5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 3041 Old 10-23-2006, 08:48 PM
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Can any of the current receivers decode Dolby True HD and DTS' lossless audio? If not then I'll wait for HDMI 1.3.
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post #62 of 3041 Old 10-23-2006, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Can any of the current receivers decode Dolby True HD and DTS' lossless audio?

No, those products are still 6-9 months off.
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post #63 of 3041 Old 10-23-2006, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt_Strider View Post

Can any of the current receivers decode Dolby True HD and DTS' lossless audio? If not then I'll wait for HDMI 1.3.

Check back next year in October, 2007..
Dolby and DTS have yet to release their final electrical specifications, it is impossible for an AVR brand to fully implement a standard not yet 100% confirmed or certified..
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post #64 of 3041 Old 10-24-2006, 02:54 AM
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Hello everyone,
I contacted Marantz Germany to ask them if my SR 7001 is "future proof"
The local product manager stated that BR and HD-DVD devices with HDMI 1.3 are "designed in such a compatible manner, that DTS-HD and Dolby True HD will be converted in LPCM, which my receiver could decode and will enable me to enjoy lossless 7.1."
No plans for a Hardware Upgrade to HDMI 1.3 are announced or planned at this point in time. But they did not rule it out.

I hope this info is of use to some of you guys who are looking at buying a current receiver.
Cheers
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post #65 of 3041 Old 10-24-2006, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

... it is impossible for an AVR brand to fully implement a standard not yet 100% confirmed or certified..

bu.. bu.. bu.. but.. but but.. they implemented HDMI! (sic)



ok, so maybe they don't consider going from 1.1 to 1.2 to 1.3 half baked... come to think of it, DD could release a DD True HD 1.0, and and DTS Master 1.0, then we'd really be up sh*t creek

Boo!
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post #66 of 3041 Old 10-24-2006, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt_Strider View Post

Can any of the current receivers decode Dolby True HD and DTS' lossless audio? If not then I'll wait for HDMI 1.3.

It is my understanding that these are the audio codecs on HD & BR DVDs.
And that these are sent to the receivers via PCM which means the receiver does not have to do anything special to play back correctly. Meaning a receiver with HDMI 1.3 is unnecessary for the playback of DD TrueHD and DTS HD. Correct?
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post #67 of 3041 Old 10-24-2006, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

On the whole, the best future proof receiver may still be a basic analog 7.1 channel pre-amp (which I'm not sure exists).

It exists. The BelCanto Pre6 does it for me.

Quote:


You could couple this with the latest processor out there and not re-purchase everything each time.

Ah! It's the stand-alone processors that do not exist, afaik.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #68 of 3041 Old 10-24-2006, 09:16 AM
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Let's just say, for the sake of argument, there was a receiver available today using HDMI 1.3.

Will the receiver be able to process HDMI 1.3 and then send the pure video signal to a TV that doesn't use HDMI 1.3?

Basically, I have a Mits WD-52628 that I don't plan on replacing until it dies outside of warranty (about 3 years). That being said, I'm wondering if I waited and bought a receiver that can do TrueDolby 7.1 via HDMI 1.3 if it will spaz out trying to send out to my old TV.

I have no stereo system as it stands right now and don't want to spend a year waiting for a product that won't even be compatible.
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post #69 of 3041 Old 10-24-2006, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strange View Post

"designed in such a compatible manner, that DTS-HD and Dolby True HD will be converted in LPCM, which my receiver could decode and will enable me to enjoy lossless 7.1."

Right, but did s/he mean through the analog or HDMI connections for 7.1 PCM? That's the key.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clangro View Post

That being said, I'm wondering if I waited and bought a receiver that can do TrueDolby 7.1 via HDMI 1.3 if it will spaz out trying to send out to my old TV.

Technically, this shouldn't be a problem. However, until such receivers are on the market, who knows. Manufacturers are doing a poor job of HDMI implementation, and aren't exactly adamant about correcting issues (just look at the HK receivers and the cable boxes). The overly complicated handshaking is mostly to blame, though. This will get better over time. Even SPDIF was buggy long after conception.

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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

In the end, the meridian and theta style setups are EXTREMELY expensive ways to skin this cat. In the end, the card-cage computer style setups would only be seriously forward compatible if you could gut them almost completely for new boards... then of course the cost would end up being almost the same as a new receiver anyway.

