5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

The Pioneer Elite units are just as capable as the Denons. My 84TXSi can apply THX, DD EX, DPL IIx, 7 channel stereo, etc to 5.1 audio coming in the HDMI input. The Denon's aren't alone.

There is one difference: Somehow Denon "got it all right" out of the box in terms of all that plus LFE settings as workarounds for this LFE issue.

The PE folks are going to be waiting for a firmware and then be forced to either mail it in or take it to a service center.

What a pain in the ass for that kind of money. All of these receivers should have been ready for this before they hit the streets.

Onkyo has LFE settings ready to go out of the box as well, but somehow their 804 doesn't have a room EQ and the settings for the Audyssey on all of their units don't even hold for PCM! What kind of nonsense is that?

We still haven't even heard two peeps from Yamaha, Marantz, and some of the others out there on all of this.

Look at the last several pages or so of this thread. It's a joke and a very bad one.

You can't even throw down huge asinine amounts of money on something like the Anthem and get it done right. Even those people have this stupid LFE issue and no settings or easy way to get around it or deal with it.

It's either LFE issue, missing features, PCM and high def audio doesn't get the benefit of DSPs or room EQ, and on on and on with stupid crap that just shouldn't be.

I've been in almost every major leading thread and it's a big mess! I don't know if I CAN buy something now if I wanted to! And I know others around here feel the same way.

This SUCKS.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #632 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

That's not what the 82/84 manual says though. There is a note like in the 81's manual for SACD gain.

This next note shows up repeatedly in the 82/84 manual, "a. VSX-82TXS only - SACD DIRECT is automatically selected with SACD sources." How would you get an SACD source into the 82 for that note to apply to it other than via HDMI?

Hmm, that's interesting. A real difference there. The US manual suggests the 82 can receive SACD DSD somehow, but not convert it to PCM. Definitely not what the UK manual says.

Can't immediately make out the logic there. I agree with you then, we don't have the faintest idea whether it can do DSD over HDMI or not! They've changed all the footnotes; presumably one version is out of date. Maybe the UK manual, given what you say about the US 81 manual.
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post #633 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

There is one difference: Somehow Denon "got it all right" out of the box in terms of all that plus LFE settings as workarounds for this LFE issue.

Sorry, can't help myself. I'm going to niggle with your terminology. The Denon isn't "working around" the LFE issue. It's just behaving correctly. And you don't actually need user-tweakable LFE settings, receivers could just get it right out the box.

That's why I don't think people should be jumping to conclusions about the 674 - I suspect it does get LFE right, but has no override setting.
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post #634 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by KMO View Post

I can't help but feel that some people are leaping to unwarranted conclusions about the Onkyo 674. Who's actually saying it doesn't do bass management, EQ and delays with multichannel PCM? I'm not seeing that in the manual, and I'd be amazed if it was the case.
It certainly doesn't do Dolby Pro Logic IIx etc, but why don't you think it's doing bass management?

I'm not aware of any receiver that can't do this with multichannel PCM input. It's expected behaviour.

I hope you're right. Page 50 of the manual says that, "While the Multichannel DVD input is selected the Speaker Configurations on Page 67 are ignored, and signals from the multichannel input are fed to the speakers as they are."

The question I have is whether the PCM over HDMI is treated the same way?
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post #635 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by KMO View Post

Sorry, can't help myself. I'm going to niggle with your terminology. The Denon isn't "working around" the LFE issue. It's just behaving correctly. And you don't actually need user-tweakable LFE settings, receivers could just get it right out the box.

That's why I don't think people should be jumping to conclusions about the 674 - I suspect it does get LFE right, but has no override setting.

Hey, it was a pretty good rant. You got the idea.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #636 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by KMO View Post

Sorry, can't help myself. I'm going to niggle with your terminology. The Denon isn't "working around" the LFE issue. It's just behaving correctly. And you don't actually need user-tweakable LFE settings, receivers could just get it right out the box.

That's why I don't think people should be jumping to conclusions about the 674 - I suspect it does get LFE right, but has no override setting.


