5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 31 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #901 of 3041 Old 12-23-2006, 03:06 PM
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To be honest, we really shouldn't be hogging this thread with LFE discussions, when there's a thread dedicated to it in the audio theory section...
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post #902 of 3041 Old 12-23-2006, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamin View Post

krabapple--

clear sub channel
Reduce LFE by 5 db and add to sub channel
For chan = 1 to 6
reduce by 15 db
add to sub channel
Next chan
Filter sub channel
Spit out sub channel

analog Gain up sub channel by 15 db

See figure 3-2 in the referenced Dolby PDF
Dolby Digital Professional Encoding Guidelines

Fantastic, thanks.


Quote:


The level reductions must be taken before all of the additions to assure no clipping during the addition process.

The lead post in this thread references KMO's thread here which references the Dolby PDF.


My bad for missing that.
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post #903 of 3041 Old 12-23-2006, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post

Just to clarify terminology: the LFE isn't reduced 10dB by the player. The recording has LFE calibrated to be played 10dB louder than the other channels. It can still be full-scale, which would mean a sound 10dB louder than the mains can be.

This calibration gives the effect of it seeming to be 10dB quieter than the mains, if played back at equal gain, instead of receiving the expected 10dB boost.

I never said LFE was reduced -10dB by the player; I understood that the initial LFE difference wrt other channels is 'hard coded' in the DVD soundtrack, and not due to the player.

Quote:


What does it matter? They have the same result, and it's all done inside the player. There's no way of observing the difference.

Well, it appears that Dolby specifies doing it the first way, not the second way.
I simply wondered if that is because doing it the second way means possible digital ('internal') overload...i.e, because they *wouldn't* have the same result.


Quote:


Another pointless question - it's all happening inside the receiver, so there's no way of observing it. They can do whatever they want to give themselves extra headroom. But in practice, I suspect a similar -5dB adjustment will be happening, and it will automatically boost the subwoofer amplifier gain by 5dB to hide it. But how would you tell?

If the -5dB was only there to protect the analog signal between player and AVR from distortion, then it would be pointless to apply it if all adjustments and BM were done in the receiver. But from the Dolby diagram it appears to be always necessary whenever there is BM, and is applied in the digital realm prior to analog amplification of the sub channel and final output to the sub. So yes, now I expect it would happen in the AVR too.
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post #904 of 3041 Old 12-23-2006, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMO View Post

To be honest, we really shouldn't be hogging this thread with LFE discussions, when there's a thread dedicated to it in the audio theory section...


I'm all for having it moved to that thread... or the useful information redacted and inlcuded as information in the top post of that thread.
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post #905 of 3041 Old 12-25-2006, 02:45 AM
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So, does the Onkyo SR-604 allow level adjustments, bass management, etc. to multichannel LPCM over HDMI or not? According to this thread, it sounds like it does. I'd like to get clarification on this before I decide to buy it.

I was looking through the manual, and on page 62 there is a chart showing what modes work with each input type. As was said before, it does not apply special processing such as PLIIX, the DSP modes, etc. to either analog or digital multichannel inputs, but there is a check mark for the modes "Direct" and "Multich" with these inputs.

In the explanations for the listening modes, "Direct" is apparently out, since that applies "minimal processing. In this mode, all of the source's audio channels are output as they are." I'd take that to mean that it won't apply level adjustment, bass management, etc. when in that mode.

It doesn't say in the manual what the "Multich" mode does. So, it's possible that it may do the adjustments when that is selected. Why would there be two different listening modes if they both pass the audio unchanged?
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post #906 of 3041 Old 12-25-2006, 01:07 PM
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EDIT: After reading more of the thread, I realized my question was unanswerable in a factual sense
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post #907 of 3041 Old 12-25-2006, 09:56 PM
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i have klipsch synergy speakers on an onkyo 503, how would the speakers pair with the Panasonic XR57?

I bought a samsung hl s6167w and am adding an oppo981, now i feel i must buy a digital reciever.

thanks for any input.

46 and 2 are just ahead of me.
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post #908 of 3041 Old 12-26-2006, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirDrexl View Post

So, does the Onkyo SR-604 allow level adjustments, bass management, etc. to multichannel LPCM over HDMI or not? According to , it sounds like it does. I'd like to get clarification on this before I decide to buy it.

I was looking through the manual, and on page 62 there is a chart showing what modes work with each input type. As was said before, it does not apply special processing such as PLIIX, the DSP modes, etc. to either analog or digital multichannel inputs, but there is a check mark for the modes "Direct" and "Multich" with these inputs.

In the explanations for the listening modes, "Direct" is apparently out, since that applies "minimal processing. In this mode, all of the source's audio channels are output as they are." I'd take that to mean that it won't apply level adjustment, bass management, etc. when in that mode.