Correct. The upgradable pre/pros are extremely expensive. Even the upgrades are more expensive than mid-fi processors. Probably akin to how its cheaper to buy a computer from Dell (HP, etc.) than it is to build the same computer, piecewise. Mass marketing reduces cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

On the whole, the best future proof receiver may still be a basic analog 7.1 channel pre-amp (which I'm not sure exists). You could couple this with the latest processor out there and not re-purchase everything each time.

And what happens when you have more than one source? Or you want to do some processing on the analog inputs, like upmixing 5.1 to 7.1 (which is all done in the digital domain)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

In the end it is often pure speculation that the DVD, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray player will do a worse job of D/A conversion than the processor.

It's not pure speculation, it's a general truth. In fact, one of the next generation HD-DVD players only has HDMI out. You have to buy the $1000 player (vs $500) to get analog and SPDIF outs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Video switching and audio switching should also be done in a replaceable separate box so I don't have to get a whole new receiver every time hdmi 1.x comes out.

This would be nice once HDMI becomes the standard video and audio interface. Just grab a monoprice 5x1 switcher, have the audio processors and video processors have selectable memories instead of selectable inputs, and you're golden. However, as long as component, SPDIF, and analog stereo are prominant interfaces, I doubt we'll see this. The downside to this is not having memories associated with sources and making a universal remote with macros a requirement (which isn't exactly a bad thing, considering you save cost elsewhere). These solutions also won't sell as well. People often look for a one-box solution, which is why we're seeing receivers with video processors - the market demands it. Same reason why seperate pre/pros and amplification only really exist in the high-end market.
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post #70 of 3041 Old 10-24-2006, 10:11 AM
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Ensuring Compatibility Between Next-Generation High-Definition Disc Players and Your A/V System: http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...HD_avrs_1.html

I think some of you have already read this article from Dolby's web site. Below is a quote from page 3 we may want to note:

"To decode these (DD Plus and TrueHD) bitstreams, the A/V decoder will need to support the updated data protocols, as well as incorporate these new decoding algorithms. In addition, it will be necessary to select HD discs in which the content maker has permitted the core 5.1 or 7.1 audio bitstreams to bypass the player's mixing process and be sent directly to the digital outputs of the player. We expect that certain HD discs will permit this, but they may represent a minority of titles. In the end, the sound quality will be essentially the same as that of audio decoded within the player as PCM signals and transported through a current-generation HDMI connection to the A/V receiver."

If this is true in the end, HDMI Ver1.3 will be practically useless at least with respect to audio. What do you think?
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post #71 of 3041 Old 10-24-2006, 10:55 AM
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If one buys the new Toshiba A2 player (which has no 5.1 analog audio outputs) How does one listen to TrueHD audio over HDMI?

Is there a list of receivers that currently have HDMI inputs with TrueHD audio capability?
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post #72 of 3041 Old 10-24-2006, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Found this thread and felt it was very relevant.

Answers to HD-A1 and HD-XA1 Audio Questions

Rgrele, you get TrueHD over HDMI by selecting PCM streams. The original post talks about the various support for PCM over HDMI and what kinds of receivers will handle it with different levels of support.
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post #73 of 3041 Old 10-24-2006, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

Found this thread and felt it was very relevant.

Answers to HD-A1 and HD-XA1 Audio Questions

Very well-written information. Thanks.
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post #74 of 3041 Old 10-24-2006, 02:00 PM
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Thanks, Lindahl, that was very helpful. I hadn't stumbled on to that as yet.
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post #75 of 3041 Old 10-25-2006, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strange View Post

"designed in such a compatible manner, that DTS-HD and Dolby True HD will be converted in LPCM, which my receiver could decode and will enable me to enjoy lossless 7.1."


Right, but did s/he mean through the analog or HDMI connections for 7.1 PCM? That's the key.

Yes, PCM via HDMI.
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post #76 of 3041 Old 10-25-2006, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strange View Post

Yes, PCM via HDMI.

Great, I've updated the original post to reflect this.
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post #77 of 3041 Old 10-25-2006, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

Great, I've updated the original post to reflect this.


BTW, Lindahl have you bought yet? Just curious....

-Tom
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post #78 of 3041 Old 10-26-2006, 07:50 AM
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Yes, Lindahl. I was relieved to read Marantz's answer.
Now all I have to do is find a BR-Player with DTS-HD or Dolby True HD and verify it
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post #79 of 3041 Old 10-26-2006, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strange View Post

Yes, Lindahl. I was relieved to read Marantz's answer.
Now all I have to do is find a BR-Player with DTS-HD or Dolby True HD and verify it

Of course you could also verify it via an HD-DVD player....
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post #80 of 3041 Old 10-26-2006, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bwclark View Post

Of course you could also verify it via an HD-DVD player....