After reading the 804 manual and finding the answer to LFE, then reading the 674 and 604, and finding the information missing, I assumed it not being done correctly.
However in the 804 it is done correctly even though you can tweek it.
But we won't know until some actually can test it.

Still, I wouldn't want to shell out the big cash for it and find out you can't do anything about it.
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post #637 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

After reading the 804 manual and finding the answer to LFE, then reading the 674 and 604, and finding the information missing, I assumed it not being done correctly.

But we won't know until some actually can test it.

Still, I wouldn't want to shell out the big cash for it and find out you can't do anything about.

At least those Onkyos give you something to work with instead of absolutely nothing.

Wouldn't it be as simple as +5 or +10LFE on those things and you're all set? This is assuming you can assign individuals settings per input, which I didn't check the manual close enough on that...

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post #638 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by 1080c View Post

I hope you're right. Page 50 of the manual says that, "While the Multichannel DVD input is selected the Speaker Configurations on Page 67 are ignored, and signals from the multichannel input are fed to the speakers as they are."

The question I have is whether the PCM over HDMI is treated the same way?

That's referring to the analogue inputs, and is totally expected behaviour. To do otherwise would mean fitting a load of extra circuitry to those inputs to digitise them, so it's a real price issue, and receiver manufacturers don't bother except at the $5000+ mark.

But I see absolutely no reason to suppose that multichannel PCM has the limitations of the analogue inputs. Particularly if it explicitly tells you that about the analogue input, but doesn't say it about multichannel PCM. All receivers I know of can bass manage multichannel PCM.
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post #639 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

At least those Onkyos give you something to work with instead of absolutely nothing.

Wouldn't it be as simple as +5 or +10LFE on those things and you're all set? This is assuming you can assign individuals settings per input, which I didn't check the manual close enough on that...


It would seem you can only do this on the 804 LFE, but it looks to be correct to begin with.

In the 604 and 674 instructions, it doesn't even have the same section, nothing is mentioned about LFE as far as I could tell. So unless its done right out of the box, you can't make the adjustments.
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post #640 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by KMO View Post

That's referring to the analogue inputs, and is totally expected behaviour. To do otherwise would mean fitting a load of extra circuitry to those inputs to digitise them, so it's a real price issue, and receiver manufacturers don't bother except at the $5000+ mark.

But I see absolutely no reason to suppose that multichannel PCM has the limitations of the analogue inputs. Particularly if it explicitly tells you that about the analogue input, but doesn't say it about multichannel PCM. All receivers I know of can bass manage multichannel PCM.

My only other clue is that the chart on page 62 groups "multichannel analog" and "multichannel PCM" into the same category. Maybe I am jumping to conclusions...hopefully we'll get some real world testing that can confirm this either way because Onkyo isn't too clear in the manual.
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post #641 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by KMO View Post

The US manual suggests the 82 can receive SACD DSD somehow, but not convert it to PCM.

We can't even be sure of that. There's no disclaimer in the US manual that the DSD>PCM indicator is only for the 84. It also doesn't say that you can't change from SACD Direct on the 82, just that it's automatically selected. Until we get something that will pass DSD via HDMI I think it's a big fat unknown.
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post #642 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

Do we know what line of receivers DOES allow for the processing to hold even with LPCM and the rest of it?

Denon? Marantz? Pioneer Elite? Yamaha? A lot of those either use Audyssey or YPAO or HK uses EZ set, etc.

round and round we go...

*yes*, the Pioneer Elite AVRs *do* allow processing of hi-rez PCM via HDMI and ilink (for those that have ilink input). In my personal experience, that includes speaker delays, bass managment, DPLIIx, MCACC (room EQ including standing wave correction), and phase control, for DVD-A up to 192 kHz/24bit and SACD converted to 88.1/24bit PCM.

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Who's got it? It is pretty senseless to use nice room EQ and then it's all gone when you start dealing with the HD audio codecs, LPCM, and the rest of it.