It doesn't say in the manual what the "Multich" mode does. So, it's possible that it may do the adjustments when that is selected. Why would there be two different listening modes if they both pass the audio unchanged?

I'd like to know this as well as the same info for the 674 and the Sony STRDG1000. Can these receivers really not do any kind of EQ with the HDMI PCM sources? If so does anyone know the technical limitation that is stopping them from doing so?
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post #909 of 3041 Old 12-26-2006, 07:10 PM
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Been reading through this thread for a while and have a simple question. Well, 2 questions.

Currently have an Oppo971 and the SA8300HD. Since the Oppo does a wonderful job upconverting, would I even need the Onkyo TX-SR674 upconversion capabilities? Would these be beneficial if I had a gaming console that was not HD?

OK 3 questions...

Since I do not need video upconversion, would the Onkyo TX-SR604 work just fine with what I have and a future HD DVD player?

Thanks!

JD

"Listen to advice and accept instruction, and in the end you will be wise." Proverbs 19:20
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post #910 of 3041 Old 12-26-2006, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedurocher View Post

Been reading through this thread for a while and have a simple question. Well, 2 questions.

Currently have an Oppo971 and the SA8300HD. Since the Oppo does a wonderful job upconverting, would I even need the Onkyo TX-SR674 upconversion capabilities? Would these be beneficial if I had a gaming console that was not HD?

OK 3 questions...

Since I do not need video upconversion, would the Onkyo TX-SR604 work just fine with what I have and a future HD DVD player?

Thanks!

Here is the answer for all the 3 questions you had (I think this has been repeated so many times):

HDMI upconversion in SR674 does not change the resolution of the video signal. It is meant to transcode video signals input via composite video, s-video and component video input to output from HDMI out connection.

Signal up-converted to HDMI are output at the resolution at which they are input, It does however deinterlace 480i to 480p. It also means that you can just run one cable to the TV (HDMI output), even if your components are connected to SR674 using different type of connections (HDMI, component, s-video and composite video).

SR604 does not have HDMI upconversion feature, so you will need to run an extra cable to the TV.
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post #911 of 3041 Old 12-26-2006, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axs View Post

Here is the answer for all the 3 questions you had (I think this has been repeated so many times):

HDMI upconversion in SR674 does not change the resolution of the video signal. It is meant to transcode video signals input via composite video, s-video and component video input to output from HDMI out connection.

Signal up-converted to HDMI are output at the resolution at which they are input, It does however deinterlace 480i to 480p. It also means that you can just run one cable to the TV (HDMI output), even if your components are connected to SR674 using different type of connections (HDMI, component, s-video and composite video).

SR604 does not have HDMI upconversion feature, so you will need to run an extra cable to the TV.

Thanks for the quick reply and humoring me on this one, AXS. So if I do not intend to use more HDMI connections than provided, the 604 is good? If I bought both Blue Ray and HD DVD and still had the SA8300HD, I would have to get the 674 to upconvert the SA8300HD component to HDMI so I would only need one cable? I could also get the 674 for the VLSC feature if I so chose to? Otherwise, I can, as suggested, get the 604 and a HDMI switch from monoprice.

Thanks again for all your help.

JD

"Listen to advice and accept instruction, and in the end you will be wise." Proverbs 19:20
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post #912 of 3041 Old 12-26-2006, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedurocher View Post

So if I do not intend to use more HDMI connections than provided, the 604 is good?

Both SR604 and SR674 have 2 HDMI in and 1 HDMI out, so it will not matter on this account. What SR674 gives you is, if you have non-HDMI component, you can still have just one cable connected to the TV and you will not need to change input source on the TV as everything will be output using HDMI out connection of the receiver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedurocher View Post

If I bought both Blue Ray and HD DVD and still had the SA8300HD, I would have to get the 674 to upconvert the SA8300HD component to HDMI so I would only need one cable?

That is correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedurocher View Post

I could also get the 674 for the VLSC feature if I so chose to? Otherwise, I can, as suggested, get the 604 and a HDMI switch from monoprice.

Thanks again for all your help.

HDMI switch will be needed only if you have more than 2 HDMI components and it will work with both SR604 and SR674. If you have non-HDMI components, you will still need to run extra cable to the TV with SR604.
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post #913 of 3041 Old 12-26-2006, 11:41 PM
 
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Great thread, lots of redundancy, I suggest everyone read the first few pages and re-read the first post.

