they COULD BE. It's now several years into the HDTV revolution and this is STILL the case. Things are getting better, but the enabling technology is still ahead of the film industry's ability to take advantage of it when using physical film stock as the starting point. New digital (non-film) movie recording and processing techniques are, on the other hand, AHEAD of HDTV.

Deep color will likely have the same rocky road. Initially, marketing will overhype what it can deliver and will gloss over the reality that you can't really see any of this in real world configurations. But that doesn't make it wrong. It just makes it ahead of its time. By about 5 years.
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post #556 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 09:51 PM
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Bob,

If you connect a hdmi 1.3 player to a hdmi 1.3 device will you get the benefit of deep colour or does it have to do with the authoring of the DVD /BluRay disc itself as well?

3D Display - Epson TW9000w 3D Projector | 3D Player - Panasonic BD-110 3D player/PS3 | 3D Receiver -  Onkyo TX-NR818 | Speakers - Klipsch Reference 5.1 Speakers | PB12-NSD SVS Subwoofer

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post #557 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 10:04 PM
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dazbug,
HDMI V1.3 to V1.3 connections are capable of carrying the extra bit depth of "deep color", but if the content doesn't have any more than "standard" color or the display can't resolve more than "standard" color there's no gain.

I can carry my groceries home in the trunk of my car or I can rent a tractor trailer truck with way more room. But I don't buy more groceries than will fit in my car, and I can't fit more groceries in my fridge either. So why rent the truck?

HD-DVD and Blue Ray discs (not to mention standard DVD, standard TV, and HDTV) contain content that is only "standard" color. Current display technology is similarly limited. All this will change over time, but not for years. So although V1.3 can carry deep color, there's no deep color to carry, and displays couldn't resolve it if there was.

There is nothing wrong with HDMI V1.3, except that it is premature to tout it as providing real, practical gains for consumers today. Or next year. Or the year after....
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post #558 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 10:13 PM
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Panny XR700 results:

This was tested with the Panny BD player via HDMI and I can only assume it would also work with the PS3.
Tips for setting up the Panny BD player....
-Sound set to multi
-All speakers set to large and 0 on delay
-Dolby set to bitstream
-Dolby+ set to PCM
-DTS set to bitstream
-HDMI audio to ON

Bass management CAN be controlled while playing PCM (I can change speaker level on the fly and noticed different bass output when I set speakers from small to large).

You CAN NOT use IIX, EX or ES processing over any multi channel PCM. This includes PCM tracks on BD discs and Dolby/DTS standard DVD tracks that were decoded by the player. (if you send the bitstream from Dolby/DTS you can then process it into a 6.1/7.1 setup).

It DOES NOT appear to suffer the dreaded -10 PCM bug. (I set all speakers to large so I would only get LFE from the sub and switched back between Dolby and PCM. They appeared to be equal. Untill we have some sort of test disc I cant guarantee).

I dont want to comment too much on the sound. I just recently got the Panny BD player so already sound was different(improved greatly) from what I was used to. I havent had it long enough playing through my old receiver(an old mid level Yamaha) to see what is different now. I also have no frame of reference for a "high end" receiver. I can say highs are very crisp(it will take some getting used to but Ive heard this about Digital amps) and bass is deep and tight. Dialog is almost to clean where it sometimes shows flaws in the editing. My front 3 speakers are 4ohms and it appears to be driving them pretty good(crossed over at 80) although I havent watched an entire movie yet.

Im a little dissapointed over not being able to process IIx over 5.1 PCM. Although manual does say it will accept up to 8 channels of PCM... I guess I will have to wait for 7.1 PCM!!! Speaker level trims were limited to 1dec increments instead of .5. Auto setup with Mic was somewhat accurate(It got crossovers right and levels were pretty close, but it set all my front speakers to large... they only go down to about 45) This auto setup is good for average Joes, but nothing beats AVIA with a SPL meter.

All in all Im pretty happy!!!

Couple questions for you guys about it.
-page 22 of Panny BD player. "BD-video function sound" option. Says only when this is set to off along with PCM down conversion will sound be output higher than 48khz. This option seems to turn on and off the sounds that you get on a menu screen while switching settings. Why would this have any effect on PCM down conversion?????

-page 33 of Panny receiver. "Dual program" option. Says allows you to switch dual audio signals in Dolby Digital and DTS formats. Choices: Main, Sub or Both... factory setting- main.

Thanks!
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post #559 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 10:18 PM
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So I've seen multiple comments here stating that (essentially) the latest HDMI Denons are nearly flawless level 6 future proof receivers, however, I've not been able to determine which models those are.

I'm presuming that the high-end boucoup $ recievers are fine, but I'm pretty much looking into something a bit more down to earth.

$699 Denon 887 (current fav)
$1099 Denon AVR-987 (if I must...)

I'd been seriously considering the Onkyo 674, for $699, but I've always had Denon equiptment (OK, if you count my ~17yr old DRA435) and I'm nervous about the Onkyo being only a level 5 future proof system.

Could someone confirm the 887 is level 6 and that offers dedicated 0-15dB analogue SW gain (to address the LFE issue)?

Steve
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post #560 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 10:53 PM
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Final question from me regarding the Onkyo 674 receiver:

Tonight, I placed a Hybrid Stereo SACD in my PS3 which I have connected to my Onkyo's HDMI 1.1 input.

I noticed the PS3 shows an SACD 2-channel track and a regular CD track playlist. So I decided to select the SACD track playlist. Well, to my amazement it played perfectly. For those who care, the title was The Red Hot Ray Brown Trio Hybrid Stereo SACD. By the way, I made sure I chose the SACD track, and not the CD track.