Actually, neither HD-DVD player nor Blue-Ray player have 7.1 capabilities. You'll have to way for the Panasonic Blue-Ray player. Even then, I'm not sure if there's even 7.1 media out there yet.
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post #81 of 3041 Old 10-26-2006, 10:46 AM
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Hey Lindahl,

I'm more of a video guy so excuse my newbie question.

Per your list, the Pioneer 82TSX (which I bought this week) is a level 5 receiver. How did you come to categorize it as such? I have read the manual and didn't see anything that made me secure knowing that it would "output 7.1 channels of uncompressed lossless HDMI PCM formats".

Thanks in advance for your time!
Mel
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post #82 of 3041 Old 10-26-2006, 09:22 PM
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Can any of these receivers do bass management over the HDMI input?

Also how is the Marantz sound versus H/K?

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post #83 of 3041 Old 10-27-2006, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmpharmacist View Post

Hey Lindahl,

I'm more of a video guy so excuse my newbie question.

Per your list, the Pioneer 82TSX (which I bought this week) is a level 5 receiver. How did you come to categorize it as such? I have read the manual and didn't see anything that made me secure knowing that it would "output 7.1 channels of uncompressed lossless HDMI PCM formats".

Thanks in advance for your time!
Mel

I called Pioneer tech assist and that is what they told me. They said that all the 8 series receivers would.

120@20@14'
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post #84 of 3041 Old 10-27-2006, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colleycol View Post

Can any of these receivers do bass management over the HDMI input?

Sound quality is subjective, and read the first post again for your answer.
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post #85 of 3041 Old 10-28-2006, 02:46 AM
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Boo!
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post #86 of 3041 Old 10-28-2006, 09:50 AM
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How about the Sony STR-DG1000 ???

I do not see LPCM anywhere in the book. It claims to be Blu Ray compatible which means ?

Also I heard of some possible video problems. Anybody has any details ?
It does HDMI audio processing ( I tested that), and video up scale to HDMI ( did not test it).

Thanks
Nick
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post #87 of 3041 Old 10-28-2006, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriuslyCold View Post

come to think of it, DD could release a DD True HD 1.0, and and DTS Master 1.0, then we'd really be up sh*t creek

That won't be for a few years. Look what Dolby did with PLII and then PLIIx...
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post #88 of 3041 Old 10-28-2006, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cecaa850 View Post

Side note, I called Pioneer and all of the 8(x)TSXI series receivers support 7.1 audio over HDMI. (Yes I'm in the market )

but the 81 mentioned by the other poster is a TXV. Wonder if they support this as well.
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post #89 of 3041 Old 10-28-2006, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLidlessEye View Post

but the 81 mentioned by the other poster is a TXV. Wonder if they support this as well.

Well, if you really want to get picky 8(x)TXSi could only refer to the 84. The 82 only has a TXS after it.
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post #90 of 3041 Old 10-28-2006, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clangro View Post

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, there was a receiver available today using HDMI 1.3.

Will the receiver be able to process HDMI 1.3 and then send the pure video signal to a TV that doesn't use HDMI 1.3?

Basically, I have a Mits WD-52628 that I don't plan on replacing until it dies outside of warranty (about 3 years). That being said, I'm wondering if I waited and bought a receiver that can do TrueDolby 7.1 via HDMI 1.3 if it will spaz out trying to send out to my old TV.

I have no stereo system as it stands right now and don't want to spend a year waiting for a product that won't even be compatible.

Assuming the video display has HDMI but a lower compliance level than 1.3 such as 1.1..
Within HDMI is an electronic info packet called EDID, this info is exchanged between the connected HDMI components during Turn-On.. Each HDMI component confirms what each respective spec handling capability is, so that the source player sends signals only up to what the display can handle..
As an example...
If the source player had 1.3 (deep colors)and the display is 1.1, the source player would only send audio & video signal within 1.1 and what teh dsiplay has confirmed it can handle.

Keep in mind...
Under each section within the HDMI standards (by respective versions) for audio and video specs, because a component is 1.1 does not mean it has all of the 1.1 capabilities..
Example...
Source player can send 5.1 Dolby Digital audio but the display can only handle 2.0 PCM audio..

Hope that clears up some of the confusion..
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