Few comments, on 192khz, true no practical application in 6 channel audio, not sure why people are suggesting Blu-ray specs call for 192khz in 6 to 8 channels, it's a capability not a requirement. As far as true 192khz processing, even the most expensive pre/pro's do the mixing in multichannels@96khz and then upconvert. Whether you hear the difference or not depends on numerous factors, and it would help if you had above normal hearing. With that said, there are examples of excellent 2-channel stereo 192khz recordings that sound amazing. Hotel Califorina DVD-A is one example, far and few, but I personally prefer this 2 channel mix@192Khz as opposed to the multichannel mix.

As far as the PS3 goes, I've noticed with the Pioneer elite 74, it would still report channels being active with LPCM via HDMI that were not active in direct mode, however enabling 7.1 PLIIx matrixing clearly adds sound to these rear channels.

It's my understanding that with the PS3, the Pioneer elite 8x series is not reporting thru auto detect via HDMI that it supports 5.1/7.1 @176khz or 192Khz, but is reporting support for 5.1/7.1@96khz, is that correct?

On another note, for those wondering why the update with Pioneer is done at a service center, it's because it uses a proprietary interface for the DSP/HDMI/Firmware upgrade. If Pioneer has committed to correcting the LFE as some have reported, I expect that they will. I will look into confirming this, as I just parted with the 74 today in hopes to get 1080p support for video. (What would be ideal would be to split an HDMI signal from a player and send one to the receiver for LPCM audio, and one to the display for per input ISF video calibration..switching is overrated...anyone else though about doing this?)

And just to emphasize what others have already stated, selecting and HDMI receiver based on version #s is a BAD IDEA. My example, HDMI 1.1 has the capability to support 1080p video, yet the Pioneer Elite 7x series they choose to enable 1080i pass thru via HDMI (1.1). Which has left me with yet another reason to upgrade the receiver which was just being used as a Pre/Pro.

I find myself considering the Denon's now. I would be interested to hear if "Denon Link" and Pioneer's "iLink" are compatible. If I am not mistaken, they should both be firewire connections, so one should be able to pair an Pioneer iLink transport with a Denon Link receiver.
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post #914 of 3041 Old 12-27-2006, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axs View Post

Both SR604 and SR674 have 2 HDMI in and 1 HDMI out, so it will not matter on this account. What SR674 gives you is, if you have non-HDMI component, you can still have just one cable connected to the TV and you will not need to change input source on the TV as everything will be output using HDMI out connection of the receiver.


That is correct.


HDMI switch will be needed only if you have more than 2 HDMI components and it will work with both SR604 and SR674. If you have non-HDMI components, you will still need to run extra cable to the TV with SR604.

Thanks again, AXS. That allows me to focus my search and really spec out what I want to do in the future.

JD

"Listen to advice and accept instruction, and in the end you will be wise." Proverbs 19:20
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post #915 of 3041 Old 12-27-2006, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Haghighi View Post

would be interested to hear if "Denon Link" and Pioneer's "iLink" are compatible.

AFAIK they are different animals. However, to Denon's credit their receivers with DenonLink usually also have an iLink connection

Boo!
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post #916 of 3041 Old 12-27-2006, 06:01 AM
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hi guys new so be kind please--anyways if i buy the panasonic sa-xr700 amp
could i connect up my blu-ray player and hd-dvd player to the 2 hdmi plugs on the amp----would it give me lpcmfor the blu-ray player and truehd for my hd-dvd
player---with the blu-ray player could i get my rear back channel working this way-ie decsent blu-ray is 6.1 would i get this from this amp-----also does this amp
decode dolby ex and pllx surround----thanks for any help--or how many
optical or coauxil connections does this have as well please---thanks all as you will read from my post i am a newbie so please be nice thanks
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post #917 of 3041 Old 12-27-2006, 07:00 AM
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Hi guys, i am also new, im confused about the JVC 412b, it has the hdmi, and upconversion as well as the 7.1 and PC connection via usb....is there any issue that would prevent me from buying this? "future proof" issues, etc. pls advise
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post #918 of 3041 Old 12-27-2006, 07:31 AM
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Hey guys/gals,

Does anyone have the Onkyo 674 receiver mated with a PS3? I would like to know if the 674 (heck even if the 604) will allow the following:

pass 1080p via HDMI
allow 7.1 LPCM over HDMI? (allow you to matrix 5.1 into 7.1)
no -10 bass issue

Thanks!
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post #919 of 3041 Old 12-27-2006, 09:12 AM
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Wow this is a very informative post that I am glad I read. From what I have gathered from this post, then Denon 2307CI (or 887, they are the same right?) seems to be the best overall "future proof" level 6 reciever(sound quality, features, bang for buck)?. Would you all agree with this statement?
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post #920 of 3041 Old 12-27-2006, 09:30 AM
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Onkyo 604 vs 647 - worth spending extra $170?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Gang,

Now that I have added the PS3 to my home entertainment experience, Im wanting to upgrade my receiver and have narrowed my decision down to the above 2 models.