Indeed. I can vouch that the ONLY relevant problem with the Pio 74txvi at least that I know of is the incorrect LFE handling for PCM via digital (which btw by no means means that it has crummy bass output...far from it). Application of DSP to 2-channel/multichannel PCM passed digitally, is NOT an issue for it....at least for the hi-rez PCM I'm familiar with (LPCM = standard 'linear' PCM; PPCM = lossless compressed 'packed' PCM, which gets uncompressed in the DVD-A player before output).
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post #643 of 3041 Old 12-05-2006, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

Shamus1099,
I know you said you were unsure if the panny was handling LFE correctly, but you thought it was.
Do you know if there is the option to adjust LFE in settings, just in case it doesn't apply LFE correctly?

There is no seperate setting for LFE(that I found), only sub....
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post #644 of 3041 Old 12-06-2006, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

round and round we go...

Tell me about it!


Quote:



*yes*, the Pioneer Elite AVRs *do* allow processing of hi-rez PCM via HDMI and ilink (for those that have ilink input). In my personal experience, that includes speaker delays, bass managment, DPLIIx, MCACC (room EQ including standing wave correction), and phase control, for DVD-A up to 192 kHz/24bit and SACD converted to 88.1/24bit PCM.

Great! In that case, I guess if I want to get one of these, I should wait until the firmware is out so I'm not stuck trying to find a service center and go through that hassle.


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Indeed. I can vouch that the ONLY relevant problem with the Pio 74txvi at least that I know of is the incorrect LFE handling for PCM via digital (which btw by no means means that it has crummy bass output...far from it). Application of DSP to 2-channel/multichannel PCM passed digitally, is NOT an issue for it....at least for the hi-rez PCM I'm familiar with (LPCM = standard 'linear' PCM; PPCM = lossless compressed 'packed' PCM, which gets uncompressed in the DVD-A player before output).

Excellent. This keeps the PE 84 definitely near the top of my list.


I know there's a lot of hype and muyth, but I'm really starting to think maybe waiting for HDMI 1.3 receivers is the best option after all. By then, some of these stupid kinks and oversights, if not all, should be eliminated and it just removes any doubts.

The last week or so I've spent scouring this area of the forum and I come away with this impression: We're so totally in a stopgap and transistion period it's not even funny. You can't miss it in most of the prominent threads.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #645 of 3041 Old 12-06-2006, 09:18 AM
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Planned Obsolescence is a disease promulgated by marketers to entice the willing to part with their hard earned money to grasp at bleeding edge technology that will be dulled as the state-of-the-art progresses. Those devilish MBAs are tempting us with the apple of impossiblity: future proofing our investments.

I don't mind spending the $2K+ on my display device. Will I be able to buy better next year (only a month away) for less? Sure. Will I be able to buy the Sammy LN-S4695D for under $2K? Sure. Am I willing to pay more for a nominal improvement over the quite excellent Sammy? No. It's the law of diminshing returns. Am I waiting for LED/CRT technology? Not unless I want to pay for the flaws in 1st gen tech.

Ditto (current species) 1st gen AVR. Unless I want to pay top dollar, I will not get the 10 years of performance the price must justify. There is no HDMI 1.3, unconfirmed interops are evidenced in this thread, and standards are still being set for advanced audio. $1K+ is too rich for my blood. Especially if, in two or three years, I find myself back in the blogs researching the latest offerings from those manufacturers we have been discussing.

I have always bought a step or two behind the current state-of-the-art, knowing that today's top dog will be tomorrow's under cat. One of our peers will be selling their PioE they bought this week for 40 cents on the dollar (or even less if it can't perform a specific function that only the future will bring). The PC I built from scratch kicked butt on the day I built it two years ago. Today it won't properly run MS Vista. A new graphics card will fix that. Anyone want to front me $5k for a modular amp?

As I have always said, I am an Onkyo man. The 604 for a few hundred bucks makes sense to me. In three years and another few hundred clams and I still will not have spent as much as if I had bought the Denon 2807 today. And that next gen Onkyo will have the features that the current Denon still lacks.

Dana: Thanks for the time you have spent banging your head on the wall.
Sanjay: You make my tech knowledge seem weak, no small feat.
Bandit: Cynicism is a good thing.
Sir Jedi: Keep asking the right questions

The Q that remains for me is only this, how is the LFE handled in the 604? And, does the 674 do it better? This is something I would drop another $150 for.