If I'm reading the 1st page of this thread correctly, don't you need a receiver with HDMI 1.2 in order for SACD DSD format to play correctly? How was I able to play my SACD disc on my PS3 connected to my Onkyo's HDMI 1.1 input? Is it actually downconverting the audio without my knowing it?

Anyone?

p.s. the 1st page of this thread also states:

Quote:


Annotation:

There are currently no 7.1 channel sources of audio over HDMI.


Well, doesn't the PS3 output 7.1 LPCM audio over HDMI with titles like Resistance and the upcoming Lair? Are videogames not considered audio? Just a little quip of mine, nothing to get hysterical over
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post #561 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 11:02 PM
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Rieper,
The PS3 apparently converts SACD's DSD format digital audio to PCM format digital audio which CAN be passed over HDMI V1.1. There is no loss of quality in this (comments from some purists notwithstanding).

The Oppo 970 standard def DVD player does the same thing to pass full quality SACD over HDMI V1.1
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post #562 of 3041 Old 12-04-2006, 11:03 PM
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how does DTS-HD, DOLBY HD fall into this future proof thing?

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post #563 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Rieper,
The PS3 apparently converts SACD's DSD format digital audio to PCM format digital audio which CAN be passed over HDMI V1.1. There is no loss of quality in this (comments from some purists notwithstanding).

Still think that's a little strong. It's a bit like saying that it doesn't matter whether you do the digital-to-analogue conversion in your player or your receiver. When in fact some seem to do it better than others.

DSD->PCM conversion involves design choices about noise shaping, level adjustment, etc. If the conversion's being done in the player, you're reliant on them doing a good job of it. It's a bit like using the analogue connection, and being reliant on the player's DACs.

But if they can also pass the DSD through, then you've got two more choices - getting the receiver to do the conversion, and avoiding the conversion altogether in pure direct mode. I'd certainly prefer that - having the option to just use the player as a transport, rather than being forced to get it to do signal processing too.

I note on a PS3 thread that a forthcoming upgrade for the PS3 is going to improve its DSD>PCM conversion - which kind of makes the point for me. It's a complex task, and an art as much as a science, which can always be tweaked.

Oh, and to answer another question from earlier, the Pioneer 84 doesn't accept DSD over its HDMI 1.2a interfaces, only over i.Link. Which is a great example of why you shouldn't be talking about version numbers to establish capabilities.
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post #564 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post

Oh, and to answer another question from earlier, the Pioneer 84 doesn't accept DSD over its HDMI 1.2a interfaces, only over i.Link. Which is a great example of why you shouldn't be talking about version numbers to establish capabilities.

How do you know that?
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post #565 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 05:53 AM
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Hmm, I thought I'd read it in the manual. But looking again, it's not totally explicit is it?

Every reference to SACD has a footnote saying "VSX-AX4ASi only" (I'm looking at the UK manual here - that's the 84TXSi). And that's the only one with the i.Link, suggesting that the i.Link is required for SACD. But it's not conclusive.

There is one more suggestive reference though - the "SACD Gain" option. The footnote for the SACD Gain option finishes with
Quote:


(VSX-AX2AS only - The feature is intended for use with future improvements to the HDMI interface)

This suggests it is just that the HDMI interface currently doesn't support DSD transfer, rendering the option pointless for the AX2AS/82TXS.

I wonder if they're really intending an upgrade? Probably not - they just couldn't be bothered having a different UI for the two models. But it's conceivable that lack of DSD over HDMI is just a firmware issue; maybe they've fitted a capable chip and wired it up, but haven't put handling code in place due to not feeling able to test it at this stage, what with the lack of players.

(As an aside, the SACD Gain option is an example of one of the processing difficulties in DSD->PCM conversion. PCM clips at 0dBFS; DSD allows excursions up to +3dB, and maybe even +6dB. The 3dB limit is enforced by the tools and the pressing plant, the +6dB is the theoretical limit of the format. When converting from DSD to PCM you'll probably have to lower the level by 3dB to avoid clipping. The Pioneer seems to default to a 6dB drop, but lets you raise it back up.)
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post #566 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 06:12 AM
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OK. I get it, the srtx674 won't accept 7.1 over HDMI. Ultimately a problem only with the rare 7.1 source. Over HDMI. What of digital optical/coax output direct from the player for 7.1?

I know enough to know that I don't know everything. The Pio and Yam don't do LFE. The Onk doesn't 7.1. I could live with the latter, but the LFE is my deal breaker. So where to then, in the $500-700 range?

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post #567 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 06:24 AM
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KMO wrote:

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I note on a PS3 thread that a forthcoming upgrade for the PS3 is going to improve its DSD>PCM conversion - which kind of makes the point for me. It's a complex task, and an art as much as a science, which can always be tweaked.



As a follow-up on the PS3 SACD playback comment (DSD->PCM conversion), I should ask:

Will the PS3 force DSD->PCM conversion even if the receiver can accept DSD via HDMI?
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post #568 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 06:43 AM
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Apparently, yes. At least with its current software.
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post #569 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeniVideoVici View Post

What of digital optical/coax output direct from the player for 7.1?

There aren't any 7.1 formats that work over coax/digital. (Apart from MPEG Multichannel, but virtually no receivers support that. And the two extra channels there are conventionally extra front channels anyway.)

Best case would be 6.1 as DTS-ES discrete; don't know whether any HD players will downconvert 7.1 to 6.1 DTS-ES.

Otherwise there's a matrixed downmix to Dolby Digital EX or matrixed ES. They might well do that - it's pretty easy.
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So where to then, in the $500-700 range?

Denon AVR-2307?
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post #570 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 07:16 AM
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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...44#post7517744

Start with post 400 and work your way forward.

Take a look at FilmMixer's posts starting around this point and particularly the quoted and bolded items, in regards to HDMI 1.3.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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