Heres what I have at home:

Sony 65 RPTV with DVI and component inputs
PS3
XBox 360
Wii
Toshiba XA-1
Motorola HD DVR (Comcast)

Now, the Sony has a single DVI connection and multiple component inputs.

Is it worth it in my case to spend the extra $170 for the 647 so I can connect everything but the Motorola to the 647 and just run a single HDMI to DVI cable to the Sony? or should I save the $170 and have a component out from the 604 for the 360 and Wii and have a single HDMI to DVI out for the PS3 and the XA-1?

Thanks!
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post #921 of 3041 Old 12-27-2006, 09:31 AM
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DMB,

Im not too sure about the 2807CI being the best overall right now. I think that distinction may go to the Onky 604 or 647.
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post #922 of 3041 Old 12-27-2006, 10:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriuslyCold View Post

AFAIK they are different animals. However, to Denon's credit their receivers with DenonLink usually also have an iLink connection


Hmm, so I wouldn't be able to plug in a Pioneer 79avi via it's iLink connection to the Denon unless it has an iLink input...so what is DenonLink? It's not an IEEE 1394 port?
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post #923 of 3041 Old 12-27-2006, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


What would be ideal would be to split an HDMI signal from a player and send one to the receiver for LPCM audio, and one to the display for per input ISF video calibration..switching is overrated...anyone else though about doing this?

Yes, this is what I can't stand about HDMI. The audio and video shouldn't be bundled together because of the way our current display devices work. Picture settings are based on input. However, you'll notice that higher end displays (notably projectors) tend to have picture settings that are selectable by memory slots, not by inputs. In an ideal world, all display devices would function this way, and audio and video in one cable (HDMI) wouldn't be a problem. BTW, I believe Gefen has HDMI splitters.
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post #924 of 3041 Old 12-27-2006, 11:09 AM
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Does the Denon AVR-887 have everything you would want in a "future-proof" receiver, like the LFE correction, etc.?
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post #925 of 3041 Old 12-27-2006, 11:23 AM
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Lindahl, ,
You listed "future proof" receivers, but you didn't have the JVC's on that list is that because you don't know of their capabilities or that they just aren't future proof?

Is the value worth it to buy the jvc 412b?
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post #926 of 3041 Old 12-27-2006, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkwon View Post

You listed "future proof" receivers, but you didn't have the JVC's on that list is that because you don't know of their capabilities or that they just aren't future proof?

Data not provided.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkwon View Post

Is the value worth it to buy the jvc 412b?

Not from a SQ perspective, hence why we don't have any data on it (not enough interest).
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post #927 of 3041 Old 12-27-2006, 10:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

Yes, this is what I can't stand about HDMI. The audio and video shouldn't be bundled together because of the way our current display devices work. Picture settings are based on input. However, you'll notice that higher end displays (notably projectors) tend to have picture settings that are selectable by memory slots, not by inputs. In an ideal world, all display devices would function this way, and audio and video in one cable (HDMI) wouldn't be a problem. BTW, I believe Gefen has HDMI splitters.


I've had three unanswered posts on the Gefen forums to ask if audio is mirrored on their splitters, if it does support video/audio mirroring, then that would solve the ISF calibration per input problem.

What would be even better is if the advanced audio codecs could be carried via iLink. Don't know why TrueHD should be any different in this respect as compared to DVD-Audio. DTS HD MA, well, perhaps they won't allow it. But at CES 2006, Pioneer had DTS HD MA running through firewire, it wasn't "in spec" so it was canned. I am hoping Pioneer has made some progress convincing Dolby, DTS, and the MPAA to allow audio to be carried over firewire. That would be something to wait for...
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post #928 of 3041 Old 12-28-2006, 07:08 AM
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I wish you were right, but I strongly suspect firewire is dead. New Pioneer and Yamaha dvdi players that previously had it no longer include it, so I think its dead.
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post #929 of 3041 Old 12-28-2006, 08:52 AM
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Just asking this since it came up in another thread but has anyone ever gotten the Denon 3806 to accept 7.1 channels of PCM audio over HDMI? I know that someone mentioned about two months ago that several Denon AV receivers could accept 7.1 channels of PCM audio over HDMI but personally the only Denon AV receiver that I know of that can accept 7.1 channels of PCM audio is the Denon 2307CI.
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post #930 of 3041 Old 12-28-2006, 09:24 AM
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ONKYO 604 Owners. Can the 604 pass audio via HDMI or is it just a Video Pass-Through Receiver?
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