A fool and his money soon has a pile of last year's state-of-the-art equipment
Me, I wait to jump when I see previous-state-of-the-art pricing
Mamma didn't raise no fool
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post #646 of 3041 Old 12-06-2006, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by VeniVideoVici View Post

Planned Obsolescence is a disease promulgated by marketers to entice the willing to part with their hard earned money to grasp at bleeding edge technology that will be dulled as the state-of-the-art progresses. Those devilish MBAs are tempting us with the apple of impossiblity: future proofing our investments.

Exactly right.


Quote:



I don't mind spending the $2K+ on my display device. Will I be able to buy better next year (only a month away) for less? Sure. Will be able to buy the Sammy LN-S4695D for under $2K? Sure. Am I willing to pay more for a nominal improvement over the quite excellent Sammy? No. It's the law of diminshing returns. Am I waiting for LED/CRT technology? Not unless I want to pay for the flaws in 1st gen tech.

So true!


Quote:



Ditto (current species) 1st gen AVR. Unless I want to pay top dollar, I will not get the 10 years of performance the price must justify. There is no HDMI 1.3, unconfirmed interops are evidenced in this thread, and standards are still being set for advanced audio. $1K+ is too rich for my blood. Especially if, in two or three years, I find myself back in the blogs researching the latest offerings from those manufacturers we have been discussing.

You have succinctly described the fence I am sitting on right now perfectly.

Quote:



I have always bought a step or two behind the current state-of-the-art, knowing that today's top dog will be tomorrow's under cat. One of our peers will be selling their PioE they bought this week for 40 cents on the dollar (or even less if it can't perform a specific function that only the future will bring). The PC I built from scratch kicked butt on the day I built it two years ago. Today it won't properly run MS Vista. A new graphics card will fix that. Anyone want to front me $5k for a modular amp?

As I have always said, I am an Onkyo man. The 604 for a few hundred bucks makes sense to me. In three years and another few hundred clams and I still will not have spent as much as if I had bought the Denon 2807. And that next gen Onkyo will have the features that the current Denon still lacks.

I may just get one of those Onkyos on sale as a stopgap and say the hell with it. It's still a nice upgrade and takes care of me on 5.1 LPCM across the boards.

It'll be "good enough" and if HDMI 1.3 really comes out and I see something where I say: "Wow, I need that!" then I'll simply sell the Onkyo or whatever and make the necessary moves.

I'm definitely getting the idea that spending big money right now would be a terrible mistake and frankly: Doesn't do you any good anyways. Go into the Anthem thread for proof of that.



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Dana, KMO, Lindahl, Bob Parisau, sanjay, and a few others all deserve major props.


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It's only cynicism when it's actually proven wrong.


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That goes for everyone!


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The Q that remains for me is only this, how is the LFE handled in the 604? And, does the 674 do it better? This is something I would drop another $150 for.

Looks identical to me but I might be missing something. Those Onkyos all have that menu with +5 or -5 incremenet settings for LFE, don't they? I know the 804 does. I've looked through that manual myself.

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post #647 of 3041 Old 12-06-2006, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by 1080c View Post

Does this sum it up?

Yes. Ideally we'd all want bass management for HDMI audio handled in the receiver, the same way it handles all other sources. The only other option I would consider is using the bass management in the player. Leaving the signal alone (i.e., sending a full range channel to each speaker) would be out of the question for me.

Sanjay

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post #648 of 3041 Old 12-06-2006, 09:55 AM
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Looks identical to me but I might be missing something. Those Onkyos all have that menu with +5 or -5 incremenet settings for LFE, don't they? I know the 804 does. I've looked through that manual myself.

Looks like the 604 and 674 don't have the menu, at least in the manual, it's not the same as the 804 (which does have increment settings for LFE, and is set correctly out of the box).
Since we now can assume we can't adjust LFE in the 604 or 674, can we assume they both got it right to start with, since it appears the 804 does?

We need someone who physically owns one to tell us...
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post #649 of 3041 Old 12-06-2006, 09:58 AM
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Indeed. I can vouch that the ONLY relevant problem with the Pio 74txvi at least that I know of is the incorrect LFE handling for PCM via digital (which btw by no means means that it has crummy bass output...far from it). Application of DSP to 2-channel/multichannel PCM passed digitally, is NOT an issue for it....at least for the hi-rez PCM I'm familiar with (LPCM = standard 'linear' PCM; PPCM = lossless compressed 'packed' PCM, which gets uncompressed in the DVD-A player before output).

Does the pionneer have LFE trim settings. Since it doesn't do it right can we make an adjustment, or does it have the issue and can't be adjusted?

I assumed the latter since there is a firmware reportedly comming soon.

Once that firmware is updated, then I guess it would be safe to say the Pioneer Elites and Denons are the way to go...Expensive way, but you get the most PCM for the buck....

Head goes back to spinning......
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post #650 of 3041 Old 12-06-2006, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post


Once that firmware is updated, then I guess it would be safe to say the Pioneer Elites and Denons are the way to go...Expensive way, but you get the most PCM for the buck....

Head goes back to spinning......

At that rate, you may as well wait at least another month and see what news comes out of CES.

That's what I'm going to do.

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles...i_versions.php

^^ Good read.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #651 of 3041 Old 12-06-2006, 12:46 PM
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Excellent. This keeps the PE 84 definitely near the top of my list.

Just to reiterate, I really am talking about the 74, not 84, though I would be surprised if they *lost* functionality in the 80 series (though the Elites did lose bass management of the multichannel analog inputs, in moving from their earlier top of the line model to the 70 series -- maybe even the 50 series, not sure. I read here that THX2 cert requires bass manageable multichannel analog inputs, so maybe that's the key to the change -- not sure if any current models are THX2 certified)
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post #652 of 3041 Old 12-06-2006, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

At that rate, you may as well wait at least another month and see what news comes out of CES.

That's what I'm going to do.

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles...i_versions.php

^^ Good read.

Bandit,

If one reads the article, and my opinion you so graciously quoted, the current crop of (near) future proof AVRs are going to sit on the shelf gathering dust on their way to the clearance rack. Take my advice, don't look at the CES eye (ear) candy, or you will be tempted to spend $1.7K on an AVR that won't do something.

Editor - The following is NOT price talk, merely an example. The numbers are NOT accurate, and while a consumer might actually realize a purchase at these prices, the caveat for the emptor is that low prices are too often refurbished, open box, grey market, or perfectly new from a non-authorized dealer (no support, see Denon). The numbers simply illustrate the underlying argument.

Let's say I purchase an Onkyo "low-end" SR-TX604 for $300 today (I haven't seen quite this low price, but close). It is an extremely servicable 7.1 with the ability to drive audiophile speakers in multi-room mode for when you want music in your theater area, while supplying 5.1 for A/V needs; or set it for 7.1 when you finally get a proper source.

Further posit that I can upgrade in two years to the then equivalent to the TX674 (relative in value to the future market), call it a 684, for the same $600 a 674 can be purchased for today (seen at authorized B&M, esp. easy w/ purchase of TV). This mid-line '684' would by then be HDMI 1.3 (2.0?) and fully process 8-ch PCM from a $79 RadioShack rebranded combo HD-DVD/Blu-Ray/SACD/TrueHD/etc-HD/DVD +- RW/PVR/HD-STB; with user defined LFE and AudessyEQ ver.next and take in DVI and output 1080P w/o overscan over HDMI.

Or, for that same $900+ (unlikely today, but probable after the release of a competitor's more feature rich model at a similar price point in a month or two) spent over two years on two Onkyos I could buy the Denon 2807, or a PioE, or... But fast forward two years and the above-mentioned HD-DVD/BR/etcHD player will have nowhere to plug into to fully implement its output.

If I go with the 604 and the '684', I will have a perfect AVR for my bedroom, and will have to buy a 32" 1080x1920 plasma for a $1.99
and will have a great 'new' HT AVR feeding my Sammy 4695 with that elusive 7.1 source over HDMI (yes, I know the Sammy only gets 2-ch audio).

Still sitting on the fence, Bandit? I have fallen on the floor laughing my a$$ off at the MBAs. The dollar signs are the cash I kept in my back pockets. Two AVRs for the price of one.

Lindahl & KMO, I apologize for not giving you the props in the post above (with Dana, Sanjay, Jedi.Knight and none too cynical Q of BanditZ), although I had offered praise to you before, I do so again. Fantastic thread initiated in expert mode by the former, and wonderful insight by the latter.

Kudos to Shamus1099, Krabapple (Simpsons or Rascals?), 1080c, StereoDude, misterJensen, JBlacklow, and the rest of you who inspire the likes of a professional such as Bob Pariseau to expend his energies for our benefit.

My friends refer to me as the Shell answer man. I am humbled by this thread's cohort.

Gracias, senors, senoras y senoritas

A fool and his money soon has a pile of last year's state-of-the-art equipment
Me, I wait to jump when I see previous-state-of-the-art pricing
Mamma didn't raise no fool
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post #653 of 3041 Old 12-06-2006, 12:55 PM
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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=762745

You all might want to keep an eye on that thread. Read AVSRichard's post.





Quote:
Originally Posted by VeniVideoVici View Post

Bandit,

If one reads the article, and my opinion you so graciously quoted, the current crop of (near) future proof AVRs are going to sit on the shelf gathering dust on their way to the clearance rack. Take my advice, don't look at the CES eye (ear) candy, or you will be tempted to spend $1.7K on an AVR that won't do something.

I know. There's a lot of gut checks going on here, believe me.


Quote:



Editor - The following is NOT price talk, merely an example. The numbers are NOT accurate, and while a consumer might actually realize a purchase at these prices, the caveat for the emptor is that low prices are too often refurbished, open box, grey market, or perfectly new from a non-authorized dealer (no support, see Denon). The numbers simply illustrate the underlying argument.

Let's say I purchase an Onkyo "low-end" SR-TX604 for $300 today (I haven't seen quite this low price, but close). It is an extremely servicable 7.1 with the ability to drive audiophile speakers in multi-room mode for when you want music in your theater area, while supplying 5.1 for A/V needs; or set it for 7.1 when you finally get a proper source.

Further posit that I can upgrade in two years to the then equivalent to the TX674 (relative in value to the future market), call it a 684, for the same $600 a 674 can be purchased for today (seen at authorized B&M, esp. easy w/ purchase of TV). This mid-line '684' would by then be HDMI 1.3 (2.0?) and fully process 8-ch PCM from a combo HD-DCD/Blu-Ray/SACD/TrueHD/etc-HD, with user defined LFE and AudessyEQ ver.next.

Or, for that same $900+ (unlikely today, but probable after the release of a competitor's more feature rich model at a similar price point in a month or two) spent over two years on two Onkyos I could buy the Denon 2807, or a PioE, or... But fast forward two years and the above-mentioned HD-DVD/BR/etcHD player will have nowhere to plug into to fully implement its output.

If I go with the 604 and the '684', I will have a perfect AVR for my bedroom, and will have to buy a 32" 1080x1920 plasma for a $1.99
and will have a great 'new' HT AVR feeding my Sammy 4695 with that elusive 7.1 source over HDMI (yes, I know the Sammy only gets 2-ch audio).

Still sitting on the fence, Bandit? I have fallen on the floor laughing my a$$ off at the MBAs. The dollar signs are the cash I kept in my back pockets. Two AVRs for the price of one.

I'm feelin' ya. Big time. I think the fence is about to cause a very serious injury at this rate.

Quote:


Lindahl & KMO, I apologize for not giving you the props in the post above (with Dana, Sanjay, Jedi.Knight and none too cynical Q of BanditZ), although I had offered praise to you before, I do so again. Fantastic thread initiated in expert mode by the former, and wonderful insight by the latter.




The compliments definitely deserve to go back your way as well. I hope you post more often, in general, and feel free to drop me a line via PM anytime you like.

I appreciate this post of yours. A LOT.

Quote:



Kudos to Shamus1099, Krabapple (Simpsons or Rascals?), 1080c, StereoDude, misterJensen, JBlacklow, and the rest of you who inspire the likes of a professional such as Bob Pariseau to expend his energies for our benefit.


Quote:


My friends refer to me as the Shell answer man. I am humbled by this thread's cohort.

Gracias, senors, senoras y senoritas

Ditto!

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #654 of 3041 Old 12-06-2006, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

Does the pionneer have LFE trim settings. Since it doesn't do it right can we make an adjustment, or does it have the issue and can't be adjusted?

LFE passed *digitally* to the Pioneers cannot be adjusted separately in the AVR. There is however an upward trim adjustment option for the ANALOG subwoofer input on the multichannel panel -- which applies to just the LFE *if* you haven't applied bass management in the player first. But using the 6-channel analog panel denies you the option of using many of the Elite's DSP functions...including bass managment.

Quote:


I assumed the latter since there is a firmware reportedly comming soon.

Yup. But we'll have to see how well that fix is implemented. Bob Pariseau has outlined some ways that they could screw it up.
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post #655 of 3041 Old 12-06-2006, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeniVideoVici View Post

Lindahl & KMO, I apologize for not giving you the props in the post above (with Dana, Sanjay, Jedi.Knight and none too cynical Q of BanditZ), although I had offered praise to you before, I do so again. Fantastic thread initiated in expert mode by the former, and wonderful insight by the latter.

Thanks for the kind words. I agree, the Onkyo 604 seems like a great receiver if you want to hold off on 7.1 until things settle down (the Panasonic XR57, too).
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post #656 of 3041 Old 12-06-2006, 02:39 PM
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HDMI 1.3 Player -> HDMI 1.2 Receiver -> HDMI 1.3 Display

If you have the above configuration, what is the connection between the Player and the Display? Will it be a HDMI 1.2 or 1.3 connection?

veni, vidi, vici
You can't understand something until you can measure it with numbers.
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post #657 of 3041 Old 12-06-2006, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeniVideoVici View Post

Bandit,

If one reads the article, and my opinion you so graciously quoted, the current crop of (near) future proof AVRs are going to sit on the shelf gathering dust on their way to the clearance rack. Take my advice, don't look at the CES eye (ear) candy, or you will be tempted to spend $1.7K on an AVR that won't do something.

Editor - The following is NOT price talk, merely an example. The numbers are NOT accurate, and while a consumer might actually realize a purchase at these prices, the caveat for the emptor is that low prices are too often refurbished, open box, grey market, or perfectly new from a non-authorized dealer (no support, see Denon). The numbers simply illustrate the underlying argument.

Let's say I purchase an Onkyo "low-end" SR-TX604 for $300 today (I haven't seen
quite this low price, but close). It is an extremely servicable 7.1 with the ability to drive audiophile speakers in multi-room mode for when you want music in your theater area, while supplying 5.1 for A/V needs; or set it for 7.1 when you finally get a proper source.

Further posit that I can upgrade in two years to the then equivalent to the TX674 (relative in value to the future market), call it a 684, for the same $600 a 674 can be purchased for today (seen at authorized B&M, esp. easy w/ purchase of TV). This mid-line '684' would by then be HDMI 1.3 (2.0?) and fully process 8-ch PCM from a $79 RadioShack rebranded combo HD-DVD/Blu-Ray/SACD/TrueHD/etc-HD/DVD +- RW/PVR/HD-STB; with user defined LFE and AudessyEQ ver.next and take in DVI and output 1080P w/o overscan over HDMI.

Or, for that same $900+ (unlikely today, but probable after the release of a competitor's more feature rich model at a similar price point in a month or two) spent over two years on two Onkyos I could buy the Denon 2807, or a PioE, or... But fast forward two years and the above-mentioned HD-DVD/BR/etcHD player will have nowhere to plug into to fully implement its output.

If I go with the 604 and the '684', I will have a perfect AVR for my bedroom, and will have to buy a 32" 1080x1920 plasma for a $1.99
and will have a great 'new' HT AVR feeding my Sammy 4695 with that elusive 7.1 source over HDMI (yes, I know the Sammy only gets 2-ch audio).

Still sitting on the fence, Bandit? I have fallen on the floor laughing my a$$ off at the MBAs. The dollar signs are the cash I kept in my back pockets. Two AVRs for the price of one.

Lindahl & KMO, I apologize for not giving you the props in the post above (with Dana, Sanjay, Jedi.Knight and none too cynical Q of BanditZ), although I had offered praise to you before, I do so again. Fantastic thread initiated in expert mode by the former, and wonderful insight by the latter.

Kudos to Shamus1099, Krabapple (Simpsons or Rascals?), 1080c, StereoDude, misterJensen, JBlacklow, and the rest of you who inspire the likes of a professional such as Bob Pariseau to expend his energies for our benefit.

My friends refer to me as the Shell answer man. I am humbled by this thread's cohort.

Gracias, senors, senoras y senoritas

Thanks for the Mention...

And your post makes alot of sense.
I keep tossing it around...do I go with the Denon 2807 and break the bank. (not
a rich man here by any means, but do love to home theater it up!).

Or do I go with your theory, might not be the best AVR right now or the most feature laden, but will get me going with the PS3 and some blu ray movies and HD movies for a year or so and then sell it and splurge for the next "one up" version and sell the still fairly new slightly used 604 or panny....
All probably for less than the price of the Denon now.

Leaning more towards your line of thought....


That onkyo 604 is looking better and better. Only If I new it Handled the LFE correctly that might just swing me over the top. Especially since it seems the 804 handles things right, and the are in the same model chain.
We need a way of find out somebody must have one on these boards.
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post #658 of 3041 Old 12-06-2006, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

Or do I go with your theory, might not be the best AVR right now or the most feature laden, but will get me going with the PS3 and some blu ray movies and HD movies for a year or so and then sell it and splurge for the next "one up" version and sell the still fairly new slightly used 604 or panny....
All probably for less than the price of the Denon now.

Leaning more towards your line of thought....

Hence my purchase of the Sony. It's a wild card compared to some of the other AVRs from this thread, but it looks like Level 6 to me. I'll find out about the LFE issue too. And thanks to UPS.com, I can say that you guys will know something about it tommorrow evening. Well, you and my unfortunate neighbors.

"When I get sad I just stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story."
--Barney Stinson, How I Met Your Mother


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post #659 of 3041 Old 12-06-2006, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeniVideoVici View Post

My friends refer to me as the Shell answer man. I am humbled by this thread's cohort.

Gracias, senors, senoras y senoritas

Estoy de acuerdo...kudos to all the brains on this forum that are helping me sort it out in my brain (not an easy task). I am very disappointed with the all AVR manufacturers who have made it so difficult to sort through this mess, and thankful you guys are around to help set the record straight. This is THE source on the Internet for this discussion.

I agree with your calculations VeniVideoVici (and look forward to that Radio Shack special!!!) and that's part of the reason I bought the Onkyo 604, but alas no LPCM sources to test the LFE issue...hopefully Santa will be straightening that out. I still don't know how I feel about a receiver that does not have any LPCM processing (if that is indeed the case).

As for Denon, everyone mentions the 2807 but what about the Denon 887? It retails at $699 and seems to have most of the LPCM functionality of the 2807. I know it's double the Onkyo 604, but it seems like the best deal for a Level 6 receiver.
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post #660 of 3041 Old 12-06-2006, 04:24 PM
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Those of you interested in the Onkyos really should go to www.onkyousa.com and just download the PDF manuals. It's interesting to note that the 604 and 674 share the same manual.

At quick glance, the differences I see between the 604 and 674 are:

- About 5 watts per channel more for the 674.

- The 604 allows everything to be output via one set of component videos. The 674 lets you output everything through an HDMI cable. (This is an important difference for video conversion.)

- They both have Audyssey EQ, which is fantastic especially at these prices points.

- Both have 2 HDMI 1.1 inputs, one output.

And really that's about it. I'd check the manual to make sure you're clear on the behavior of the HDMIS and that's probably about the only thing you need to worry about.


The 804 has about 10-15 more watts per channel, video upconversion capabilities, THX Select 2 certification, maybe an extra optical input and a few odds and ends like that... no Audyssey which I think is downright senseless, and that's about it.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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